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Warrior's Brawn & Ranger's Empathy; useless compared to the other profession specific attributes?

warrior ranger profession unfair useless balance

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#1 Babylon421

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 04:03 AM

If you take a look at all of the trait line's of each profession, you will see that there is always one that adds their profession-specific attribute. These are supposed to improve the profession-specific skills of each class by a noticeable amount. However, it seems to me that the overall usefulness of them are not exactly equal. Let's take a look at them.

Elementalist: Intelligence: Reduces attunement recharge rate by 2% every point, for a max of 60% (15s down to 6s)

Warrior: Brawn: Increases the damage of your burst skills by 1% per 10 points, for a max of 3%. (100% to 103%)

Ranger: Empathy: Increases your pet's attributes bonus by 1 per point, for a max of 30 bonus points to each attribute (120 in total) (Majority of pet attributes are 1374, so let's say from 1374 to 1404, which is less than a 3% increase to each attribute. Edit: Seems I was a bit wrong here, apparently each point in empathy adds 10 attribute points, but is listed as "1 attribute bonus" so I perceived it as just 1 attribute point. Ignore those calculations.

Necromancer: Hunger: Increases the life force pool by 1% every point, for a max of 30% (100 to 130)

Guardian: Willpower: Reduces the recharge rate of your virtues by 1% per point, for a max of 30%. (30s->21s, 60s->42s, 90s->63s)

Thief: Cunning: Reduces the recharge rate of the Steal ability by 1% per point, for a max of 30%. (45s to 31.5s)

Engineer: Ingenuity: Reduces the recharge rate of your tool belt skills by 1% per point, for a max of 30%. (Toolbelt skills rely on your heal and utility skills so they vary greatly, but understand that 30% is a big reduction)

Mesmer: Guille: Reduces the recharge rate of your shatter skills by 1% per point, for a max of 30%. (15s->11.5s, 30s->21s, 45s->31.5s, 60s->42s)

Now, the majority of these obviously please the player with some very nice bonuses, however when we take a look at the Warrior and Ranger, it just doesn't seem to be up to par with the rest of the classes.

Warrior:A 3% increase in burst skill damage? Oh come on, consider that 3% is a VERY small amount, a few stacks of might would do more than that, especially since Brawn only effects your burst skill damage, which keep in mind, all have 10 second cool-downs except for the longbow which is 20 seconds. If you hit 1000 damage with your burst skill, it will bump up to 1030! So useful! Now, I won't say that the actual train-line is useless (because it sure isn't) but if you look at the other profession's attributes, brawn looks like an ant next to a kitten. There has to be a more useful addition that can be added to brawn rather than a 0.1% damage increase per point. How about the amount of adrenaline being needed for each bar? I understand that this was most likely done to keep Eviscerate from being overpowered; but why must the rest of the burst skills suffer? Eviscerate is no longer overpowered anyway, so why not increase it to a full 1% per point. Well, I'm sure there has to be some sort of method they can use to have it be a bit more useful than a 3% damage buff on your burst skills.

Ranger: Now the Ranger's empathy at maximum would only increase each of it's pets attributes by 30 points. Which is very much benign at level 80 or in pvp. I think this would be a lot simpler to fix; maybe so that it scales with level or so; or maybe a completely different addition, I don't know but it seems to be not doing very much at the moment compared to the other classes. Edit: See above edit in the Ranger section.

Well, that about sums up my thoughts. It was something that's been bugging me for a while and I haven't really seen people discussing it so I figured I would begin a thread where I can hear other peoples' thoughts. I'm sure ArenaNet has their reasons for keeping them as they are at the moment, but I feel as though it would bring better profession balance if every profession attribute was as useful as the next. If you have any, please share your thoughts/opinions/ideas on what can be done, if anything at all.

Edited by Babylon421, 18 August 2012 - 06:41 AM.


#2 DrTenma0

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 04:10 AM

In the case of int it's 15/1.6 = 9.5 cooldown.
First time i'm exposed to the effect of brawn, it has to be a troll from anet, what kind of design is that lol?
As a warrior you should be thankful, it's like setting the base attunement cooldown to 10s and making it reduce by 6% for 30 points, but obviously terrible design.

Edited by DrTenma0, 18 August 2012 - 04:31 AM.


