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So, dual pistols? How are they?


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#1 Aizea

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:24 AM

So I did not get a whole lot of time to experiment with thieves beyond the first BWE, and I'm wondering how dual pistol stacks up to the other options?

#2 Powerwordfu

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:17 AM

View PostAizea, on 20 August 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

So I did not get a whole lot of time to experiment with thieves beyond the first BWE, and I'm wondering how dual pistol stacks up to the other options?

It seems people feel P/P is lacking at the moment compared with P/D or S/P. P/P doesn't offer enough utility in its spells, and its damage was nerfed I believe.

#3 auxili

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:18 AM

Without the shortbow, the thief is less mobile than some other professions. So, yeah.
Thieves essentially lose a part of their profession that Anet balances around - speed and mobility - so make sure you equip the Sbow. If you don't, it's like a dagger/dagger elementalist never using ride the lightning, or an engineer never using a kit.

It's not like choosing hammer vs sword for a Guardian. The Shortbow is where a huge chunk of the Thief's speed and mobility comes from, it's essentially a second essential utility bar in that sense.

This doesn't mean it's overpowered, not at all. What it means is the thief depends too heavily on it's functionality in order to stay relevant as a profession.

Edited by auxili, 20 August 2012 - 05:21 AM.


#4 Zwapan

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:47 AM

View PostAizea, on 20 August 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

So I did not get a whole lot of time to experiment with thieves beyond the first BWE, and I'm wondering how dual pistol stacks up to the other options?

currently there are 2 threads about pistol pistol builds. both with very different, but imo still viable builds.
i have a shortbow as second weapon, but thats not just for infiltrators arrow. it is my multiple target alternative.

i played my build a lot in BWE3 and 2nd august stress test and it worked great.

#5 MikeT

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:14 AM

View Postauxili, on 20 August 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

Without the shortbow, the thief is less mobile than some other professions. So, yeah.
Thieves essentially lose a part of their profession that Anet balances around - speed and mobility - so make sure you equip the Sbow. If you don't, it's like a dagger/dagger elementalist never using ride the lightning, or an engineer never using a kit.

It's not like choosing hammer vs sword for a Guardian. The Shortbow is where a huge chunk of the Thief's speed and mobility comes from, it's essentially a second essential utility bar in that sense.

This doesn't mean it's overpowered, not at all. What it means is the thief depends too heavily on it's functionality in order to stay relevant as a profession.
mmh, I can see that. To make matters even more difficult: shortbow is the only viable option vs multiple opponents.
You need a viable AoE weapon.

#6 ZCKS

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:21 AM

View Postauxili, on 20 August 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

Without the shortbow, the thief is less mobile than some other professions. So, yeah.
Thieves essentially lose a part of their profession that Anet balances around - speed and mobility - so make sure you equip the Sbow. If you don't, it's like a dagger/dagger elementalist never using ride the lightning, or an engineer never using a kit.

It's not like choosing hammer vs sword for a Guardian. The Shortbow is where a huge chunk of the Thief's speed and mobility comes from, it's essentially a second essential utility bar in that sense.

This doesn't mean it's overpowered, not at all. What it means is the thief depends too heavily on it's functionality in order to stay relevant as a profession.

The speed/mobility lost can easily be made up for by using the sword as a main hand weapon in your second weapon set tanks to infiltrator's strike (which can also be used with shadow return to remove a condition off of you).

Also by using the sword as a main hand in your other weapon set you can acces to a 2 second cripple & weakness with it's attack chain which can do wonders for keeping your enemy in range & reducing the ammount of damage they deal.

At any rate I wouldn't get too used to how the thief is now as arena.net has admitted they are broken and will pretty much be rebuilt.
Hopefully next go around they can make them better able to maintain damage & survivability over the course of a fight instead of being insane burst or die.

#7 auxili

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:25 AM

View PostZCKS, on 20 August 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

At any rate I wouldn't get too used to how the thief is now as arena.net has admitted they are broken and will pretty much be rebuilt.
To guests and members who read this, this is not at all what Anet said. Anet said they'll be working on Thieves to give them more viable builds, since they need more work in that area. No mention or implication of a 'rebuild' in any way, shape, or form. Nor is it needed. Cheers.

