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No real viable ranged weapon as Guardian


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#1 Trumiaen

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 02:23 PM

I think it's safe to say that every class has a viable choice between melee and ranged except for Guardians. After playing well over 50 hours of guardian PvP I have come to the conclusion that we are bound to go melee.

We got a staff which is purely awesome, although its range is ridicules and cannot really be marked as a ranged weapon option in my eyes.
The other choice is a Scepter, which has great range and nice utility, and I can see how it can be useful (immobilize (3) + nuke (2)), but what makes it really really bad in my opinion is the sole reason that the auto attack is ridiculously slow and easy to avoid since it doesn't "hone" the target that well when above the 600 range. You can actually walk away from the orbs, no dodge roll needed. Not to even mention that they even NERFED the damage on the auto attacks!

This is really upsetting me since I'd like to have a ranged option and not be bound to go melee for the rest of my life as a Guardian, although I don't see Anet changing anything in this area anytime soon, if ever :(

I just felt so retarded in WvW when I saw warriors \ rangers with awesome longbows, even thief has a good ranged arsenal, and I was sitting there spamming auto attacks like a retard, waiting for my bubbles to run off cool down, not to mention how.. bad? it feels when you shoot those stupid orbs.

Does anyone feel the same or is it just me?
I wish Spear was on land. I love spears and I love the spear skills :(

Edited by Trumiaen, 16 August 2012 - 02:27 PM.


#2 Akula

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 02:49 PM

Can only agree with this. Every other profession has a rather useful ranged option, except Guardians. Instead of giving us a very fast projectile or something instantly hitting, we get an orb moving at the speed of a Horker from Skyrim. In the last stresstest I was even able to outrun the projectile without any swiftness.

Just give us pistols firing blue flame bullets for all I care.

Edited by Akula, 16 August 2012 - 02:49 PM.


#3 Zerikin Loukbel

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 02:51 PM

This is the main reason I am not going guardian. It has been issue since BWE1 and they have not addressed it.

#4 Arth

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 02:53 PM

Very disappointed in our "ranged" or lack there of options so far.

Edited by Arth, 16 August 2012 - 02:54 PM.


#5 Mr_Finesse

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 03:05 PM

They basically just need to change up the #1 skill on the staff, right?  Seems like it needs to be a 1200 ranged skill in order really help with the lack of range issue.  Do you guys think that would immediately solve the issue?

#6 Zerikin Loukbel

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 03:25 PM

The are not going to make staff the 1200 range weapon for guardians. They need to fix the scepter by doing the following.

1. Orb speed needs to be increased to the same speed as arrows.
2. Make smite work like a normal AE instead of the fist projectiles.

#7 GnomGnomGnom

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 03:26 PM

View PostZerikin Loukbel, on 16 August 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

This is the main reason I am not going guardian. It has been issue since BWE1 and they have not addressed it.
This is really the real reason turning me off the class, but I am going to go with Guardian anyways. I was actually testing out the warrior in the last stress test (yesterday) to see how REAL ranged weapons work out and needless to say it is far and above what the guardian has.

This is made worst by the fact that the guardian does not really have a weapon that gives swiftness (except stave) and have to rely on sacrificing a utility skill to catch up if someone pops swiftness and runs/kites you. The gap closers are good but they are just not enough. The other side of the coin is that unless you have a swiftness utility you will have lots of trouble running out of a fight if it gets sticky.

Of course, these issues are lessened by the fact that the guardian has good staying power and point protection. If this is Anet's design then fine but this just so meh. It is possible to be anything yes but some things each class does (like the ranged/swiftness weapon case) are just so... non-streamlined.

Id really like a longbow with fast projectiles and a swiftness buff. That would fix most of the guardian's issues.

1. shot
2. template over area that explodes for direct damage after 2 seconds
3. something that gives a condition. immobilize?
4. swiftness and might group buff
5. absorb projectile wall that heals for each projectile

Edited by GnomGnomGnom, 16 August 2012 - 03:40 PM.


#8 wowzers5

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 03:27 PM

View PostMr_Finesse, on 16 August 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

They basically just need to change up the #1 skill on the staff, right?  Seems like it needs to be a 1200 ranged skill in order really help with the lack of range issue.  Do you guys think that would immediately solve the issue?

