301 replies to this topic

[SirGamesalot]

I actually like it! I always play mele in games, so it doesn't really bother me that we are so bad at ranged. Kind of a bummer in wvwvw though.

[indure]

Alaroxr, on 16 August 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Sums up my thoughts as well.

Plus, we already know ArenaNet wants to give us 1200 range viability, Jon Peters has already indicated this multiple times throughout the beta process.

I just hope they didn't give up.

In addition to what the other guys said, you can still be attacked through Sanctuary by almost every attack in the game.

Regarding other area denial abilities, the enemy can simply use their ranged weapons. And there's not much of a difference between the Guardian and another Profession throwing out immobilize and cripple.

I honestly believe that Anet doesn't see the lack of range as a problem. They have had months to add it, since it has been one of the strongest suggestions during every Beta and even though the changes could be made very easily and quickly by tweaking our current two range weapons, it has never happened.

I really think there is a portion of Anet developers that believe Guardians don't need range weapons if we give them the utility they need to stay in melee.

I also think we're not going to see competent range weapons until after release and Anet gets hundreds of angry complaints from WvW guardians highlighting that the above is not true.

Edited by indure, 16 August 2012 - 05:21 PM.

[Alaroxr]

indure, on 16 August 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

I honestly believe that Anet doesn't see the lack of range as a problem. They have had months to add it, since it has been one of the strongest suggestions during every Beta and even though the changes could be made very easily and quickly by tweaking our current two range weapons, it has never happened.

I really think there is a portion of Anet developers that believe Guardians don't need range weapons if we give them the utility they need to stay in melee.

I also think we're not going to see competent range weapons until after release and Anet gets hundreds of angry complaints from WvW guardians highlighting that the above is not true.

Jon Peters thinks we should though, and he's the man.

[Umie]

guardians are viable at range. this discussion is ridiculous. giving 1200 range viability to the guardian is plain stupid.

[bloodronin]

^viable at ranged? see others get to use ranged at 900 to 1200, for us to be effective we need to be 600 or closer so yea not viable imo

[Alaroxr]

Umie, on 16 August 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

guardians are viable at range. this discussion is ridiculous. giving 1200 range viability to the guardian is plain stupid.

You've convinced me through your incredibly detailed reasoning.

/sarcasm

By the way, did you just say that they ARE viable, but it's a bad idea to make them viable? Isn't that completely contradictory?

Edited by Alaroxr, 16 August 2012 - 05:25 PM.

[Umie]

the only attack functioning at 600 range is staff's #1. the rest shoot further than that. i would say guardian is viable at 900 range.

[Zarffa]

I will end with this: I can very easily see why Guardians do not need a super effective ranged option. However, I am also very aware that I have not had any experience with WvW nor sPvP. So if you all think that the Guardian, despite the area denial and teleports, still requires an effective ranged option then I am sure ArenaNet will come around to seeing it too. Thus just be patient and either it will happen or the meta will shift to realizing it isn't important.

[Alaroxr]

Umie, on 16 August 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

the only attack functioning at 600 range is staff's #1. the rest shoot further than that. i would say guardian is viable at 900 range.

The Staff is only viable at 600 range, the rest of it's abilities are simply for Utility.

The Scepter can still be sidestepped at 900 range, and can actually be outrun at even 600 range.

-------------

Guardians are viable at 900-1200 range, only if your target is standing still or is an idiot.

Edited by Alaroxr, 16 August 2012 - 05:29 PM.

[Jobuu]

Umie, on 16 August 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

the only attack functioning at 600 range is staff's #1. the rest shoot further than that. i would say guardian is viable at 900 range.

only good at 900 vs. an NPC walking straight at you. any PC will just walk out of the way or will be circle strafing

Edited by Jobuu, 16 August 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[indure]

Alaroxr, on 16 August 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

Jon Peters thinks we should though, and he's the man.

Agreed, he's the man and Anet has taken some small strides to at least be able to say a guardian can potential hit a target at 1200. But these buffs have just been band-aids. They really need to rethink their position on range guardians and come up with actual solutions.

