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Mainhand Pistol Thread: The Straight-to-VHS Version!

pistol mesmer

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#1 Midnight_Tea

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:39 AM

Those of you who frequented the official mesmer subforum in some capacity during the BWEs might have seen me make one of these threads. Mainhand pistol threads! Oh yes, I've been trying to force this idea through the pipeline for a while now.
Thing is, though, I don't honestly think I was sharing those with an audience that was experienced enough with the PvP and PvE to tell me that I was an idiot who doesn't understand balance.

So, GW2 Guru it is! Until the official forums are open again and I can make noise there. Perfect place for me to get myself told I'm an idiot who doesn't understand balance. (Can you tell yet that I don't know my ass from my elbows when it comes to min/maxing?)



More seriously, I really really think the mesmer could use the ability to mainhand a pistol. The obvious reason is there -- don't give a player a gun and then tell them they can't use it! It's just frustrating knowing my gun is sitting right there! That I need to summon a phantasm to shoot stuff for me. That there's a trait called "Duelists Discipline" that increases my pistol range for me and my phantasm, but my phantasm is the one who gets to actually take advantage of it! Why does that ungrateful shell of myself get to have all the fun?

I know probably the best "fix" is to just play a thief instead, but I kind of refuse to believe the mesmer is a finished class. Two mainhand weapons versus four offhand? Really? It feels like the mesmer is starved for weapon options here. You pretty much have to justify any weapon equip combo that isn't sword/pistol + staff because of it.

Okay, for all my preamble about how I really really do not understand a metagame for most games... it still seems to me somehow that the mesmer is hurting for mid to long range combat options. That despite being a scholar class, they have to get up real close to all of their enemies to be effective. That's okay to some degree, because it seems to me a good mesmer is constantly mobile (aside from those odd moments in PvP where you pretend to be a normal clone). But is it wrong to suggest they really could use some extra range damage that doesn't force them to equip a greatsword? That they have to put themselves in harms way, compared to the other clothies? I don't think the answer lies in the scepter, which more specifically has a place in shatter-oriented builds.


So... yeah. Do want a mainhand pistol.  And I'm pretty much unwilling to stop barking in ArenaNet's ear about it.

#2 Skyro

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:46 AM

While I completely agree Mesmers seem lacking the MH weapon choice department I doubt you'll see such a big change anytime soon. I imagine for the expansions they will be adding new weapon options to the classes however and MH pistol for the Mesmer seems like a very likely candidate.

#3 Midnight_Tea

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:56 AM

*nods* What's important is to keep the dream alive! :)

#4 entropy3

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:23 AM

/agree

It feels like someone at ANet had it in their hands to put in then got called away to something else and forgot to give us MH Pistol.

#5 flint11

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:36 AM

I feel like MH-Pistol can definitely find its niche. Staffs generally are the long-range AoE type choice with some support embedded within; this is true for Elementalists, Mesmers, and Necromancers. What these professions also have that the Mesmer does not have is single-target 900 range weapon for conditions or other shindigs. The Mesmer does that have in form of the confusion Scepter, but not all builds can take advantage of the scepter's confusion. Not even other condition builds, to make confusion really strong, you definitely have to trait/build a certain way (Glamours + Confusions). For a Bleed/Burn focused build with Sharper Images and such, there isn't much to use other than Staff.

The Mainhand pistol can be made to be that 900 range single target weapon that does little direct dmg, has some conditions attached to its skills, kind of like the Engineer or even the Thief's pistol. My buddy I'll be playing GW2 most with finds this as one of the areas the Mesmer is seriously lacking in, main-hand choices that are viable with some type of builds he wants to run.

Edited by flint11, 20 August 2012 - 07:37 AM.


#6 Midnight_Tea

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:05 AM

I really appreciate that detail, flint11. You put it the mechanics in words better than I could. For me it was more like this nebulous "itch" I couldn't scratch. Even the existence of another mainhand weapon would make a condition build a bit more reasonable, because you could possibly find a good companion for the torch. I'd also agree that a nice 900 range, modest direct damage weapon wouldn't go amiss. The scepter really does feel like an overspecialized weapon only useful to people interested in shattering a lot of clones or building around confusion. Needless to say, anathema to phantasm builds.