I think you mean scepter. And while range is an issue, the bigger issue is that you can pretty much run faster than the orbs. They are that slow.

#9 roachsrealm

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 03:56 PM

I agree.  I never felt like I was effective at range at all, and that first staff skill pulled more than it was worth when fighting individual mobs.  It's a monster magnet.

My best ranged weapon as a guardian was someone else playing Mesmer.  That is the best speed bump a guardian can ask for.

#10 Branwulf

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:00 PM

It would be nice if they just added the shortbow to the Guardian or something just to give us something to use in WvWvW other than sitting on the walls doing * all, even less * all with the recent support nerfs.

#11 Zarffa

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:00 PM

Guys guys guys, wouldn't it be awesome if the Guardian got a throwing spear? Nnnngh, it would be like old school paragon days! One can dream...

#12 roachsrealm

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:04 PM

I just want a land-spear that has leaping abilities.  If there was ever a profession that begged to pretend to be a Dragoon, Guardian is it.

#13 Alaroxr

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:15 PM

I was going to make a thread on this as well.

The problem is that ArenaNet designed the Guardian without a ranged weapon (for some reason). The Staff has been a 600 range, and the Scepter was our 900 range kiting weapon. Only recently they decided to change the Scepter to counter this...

View PostAkula, on 16 August 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

Instead of giving us a very fast projectile or something instantly hitting, we get an orb moving at the speed of a Horker from Skyrim.

Actually, those Horkers are probably faster if you piss them off.

Edited by Alaroxr, 16 August 2012 - 04:23 PM.


#14 Zarffa

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:17 PM

View Postroachsrealm, on 16 August 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

I just want a land-spear that has leaping abilities.  If there was ever a profession that begged to pretend to be a Dragoon, Guardian is it.

...but dragoons were just cavalry. I was thinking more 300 Spartans and Roman soldiers. Throw a spear, then switch to sword/shield and rush in. Paragon like... Besides, blinking with a longsword is so boss. Leaping less boss. haha

#15 Cevilo

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:26 PM

yeah this is a big issue I'm running into as well. the only logical reason I can see if because a skilled player can easily use abilities sanctuary to knock back and keep enemies back and use a worth while ranged weapon to kill people, if played smart Guardians have a lot of area denial that can make make kiting less of an issue.

View PostiToasterHD, on 16 August 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

...but dragoons were just cavalry. I was thinking more 300 Spartans and Roman soldiers. Throw a spear, then switch to sword/shield and rush in. Paragon like... Besides, blinking with a longsword is so boss. Leaping less boss. haha

I believe when people say "Dragoon" they are thinking/referring to the Final Fantasy type or the "Dragon knight" sort of class, not what it really is.

#16 Jobuu

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:26 PM

scepter auto attack needs to be a blue comet-shaped projectile and faster for sure. the range is fine. the staff auto attack range should be 900 if not 750 (split the difference) and the cone should be reduced so it's about the size of the fire breath IMO

edit - also, the AOE scepter fist thing is weak. the circle is too small and the graphics are crap

Edited by Jobuu, 16 August 2012 - 04:28 PM.


#17 roachsrealm

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:31 PM

View PostCevilo, on 16 August 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

I believe when people say "Dragoon" they are thinking/referring to the Final Fantasy type or the "Dragon knight" sort of class, not what it really is.

Yes, this.  I am not a huge martial history buff, but I know all of Kain's lines from FFIV.  We pick our disciplines...

#18 Umie

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:38 PM

even though the spear sounds like a great idea, it cant be a ranged option. we already have the sword to teleport around with. i really like the ranged options for the guardian. unlike some other profs, our ranged options (staff and scepter) bring tons of utility to the table.

Edited by Umie, 16 August 2012 - 04:39 PM.


#19 Zarffa

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:46 PM

View PostCevilo, on 16 August 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

yeah this is a big issue I'm running into as well. the only logical reason I can see if because a skilled player can easily use abilities sanctuary to knock back and keep enemies back and use a worth while ranged weapon to kill people, if played smart Guardians have a lot of area denial that can make make kiting less of an issue.