#8 MikeT

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:31 AM

View PostZCKS, on 20 August 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

<...>
At any rate I wouldn't get too used to how the thief is now as arena.net has admitted they are broken and will pretty much be rebuilt.
Hopefully next go around they can make them better able to maintain damage & survivability over the course of a fight instead of being insane burst or die.
Where did you get that from? Please give me a source for that.
Jon Peters talked about mesmer, necro & thief needing some love not a 'rebuild'. And nothing was said about any profession being broken. Jon simply acknowledged that some professions need more viable builds...

View Postauxili, on 20 August 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

To guests and members who read this, this is not at all what Anet said. Anet said they'll be working on Thieves to give them more viable builds, since they need more work in that area. No mention or implication of a 'rebuild' in any way, shape, or form. Nor is it needed. Cheers.
exactly. That's what I read too.

#9 ZCKS

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:36 AM

Maybe "rebuild" is a bit more then what he meant.

But they are definitely going to get a decent number of abilities & traits changed for the better.


Hopefully in the process that opens the door for more styles of play then just burst everything to death in 5 seconds or die.

#10 auxili

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:07 PM

Then say that mate, misinformation for the sake of getting a point across isn't good. People come here when they search for things. These forums come up in google searches, and as soon as you start saying incorrect things based on "what the dev maybe might have meant, even though he didn't say it", that's how rumours are spread. I've been mislead in the past by overly dramatic posts passing themselves off as fact, and it's no good. :P

#11 jeff23

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:27 PM

When did anet say they would work on thieves?  Was it recent?  Post the official links.

#12 Deeja04

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:41 PM

View Postauxili, on 20 August 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

The Shortbow is where a huge chunk of the Thief's speed and mobility comes from, it's essentially a second essential utility bar in that sense.

Strongly disagree, I use P/P and S/P and have plenty mobility. Utility shadowstep / shadow return, roll for initiative, acrobatics traits, infiltrator's strike / shadow return, steal, steal traits that give vigor and swiftness. All of your posts say shortbow is required on the thief, that's a very disheartening thought process.

View PostMikeT, on 20 August 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

mmh, I can see that. To make matters even more difficult: shortbow is the only viable option vs multiple opponents.
You need a viable AoE weapon.

So to be viable against multiple opponents you need to be doing AoE damage? I'm not sure I follow your logic.

@OP, dual pistols may not be the strongest option but they are still strong and far from being nonviable. Try it for yourself and see if you like it, you shouldn't let others make such a decision for you. Also my YT channel has a ton of dual pistol PvP videos you should check it out it may help you with your decision: http://www.youtube.c...04?feature=mhee

Edited by Deeja04, 20 August 2012 - 04:50 PM.


#13 RawNG

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:58 PM

View PostDeeja04, on 20 August 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Strongly disagree, I use P/P and S/P and have plenty mobility. Utility shadowstep / shadow return, roll for initiative, acrobatics traits, infiltrator's strike / shadow return, steal, steal traits that give vigor and swiftness. All of your posts say shortbow is required on the thief, that's a very disheartening thought process.



So to be viable against multiple opponents you need to be doing AoE damage? I'm not sure I follow your logic.
i couldnt agree more!  i run d/d s/p and have no issues with mobility.   also playing sbow is REALLY boring and dull.

Edited by RawNG, 20 August 2012 - 04:59 PM.


#14 Drekor

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:48 PM

If you build for it P/P does an epic ton of damage. It's probably the highest ranged DPS set in the game. The problem is that's kinda all it does. It's crazy heavy on the initiative use so you can't really use initiative for other things like utility (daze, blind etc etc).

#15 MikeT

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:05 PM

View PostDrekor, on 20 August 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

If you build for it P/P does an epic ton of damage. It's probably the highest ranged DPS set in the game. The problem is that's kinda all it does. It's crazy heavy on the initiative use so you can't really use initiative for other things like utility (daze, blind etc etc).
Unload with 5 ini is very costly indeed. But with its high damage it sounds fair (opportunity cost).
Can you link some video footage? I want to get a better impression what it does. Thanks.

