187 replies to this topic

[Mockingjay74]

Murderer, on 23 December 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

Do sylvari even have sexual organs? Also wouldn't the feel of a gross tree person turn off your human?

Yes, Ree has stated in an interview... I think it was the one for the German website, although I can't find it for some reason. They do have sexual organs, although they don't procreate - Sylvari are only created when they spawn out of the Pale Tree (or, if you're Malyck, a separate tree).

[Archduke]

Lordkrall, on 23 December 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

Or maybe they simply don't want to force homosexuality into the game just to have it there?
If they put homosexual couples everywhere people would complain about how they only added homosexual couples to cater to the gay-community and so on.

No matter how they did it people would complain about it.

^True this.

I just wish ArenaNet would approach the homosexuality thing as a normal and civil occurance instead of using the Sylvari as a scapegoat. There is nothing to fear from it. A lot of people think gays are that way just to get attention. Not true. You have no idea how many of us just wish we could blend in and be considered normal without all the finger pointing and talking and making the headlines and creating a wave of dispute when a state or country legalizes gay marriage.

But like Lordkrall said, no matter what they do people will complain about it. I just wish they had a footing and made a statement like "It's here, it's done and nothing will change." While I definately do not agree with the idea of "forcing" homosexuality on anyone, I do wish we had more gay couples with other races. It would make me smile so hardcore and put butterflies in my stomach to see a gay charr couple. Gay people go through and see straight relationships in movies, games, media and stories constantly, every day and hour. Throwing in a quick gay one here and there won't kill anyone. Or at least it shouldn't.

Can I also say how happy I am to see this being discussed civilly? I first avoided this thread, even if I am gay because I wasn't up for slams, insults and arguments of which I thought I would find here. Thanks GURU!

Edited by Archduke, 24 December 2012 - 05:15 AM.

[Quorrah]

Archduke, on 24 December 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

**Good stuff**

Can I also say how happy I am to see this being discussed civilly? I first avoided this thread, even if I am gay because I wasn't up for slams, insults and arguments of which I thought I would find here. Thanks GURU!

Aw! We love you too. (Had to use my own plz smiley after I saw yours!)

Arguments and fights breaking out over this topic really shouldn't happen and it's really nobodies business about who falls in love with who. But it does. Way to go Guru for being the civil gamers that you are and rising above the high class society and politics!

*high 5*

Also I'm pretty dang sure the Sylvari have sexual organs. I rememer reading it too. How the Pale Tree knows what they look like is another story. -lol rawr-

Question: Someone mentioned the Tengu. Wonder where they fit in all of this? I don't recall even seeing female Tengu. Or maybe I just overlook them when I play? Not that I come across them very often. I know in GW1 they were all male. Weren't they? Are the Tengu a mono-gender race?

[draxynnic]

There is one known female tengu in Factions, although she uses the same model as the males. The description in the Factions manual indicates that female tengu are larger than the males, while the males tend to have brighter and more extravagant plumage.

While I can't put my hand on the interview right now, I also recall one of ArenaNet's lore people saying that sylvari do have functional sexual organs, at least to the level of being functional for pleasure, but do not bear children (or, at least, if they do, they don't reach reproductive maturity until they're older than the oldest living sylvari currently).

I'm pretty sure that ArenaNet has said that homosexuality is something that exists in Tyria, and it's not something they're either avoiding or looking to draw attention to. However, there are a couple of things that make it more obvious among the sylvari. The first is that because sylvari don't reproduce, they don't have the drive to reproduce influencing their sexuality, and thus likely have a higher proportion of homosexuals to begin with.

The second, though, is that each race's stories have a different 'flavour'. Human stories are based on politics and intrigue. Norn are high adventure. Charr are military steampunk and asura are mad scientists, while the sylvari stories are on the style of Arthurian romance, with the Pale Tree standing in for the Lady of the Lake.

"Romance", here, is the key to why we see more homosexual sylvari romances - because I'd be inclined to say we see more sylvari romances period. I can't think of any storylines for the charr, humans or norn that involve a couple in a romantic relationship (unless you count Lord Faren hitting on anything in a skirt) and only one for the asura, while for the sylvari you see them in two out of three of the initial arcs, and in one of those arcs it's the primary focus. It may be that we've seen more homosexual sylvari relationships simply because we've seen more sylvari relationships period.

[Cube]

I absolutely think homosexuality, and other types of gender identities/love relationships relevant to the races would be accepted.

Love is love.

