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Warrior's Brawn & Ranger's Empathy; useless compared to the other profession specific attributes?

warrior ranger profession unfair useless balance

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#31 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:25 AM

While I absolutely wouldn't mind an improvement of Brawn, even  the current state won't stop me from throwing a shit-ton of points into it for the line's absolutely superb traits.

#32 bonx

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:25 AM

I'd like to see Warrior burst skills base damage reduced by 23% then they can put Brawn back to 1% per point invested :P

#33 Zogoth

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:52 AM

I hope they come up with something good. Movement Speed, Skill or Utility cooldown reduction, something related to Adrenalin maybe.

But no matter what, people are going to complain. Warrior is GW2's go to class, to bring up to justify your own profession having something too powerful, after all.

#34 eldrjth

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 11:28 AM

I dont find any of the class attributes to be that useful really, but havent played warrior or guardian. I dont think each class specific attribute needs to be individually balanced, rather the entire classes on a whole should be balanced so theres not one class that is overwhelmingly more powerful/flexible than the others . if you compare thiefs class specific ability, steal, to the warriors adrenaline the thiefs ability is lacking. the warrior gets to turn his adrenaline into a special attack which in some cases can deal upwards to 8k dmg. the thief needs to use up a major trait point for its steal to deal 2k damage, but the thief can spec its steal to take boons and also give them to allies, but that cost another major trait point. so it seems the thief is underpowered right by just examining one point?

the warrior and ranger class on a whole are obviously not underpowered compared to others. I dont see why you pick this minor point out when other classes lack in areas far more than them.

Edited by eldrjth, 19 August 2012 - 11:32 AM.


#35 Morglum

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 03:01 PM

His point is not that the class is underpowered but the class stat is utterly crap. It should have some use, maybe even convert is to something totally different because many burst skills are not about direct damage. If you´d achieve "100% balance" (which will never happen) the class stat would still be crap and if you change it at this point the warrior might get too strong again. So yes, thinking about this stat now is a good idea.
They could e.g. increase the burst skills "effect" by 1% per point, e.g. 30% longer stun duration from mace/hammer burst or 30% longer combo field duration from longbow. Making it have a different effect for different burst skills would also mean they could go for 15% direct damage (axe/rifle) increase but 30% on duration (mace/hammer/sword/longbow) etc.

#36 Haku

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 04:18 PM

View Postbonx, on 19 August 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

I'd like to see Warrior burst skills base damage reduced by 23% then they can put Brawn back to 1% per point invested :P
That's WoW balance logic. Every warrior would suffer unless they filled brawn.

#37 luminumcan

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 05:21 PM

Could Brawn be a buff to the rate of adrenaline gain, perhaps? Though if that were the case, at least a portion of the traits that currently buff adrenaline would have to be reworked to compensate.

#38 Alberel

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 05:53 PM

View PostHaku, on 19 August 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

That's WoW balance logic. Every warrior would suffer unless they filled brawn.

Note that warriors are the only profession able to get full use of their profession mechanic without traiting as it is... Warrior burst skills are a threat to be wary of no matter their build whilst every other profession's mechanic is rather lacklustre without traits.

#39 Maxtofunator

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:47 PM

View Postluminumcan, on 19 August 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

Could Brawn be a buff to the rate of adrenaline gain, perhaps? Though if that were the case, at least a portion of the traits that currently buff adrenaline would have to be reworked to compensate.

From when I was playing a warrior, I had no problem gaining adrenaline, but it may have been the way I was built, though I don't see many people complaining about it. Like other people, I think they should get something that is universally useful, such as a CD reduction, or a way of making it more effective, such as longer stuns and stuffff

#40 luminumcan

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:06 PM

View PostMaxtofunator, on 19 August 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

From when I was playing a warrior, I had no problem gaining adrenaline, but it may have been the way I was built, though I don't see many people complaining about it. Like other people, I think they should get something that is universally useful, such as a CD reduction, or a way of making it more effective, such as longer stuns and stuffff

Yeah, if Brawn were made into a way of increasing adrenaline gain there would have to be a whole lot of rebalancing of other skills to make it worth investing in without being overshadowed by other skills and traits. But that would at least be a universal benefit; every Warrior uses adrenaline, no matter what kind of build they have. Cooldown reduction for burst skills would also make sense, but burst cooldowns would certainly have to all have their base values increased to compensate.