[Darkangelos]

The orbs were moving fast during the stress test yesterday. I did notice that the damage nerf was fairly significant.

[Umie]

i dont think DPS was changed at all considering the orbs were moving significantly faster. if they hit the target faster, they need a direct damage nerf to keep DPS the same.

[Th_ Magic_Bough]

I don't think the bow or rifle really jives with the "magical warrior" that's part of the Guardian class lore.

Of the weapon's that exist now, the warhorn would be the best to repurpose for Guardian main-hand range.  Now doubt you could come up with some really cool animations.  Blasts of the horn summoning spirit animals, beams of light etc. etc.

Edited by Th_ Magic_Bough, 16 August 2012 - 05:52 PM.

[Draxas]

Umie, on 16 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

i dont think DPS was changed at all considering the orbs were moving significantly faster. if they hit the target faster, they need a direct damage nerf to keep DPS the same.

By this logic, they would have to do next to no damage if they were fast enough to hit a majority of the time, like every other ranged weapon in the game.  They were only hitting at 1/10th of the time beyond 600 range, if not less.

Oh and iToaster, I can see how your opinion would be different if you do nothing but PvE, it is probably fine there.  Anytime a target is actually moving and changing directions all the time though, it is often dodged completely by accident just by the normal movement one does in PvP.  If there's a 1 on 1 fight with a Guardian and you have a ranged weapon, you can just leisurely side step back and forth while firing at them and they will not hit you even once.  No dodge roll needed.

[Akula]

Umie, on 16 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

i dont think DPS was changed at all considering the orbs were moving significantly faster. if they hit the target faster, they need a direct damage nerf to keep DPS the same.

I'd be completely fine with this. The problem right now is that the projectiles either do not reach their target or get dodged by simply moving left or right due to its very slow speed.

Usually one-handed ranged weapons have 900 range but also apply a condition like bleeding or burning. A two-handed ranged weapon is mostly set at 1200 range and either applys no condition at all or a short one. Guardians have neither.

[Silinsar]

Making Scepter #1 like Downed skill #1 with 1,200 range would be a nice solution imo.

[Alaroxr]

Tomalak2, on 16 August 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

If you really know how to do that, without making classes basically the same, I suggest you start your own development team, since in all the history of MMOs, no one ever did that. Nor will (IMO).

As a Guardian, I have survival by blocking attacks, having heavy control, and frequently healing myself, in addition to heavy armor.

As a Necromancer, there's plenty of life siphon, ranged kiting abilities, death shroud, and high health pool.

For a Thief, they rely on incredibly mobility and the occasional stealth

------------

As a Guardian, my control is heavily based on area denial and immobilize.

For a Warrior, it will likely be based on knockdowns/cripple.

For an Elementalist, they can apply a multitude of conditions to slow enemies, and lay out plenty of AoEs to force enemies to go around, or take the hits.

------------

As a Guardian, my melee damage is magic based and has more sustained with a few heavy hitting attacks. It also has a number of ground AoE attacks.

As a Warrior, the melee damage is non-magical and more bursty. The AoE is generally non-ground AoE.

As a Thief, the melee damage is about attacking at the right times, and knowing when to avoid damage, when to burst, when to hold off for initiative. There's less AoE and more single target burst.

--------------

I could go into every Profession in control/support/ranged-damage/melee-damage/survival.

Generally, they all are proficient in each area but do so in very, very different ways.

[Cevilo]

Umie, on 16 August 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

he's just stating something that is blatantly obvious...it's common sense really.

common sense if kind of a super power.

Draxas, on 16 August 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

Is this sarcasm?  I think it might be, but if it's not, I want to point out how wrong this way of thinking is.  That being, "We can't let Guardian have a viable ranged weapon because of a 6s duration 120s cooldown utility that they may, or may not take".  Also, there is this thing called terrain, that would prove helpful against someone playing an area denial game.

[Hammer]
Zealots Embrace (1200 range 15 sec recharge time) 2 Immobilize
Ring of Warding (next to no range but great for cutting off choke points and if some one is all ready in melee range they can't get out 40 sec recharge time)

[Staff]
Symbol of Swiftness (8 sec of swiftness to, you know? close the gap between melee and ranged?)