Oh and yeah, Sylvari have sexual organs. Or at least I think so, if they mean sex as in penetration and not other definitions of sex. "while sylvari can and do have sex, it is not for reproduction as sylvari can only be born from the Pale Tree." http://wiki.guildwar...om/wiki/Sylvari

Edited by Cube, 24 December 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[CalmLittleBuddy]

Where there are humans, there are homosexual humans. It's a fact. Now, seeing as how the other races have a human intellect (they use verbal communication, math, song etc etc) I would assume there are gays of every race. How tolerant the different societies would be of homosexuals... no clue.

But this is a game so I'd like to believe that the creators of the content wouldn't add any intolerant races or homophobic overtones. It's a game after all. No one wants to play a game that Makes them feel excluded. Too much of that in real life. This is supposed to be a safe social place (yeah, I know, I see map chat and am disgusted by the bigotry I see there at times, but some folks are idiots).

The great thing about RP is you can be whoever you want. I don't think you need an in game justification to play a homosexual character.

[Gerroh]

draxynnic, on 24 December 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

However, there are a couple of things that make it more obvious among the sylvari. The first is that because sylvari don't reproduce, they don't have the drive to reproduce influencing their sexuality, and thus likely have a higher proportion of homosexuals to begin with.

I remember reading something Anet posted on sylvari. Sylvari don't totally understand the point of genders and all that, so they're all(or at least the vast majority) bisexual. That'd be why we see a fairly equal proportion of homo and hetero relationships among sylvari.

draxynnic, on 24 December 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

It may be that we've seen more homosexual sylvari relationships simply because we've seen more sylvari relationships period.

Bingo.


PS: I always assumed Eir was a lesbian.
PPS: I've also heard a number of NPCs mention the homosexual thing, catching phrases like "it's not wrong, it's just they way they are", and "they were just born that way" during my random adventures. However, I haven't heard these in awhile, so maybe they were removed at some point, or just in beta. Can't even remember if I heard them in beta or just after launch.
PPPS: Logan's definitely in the closet.

Edited by Gerroh, 24 December 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[BuddhaKeks]

Gerroh, on 24 December 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

PS: I always assumed Eir was a lesbian.
PPS: I've also heard a number of NPCs mention the homosexual thing, catching phrases like "it's not wrong, it's just they way they are", and "they were just born that way" during my random adventures. However, I haven't heard these in awhile, so maybe they were removed at some point, or just in beta. Can't even remember if I heard them in beta or just after launch.
PPPS: Logan's definitely in the closet.

I never got that vibe from Eir. She might be though.
I can't recall any NPCs making statements like this, I only remember every freaking NPC being in love with those Sylvari. Seriously, all races seem to have certain things they don't like about each other, but everyone loves Sylvari. The whole race is nothing but a Mary-Sue.
Logan is in love with Jennah, so he is bi at best. However don't confuse him being a total wuss with being gay.

[Lysand]

at the risk of not really contributing much to the conversation, I'd argue that the sylvari are actually pansexual - "Sexually attracted or open to all people regardless of gender, gender identity, or sexual orientation." - as opposed to hetero/homo/bisexual, as I can't recall ever having seen sylvari actually discussing gender preference - because gender doesn't matter to them!

and it's a logical progression, considering they're unable to reproduce between themselves and sex, for them, is just for fun. they're not sexually super special snowflakes for the sake of it, or because anet wants to be inclusive and politically correct - it just makes sense given their circumstances.

Edited by Lysand, 24 December 2012 - 08:26 PM.

[Mockingjay74]

Lysand, on 24 December 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

at the risk of not really contributing much to the conversation, I'd argue that the sylvari are actually pansexual - "Sexually attracted or open to all people regardless of gender, gender identity, or sexual orientation." - as opposed to hetero/homo/bisexual, as I can't recall ever having seen sylvari actually discussing gender preference - because gender doesn't matter to them!

and it's a logical progression, considering they're unable to reproduce between themselves and sex, for them, is just for fun. they're not sexually super special snowflakes for the sake of it, or because anet wants to be inclusive and politically correct - it just makes sense given their circumstances.

You're correct, they don't really care about anything other than true love. There are quite a few heterosexual Sylvari couples, and I don't think there are more homosexual Sylvari relationships than hetero. It's just something that people often overlook. For example, Morrigu and her lover in one of the Twilight Arbor paths that I can't remember the name of.

[Gerroh]

BuddhaKeks, on 24 December 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

I can't recall any NPCs making statements like this, I only remember every freaking NPC being in love with those Sylvari. Seriously, all races seem to have certain things they don't like about each other, but everyone loves Sylvari. The whole race is nothing but a Mary-Sue.

