19 replies to this topic

[asbasb]

Hey,

way back when Leap and ILeap for the Mesmer were still separate skills, the devs advertized this as one of the examples of how Mesmers could confuse(not the condition) their enemy, as skill two and three looked identical from an opponent's point of view. Now that they have been combined into one, I fail to understand how this skill could be used to make your enemy doubt whether he's fighting the real Mesmer or a clone. The skill always sends a clone out first and on second activation always teleports and immobilizes the target. Is there another way for the Mesmer to leap towards his enemy with a MH sword equipped? Am I missing something?

[Merryem]

Well, it can confuse since the Enemy doesn't know if they're fighting you or the clone. When you switch, you don't actually "leap", you switch places.

Also, no there is no way for the Mesmer to leap towards his enemy with MH sword. Leap has been replaced with Blurred Frenzy, which is basically a damage/defense skill.

[asbasb]

Merryem, on 18 August 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Well, it can confuse since the Enemy doesn't know if they're fighting you or the clone. When you switch, you don't actually "leap", you switch places.

See, that's where my brain makes loop de loops. From an enemy PoV, if you see a Mesmer with a MH sword and he casts his ILeap, you know exactly that if a guy is leaping at you, it'll be a clone. Swap immobilized you, which tells you as the opponent that he swapped places with his clone. My question was how you could use ILeap to confuse an enemy(as it was initially advertized) without having access to an alternate skill that looks exactly the same from an enemy's PoV?

[Elrathan]

It can be used as a feint  in pvp. Just use the skill but don't swap. Your opponent may waste an escape skill because he thinks you're using it to set up blurred frenzy. That or just use it to cripple enemies so you can escape. Plus, PvE mobs are stupid enough to attack the illusion sometimes which can buy you even more escape time.

[ensoriki]

That statement was made before the inclusion of Blurred Frenzy so it no longer applies.

[bonn]

No one really gets confused by clones anyway. ctrl+t ftw.

[asbasb]

Elrathan, on 18 August 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

It can be used as a feint  in pvp. Just use the skill but don't swap. Your opponent may waste an escape skill because he thinks you're using it to set up blurred frenzy. That or just use it to cripple enemies so you can escape. Plus, PvE mobs are stupid enough to attack the illusion sometimes which can buy you even more escape time.

Well yea, PvE with it's AI is another pair of shoes, but I was talking about PvP. So, apart from the pretty much universal tactic of setting up a combo and not executing it, which is a viable strategy for every profession, the actual clone doesn't add any additional confusion value.

ensoriki, on 18 August 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

That statement was made before the inclusion of Blurred Frenzy so it no longer applies.

I'm trying to assert how much truth the official profession description, especially the first sentence holds.

Quote

Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon.

Leap/ILeap was once the in game embodiment of this description, and I was curious if it could still be somehow used to really make your opponent doubt whether he's fighting the real Mesmer. I guess you can't anymore.

Edited by asbasb, 18 August 2012 - 02:52 PM.

[Phys]

asbasb, on 18 August 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Hey,

way back when Leap and ILeap for the Mesmer were still separate skills, the devs advertized this as one of the examples of how Mesmers could confuse(not the condition) their enemy, as skill two and three looked identical from an opponent's point of view. Now that they have been combined into one, I fail to understand how this skill could be used to make your enemy doubt whether he's fighting the real Mesmer or a clone. The skill always sends a clone out first and on second activation always teleports and immobilizes the target. Is there another way for the Mesmer to leap towards his enemy with a MH sword equipped? Am I missing something?

i think swap has no graphical effect, but i am not certain.
if this is the case, then it will be sort of hard for them to tell if you used swap or not, however swap has a unique effect of immobilize so if they notice they got immobilized, probably not

[spelley]

iLeap + Swap is, as you say, no longer the go-to example of Mesmer's confusion capabilities (although, as always, people might blow a CD trying to escape the clone if they think you are going to setup Blurred Frenzy). I'd say the new go-to examples would be Phase Retreat (thought you had me, now you don't), Decoy (same) and Mirror Images (which is the real me?). Simply put, things have changed enough that the dev's statement is no longer really valid. Not that I disparage their choice of giving us Blurred Frenzy, which we definitely needed.

[Flailers]

Well you have to understand arena there, it's kinda like "Mesmer uses clones to trick the enemy". But than they remove the damage of the clones, because it's to hard for players to tell who's the real Mesmer. The only time I ever saw people get tricked is with Decoy, but clones only take so much damage bevor they die. Really wouldn't count on the class Mechanic that is static like that to trick people that actually pay attention to the game. t will never change unless clones copy your hp / boons / conditions and start to use some skills and move around more. Wouldn't matter if those skills do no damage, but that would be a bit more convincing to say the least.

[Culture Shock]

I think you have to pay very close attention when fighting a Mesmer, more so than other classes because with a simple cloak during a big fight with other effects going on you are suddenly fighting nothing but clones while the Mesmer is on the other side of the map.  This is still deception.  There is also a trait to make yourself shatter when your clones do.  A simply cloak during that shatter and your foe is dumbfounded.