I think you raise an incredibly valid point. I think everyone needs to reread your post. You are probably exactly right. The Guardian's area denial is far too strong to warrant having a good ranged option. Wow, that is exactly it. Kudos, bro!

Edited by iToasterHD, 16 August 2012 - 04:49 PM.


#20 Umie

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:49 PM

he's just stating something that is blatantly obvious...it's common sense really.

#21 Draxas

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:50 PM

View PostUmie, on 16 August 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

even though the spear sounds like a great idea, it cant be a ranged option. we already have the sword to teleport around with. i really like the ranged options for the guardian. unlike some other profs, our ranged options (staff and scepter) bring tons of utility to the table.

I can see how this statement is true with the staff, but scepter?  A 20s cooldown 2s immobilize and 2 utterly garbage, non-viable damage skills is hardly "tons of utility".  And the staff gives up a lot of damage potential for that utility.

#22 Alaroxr

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:51 PM

View PostUmie, on 16 August 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

even though the spear sounds like a great idea, it cant be a ranged option. we already have the sword to teleport around with. i really like the ranged options for the guardian. unlike some other profs, our ranged options (staff and scepter) bring tons of utility to the table.

It's not about the Staff's utility, it's about the fact that we struggle to fight at around a 1200 range. So much for utility when the enemy can stand at 1200 range and be immortal against you, while they continuously pound your face in. Plus, when you use all of that Utility on the Staff and and everything is off cooldown, are you just going to stand there while everyone else can hit enemies?

--------------

If the Staff had a 1200 range auto-attack it would be perfect. When using the Staff in a 1200 range fight you have to stop using your auto-attack, use Orb of Light every 3s and not explode it (and hope that it somehow hits an enemy), and the other three skills are situational. In a 1200 range fight it's no more than an additional slot of 3 Utility skills.

Edited by Alaroxr, 16 August 2012 - 04:57 PM.


#23 Draxas

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:56 PM

View PostiToasterHD, on 16 August 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

I think you raise an incredibly valid point. I think everyone needs to reread your post. You are probably exactly right. The Guardian's area denial is far too strong to warrant having a good ranged option. Wow, that is exactly it. Kudos, bro!

Is this sarcasm?  I think it might be, but if it's not, I want to point out how wrong this way of thinking is.  That being, "We can't let Guardian have a viable ranged weapon because of a 6s duration 120s cooldown utility that they may, or may not take".  Also, there is this thing called terrain, that would prove helpful against someone playing an area denial game.

#24 Zarffa

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:58 PM

View PostUmie, on 16 August 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

he's just stating something that is blatantly obvious...it's common sense really.

Well, sunshine, it wasn't obvious to me.

Then the next question is, why are we discussing this then? You can't have both. Obviously. You roll a Guardian you roll without ranged.


View PostDraxas, on 16 August 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

Is this sarcasm?  I think it might be, but if it's not, I want to point out how wrong this way of thinking is.  That being, "We can't let Guardian have a viable ranged weapon because of a 6s duration 120s cooldown utility that they may, or may not take".  Also, there is this thing called terrain, that would prove helpful against someone playing an area denial game.

It wasn't sarcasm, I really never occured to me. However, I do wonder (assuming the Guardian does have effective area denial) why no one seems to understand that this is in all fairness a very good reason to not have effective ranged options. This "6s duration 120s cooldown" probably only refers to one skill of the many area denail skills the Guardian has.

Edited by iToasterHD, 16 August 2012 - 05:00 PM.


#25 Alaroxr

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:00 PM

View PostDraxas, on 16 August 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

Is this sarcasm?  I think it might be, but if it's not, I want to point out how wrong this way of thinking is.  That being, "We can't let Guardian have a viable ranged weapon because of a 6s duration 120s cooldown utility that they may, or may not take".  Also, there is this thing called terrain, that would prove helpful against someone playing an area denial game.

Sums up my thoughts as well.

Plus, we already know ArenaNet wants to give us 1200 range viability, Jon Peters has already indicated this multiple times throughout the beta process.

I just hope they didn't give up.

View PostiToasterHD, on 16 August 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

I think you raise an incredibly valid point. I think everyone needs to reread your post. You are probably exactly right. The Guardian's area denial is far too strong to warrant having a good ranged option. Wow, that is exactly it. Kudos, bro!