Line of Warding (1200 Range cuts off choke points great for people trying to back peddle and attack you (IE every ranged person I've ever played against that's not kiting left or right 40 second cool down time actually reduced to 40 sec this latest stress test)

[Scepter]
Chains of Light (900 range 2 sec immobilize)

[Utility]
Sanctuary (apparently the only skill on the guardian you know of O.o)

these are just the skills used to control area, not to mention the several Gap closing skills on the weapons the guardian has access to as well. honestly it's plainly obvious you know little to nothing about the guardian, if you're basing their viability around 1 skill used as a hard knock to clear a cap point or attempt to res.

and yes there is a thing called terrain, it's not just used to kite annoying Guardians and there melee only ways, it's used to avoid projectiles. also we have an ability that can flash through terrain to get to a foe, which should be plainly obvious since the most popular weapon seems to be the 1h sword.

Alaroxr, on 16 August 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Sums up my thoughts as well.

Plus, we already know ArenaNet wants to give us 1200 range viability, Jon Peters has already indicated this multiple times throughout the beta process.

I just hope they didn't give up.



In addition to what the other guys said, you can still be attacked through Sanctuary by almost every attack in the game.

Regarding other area denial abilities, the enemy can simply use their ranged weapons. And there's not much of a difference between the Guardian and another Profession throwing out immobilize and cripple.

1. maybe they said that in the past, but I kind of feel the nerf on the range of Pull doesn't support your claims.
2. yeah.. I imagine they could, but correct me if I'm wrong I was under the impression this was talking about fighting not running, so in the instance the warrior busts out with his long bow, if he can't run, due to area denial, this is making my melee attacks less effective how? I'm aware, projectiles can go through some of the area denials. but in an instance of running, if you're opponent can't run past a certain point, their 1200+ ranged attacks eventually become useless because you're to far away (which seems to be the primes of this topic right?) and in my experience of Spvp, especially in situations of getting a cap point, people are rarely willing to leave the cap point so you can't contest the area, putting them in your range for a Gap closer or some sort of Ward any ways.

Draxas, on 16 August 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

The only thing that is blatantly obvious about that statement is him not understanding one of the core design philosophies of the game, which is every single profession being able to fulfill different roles, including ranged and melee at the same level of viability.

No the only thing that is "blatantly obvious" is your lack of knowledge in playing the guardian. or Even Spvp for that matter.  trying to come off with these insults like you know some thing? come on now put your E-peen away for 3 seconds and look at this logically

1. Anet has had several chances to buff the range if they saw it was a legit issue, they would have added more range to there abilities all ready instead of cutting 300 range off of abilities like Pull.

2. If Guardians are so Gimped at Ranged combat why are they one of the most played classes? if they have such an obvious weakness that they can not over come, why is it so many people like using them?
Why are they so widly accused of being "OP"?

the lack of range seems to be a Non issue.

as for the "core philisophies of the game" the guardian can do ranged, they have 2 ranged weapons, they just can do it just not as well as other classes. kind of like "support" I'm sure theives can do support, since it is in the "core design philisophy" I'm still looking for the skills they would use to actually support, aside from "kill stuff" but you know, core designe philosophy. every thing can do every thing.

[Rune100]

Quote

2. If Guardians are so Gimped at Ranged combat why are they one of the most played classes? if they have such an obvious weakness that they can not over come, why is it so many people like using them?
Why are they so widly accused of being "OP"?

Because the whole Crusader/Paladin thing is rather popular.

How does it go again... I saw this many years ago: Healz, Plate and Bubble?

Edited by Rune100, 16 August 2012 - 06:31 PM.

[Alaroxr]

Cevilo, on 16 August 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

the lack of range seems to be a Non issue.

as for the "core philisophies of the game" the guardian can do ranged, they have 2 ranged weapons, they just can do it just not as well as other classes. kind of like "support" I'm sure theives can do support, since it is in the "core design philisophy" I'm still looking for the skills they would use to actually support, aside from "kill stuff" but you know, core designe philosophy. every thing can do every thing.