Well I can only recall two instances of this, and my memory's fuzzy on both. One was in Metrica Province, and I believe it was near the hylek village in the South area of Metrica. The other one was possibly in Lornar's Pass, or some snowy norn area. It was a female norn trying to explain the thing to a male norn.
I'll try to find the Metrica Province one again, but I really don't know where to even begin looking with the norn one.

BuddhaKeks, on 24 December 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

Logan is in love with Jennah, so he is bi at best. However don't confuse him being a total wuss with being gay.

nononononono.
The reason I said "in the closet" and not "outright gay" is because (he thinks) he's in love with Jennah. I'm convinced Logan's gay because I refuse to believe a straight man would ever take such delicate care of his hair. =P

[XgreatArtist]

Gerroh, on 24 December 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

Well I can only recall two instances of this, and my memory's fuzzy on both. One was in Metrica Province, and I believe it was near the hylek village in the South area of Metrica. The other one was possibly in Lornar's Pass, or some snowy norn area. It was a female norn trying to explain the thing to a male norn.
I'll try to find the Metrica Province one again, but I really don't know where to even begin looking with the norn one.




nononononono.
The reason I said "in the closet" and not "outright gay" is because (he thinks) he's in love with Jennah. I'm convinced Logan's gay because I refuse to believe a straight man would ever take such delicate care of his hair. =P

well the spartans did too. They took care of their hair. But consider the fact the men tend to sleep with the younger boys(they dont consider young boys 'men' that time, more like 'feminine slightly'), i m not surprised.

Edited by XgreatArtist, 25 December 2012 - 12:57 AM.

[ReMarkable91]

It is mostly a case of surviving. There is a big war going on , the biggest priority is to make babies. It is not accepted to say hey I don't feel like making babies because i feel more attracted to male.

Edited by Mockingjay74, 25 December 2012 - 02:58 AM.
Removed non-contributory content.

[Lysand]

nothing in-game suggests that tyria's population feels strongly driven to reproduce, not even amongst the charr who are all about bolstering their military capacity. again, this doesn't even begin to apply to the sylvari because, from a reproductive standpoint, they're all (as far as we've been shown) neuter, while the norn are shown to engaged in their hedonism regardless of what's going on in the world around them - the battle against the elder dragons hasn't stopped them from throwing moots and getting outrageously drunk, and I really doubt it would stop them from having sex with whomsoever they please either.

Edited by Mockingjay74, 25 December 2012 - 02:59 AM.
Removed non-contributory content that was a response to a post that has now been edited.

[Mockingjay74]

This thread is starting to get a little bit snippy. Discussions about a topic like this can get a bit heated and people are often sensitive about the topic. That doesn't mean it's impossible to have a good discussion about it. Please remember that this is the lore forum, so quoting NPC's and actual events in-game is really awesome.

If there are any more snips, snaps or snarls or if there is any more mudslinging, I'll be locking this topic.

[Trei]

Gerroh, on 24 December 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

...
PS: I always assumed Eir was a lesbian...

No way, nuh uh, no.

Just look at the way she is stalking my male norn ranger with all the veiled love letters she keeps sending me in the ingame mail!

[Archduke]

draxynnic, on 24 December 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

**enlightening and true text**

Wow thanks for that. I hadn't thought of it that way before.

Gerroh, on 24 December 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

nononononono.
The reason I said "in the closet" and not "outright gay" is because (he thinks) he's in love with Jennah. I'm convinced Logan's gay because I refuse to believe a straight man would ever take such delicate care of his hair. =P

haha That was good. My hair is normally a big mess though to be honest. Ah, Logan and his hair. xD

ReMarkable91, on 25 December 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

It is mostly a case of surviving. There is a big war going on , the biggest priority is to make babies. It is not accepted to say hey I don't feel like making babies because i feel more attracted to male.

Not accepted, eh? Gimme your sources.
There may be a big war going on, but there are still parties and festivities going on in the high noble towers in Divinity's Reach, there are tons of side-races if you will that are not even involved with the war itself. Life goes on normally for many people in Tyria. Maybe on the verge of extinction but that still wouldn't stop a kiss between two men here and there.

Edited by Archduke, 25 December 2012 - 07:34 AM.

[draxynnic]

Indeed, none of the races have a 'we're at risk of extinction, time to breeeeeed!' feel to them.

None of the races, not even humans, have a feeling of slowly losing a battle of attrition. The ground humans have lost has been the result of catastrophe - the Searing, the Cataclysm, the tidal wave of Zhaitan's rise, the centaur invasion which seems to have started in the last five years - not any protracted wars of attrition over multiple generations. In fact, if anything, humans have a track record of winning or at least holding out against that sort of extended conflict as it is.