I think it requires being subtle and not straight forward.

Edited by Culture Shock, 18 August 2012 - 04:03 PM.

[Vincent]

asbasb, on 18 August 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

See, that's where my brain makes loop de loops. From an enemy PoV, if you see a Mesmer with a MH sword and he casts his ILeap, you know exactly that if a guy is leaping at you, it'll be a clone. Swap immobilized you, which tells you as the opponent that he swapped places with his clone. My question was how you could use ILeap to confuse an enemy(as it was initially advertized) without having access to an alternate skill that looks exactly the same from an enemy's PoV?

You actually understand mesmer skills, that's your "problem." The whole confusion aspect of the mesmers is completely dependent on the skill level of the person you're fighting. ILeap is a very easy skill to counter because, as you said, the clone will leap, not you. It is a definite action for a relative consequence. I wouldn't use it right away, but because of how clones work, they are much more viable when the enemy is distracted or is focused on a larger objective (i.e. team fighting).

[el hefe]

asbasb, on 18 August 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Hey,

way back when Leap and ILeap for the Mesmer were still separate skills, the devs advertized this as one of the examples of how Mesmers could confuse(not the condition) their enemy, as skill two and three looked identical from an opponent's point of view. Now that they have been combined into one, I fail to understand how this skill could be used to make your enemy doubt whether he's fighting the real Mesmer or a clone. The skill always sends a clone out first and on second activation always teleports and immobilizes the target. Is there another way for the Mesmer to leap towards his enemy with a MH sword equipped? Am I missing something?

maybe you've never used both skills while in melee range.    

[Nibiru23]

Culture Shock, on 18 August 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

I think you have to pay very close attention when fighting a Mesmer, more so than other classes because with a simple cloak during a big fight with other effects going on you are suddenly fighting nothing but clones while the Mesmer is on the other side of the map.  This is still deception.  There is also a trait to make yourself shatter when your clones do.  A simply cloak during that shatter and your foe is dumbfounded.

I think it requires being subtle and not straight forward.

Clones are easy to kill, they dont use OH weapons ( dont work as deception), they do no damage ( some apply conditions), shatter do little damage. Unless you use traits like apply conditions on death i dont know how can they be usefull.

[asbasb]

el hefe, on 18 August 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

maybe you've never used both skills while in melee range.

Point taken.

[Culture Shock]

Nibiru23, on 18 August 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Clones are easy to kill, they dont use OH weapons ( dont work as deception), they do no damage ( some apply conditions), shatter do little damage. Unless you use traits like apply conditions on death i dont know how can they be usefull.

I think the main thing to know is that clones were stripped down to no damage "after" BWE1, so this whole shatter fodder thing is still in the making.  The first major changes Mesmer has gotten since it's reveal just happened in the last two stress tests.  Jon Peters has posted on this forum that he did not have time to work on polishing the Mesmer during all of the betas.  So we will see if any other changes are made to give clones more attitude.

I fought very hard against the "damageless" clone change, and then Eric Flannum was in an interview saying that clones are being taken in that direction on purpose.  So the added damage they can absorb is a great change, and you can't really discount that killing a clone means the Mesmer is not injured at all.  They are our tanks if nothing else, but since they can spread conditions and cripple they add some control and damage besides just being shatter fodder.

One more thing to note is that phantasms can be cast in your rotations of clones.  So clones provide meat shields while the phantasms do the real damage.  This explains whey they gave clones more health in the last changes.

Edited by Culture Shock, 18 August 2012 - 04:32 PM.

[el hefe]

god i can't wait til Saturday to play this profession.  im literally giddy like a school girl.

[auxili]

Deception isn't the name of the game, it's minion bombing.

[pojoman42]

also using swap for defense is pretty sweet, but it is not as reliable.

i use it all the time to teleport away from enemy dps to another target. then pop a invisibility or dodge roll to make another clone. Lots of fast movement via teleports and some invisibility with some dodge roll clones can make for some good defense.


also the cone that you make with Leap is instant cast and gets to target really quick with a snare, so even if you dont use swap its still a quick daze if you shatter the clone. More likely to hit target as well.

[Nuu]

asbasb, on 18 August 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Hey,

way back when Leap and ILeap for the Mesmer were still separate skills, the devs advertized this as one of the examples of how Mesmers could confuse(not the condition) their enemy, as skill two and three looked identical from an opponent's point of view. Now that they have been combined into one, I fail to understand how this skill could be used to make your enemy doubt whether he's fighting the real Mesmer or a clone. The skill always sends a clone out first and on second activation always teleports and immobilizes the target. Is there another way for the Mesmer to leap towards his enemy with a MH sword equipped? Am I missing something?

in short, it doesn't confuse now. And it's purpose has changed. They see the effect when you change (I think.....) so i don't even know if there's much to do now.