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What to pick? Elementalist vs Necromancer


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#1 Dastey

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:54 AM

Well the question is very simple. What should I pick under the following circumstances:
- High burst with big crits
- Nice survivability
- Preferably also able to damage several opponents on the same time
- Nice cooldowns

I seen some videos of necromancers using power/crit build doing very high damage over a short period of time and when they go into the dark shroud (or w/e it was called) they do pretty insane damage.

But how is the elementalist compared to the necromancer when it comes to doing a lot of damage over a short period of time? And how well does the elementalist do in staying alive compared to the necromancer?

#2 Ponzio

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:56 AM

The profession that makes the most fun, balance and stuff will change all the time. Especially in the beta and the weeks after release.

#3 BlackDevil95

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 01:03 AM

I've been always a fan of both factions as I know them both pretty good by now, but I still prefer the elementalist because of its atunements. It really depends where you want to apply the things you've listed up. There's a big difference between Pve and the different kinds of PvP you got in this game. I could help you out a little bit more if you tell me in which situations you want to have those things, because both actually go good with what you wanted, it's just different for what situation and place the faction is in.

#4 Rorigon

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:33 AM

View PostDastey, on 17 August 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

But how is the elementalist compared to the necromancer when it comes to doing a lot of damage over a short period of time? And how well does the elementalist do in staying alive compared to the necromancer?

Last time I checked, Elementalist outdoes Necromancer in terms of burst damage.   However, you don't have nearly as much passive survivability.   Necro is only matched by warrior in terms of it's base health, and combined with DS that makes for extremely sturdy class with high survivability.

Elementalist, though, is the class with both the lowest base health and armor, making it quite fragile.    Obviously things balance out if you're good with the class and use it's abilities properly, but it's less forgiving if you make a mistake(as an example: missing a dodge fighting ettins in Queensdale SUCKS on my Engineer, but on an equal level Elementalist it's completely devastating).

#5 infusco

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 04:53 AM

Pretty much what they said. Burst = Elementalist. Survivability = Necromancer. Obviously, both professions can spec for either, but a bursty ele can always outburst a necro, and a defensive necro can always outlive an ele. So in a straight out fight between the two, the ele will try and push out as much raw brute damage as possible to overwhelm the necro, whereas the necro will normally debuff and DoT the ele and bring it down in the end.

Also, ele is much more agile than the necro, but the necro counters by layout down cripples, chills and weakness.

In the end, assuming proper balance, the better player still wins. There's no real rock-paper-scissors class mentality in this game like there were others. But some profession builds are better at countering other profession builds. For example, bursting a necro with raw damage might bring him down, but laying down heavy conditions, especially if he's playing a counter-condition build himself, is asking for a real world of hurt (necros can transfer conditions. It's really nasty).

#6 General Typhus

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 05:01 AM

Survivability is measured too heavily by health and toughness by players. Keep in mind that an elementalist is head-and-shoulders better than a necromancer when it comes to mobility, an equally important survivability factor.

#7 Dastey

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:22 AM

Ok so definitely a lot of good answers. I guess I forgot to mention what I will most likely be focusing on. In most games so far I have focused on raids and hardcore PvP. However from what I have heard from my friends there isnt really a major source of raid content in this game so it will most likely be tournament PvP I will be focusing on in this game.

Am I correct if I say that the necromancer can deal more damage than the elementalist when there are more than 1 opponent fighting against you on the same time due to a heavy amount of damage over time abilities and then next to that it is able to deal a good amount of burst damage to the one opponent you chose?

Also General Typhus. You say that the elementalist is way better in mobility than the necromancer. What makes the elementalist better in mobility than the necromancer? Does the elementalist have speed, teleport or is it just that the necromancer is required to stand still for some spells?

#8 Merryem

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:39 AM

View PostDastey, on 17 August 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

Ok so definitely a lot of good answers. I guess I forgot to mention what I will most likely be focusing on. In most games so far I have focused on raids and hardcore PvP. However from what I have heard from my friends there isnt really a major source of raid content in this game so it will most likely be tournament PvP I will be focusing on in this game.

Am I correct if I say that the necromancer can deal more damage than the elementalist when there are more than 1 opponent fighting against you on the same time due to a heavy amount of damage over time abilities and then next to that it is able to deal a good amount of burst damage to the one opponent you chose?

Also General Typhus. You say that the elementalist is way better in mobility than the necromancer. What makes the elementalist better in mobility than the necromancer? Does the elementalist have speed, teleport or is it just that the necromancer is required to stand still for some spells?