#3 Zinn

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 04:32 AM

View PostDrTenma0, on 18 August 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

In the case of int it's 15/1.6 = 9.5 cooldown.
First time i'm exposed to the effect of brawn, it has to be a troll from anet, what kind of design is that lol?
As a warrior you should be thankful, it's like setting the base attunement cooldown to 10s and making it reduce by 6% for 30 points.

It used to be 30%, they nerfed it in response to the burst.  They should just really change it to something else.

#4 DrTenma0

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 04:46 AM

Class bias right there. And the game is releasing in 1 week.

#5 Nettle

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 05:28 AM

View PostBabylon421, on 18 August 2012 - 04:03 AM, said:

Ranger: Now the Ranger's empathy at maximum would only increase each of it's pets attributes by 30 points. Which is very much benign at level 80 or in pvp. I think this would be a lot simpler to fix; maybe so that it scales with level or so; or maybe a completely different addition, I don't know but it seems to be not doing very much at the moment compared to the other classes.

This is not quite right.

1 empathy = +10 to every pet stat.

30 BM = +300 to every pet stat.

It's actually very good.

#6 Babylon421

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:38 AM

View PostNettle, on 18 August 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

This is not quite right.

1 empathy = +10 to every pet stat.

30 BM = +300 to every pet stat.

It's actually very good.
Oh is that so? I honestly only looked at online builders and other websites and it keeps saying "+1 to pet attribute bonus." I never saw a description that it was actually 10 attribute points.

#7 masterloup

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:44 AM

Quote

Elementalist: Intelligence: Reduces attunement recharge rate by 2% every point, for a max of 60% (15s down to 6s)

Try 9.4

15/160*100 = 9.375

Edited by masterloup, 18 August 2012 - 06:51 AM.


#8 Morglum

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:57 AM

Brawn is especially bad as it does only "help" burst abilities with a lot of "direct" damage. Condition finishers, stuns, combo fields... they do not benefit. 3% for maybe ~50% of the burst skills of all weapon choices is really bad. There are two burst skills where brawn actually had an extreme effect: Axe and Rifle.

#9 Bilateralrope

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:12 AM

View PostBabylon421, on 18 August 2012 - 04:03 AM, said:

Now, I won't say that the actual train-line is useless (because it sure isn't)

The thing you need to consider, which this line of your hints at, is that you can't directly compare one element of a class to its corresponding element of other classes. You need to look at the class as a whole. So, while brawn itself seems useless compared to the other class attributes, does the warrior have other advantages to make up for it ?

I'm not a warrior player, so I can't answer that question.

#10 ScottBroChill

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 04:17 PM

View PostBilateralrope, on 18 August 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

The thing you need to consider, which this line of your hints at, is that you can't directly compare one element of a class to its corresponding element of other classes. You need to look at the class as a whole. So, while brawn itself seems useless compared to the other class attributes, does the warrior have other advantages to make up for it ?

I'm not a warrior player, so I can't answer that question.

You're totally right, I think everyone forgets that about the individual classes.

#11 masterloup

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 04:17 PM

View PostMaxtofunator, on 18 August 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

Ok, let us look at how much damage eviscerate does for a second, whenever a warrior in PVP PROPERLY lands this attack, it will hit for let's say, at least 6k, because it is usually followed up by either another stun or straight into hundred blades, and then most people are dead.
So 6k, what is 3% of that? Oh right, 900 damage.
That adds 1k extra damage JUST from that, so really, that can be a lot of damage if you built and buffed correctly when you use your burst skills.

Just wanted to point out that 3% of 6k is 200'ish

#12 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 04:36 PM

Wow Brawn seems ridiculously bad. I understand that 30% was way too much, but they should maybe change the design (gives you more adrenalin per move?) then. 3% more damage for 30 point is just aweful.

300 stats for the pet is actually quite nice for the ranger attribute.

#13 Babylon421

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:44 PM

View PostBilateralrope, on 18 August 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

The thing you need to consider, which this line of your hints at, is that you can't directly compare one element of a class to its corresponding element of other classes. You need to look at the class as a whole. So, while brawn itself seems useless compared to the other class attributes, does the warrior have other advantages to make up for it ?

I'm not a warrior player, so I can't answer that question.

Yeah I definitely took that into consideration; and of course every class will have some sort of advantage over the other classes, but regardless of whether or not a class has advantages and disadvantages, the profession-specific attribute should all have the same value when it comes to effectiveness, as that is how it is for all of the 8 common attributes. Of course they shouldn't all be the same, but they should all have the same level of effect on the player.