#41 Shinimas

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:12 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 18 August 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

Eviscerate is plenty overpowered.  Brawn used to give +30% to burst damage and people were hitting somewhere in the range of 20k with a single Eviscerate.  Now they "only" hit about 10k so I guess it's balanced?  Lol.

10k Evis? Only with a glass cannon build, against glass cannon builds and with Might/Vuln stacking. Go see what an Ele can do with his combos.

Quote

Note that warriors are the only profession able to get full use of their profession mechanic without traiting as it is... Warrior burst skills are a threat to be wary of no matter their build whilst every other profession's mechanic is rather lacklustre without traits.

Only Steal and Virtues suck without traiting.

Edited by Shinimas, 19 August 2012 - 07:14 PM.


#42 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 08:42 PM

View PostShinimas, on 19 August 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

10k Evis? Only with a glass cannon build, against glass cannon builds and with Might/Vuln stacking. Go see what an Ele can do with his combos.

Eles lack sustained damage to go with that burst.  If they don't kill the opponent instantly with their big spike then they're pretty much screwed.

#43 Alberel

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:28 AM

View PostShinimas, on 19 August 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

10k Evis? Only with a glass cannon build, against glass cannon builds and with Might/Vuln stacking. Go see what an Ele can do with his combos.
The fact is they can do it with a single skill... An elementalist does it through a combo (i.e. multiple skills, which are much harder to land successively) and they are much squishier than a glass cannon warrior. It's actually ridiculous that warriors can pump out the burst they can from a single skill with the high base health they have even when built as a glass cannon. The ele forums have several threads at the moment discussing why their damage has recently been hit so hard with the nerfbat when their squishiness requires such high damage just to break even in a fight.

View PostShinimas, on 19 August 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

Only Steal and Virtues suck without traiting.
Ranger pets are nigh useless unless their entire build is centred on them. They're little more than a weak F2 support bot otherwise.
Necro deathshroud is short enough fully traited, without traits it's very brief and only really delays the inevitable.
Mesmer shatters are in the same boat as guardian virtues.
Elementalists are locked out of attunements for a whole 15s without traiting into arcane which hits their versatility.

My point isn't even that they're useless or anything like that. The point is a warrior can get 100% (well ok, more accurately 97%) benefit of his profession mechanic without traiting for it at all, whilst all the other professions have to trait to make it anywhere near as good. It's bad enough that warriors have the only profession mechanic that directly augments their damage in such a big way.

Edited by Alberel, 20 August 2012 - 01:29 AM.


#44 Istaro

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:05 AM

View PostShinimas, on 19 August 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

10k Evis? Only with a glass cannon build, against glass cannon builds and with Might/Vuln stacking. Go see what an Ele can do with his combos.

What's a glass cannon warrior?  One with only 18.3k health?

#45 Maal

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:11 AM

View PostIstaro, on 20 August 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

What's a glass cannon warrior?  One with only 18.3k health?
Warrior have alot of HP/armor because they are way more likely to eat the damages, he lack avoidance, stealth, blind/chill... A glass canon warrior may have higher hp/armor than a glass canon ele, but if he fail his combo he's a sitting duck.

#46 Phys

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:07 PM

View PostAlberel, on 20 August 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

The fact is they can do it with a single skill... An elementalist does it through a combo (i.e. multiple skills, which are much harder to land successively) and they are much squishier than a glass cannon warrior. It's actually ridiculous that warriors can pump out the burst they can from a single skill with the high base health they have even when built as a glass cannon. The ele forums have several threads at the moment discussing why their damage has recently been hit so hard with the nerfbat when their squishiness requires such high damage just to break even in a fight.


Ranger pets are nigh useless unless their entire build is centred on them. They're little more than a weak F2 support bot otherwise.
Necro deathshroud is short enough fully traited, without traits it's very brief and only really delays the inevitable.
Mesmer shatters are in the same boat as guardian virtues.
Elementalists are locked out of attunements for a whole 15s without traiting into arcane which hits their versatility.