In 2v1 situations, the Necromancer could dish out more damage I suppose because he lives longer. And conditions.

The Elementalist has more mobility because they have traits that make you faster when attuned to air/equipping a certain weapon, and they have alot of skills that move them around, ex. Burning Speed, Ride the Lightning, Updraft, etc.

#9 Anelyn

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:27 AM

With all those said, keep in mind there are conditions / controls which will prevent you from moving / dodging to avoid damage, in which case, if Mist Form is on CD, you will sort of have a quick demise :)

Also if you decide to go D/D which is a melee oriented build (meaning most of your damaging attacks are delivered in short range from target), and you end up using your mobility to avoid damage, you will find yourself in the position of being unable to deliver damage in return.

#10 Dastey

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:49 AM

Well I do have to say I find the necromancer to be  the most interesting from the few videos I have seen and things I have read. I like the whole death shroud (I think it was called) which to my understanding works like an immortality cooldown where you don't lose health in. On top of that there seems to be both a direct build, condition build and some well build (Which I guess I will figure out what is later on)

#11 sagasaint

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:28 AM

elem's survivality is right on par with necro's if not handsdown exceeding it
necro's have no "out of jail" cards and their hard CC is quite nonexistant and spread among weapons, they are meant to take the beating.
elems OTOH can simply negate all damage by avoiding it entirely with their plenty mobility options



elems can be as durable as necros, but that will need active participation from the player, unlike necros which are mainly focused on passive mitigation.
elems also outdps necros like there's no tomorrow.



elems are better than necros in every possible way (except as condition controllers) but require some more effort to play.

#12 Anelyn

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:44 AM

I have a bit of a problem buying all that (just from reading elementalist forums and watching videos from stress tests).

Maybe you have a video of your own supporting those claims? (or elaborating more in detail how you would build and play said elementalist, let's say for example in a match up against a power / crit ranger with 3 immobilizes, 1 knockdown, 1 stun, 6 seconds of invulnerability, 20 seconds of stability, quickness on demand, condition removal etc).

Now am really interested in your response, thank you in advance! :)

#13 sagasaint

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:49 AM

View PostAnelyn, on 17 August 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Maybe you have a video of your own supporting those claims? (or elaborating more in detail how you would build and play said elementalist
possibly like this


now find me a similar video of a necro killing someone from 100% to 0% in 1 split second then getting away humming to themselves as people hopelessly chase them

eagerly awaiting your response

Edited by sagasaint, 17 August 2012 - 12:08 PM.


#14 Dastey

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 01:44 PM

That video is however 3 weeks old. Is there nothing that has changed in the burst damage of that elementalist specc since then? Cause otherwise group 2 elementalists like that up and have some fun

#15 sagasaint

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 01:57 PM

View PostDastey, on 17 August 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

That video is however 3 weeks old. Is there nothing that has changed in the burst damage of that elementalist specc since then?
it sure hasnt changed enough that necros can dream of doing half of that

#16 Soki

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:01 PM

I would pick Necromancer--and I'll tell you why. Maybe that will help you decide:
Necromancer has a way to control enemy players in a different and (I feel) more reliable way than Elementalist: Transfer and switch of Conditions.
While Elementalists can generally force enemy positions with AoE (staff), or close pressure( daggers), Necromancers can do so by monitoring conditions - and, depending on build, take Ally conditions onto themselves--and transfer them to an enemy to take one person almost fully out of the fight.

Their Profession Ability, Death Shroud, makes them untouchable - meaning if they start taking pressure, they can easily escape to either reposition or disengage and do something else.

#17 Syntak

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:06 PM

View Postsagasaint, on 17 August 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

elem's survivality is right on par with necro's if not handsdown exceeding it
necro's have no "out of jail" cards and their hard CC is quite nonexistant and spread among weapons, they are meant to take the beating.
elems OTOH can simply negate all damage by avoiding it entirely with their plenty mobility options



elems can be as durable as necros, but that will need active participation from the player, unlike necros which are mainly focused on passive mitigation.
elems also outdps necros like there's no tomorrow.



elems are better than necros in every possible way (except as condition controllers) but require some more effort to play.

i actually laughed irl

#18 infusco

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:22 PM

Yeah, I've seen that vid in another thread. I also recall someone in that thread bringing up how much of a glass cannon that build is. Meaning if he gets caught unprepared, he's pretty screwed. Not to mention that vid is edited to keep out all the embarrassing miscalculated deaths.