#14 Zeldias

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:57 PM

I'd definitely agree that Warriors have other advantages that cover for Brawn, but the gains from Brawn are pretty crap. As others have said, perhaps it should just be something else that will be of more use to all Burst skills. Maybe reduced cooldown on Burst skills? I like enhanced Adrenaline gain, too. Or some combination of that or something else. I don't like it just adding damage because it doesn't really help condition afflicting Burst skills nor is it exactly interesting.

Maybe it would just flatly increase the effects of Burst Skills? So if the effect is damage, it increases damage, but if it's a condition like Skull Crack, it would extend the stun? Increase Earthshaker's AoE and leap range? I dunno.

#15 Wallach

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 08:39 PM

It's really just Brawn that is terrible. The others are pretty well balanced. Brawn may as well not exist in its current form, needs revision.

#16 Bilateralrope

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:19 PM

View PostBabylon421, on 18 August 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Yeah I definitely took that into consideration; and of course every class will have some sort of advantage over the other classes, but regardless of whether or not a class has advantages and disadvantages, the profession-specific attribute should all have the same value when it comes to effectiveness, as that is how it is for all of the 8 common attributes. Of course they shouldn't all be the same, but they should all have the same level of effect on the player.

Even then, you can't get brawn without getting the rest of the discipline line. How does the discipline line compare to the warriors other trait lines ?

#17 Kaylos21

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:52 PM

While warriors may make up for in other areas, it is still a problem to have an attribute that no one, except the most devoted of min/max players, would even notice if it was gone.  The whole design of it is pretty bad considering not all "burst" abilities even focus on damage.  It is basically the Axe/Rifle stat, and not even good for that anymore.

3% damage to one ability with a 10 second cooldown when only 2 of the weapons even have a use for it.  It's entirely anciliary and only gotten because the discipline trait line itself is pretty good.

#18 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:45 PM

Eviscerate is plenty overpowered.  Brawn used to give +30% to burst damage and people were hitting somewhere in the range of 20k with a single Eviscerate.  Now they "only" hit about 10k so I guess it's balanced?  Lol.

#19 Maxtofunator

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:54 PM

View Postmasterloup, on 18 August 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Just wanted to point out that 3% of 6k is 200'ish
Yes,thank you, I did 30% on accident, it was early for me, and really, I guess I only showed how OP it would be to GIVE them 30% still, maybe if they did 10% it might be a better way to balance it? Or maybe go for 6%? One for each 5 points, that would raise it to be about 400, though really, that doesn't seem worth it. I like the increased adrenaline gain or CD reduction as well, though CD reduction doesn't seem worth it for the time it takes to rebuild the adrenaline.

#20 Alberel

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 01:48 AM

Warriors used to have 30% didn't they? And it got nerfed to hell because it was insane...

IMO they should have left the trait line at 30% and reduced the base damage of the burst skills themselves; most people consider their burst a bit too much as it stands anyway and this would require them to actually trait for it.

Bear in mind that most professions have to trait to make their profession mechanic remotely useful. Rangers and thieves especially, though elementalists really suffer without the CD reduction on attunements and guardian virtues have stupidly long CDs for what they offer. Warriors can get near full benefit from their burst skills with zero investment in them... not to mention that ANY damage increase through stats/boons improves their burst, whilst most profession specific attributes are the only means of improving their profession mechanic.

#21 Haku

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:24 AM

Both of those are pretty disappointing.

#22 Phys

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:27 AM

the brawn balance is now trash, lets be honest, it has to change. 3% burst damage is less useful than 3 stacks of vulnerability. It is by far and away the crappiest profession stat i think any of has seen. The only reason people take that line is for crit damage up, and the traits. Whereas many other lines provide a strong benefit to the class mechanic.

what to replace it with... obvious choice would be cool down shortening. there is other possibilities, but they wouldnt be that statistical

#23 Wallach

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 04:33 AM

To be honest they ought to just nerf Adrenaline gain and make Brawn increase how much Adrenaline you get per strike. Adrenaline gain seems too fast right now, especially with how many other traits affect it.