So... um... in a way, for non-specific builds, we almost have only one consistently-useful mainhand weapon per four offhands. Wow, ouch, it's even worse than I thought now that you got me thinking about it.

Things like that lead me to believe the mesmer isn't actually really ready for release, so it wouldn't surprise me if we got our MH pistol in a future major content patch, just in the process of balancing. Not to say the mesmer isn't still great!  Just... feels like a work in progress that needed to be held up a bit for the sake of launch.

#7 draxynnic

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:25 AM

Looking purely at mechanics - the mesmer really does need an additional MH weapon. The ones it already has are fairly specialised - the sword is a melee weapon, while the sceptre is a clone factory that interferes with some builds.

Thematically - MH pistol on mesmers is something that would have to be done very, very carefully. Mesmers are supposed to be spellcasters primarily - a pistol as an offhand works because it's the odd shot being mixed in with the magic, but giving them pistols as an onhand could risk them turning into a gunslinger-type just like pistol thief and engineer. And the engineer already has the pistols-doing-funky-things angle covered - the one skill that the mesmer does currently have where the gun is actually fired, Magic Bullet, is already very similar to Static Shot.

Edited by draxynnic, 20 August 2012 - 08:30 AM.

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#8 flint11

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:40 AM

I think I'm on fire today, MH-Pistol for Mesmers can be set up like this.

1. Skill, Temporal Bullet, Bleeds for 2-4s (In line with other professions), pierces through hit targets (They're MESMER BULLETS & they don't have traits for that) and 20% Projectile Finisher (Mesmers really lack finishers too).

2. Skill, Ethereal Burden, summon an illusion (clone because Pistol off-hands have a phantasm already) that Chills for 1s on hit, gain Vigor for x seconds.

3. Skill, Mimic (Yes I couldn't come up with a 3rd one but this utility might be a good fit) Absorb a projectile attack to be redirected at a foe. > Echo your mimic, shooting the stored projectile at your foe.

Might not be 100% entirely balanced, but ideas are just ideas.

Edited by flint11, 20 August 2012 - 08:41 AM.


#9 Midnight_Tea

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:41 AM

@draxynnic I'm missing the part where someone explains why a magical gunslinger wouldn't be awesome.  :lol:

More seriously, though, the mesmer already sort defies the traditional spellcaster image by being extremely adept with a sword and being unusually functional in close range combat. In for a penny, in for a pound.

Though a lore justification wouldn't go amiss. Here's mine: I think the mesmer specializes in romantic weaponry. Like the sort that gets the most screentime in movies and stage plays. The sword is certainly one. The other? Definitely the gun. Cue film noir or western music!
I think lore-wise mesmers actually typically lack martial training in any of the weapons they're using. In other words, a mesmer's use of a sword or pistol is actually powered by the romantic perception of those weapons themselves. A sword mesmer going against a properly trained fencer is competent because they've deluded themselves into competence and have chaos magic to supplement each swing.

Edited by Midnight_Tea, 20 August 2012 - 08:42 AM.


#10 Lisletbh

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:07 AM

I would like to see the Mesmer have a main hand pistol - but i don't think they should be able to dual wield them. I would vote for it as a main hand OR off hand, not both.

I definitely think they missed a trick there but i also think they missed a trick with the dagger - i really think that would have been a good main hand or offhand weapon for the mesmer too.

#11 el hefe

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:12 AM

i'd rather see mh/oh daggers.  but mh pistol would be nice.

#12 Cl1p

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:26 AM

Yes!, I think a mesmer shooting short ranged, piercing purple bullets (like the ones from iDuelist) would be great. And doable.

Inventing skills for it shouldn't be too hard,
1: Ether shot: piercing purple bullets that apply 1s of bleeding (clones copy this attack so it shouldn't apply too much bleeding)
2: Revert time: shoot the last thing that hit you back at the enemy, regaining some health
3: Illusionary roll: summon a clone and do an evasive roll (removes chill, cripple and immobilized)

#13 Miku Flarestorm

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:18 AM

Any MH as long as it's range and useful in power builds.