Not as well is an understatement.

Warrior:



Ranger:



Guardian:



Yay scepter...

--------------------

As for Thief's support... have you see their Venom builds? I would take that any day over a fully support built Guardian, especially in Explorable Mode dungeons (I've played 3). Plus, Stealth is nice.

Edited by Alaroxr, 16 August 2012 - 06:36 PM.

[Draxas]

Cevilo, on 16 August 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Stuff. (snip)

I think you are confused about the point I was trying to make.  I'm not saying that we don't have enough gap closers, or that we are not viable in general.  Actually we are very powerful, I felt very OP with a particular build I made before the changes.  Didn't personally test the changes out because I was playing my Engineer this stress test.  And we certainly do have a lot of control if specced for it.  It was you yourself who said that Guardian would be OP with good ranged because of Sanctuary, so I'm not sure what kind of point you are trying to make.  You are just reacting to some perceived insult that you felt came from me and my "e-peen", when I am just using logic to make an argument for something very reasonable: Guardians having viable ranged combat abilities, like EVERY other class in the game.

Edit: See the videos posted directly above me for the reason why I'm arguing so fervently for a change in Scepter to happen.  It's a pathetic joke of a weapon right now.

Edited by Draxas, 16 August 2012 - 06:44 PM.

[Dominique de Lombre]

Alaroxr, on 16 August 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Guardian:



Yay scepter...

It's kind of sad, but then again, I think scepter is okay for PvE and the guardian has plenty of viable PvP builds. For those that want to PvP as a ranged guardian, it doesn't look likely unless they change how the weapons work.

I remember in the (latest?) Reddit AMA they had, someone asked about the ranged weapons for guardian and Jon Peters(?) said they the scepter was the guardian's ranged option. In some ways "I guess" in other ways it's a joke.

Edited by mcmgw, 16 August 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[baka125]

I know this is very far fetched but there is a distinct possibility that ANet nerfed the scepter so they can gather some statistics which would help them to mathematically model and thus  balance the weapon better. Either way, I would wait till the release day (its only few days away). The shier number of features they have been adding to the game over the course of the last two weeks has been crazy, and they are clearly  still actively working on class balance.

On topic, I really liked how smite worked in the first BWE and I would be happy if they return to that. Orb should be a bit faster of course, or at least they could have a non-linear speed (for instance, starting out slower and then becoming increasingly faster, or the other way around).

[Alaroxr]

baka125, on 16 August 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

On topic, I really liked how smite worked in the first BWE and I would be happy if they return to that. Orb should be a bit faster of course, or at least they could have a non-linear speed (for instance, starting out slower and then becoming increasingly faster, or the other way around).

Same

In an ideal world, I would have the BWE1 Smite, with a faster version of the current Orb of Wrath.

------------------

I've been thinking about this for a while. ArenaNet won't use this of course, but it's an interesting idea.

Maybe the '1' chain could be like this:

1.) Fire a slow moving orb at your foe

2.) Launch two more slow moving orbs at your foe.

3.) Instantly increase the speed of launched orbs by 3x

This makes the orb usage more skill based and allows for more interesting interactions with Smite and Chains of Light. Honestly, the Scepter is boring, even if it was effective.

Edited by Alaroxr, 16 August 2012 - 07:00 PM.

[Cevilo]

Alaroxr, on 16 August 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Not as well is an understatement.
--snip--

Yay scepter...

--------------------

As for Thief's support... have you see their Venom builds? I would take that any day over a fully support built Guardian, especially in Explorable Mode dungeons (I've played 3). Plus, Stealth is nice.

Direct quote from official wiki http://wiki.guildwar...om/wiki/Support

Quote

Support is one of the three main elements of the combat system, the others being damage and control. It consists of providing increased effectiveness and survivability in combat via additional healing, boons, defensive actions like blocking or cloaking as well as combos. Supporting is a way for players to work together to accomplish a shared goal.

so pretty much a select few abilities for thieves. they have a small handful of skills that can fill the roll, and are no where near on par with guardian. it goes on to say blinds and such are "support" but it says under control that using condi is control, both mention cripple, take it how you will, but condi damage builds = control, not support. maybe you prefer the control, but it doesn't negate the fact that thieves are clearly lacking in the support roll.