#16 Drekor

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:11 PM

View PostMikeT, on 20 August 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

Unload with 5 ini is very costly indeed. But with its high damage it sounds fair (opportunity cost).
Can you link some video footage? I want to get a better impression what it does. Thanks.
If you let me into the game I'll get you some footage sure! :)

The key to the build is the initiative regen, you can get usually around 1.8-2.5/s depending on procs but again that's all you're doing. You're entire build, utilities and resources are going into spamming that one ability. It's not really a competitive build but it'd be fun to stomp noobs with in spvp.

#17 MikeT

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:25 PM

View PostDeeja04, on 20 August 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

<...>
So to be viable against multiple opponents you need to be doing AoE damage? I'm not sure I follow your logic.

@OP, dual pistols may not be the strongest option but they are still strong and far from being nonviable. Try it for yourself and see if you like it, you shouldn't let others make such a decision for you. Also my YT channel has a ton of dual pistol PvP videos you should check it out it may help you with your decision: http://www.youtube.c...04?feature=mhee
mmh. my wording was a bit off. I admit that I had PvE fights in mind with groups of enemies.  For these kind of fights I see the shortbow as the most effective weapon: you can kite and hit multiple foes, even with #1.
Fighting vs. multiple foes with melee attacks seems a lot harder. Though sword can hit 3 foes now and LDB (dagger) is AoE also.
I think its a lot easier with range AoE. Maybe I underestimate the evasion molded in a lot of melee attacks? Haven't got much PvP experience yet.

I watched one of your videos with thief using double pistol. You seem to be a capable player and I would be glad if you share some tactics versus multiple opponents without using shortbow.

respect!

Edited by MikeT, 20 August 2012 - 09:53 PM.


#18 Asbourne

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:31 PM

unload either needs a secondary effect or an evade(i think almost every dual skill we have now can evade except this one). perhaps stick vulnerability(maybe a stack per succesful hit) in with unload(make body shot give weakness or something instead).

#19 Outt

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 10:40 PM

View PostDeeja04, on 20 August 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Strongly disagree, I use P/P and S/P and have plenty mobility. Utility shadowstep / shadow return, roll for initiative, acrobatics traits, infiltrator's strike / shadow return, steal, steal traits that give vigor and swiftness. All of your posts say shortbow is required on the thief, that's a very disheartening thought process.



So to be viable against multiple opponents you need to be doing AoE damage? I'm not sure I follow your logic.

@OP, dual pistols may not be the strongest option but they are still strong and far from being nonviable. Try it for yourself and see if you like it, you shouldn't let others make such a decision for you. Also my YT channel has a ton of dual pistol PvP videos you should check it out it may help you with your decision: http://www.youtube.c...04?feature=mhee

I was building the same thing, using S/P as my offset, just since PW acts about the same as Unload, but the more I thought about it, what do you think of using S/D instead of S/P?  You lose damage from PW, but then again you're basically just using it as a utility option anyway when you switch to your offset, and S/D offers a ranged cripple and an evade in Flanking Strike if need be, while still giving you condition removal in Inf Strike(and an immobilize) and some multi target viability with Sword #1.  Granted with Shortbow you get a Cripple + Backstep and a aimed Shadowstep, as well as a poison field and Blast finisher.  So, I don't think SB is required, but it's very helpful, but S/P or S/D seem like both could be good options.

S/D also offers Cloak n Dagger for a stealth escape, and I trait into Infusion of Shadow so it's not as costly to use as a reposition or to confuse the enemy.

#20 Psikerlord

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:47 AM

The key to dual pistols is topping with lots of stealth to cook up some sweet sneak attack pistol 1, which are mini-unloads + bleed for zero calories. Season with liberal shadow arts, like gain init on stealth, gain might on stealth, and so on, and you get one very tasty sniper snack. And that's without your extra weapon set. Enjoy.

#21 Quantum Chaos

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:59 AM

View PostPsikerlord, on 21 August 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

The key to dual pistols is topping with lots of stealth to cook up some sweet sneak attack pistol 1, which are mini-unloads + bleed for zero calories. Season with liberal shadow arts, like gain init on stealth, gain might on stealth, and so on, and you get one very tasty sniper snack. And that's without your extra weapon set. Enjoy.


EDIT: I see what you did there.