#14 Flailers

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:31 AM

1: Shoot your target -> Shoot your target again -> Shoot your target and daze them for 0.0001 seconds
2: empty because skill 1 is OP
3: Generate an OP clone.

#15 Kirec

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:44 PM

I agree with Midnight_Tea and flint11.  It seems that for any build, taking either the greatsword or staff is a given.  Sword and scepter are opposite in their function, so I've always felt it to be sub-optimal to take both in my weapon sets.   That's not to say it doesn't work, just that I personally can't justify it.  

More options would be great, and pistol is already there for the taking with minimal trait adjustment.  Cool suggestion.  Perhaps in an expansion?

#16 Carighan

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:57 PM

I don't necessarily see a problem with our lack of MH choice for DW setups.
We have two ranged 2H choices, one ranged 1H MH choice, and 1 Melee MH choice.

We seem to be quite versatile with that.

#17 Xalted

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:20 PM

The only reason I care to try Thief is for the novelty of having 2 pistols. If they added this to Mesmer I don't think I'd play any other class. Please Anet! We need this addition!

#18 Carighan

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:50 PM

View PostXalted, on 20 August 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

The only reason I care to try Thief is for the novelty of having 2 pistols. If they added this to Mesmer I don't think I'd play any other class. Please Anet! We need this addition!

"Need"? What weapon-style are we lacking?
You could argue AE damage, but then I'd have to answer that given the other skills already on Staff and GS, it would logically be added to those to avoid 3 weapons competing for AE potential.

#19 spelley

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:56 PM

View PostCarighan, on 20 August 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

"Need"? What weapon-style are we lacking?
You could argue AE damage, but then I'd have to answer that given the other skills already on Staff and GS, it would logically be added to those to avoid 3 weapons competing for AE potential.

I wouldn't mind it for variety's sake if nothing else.  I still think the idea that we use Greatswords as freaking laser guns is enough for ranged DPS.

#20 Angelus359

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:56 PM

If scepter was setup to only make clones that can't replace phantasms, it would be fine!

#21 Phys

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:14 PM

View PostCarighan, on 20 August 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

I don't necessarily see a problem with our lack of MH choice for DW setups.
We have two ranged 2H choices, one ranged 1H MH choice, and 1 Melee MH choice.

We seem to be quite versatile with that.

got into this thread before, but no i dont think we are that versatile.

scepter even when well designed is designed around a very specific playstyle, it doesnt really fit with the duelist style at all. Sword has the same problem, if you are not trying to get in close, sword is a bit of a -weapon slot for you.

the big problem with this, is it limits the use of offhand greatly, for either style. many times i wanted to try a second offhand, but scepter just didnt fit my playstyle that well. I imagine for long ranged fighters, sword presents the same problem.


The answer i came up before was MH pistol, like Midnight T i saw it as something that already fit into the mesmers theme, which always seemed romantic and duelist focused.

I see why draxy fears that mesmer will become too like theif and engineer, although i feel how they implement it, and the visuals or abilities of the skills they use to could still seperate the styles drastically.

That said, personally, i wouldnt mind a mystic dagger option, i shied away from this because adding another melee weapon would not solve the long ranged problem, however there is ways around this.

I still feel the next mainhand weapon has to:
be useful for both sides of building
Include more multi hit attacks

but i can see, the weapon being similar to others, except instead of having one good range and one bad range, alter the effects depending on the range.

1a    stab with dagger twice  under  130 range, 170 damage per swing. over 130 range  110 damgage per stab,  send purple energy magical trail blades (fast moving projectiles)
1b    stab with dagger once  under 130 range,  202 damage 1 second blind or weakness  over 130 range  170 damage with 3 second poison
1c    3 dagger attacks under 130 range, 170 per swing   1 second vulnerability each over 130 range   100 damage each 1 second bleed each

2nd skill  under 130 range evade(though it looks like you phase through them) through target to behind it, leaving a clone in front attack 2x 100 damage 1 second stun  over 130 range phase strafe direction you are moving clone strafes other way. (if you pick left, it strafes right) 2 daggers (100 damage) fly out old position giving 1 second daze.