Draxas, on 16 August 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

I think you are confused about the point I was trying to make.  I'm not saying that we don't have enough gap closers, or that we are not viable in general.  Actually we are very powerful, I felt very OP with a particular build I made before the changes.  Didn't personally test the changes out because I was playing my Engineer this stress test.  And we certainly do have a lot of control if specced for it.  It was you yourself who said that Guardian would be OP with good ranged because of Sanctuary, so I'm not sure what kind of point you are trying to make.  You are just reacting to some perceived insult that you felt came from me and my "e-peen", when I am just using logic to make an argument for something very reasonable: Guardians having viable ranged combat abilities, like EVERY other class in the game.

Edit: See the videos posted directly above me for the reason why I'm arguing so fervently for a change in Scepter to happen.  It's a pathetic joke of a weapon right now.

no I understand what your point is, Guardians SUCK at Ranged, I agree 100% no argument there, in a PvP zone, that scepter staff combo is probably going to fail so hard there aren't enough words in the English language to describe it,

now the point I was making that you CLEARLY missed the first time around because your first few posts talking about I had no idea what I was talking about, and there is terrain so you can easily get out of the way of a guardian area control, my point was, they don't give you viable range because you have the ability to keep people in melee range all the time. you seem to agree, they are viable, you can work with the lack of range options if you feel "OP" using them. you're just not accepting that it's a valid reason to keep them gimp in ranged combat, more specifically. say they make the scepter viable, things like Shield of wrath become over powered. because you can stay at range, negate 3 attacks, + ages, and Ages proc ray of judgement can blind also negating 1 more attack and you can immobilize for 2 sec. also 2 very good skills that proc a fire combo, for burning. also since we're talking about wards, and range fighting, Guardians actually have access to a ability that protects him from projectiles on top of this all ready crazy amount of defense. Wall of reflection with a 40 sec cool down that returns projectiles to the foe, also they have access to Shield of Absorption with a 60 sec cool down, and can also be proced via 10 points speced into honor and resolute healer one time every 10 seconds. now take all that, give them a useful projectile weapon...

yes I did say sanctuary specifically. in this case, if you have some one who has no ranged attacks. mostly warriors then they would have to run here. but you're completely over looking the fact that this is just one of many examples. if guardians were able to use a useful ranged weapon, there would really be no need to use any class, it's balanced like this for a reason.

and calling some one clueless, and trying to write their statements off because you don't agree with them or see the big picture, is an insult.

Edited by Cevilo, 16 August 2012 - 07:35 PM.

[wetpaw]

pretty sure even the Warrior rifle does more front dmg then Ranger longbow, mostly because the Ranger class gives up dmg do to having a pet.

[doooknoookem]

I have to agree that guardians need some love on ranged options. Scepter could use some work, but it's such a popular pick in sPvP that I don't think it will get the tweaks it needs (didn't it just get weaker and slower recently?). I absolutely hate the Staff 1 skill. It's unimaginative, but more importantly, doesn't do anything. I'd like to see the staff 1 ability get 1200 range with some sort of effect. Necro staff 1 pierces and generates life force (I believe), Ele staff 1 fire does AoE damage and Mesmer staff 1 gives conditions. I wouldn't mind seeing Guardian Staff 1 apply 1 sec blind every 3 hits. Actually, I wouldn't mind if it was made to be just like Ele staff 1 fire attuned, despite how boring it may be.

I would love to see a reworked Orb of Light as our 1 skill where the detonate component is removed and replaced with giving regen/small heal to allies it passes through and damage/burning to enemies it passes through. Would also allow condition builds to use it as a primary weapon. To fill in the skill 2, we could take the skill 1 "Wave" ability, give it a modest cooldown and allow it to pushback or do something in the 600 range that would serve a utilities purpose.