Dastey, pick the class you feel is most flavourful to your style of play. Necros used to be gimp, but they got a really big boost a couple of days ago to their burst damage, so while you won't do as much damage as an ele, your ability to take hits will balance that out. But do take into consideration that the necro does specialize (for the most part) in conditions and survivability. Again, if you want frenetic and fast paced, go ele. If you like patient and crippling, go necro.

#19 sagasaint

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:32 PM

View PostSyntak, on 17 August 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

i actually laughed irl
I was going to reply to you in a passive-aggresive manner, but then i realized you play guardian so I wont bother. most likely you wouldnt understand anything I'd say. just dont bother replying to threads dealing with proffessions that arent designed for half trained chimps and we'll get along.

Edited by sagasaint, 17 August 2012 - 02:33 PM.


#20 Syntak

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:43 PM

View Postsagasaint, on 17 August 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

I was going to reply to you in a passive-aggresive manner, but then i realized you play guardian so I wont bother. most likely you wouldnt understand anything I'd say. just dont bother replying to threads dealing with proffessions that arent designed for half trained chimps and we'll get along.
thanks for so much amusement, your posts have been a pleasure to read. it's always a good laugh when a fanboy of any profession gets upset

i play guardian do i? well i guess you had a 1 in 8 chance to guess it right, maybe your next attempt will be closer.. only 7 more to choose from

Edited by Syntak, 17 August 2012 - 02:50 PM.


#21 sagasaint

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:52 PM

View PostSyntak, on 17 August 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

thanks for so much amusement, your posts have been a pleasure to read. it's always a good laugh when a fanboy of any profession gets upset
meh, you make it sound like it was hard, if you main a guardian you sure cant be of the type that is difficult to entertain.
here, a banana!

#22 Syntak

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:55 PM

View Postsagasaint, on 17 August 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

meh, you make it sound like it was hard, if you main a guardian you sure cant be of the type that is difficult to entertain.
here, a banana!
not hungry but thanks for the thought

#23 kilger

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 05:27 PM

When I think necro I certainly dont think dps, but they are certainly more survivable in pvp. In pve for whatever reason I find I cant seem to get enough lifeforce up to use death shroud much but that will probably improve as levels go up.   But in pvp you can play "haha you cant kill me" for a while with even a group of players, and whittle down their health over time.

On the other hand elementalists have oodles of options from the get go, and are monsters in DE's.  Their damage is immediate and apparent (not necessary to mess with conditions like necros) as are the effects, just dont come under focus fire.  They have easy access to almost any effect and are very easy to play.  They have so much at their disposal however the skill ceiling is going to be high but the sheer dps is unmatched.

#24 Elker

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 05:31 PM

I think you'd enjoy necromancer more. It's not that either class is better than the other, and it's true that ele=burst and necro=survivability.

However, i feel like a necro is overall more balanced. They don't have the support-capabilities or burst-capabilities of an ele, but they are tankier, have solid conditions, very interesting support options (wells, staff, plague form, etc), and strong damage potential with lich form+power or condition damage.

I would reccomend trying both, as feel is one of the most important parts. This is simply my opinion.

#25 Clockwork Bard

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 05:59 PM

2v1 is a relatively challenging situation in PvP that requires much more than the superior area firepower of other games.  Careful use of control, stability and other survivability tools are important as well.  A burst-damage, glass cannon build is going to have a much harder time against two opponents since he has to survive downing and finishing both of them without getting downed himself.  Both professions have the tools to pull this off, though I wish Necromancer had easier access to stability (limited to their elite forms and a grandmaster trait).  It can be very difficult to finish off an opponent while his ally is interrupting your finisher move.  Elementalists have the Armor of Earth utility, which is practically a must have in this situation.

Edit: I take that back.  The Necromancer elite forms are more than sufficient stability.  If you're getting in 2v1 situations more frequently than once every 3 minutes, your inevitable defeat might be well earned.

Edited by Clockwork Bard, 17 August 2012 - 06:08 PM.


#26 Crosier

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:31 PM

View Postsagasaint, on 17 August 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

it sure hasnt changed enough that necros can dream of doing half of that

With the boost to Well of Corruption/Suffering, a Necro can certainly do half that. Somebody did the math somewhere and came to the conclusion that if 5 enemies are within the Well of Suffering, a Power-specced Necro will do 40k AoE damage in 5 seconds.

Or something. I don't know. Elementalists definitely burst harder, but give up the ability to just stand there and take it, which Necros are a lot better at (and subsequently exceed burst Ele when it comes to point defense). But the cool thing about Elementalists is that they can build themselves to be tough as nails too, but they trade a lot of their burst damage potential for that, of course, as you're probably well aware of.

They're both great classes.




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