In addition to what the other guys said, you can still be attacked through Sanctuary by almost every attack in the game.

Regarding other area denial abilities, the enemy can simply use their ranged weapons. And there's not much of a difference between the Guardian and another Profession throwing out immobilize and cripple.

Edited by Alaroxr, 16 August 2012 - 05:04 PM.


#26 Draxas

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:00 PM

View PostUmie, on 16 August 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

he's just stating something that is blatantly obvious...it's common sense really.

The only thing that is blatantly obvious about that statement is him not understanding one of the core design philosophies of the game, which is every single profession being able to fulfill different roles, including ranged and melee at the same level of viability.

#27 Zarffa

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:04 PM

View PostDraxas, on 16 August 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

The only thing that is blatantly obvious about that statement is him not understanding one of the core design philosophies of the game, which is every single profession being able to fulfill different roles, including ranged and melee at the same level of viability.

Is this true? I always thought when they said fulfill different roles I thought they meant damage, support and control. Or whatever their new trinity is. I don't recall ArenaNet ever saying that every profession can be melee and ranged. If that were true, one could argue that the Necro's Axe and the Ele's daggers and especially the Mesmer's great sword are hardly melee. The Guardian has ranged options, they are clearly not superior to the melee, but they are there nonetheless.

I think I am going to head out. This is starting to sound like complaining to me.

Edited by iToasterHD, 16 August 2012 - 05:05 PM.


#28 Tomalak2

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:07 PM

View PostDraxas, on 16 August 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

The only thing that is blatantly obvious about that statement is him not understanding one of the core design philosophies of the game, which is every single profession being able to fulfill different roles, including ranged and melee at the same level of viability.

If you really know how to do that, without making classes basically the same, I suggest you start your own development team, since in all the history of MMOs, no one ever did that. Nor will (IMO).

#29 Umie

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:15 PM

View PostDraxas, on 16 August 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

I can see how this statement is true with the staff, but scepter?  A 20s cooldown 2s immobilize and 2 utterly garbage, non-viable damage skills is hardly "tons of utility".  And the staff gives up a lot of damage potential for that utility.

uh a 2-second immobilize (with a little vulnerability) is a game changer. you can save your own ass with it, or use it to focus and burst down an opponent.

View PostDraxas, on 16 August 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

The only thing that is blatantly obvious about that statement is him not understanding one of the core design philosophies of the game, which is every single profession being able to fulfill different roles, including ranged and melee at the same level of viability.

except that guardian is viable at range. it's called medium range. you dont have to be "viable" at 1200.

Edited by Umie, 16 August 2012 - 05:15 PM.


#30 Draxas

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:18 PM

View PostTomalak2, on 16 August 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

If you really know how to do that, without making classes basically the same, I suggest you start your own development team, since in all the history of MMOs, no one ever did that. Nor will (IMO).
Take a look at the Warrior class in this very game.  History, made.  You can go Rifle and be just as effective overall as a longbow ranger.  I think you do a bit less damage in return for being tougher than they, for example.  I use Warrior as this specific example because they are our fellow soldiers, at a similar level of survivability potential.

View PostiToasterHD, on 16 August 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

Is this true? I always thought when they said fulfill different roles I thought they meant damage, support and control. Or whatever their new trinity is. I don't recall ArenaNet ever saying that every profession can be melee and ranged. If that were true, one could argue that the Necro's Axe and the Ele's daggers and especially the Mesmer's great sword are hardly melee. The Guardian has ranged options, they are clearly not superior to the melee, but they are there nonetheless.

I think I am going to head out. This is starting to sound like complaining to me.
Ele's daggers are 300 range on most attacks, about twice that of melee, so they might as well be.  It also happens to be their best weapon set right now.  Mesmers have sword which has been considered one of their top weapons for a while.  Necros have daggers which have been lackluster but just got a buff.  Engineers have bombs, and their rifle is like a ranged/melee hybrid.

As far the design intent, I will try and dig around for a specific quote.  I'm 100% sure that having viable melee and ranged options for everyone was always the plan though, and I remember this being stated.  It's kind of self-evident if you look at every class but Guardian.

Edited by Draxas, 16 August 2012 - 05:19 PM.





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