My point isn't even that they're useless or anything like that. The point is a warrior can get 100% (well ok, more accurately 97%) benefit of his profession mechanic without traiting for it at all, whilst all the other professions have to trait to make it anywhere near as good. It's bad enough that warriors have the only profession mechanic that directly augments their damage in such a big way.

you are incorrect though, warrior has a lot of adrenal/burst traits that make better use of the class mechanic, increase damage, and increase crit rate. i count 12 traits built around adrenaline/bursts

the only thing missing is the stat effect. and i think people are saying the stat effect needs to do something to improve the class mechanic more.

#47 Alberel

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:38 PM

View PostPhys, on 20 August 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

you are incorrect though, warrior has a lot of adrenal/burst traits that make better use of the class mechanic, increase damage, and increase crit rate. i count 12 traits built around adrenaline/bursts

the only thing missing is the stat effect. and i think people are saying the stat effect needs to do something to improve the class mechanic more.
I was referring specifically to the actual unique profession attribute; every profession has traits to slot that can improve it and warrior is no different in that. Warriors simply don't need an attribute to boost their burst skills any further.

#48 Zeldias

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:18 PM

View PostAlberel, on 20 August 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

I was referring specifically to the actual unique profession attribute; every profession has traits to slot that can improve it and warrior is no different in that. Warriors simply don't need an attribute to boost their burst skills any further.

It should be left broken because the Warriors are good in other areas? That's silly. And note that by broken I mean worthless.

It would make more sense to change what Brawn modifies so it's:

1) More interesting than flat damage (and preferably useful for Burst skills that aren't based on straight damage).
2) A desirable and noteworthy boost.

Warriors being a good class doesn't mean that they deserve a worthless stat.

#49 Alberel

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:27 PM

View PostZeldias, on 20 August 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

It should be left broken because the Warriors are good in other areas? That's silly. And note that by broken I mean worthless.

It would make more sense to change what Brawn modifies so it's:

1) More interesting than flat damage (and preferably useful for Burst skills that aren't based on straight damage).
2) A desirable and noteworthy boost.

Warriors being a good class doesn't mean that they deserve a worthless stat.

The problem you're overlooking though is that ANet have said they consider the warrior to be more or less 'balanced' now. If they do anything with brawn they'll be forced to nerf in other areas to compensate.

You basically have a choice between a stat with little effect or a stat you need to take to have the same effect as you have now... Warriors are not likely to be getting many buffs in the near future, any changes to brawn will be compensated for elsewhere.

#50 Zeldias

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:32 PM

View PostAlberel, on 20 August 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

The problem you're overlooking though is that ANet have said they consider the warrior to be more or less 'balanced' now. If they do anything with brawn they'll be forced to nerf in other areas to compensate.

You basically have a choice between a stat with little effect or a stat you need to take to have the same effect as you have now... Warriors are not likely to be getting many buffs in the near future, any changes to brawn will be compensated for elsewhere.

Why not change the effect that the stat has? Brawn doesn't have to only increase damage just because that's what it does now. And that would make it more interesting and viable than straight damage.

I do agree that Brawn having just straight up damage is bland. I guess what I'm really looking for is less "make Brawn good" and more "make Brawn interesting."

#51 Ayestes

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:58 PM

Brawn really does need to have some value.  The easiest would be to change it so it reduces Burst Skill cooldown by 1% per point.  Then take the Burst cooldown reduction trait out and replace it with something a whole lot more fun.

#52 Larsen

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 10:03 PM

The alarming thing is that warrior is one of the best professions despite having a stat that pretty much doesn't do anything.

#53 Kitsune

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:05 PM

Switch Adrenaline to a 100 point system, with each normal attack generally providing a base of 10.

Increase ranks to 5 bars, with 20 points filling each bar.

Change Brawn to "increase Adrenaline gain from all sources by 1% per rank."

Make Adrenaline skills better at the high end that currently available, and weaker at the low end.

Make 100-Blades usable while moving and turn it into a burst skill with a higher damage cap than it currently has.

And the vast majority of warrior balancing issues are fixed :)

Fixes the following issues:

1. Brawn only being useful for "damage" focused Burst skills (and worthless in current state)

2. Ends the normal combination of 100-Blades + Eviscerate, which is ridiculously powerful currently at little cost since one doesn't cost Adrenaline.

3. "Starting" a fight with 100-Blades + Bull's Charge, though still allowing it to be used once a fight has been going on.

4. Makes the Burst from GS actually useful while opening up another slot on the weapon to add something cool (seriously, who uses the current one, its far inferior to the other options and the REAL burst is 100-blades!).