Edited by Quantum Chaos, 21 August 2012 - 05:01 AM.


#22 Deeja04

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:06 AM

View PostOutt, on 20 August 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

I was building the same thing, using S/P as my offset, just since PW acts about the same as Unload, but the more I thought about it, what do you think of using S/D instead of S/P?  You lose damage from PW, but then again you're basically just using it as a utility option anyway when you switch to your offset, and S/D offers a ranged cripple and an evade in Flanking Strike if need be, while still giving you condition removal in Inf Strike(and an immobilize) and some multi target viability with Sword #1.  Granted with Shortbow you get a Cripple + Backstep and a aimed Shadowstep, as well as a poison field and Blast finisher.  So, I don't think SB is required, but it's very helpful, but S/P or S/D seem like both could be good options.

S/D also offers Cloak n Dagger for a stealth escape, and I trait into Infusion of Shadow so it's not as costly to use as a reposition or to confuse the enemy.

S/P is just looking ridiculously strong right now, with the immobilize on infiltrator's strike pistol whips are easier to land. They also buffed the damage on pistol whip I was doing ~5-6k with a knight's amulet. And since I use signet of malice the healing from pistol whip is nice.

Edited by Deeja04, 21 August 2012 - 05:09 AM.


#23 Esoterikk

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:34 AM

As it stands you are gimping yourself not having S/P as one of your weapons.

#24 Deeja04

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:39 AM

View PostMikeT, on 20 August 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

mmh. my wording was a bit off. I admit that I had PvE fights in mind with groups of enemies.  For these kind of fights I see the shortbow as the most effective weapon: you can kite and hit multiple foes, even with #1.
Fighting vs. multiple foes with melee attacks seems a lot harder. Though sword can hit 3 foes now and LDB (dagger) is AoE also.
I think its a lot easier with range AoE. Maybe I underestimate the evasion molded in a lot of melee attacks? Haven't got much PvP experience yet.

I watched one of your videos with thief using double pistol. You seem to be a capable player and I would be glad if you share some tactics versus multiple opponents without using shortbow.

respect!

Well, I think the damage of P/P vs. shortbow against 2 targets is comparable. Against 3 or more the shortbow easily does more but you probably won't be against more than 2 or 3 people at a time in a tournament game. Shortbow has a poison field and blast finisher, pistols have a daze and smoke field. I think a lot of people underestimate black powder, engineers are the only other profession with a smoke field. By myself and I can be applying a lot of blinds but with team coordination and making sure I'm with someone else with physical projectile finishers we can make sure our target is lucky to land a hit. Or I can pump out big damage on a single target. And like I said before I have no problem with mobility or kiting with my build, although disabling shot is pretty ridiculously good but it also cost 4 initiative. I really think the shortbow's trick shot is going to nerfed it bounces so many times at 100% damage each bounce (please correct me if I'm wrong).

I hope to get some quality footage during tomorrow's stress test unfortunately I still need 3 more people for a tournament team

Edited by Deeja04, 21 August 2012 - 05:46 AM.


#25 auxili

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:47 AM

View PostEsoterikk, on 21 August 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

As it stands you are gimping yourself not having S/P as one of your weapons.
Simply not true. I'm not sure how people are getting fired up enough to make brash statements like this, but it's unfounded.

#26 Deeja04

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:55 AM

I also forgot to mention since I can't seem to edit my post that dual pistols paired with signet of malice offers a formidable sustain, which corresponds with the rest of my build (sigil of blood, shadow refuge, daggerstorm) to keep me in fights forever.

#27 Psikerlord

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:57 AM

hmm shall have to check that out

#28 The Prestige

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:24 PM

Pistol/Pistol damage is very low with the recent nerfs. Too low.

Edited by The Prestige, 21 August 2012 - 04:25 PM.


#29 Dermot

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:27 PM

View PostThe Prestige, on 21 August 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

Pistol/Pistol damage is very low with the recent nerfs. Too low.

Not sure why you mean? It's unchanged from BWE3...

#30 The Prestige

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:34 PM

View PostDermot, on 21 August 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

Not sure why you mean? It's unchanged from BWE3...

I am talking about BWE3 damage. BWE1 the damage was perfect.




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