Looking at the other races... asura as a society seem pretty complacent - the PCs and other individuals recognise the threat posed by the dragon, but storylines such as the asura 20-30 storyline imply that the Arcane Council at least thinks they're Someone Else's Problem apart from the odd destroyer incursion. Norn just aren't going to let anyone else poke their nose into their relationships.

Charr might have an issue because their culture is thinking of everything as a military resource or an investment into a future military resource, but there's been no indication that they're feeling pressed for population. It might be a case that while they recognise that obviously there's a need for a future generation, producing that future generation is still something that requires at least one parent being removed from active duty for a period - as long as there are enough children going into the fahrars, the charr probably consider it a fair tradeoff for a charr to choose a lifestyle that does not result in children, when that lifestyle also means they're not likely to need to take parental leave at an inopportune time.

[Legion]

I don't care if non-reproductive sex is natural or not. What I wonder if it makes economic sense in a pre-modern world like Tyria. There's a reason why people had more children back then than today. In agricultural and early industrial societies, having many, many children was profitable and a guaranty of a future. You could send them to work at very young age, and when you retire they would take care of you. Also life, especially children lives were cheap with a considerable proportion of them never reaching adulthood even among rich families. In today's world of consumerism, nothing is more expensive than a child who will be still a child into his mid-20 and maybe even beyond. In today's world, having children is a luxury, not a necessity. Humans are no longer necessary in an industrialized world full of surplus where dying of starvation is no longer a genuine threat.

There's however at least one crucial part of the human population that could be outright hostile to anything outside heterosexuality. That proportion is the dominant social class: The nobles. Being a noble is all about creating and maintaining self-perpetuating dynasties. It is not important who you are, as much as who was your father of what genealogical tree you belong. In a world dominated by bloodlines, reproduction should be the priority. Kings and nobles who don't have heirs are in extremely vulnerable positions because their death is all that requires to bring the whole dynasty down. Having a child is a guaranty of continuity and immortality. Sure, it is just one group of the many that composes Tyria but it is the ruling class of mankind in Kryta. The ideas and values of any society are heavily influences by the dominant social class of the time.

Edited by Legion, 26 December 2012 - 10:11 PM.

[Lordkrall]

Rather interesting to claim that the nobles would be most against homosexuality when looking back to real world history when it is quite common for nobility and the leading caste to engage in homosexual activities.

[BuddhaKeks]

Lordkrall, on 26 December 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

Rather interesting to claim that the nobles would be most against homosexuality when looking back to real world history when it is quite common for nobility and the leading caste to engage in homosexual activities.

Ever heard of hypocrites? Let me give you an example, the popes in the middle ages said, monks should live in celibacy, they themselves however liked to have several concubines.

To clarify: You can be publicly against something, while doing it yourself behind closed doors

Edited by BuddhaKeks, 26 December 2012 - 10:43 PM.

[Legion]

They might have, but not in the sense of having it as your main partner. There's no room for love among nobles. Everything is linked by bloodlines and arranged marriages. Without a heir, you will be an extremly vulnerable target for assassination sine the conspirators don't need to take into account your children as well. Which is why I think that Queen Jennah's position is mind-blowing stupid.

[draxynnic]

Actually, there is some precedent - Queen Elizabeth held off from marrying in order to keep a lot of her male potential political opponents hoping she would marry them. Now, Elizabeth did have an heir, but it has been implied that there is another potential successor to the Krytan throne - it's possible that Jennah knows this and has the resulting relative security to pick a consort that's to her liking rather than needing a father of an heir RIGHT NOW (after all, the wrong consort could be just as disastrous as lacking an heir), while keeping the existence of an heir secret from all but those she trusts.

In the case of noble families... it's possible that they're expected to produce heirs to continue the family, but are free to do what they please once an heir has been produced.

[VanderBeltLegacy]

as noted the sylvari's are known to be "homo-sexaul", but are more a-sexaul, so more share a bond.

norn maybe, as Sons of Svannir DO NOT accept women into their group and will not tolerate them at all.

i don't see the charr being so accepting of the notion.

humans, yes, yes oh god yes, humans would do anything, as shown in the real world of today, i apply the same lore.

asuran, im a bit edgey on them accepting it.

not a homosexaul myself, but i have no problems with it, but honestly since you dont have a relationship in game, you can just pretend your character is what ever sexaul orientation you wan't, it saves the whole "it's fine by me vs it's against the bible" threads that will surface if this came into play.