5. The revamped Adrenaline system makes the burst skills even more deadly BUT makes them far more predictable, as you will have to be in a fight with a warrior for a decent amount of time before they are at 100 Adrenaline, so you generally know when to watch for them (as opposed the the current system of Bulls Charge > 100-Blades which you get blindsided with).

Edited by Kitsune, 20 August 2012 - 11:07 PM.


#54 Zeldias

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 12:24 AM

View PostKitsune, on 20 August 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

Switch Adrenaline to a 100 point system, with each normal attack generally providing a base of 10.

Increase ranks to 5 bars, with 20 points filling each bar.

Change Brawn to "increase Adrenaline gain from all sources by 1% per rank."

Make Adrenaline skills better at the high end that currently available, and weaker at the low end.

Make 100-Blades usable while moving and turn it into a burst skill with a higher damage cap than it currently has.

And the vast majority of warrior balancing issues are fixed :)

Fixes the following issues:

1. Brawn only being useful for "damage" focused Burst skills (and worthless in current state)

2. Ends the normal combination of 100-Blades + Eviscerate, which is ridiculously powerful currently at little cost since one doesn't cost Adrenaline.

3. "Starting" a fight with 100-Blades + Bull's Charge, though still allowing it to be used once a fight has been going on.

4. Makes the Burst from GS actually useful while opening up another slot on the weapon to add something cool (seriously, who uses the current one, its far inferior to the other options and the REAL burst is 100-blades!).

5. The revamped Adrenaline system makes the burst skills even more deadly BUT makes them far more predictable, as you will have to be in a fight with a warrior for a decent amount of time before they are at 100 Adrenaline, so you generally know when to watch for them (as opposed the the current system of Bulls Charge > 100-Blades which you get blindsided with).

I dunno about the change. Forgive my math (I'm an English professor, not a calculator, dammit!), but wouldn't that mean that at best each hit would gain 13 Adrenaline instead of 10 with full Brawn? I dunno. I like the idea of Brawn reducing the cooldown of Adrenaline skills and replacing that one trait. Feels smoother. If it's nomenclature getting in the way, rename it to something like Adroit or Prowess or Expertise or whatever.

I do feel like 100 Blades should be a Burst Skill. Although I think the trouble is that it would feel a lot like Flurry. I know it doesn't do the same thing, but just aesthetically, two sword weapons that have a Burst skill that's a series of attacks? Eh.

#55 Kitsune

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:58 AM

View PostZeldias, on 21 August 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

I do feel like 100 Blades should be a Burst Skill. Although I think the trouble is that it would feel a lot like Flurry. I know it doesn't do the same thing, but just aesthetically, two sword weapons that have a Burst skill that's a series of attacks? Eh.

Well, thematically they are different as well. Flurry is deftly slicing your foe's vitals over and over to open their wounds to let the bleeding do the work while they helplessly have to sit their and take it, while 100-Blades essentially is the decimate-thy-foe-over-time, while Eviscerate is deal massive damage in a single blow. To me, that makes all three distinct and unique enough, unless you can think up a better alternative for a greatsword burst skill that isnt a copy of Eviscerate :D


As for the Adrenaline suggestion, it could be any number that ends up being balanced. Perhaps 1.5% per rank, as 30% total is a bit on the low side.

#56 Zeldias

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:23 AM

View PostKitsune, on 21 August 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

Well, thematically they are different as well. Flurry is deftly slicing your foe's vitals over and over to open their wounds to let the bleeding do the work while they helplessly have to sit their and take it, while 100-Blades essentially is the decimate-thy-foe-over-time, while Eviscerate is deal massive damage in a single blow. To me, that makes all three distinct and unique enough, unless you can think up a better alternative for a greatsword burst skill that isnt a copy of Eviscerate :D


As for the Adrenaline suggestion, it could be any number that ends up being balanced. Perhaps 1.5% per rank, as 30% total is a bit on the low side.

Well, yeah. I was just thinking of the visuals. Anywho, something ought to be done to make Brawn not worthless. The only thing I could think of for a Greatsword Burst skill would be some kind of mobile attack, since the weapon has so many. Some kind of dash that cleaves all foes in the way for heavy damage that acts as a leap finisher?





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