#24 Haku

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 05:53 AM

View PostWallach, on 19 August 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

To be honest they ought to just nerf Adrenaline gain and make Brawn increase how much Adrenaline you get per strike. Adrenaline gain seems too fast right now, especially with how many other traits affect it.
1 adrenaline per swing. 10 adrenaline per bar, 3 bars in total. Seems pretty well round to me, and I haven't even touched warrior. Greatsword gets a lot of adrenaline with 100 blades, but it's Burst skill sucks. I don't really think there's a problem.

#25 Wallach

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:09 AM

View PostHaku, on 19 August 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

1 adrenaline per swing. 10 adrenaline per bar, 3 bars in total. Seems pretty well round to me, and I haven't even touched warrior. Greatsword gets a lot of adrenaline with 100 blades, but it's Burst skill sucks. I don't really think there's a problem.

Well, it's one of the classes I play and during gameplay you pretty much have Adrenaline dribbling out your nose. It's compounded by the fact that you can't actually waste Adrenaline (only the Burst CD) and a whole grip of traits that accelerate it. I'd rather keep the traits powerful and just lower the baseline somewhat. Right now it hardly feels like a resource at all, only a CD.

#26 Zinn

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:27 AM

View PostWallach, on 19 August 2012 - 06:09 AM, said:

Well, it's one of the classes I play and during gameplay you pretty much have Adrenaline dribbling out your nose. It's compounded by the fact that you can't actually waste Adrenaline (only the Burst CD) and a whole grip of traits that accelerate it. I'd rather keep the traits powerful and just lower the baseline somewhat. Right now it hardly feels like a resource at all, only a CD.

Different playstyles.  I am constantly struggling for adrenaline and I have 2 traits to help increase generation of it.  I'm glad you aren't thinking only of yourself and how you play the warrior when suggesting changes.

#27 Haku

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:38 AM

View PostWallach, on 19 August 2012 - 06:09 AM, said:

Well, it's one of the classes I play and during gameplay you pretty much have Adrenaline dribbling out your nose. It's compounded by the fact that you can't actually waste Adrenaline (only the Burst CD) and a whole grip of traits that accelerate it. I'd rather keep the traits powerful and just lower the baseline somewhat. Right now it hardly feels like a resource at all, only a CD.
I've toyed with the idea of a warrior spec that took as much cc and adrenaline generation as it could get, bunker, and warhammer for maximum CC. I've only ever heard of one person doing this... anyway... On to facts.

I've done more than enough TPvP to say that warriors are fine right now. Knockbacks are annoying, but when it comes to raw damage they do decent, not too much, but definitely not enough to consistently murder a bunker build(what I usually run). They have to hit to get adrenaline, they have to hit their burst for it to mean anything. If adrenaline generation is slower then that's more time when they're not using their single class mechanic. From a ranger's viewpoint warrior is pretty simple. From an engi's viewpoint warrior is friggin ezmode.

Maybe the solution is to give them utilities that make use of adrenaline I mean actually CONSUME it.

#28 Wallach

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:49 AM

View PostHaku, on 19 August 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

Maybe the solution is to give them utilities that make use of adrenaline I mean actually CONSUME it.

I don't know, maybe. Something to make it actually feel like a resource. It needs a little more management on the player's part.

#29 Istaro

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:56 AM

Haha, at first I thought the OP had made a mistake with the Brawn numbers.  Apparently not.  Poor warriors.  Or lucky warriors for having a dump stat.

#30 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:35 AM

View PostAlberel, on 19 August 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

Warriors used to have 30% didn't they? And it got nerfed to hell because it was insane...

IMO they should have left the trait line at 30% and reduced the base damage of the burst skills themselves; most people consider their burst a bit too much as it stands anyway and this would require them to actually trait for it.

Bear in mind that most professions have to trait to make their profession mechanic remotely useful. Rangers and thieves especially, though elementalists really suffer without the CD reduction on attunements and guardian virtues have stupidly long CDs for what they offer. Warriors can get near full benefit from their burst skills with zero investment in them... not to mention that ANY damage increase through stats/boons improves their burst, whilst most profession specific attributes are the only means of improving their profession mechanic.

The problem is either you make it so the burst skills with the +30% burst damage deals the same as they do now, or you make it so they're slightly reduced at base and more powerful than they are now.  If you do the former it's a straight nerf that may or may not be justified, and if you do the latter you're giving warriors the potential to hit massive crits on their burst skills again.  After they nerfed damage across the board for everyone I think the last thing they want is for warriors to be hitting 15k Eviscerates again.





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