Let's hope we see some sort of Guardian Staff retweak by launch. I have faith in ANet that at the end of the day, things will work out.

Edited by doooknoookem, 16 August 2012 - 08:41 PM.

[indure]

Cevilo, on 16 August 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

no I understand what your point is, Guardians SUCK at Ranged, I agree 100% no argument there, in a PvP zone, that scepter staff combo is probably going to fail so hard there aren't enough words in the English language to describe it,

now the point I was making that you CLEARLY missed the first time around because your first few posts talking about I had no idea what I was talking about, and there is terrain so you can easily get out of the way of a guardian area control, my point was, they don't give you viable range because you have the ability to keep people in melee range all the time. you seem to agree, they are viable, you can work with the lack of range options if you feel "OP" using them. you're just not accepting that it's a valid reason to keep them gimp in ranged combat, more specifically. say they make the scepter viable, things like Shield of wrath become over powered. because you can stay at range, negate 3 attacks, + ages, and Ages proc ray of judgement can blind also negating 1 more attack and you can immobilize for 2 sec. also 2 very good skills that proc a fire combo, for burning. also since we're talking about wards, and range fighting, Guardians actually have access to a ability that protects him from projectiles on top of this all ready crazy amount of defense. Wall of reflection with a 40 sec cool down that returns projectiles to the foe, also they have access to Shield of Absorption with a 60 sec cool down, and can also be proced via 10 points speced into honor and resolute healer one time every 10 seconds. now take all that, give them a useful projectile weapon...

yes I did say sanctuary specifically. in this case, if you have some one who has no ranged attacks. mostly warriors then they would have to run here. but you're completely over looking the fact that this is just one of many examples. if guardians were able to use a useful ranged weapon, there would really be no need to use any class, it's balanced like this for a reason.

and calling some one clueless, and trying to write their statements off because you don't agree with them or see the big picture, is an insult.

Your missing some things. One, just because a guardian has the tools to not only be effective in melee, but also stay in melee range does not mean that it is always best for any class to do so. You obviously have not play WvW. Melee is not viable most of the time in WvW. In castle sieges with walls, melee is not going to be able to attack much and in large skirmishes any melee that ventures into the enemy line will instantly get pulverize by 10 opponents focus firing because you will be the only target they can effectively hit.

Also, in terms of not having a range weapon due to our area control, really you honestly think this is a valid reason? One, you shouldn't count any area control that is created by another weapon because you cannot deal range damage while that weapon is equipped and shield of absorption is channeled meaning the same thing. Secondly, that leaves you with:

Sanctuary: 2 minute cooldown for 6 seconds of projectile only damage. Melee can still destroy you and range can switch to AOE to destroy you or wait 6 seconds.

Wall of Reflection: 40 sec cooldown for 10 sec projectile only reflect. Melee is completely unaffected and range can switch to AOE to destroy you or wait 10 secs.

Line of Warding: Staff: 40 sec cooldown for 5 sec line that unless at a choke point other players can walk around. Does nothing against range attacks.

Chains of Light: Scepter: 20 sec cooldown for 2 sec immobilize that is worthless in a long range fight against another range and mildly useful against melee.

Shield of Wrath: Focus: 45 sec cooldown for 3 blocks.

I honestly have a hard time believing that our range damage should be almost nonexistent because of these 5 abilities. And to be perfectly honest if Anet ask me would you rather have a viable range weapon or these 5 abilities, I would take the viable range weapon in a hearbeat.

If you really believe that a Guardian should have terrible range because of their area denial, then just make the range ability the same as the ranger's longbow and mesmer's greatsword where it does higher damage the further the target is away. That way area denial against melee won't make a difference because in close range it will do terrible damage.

Edited by indure, 16 August 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[Vahkris]

Honestly the scepter main attack could do with a speed buff, or changing it to a beam like Spatial Surge (Mesmer GS #1) or Confusing Images (Mesmer Scepter #3).  Either way, although maybe they want it to be a projectile, so speeding it up and lowering the damage appropriately would work.