[BuddhaKeks]

A relationship plotline would be very hard to do in a MMO anyway, although not impossible due to the personal storyline. I personally think that should be kept for offline rpgs, especially since I saw what they did with the Gwen - Kieran plotline in Hearts of the North. Okay, I hate Gwen, I admit it, liking a storyline based around her, is impossible for me, but even on an objective level, it wasn't really good.

However I just had another thought. I know the races can't interbreed, but they could technically still be couples, couldn't they? Are there any interracial couples in the game? I mean human - norn, isn't much of a stretch, they look the same, sans the difference in height, so you can assume they think the same things are attractive. And GW1 shows us norn that are interested in marrying our human PC.

And what about human - sylvari? Sylvari are said to fall in love with someone regardless of the gender, but regardless of the race too? I think a human could find an sylvari attractive in a "close enough" kind of way.

[Mockingjay74]

I'm pretty sure there's a sylvari/human relationship somewhere, although I can't remember if that was a roleplayer thread I saw or an actual relationship.

I guess if you follow the logic being used about Sylvari relationships, if one person is so in love with another, that "another" would probably follow suit. I'm sorry, I'm bringing Twilight into this, where the werewolves "imprint" on someone, and by whatever chance, that other someone is "destined" to love them back, something like that. That gets into destinies and fate and stuff, which is probably too huge for this topic.

[Featherman]

I find forced sexuality, heterosexual or homosexual, to often be ham handed in videogames. The sylvari's is no exception in this case, it's not the fact that such relationships exists, it's the fact that they make an effort for us to know. An example of a good portrayal of relationship is the pair of tourists in Wizards Fief (Kexxex Hills) in all but maybe 4 quick random dialogue boxes you learn more about them and the depth of their relationship than the Sylvari couple in the Green Knight story line, and it was done tastefully.

As for the topic, do Sylvari even reproduce seeing as how they awaken from the tree? If not then, the ambiguity (due to the lack of need to procreate) of their sexuality would definitely allow for it.

Edited by Featherman, 27 December 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[beadnbutter32]

Acidicore, on 20 August 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

Sylvari do have genitals, remember reading it on a reddit somewhere.

Funny thing, I read the exact opposite both here and at reddit, that Sylvari do not/can not procreate sexually, and hence have no sexual/reproductive bits.

[Nalano]

beadnbutter32, on 27 December 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Funny thing, I read the exact opposite both here and at reddit, that Sylvari do not/can not procreate sexually, and hence have no sexual/reproductive bits.

To quote ArenaNet right off their own wiki:

Romance and sex is practiced among the sylvari, disregarding gender between those involved.

I'd like to point out that sylvari are not asexual, as asexuality means they're not interested in sex. A more accurate term would be pansexual. This also means that they would have no opinion on hetero- or homosexuality, as they are neither of those, finding attraction as they do in individuals, not genders.

Edited by Nalano, 27 December 2012 - 02:22 PM.

[Kokocat]

You may want to quote that snag from the wiki and make it the first line in every post when this discussion comes up because I've seen in this particular topic across several forums short-term memory loss. Why?  Because 3-7 pages into discussion, people STILL BELIEVE Sylvari don't have sexual genitalia just because they can't have children. They bring it up again and again that the conversation circles around in a whirlpool of trying to prove the misinformed person wrong. And someone is bound to bring up the "They lack genitalia" misinformation about 3 more pages down in this discussion..

Back on topic, I'm going to comment on Mocking's statement. But seriously Twilight? C'mon.

I don't believe that Sylvari are destined other than their Wyld Hunt if they have one. Who they fall in love with isn't predetermined after they fall off the tree because Sylvari seem to fall in and out of love just like the other races. Also, there have been some pretty one-sided Sylvari relationships... Green Knight-Gawain, Faolain-Caithe. Albeit, Caithe and Faolain had a falling out, Caithe (Going off Destiny's Edge) hates Faolain. If Sylvari were predestined for another Sylvari, we wouldn't be seeing these really strained relationships snapping at the stem. There's nothing special about Sylvari in who they love but in the way they love.

Quote

Do sylvari have romantic relationships?

Sylvari fall in and out of love, just like other races do. They have a romanticized view of devotion, and they’re curious about passion in all its forms. There are male and female sylvari, but none has ever produced a child as other races do. Because of this, traditional human-style gender roles have no meaning to sylvari, either in their society or in their romantic relationships. Often, a sylvari’s ardor is expressed with courtly zeal—emotional, empathic, personal—and is not necessarily defined by gender.

http://www.arena.net...he-sylvari-soul

Edited by Kokocat, 27 December 2012 - 04:09 PM.