3rd under 130 5 strikes at once (illusionary arms strike at the same time) 250 damage each 1 second animation (can move while doing)  over 130 range, same animation with illusionary arms (think indian multi armed god with purple effects) throws blades 100 damage each purple (daggers stay in them) then 1 second later daggers fly through them for 200 damage each. (dodging gets rid of purple mesmer daggers in the body OORRR number 1 skill is replaced with remove blades for enemy, who can remove them for 1 second bleed stacks)


so this basically gives a dual purpose melee/ ranged weapon they can insert a lot of magically mesmer effects into the ranged versions. essentially increased damage for melee, and decent kite/evasion/deception options. Ranged has less damage, for most except for 3, which does more damage, but requires you to either interupt/stun/daze to get the big damage and has more access to decent conditions.

The clone is a multi hit clone, that does 1a 1b 1c, giving critical/condition builds 5 attempts at bleeds as well as other conditions, Clones will try to stay at 130 if they are summoned at 130, and stay distant if they are summoned distant.

this weapon set should reward power crit melee people with good damage, some defense (an evade, blind and a stun) and since it has many quicker attacks should allow vigor to be up a lot. power crit distance people will get lots of quick attacks with good kitability, and a nice spike on number 3 if they make use of control effects

condition types will profit off fast clones, with bleed on crit, decent array of conditions from a distance, and nice base damage.

defensively it will make very good use of the vigor on critical hit skill, and allow critical defensive mesmers to dodge way more often.

this wont really help boon types much, and work about the same as most weapons with shatter. maybe some bleeds could be replaced with confusion, (on the number 3 that would definately make it a hard choice. take the damage, or take 5 stacks of confuse)

i doubt they would use this stuff, but i think using the distance to alter the effects of a weapon would be a really good idea for the confusing mesmer, and allow one weapon to work well with many builds.

only problem is... maybe its too good. i mean sword does about the same damage, and has a nice distort, but the adaptability of excelling from range or distance maybe hard to beat.

anyhow there you go random MH weapon idea no2

#22 Phys

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:19 PM

View PostCarighan, on 20 August 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

"Need"? What weapon-style are we lacking?
You could argue AE damage, but then I'd have to answer that given the other skills already on Staff and GS, it would logically be added to those to avoid 3 weapons competing for AE potential.

quick attacking ranged option is missing. Decent damage ranged options are low (GS is ehhh from most ranges, and turning into a multi target weapon)
Could also use a control effect on a weapon, or another confuse application weapon (engineer has 2 direct confuse applications)
another melee option is also missing, though i recognize many mesmers hate melee, i particularly enjoy it

essentially for a duelist class, we dont get to take advantage of self criticals very much, and most weapons dont get much use out of the vigor on critical trait, which leaves us more lead footed in battle than i think they intended.

#23 draxynnic

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:28 PM

View PostMidnight_Tea, on 20 August 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

@draxynnic I'm missing the part where someone explains why a magical gunslinger wouldn't be awesome.  :lol:
Because it loses the mesmeric magic.

Sword works because swordplay is often a matter of feinting and deception, getting the enemy to block in the wrong place so you can slide your blade between their ribs. What the mesmer loses in having less technical skill with the blade, they gain in being light-years ahead on the deception side.

Pistols don't have that, however - they're just point and shoot. Thieves are better at shooting accurately, engineers are better at adding exotic effects to a bullet. What mesmers are good at is illusions and messing with the target's mind - they use the offhand pistol as a focus and can fire off a single enhanced shot for effect, but they should be slinging spells rather than blazing away Wild West style.
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#24 Carighan

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:30 PM

You're right in that GS fits in weirdly, it used to be aimed more directly at ranged DPS.
But I'd rather see scepter reworked then, have Sword and Scepter be "simple" Ranged / Melee damage options, with the utility coming in four flavours from the offhand. In other words, base damage and range via MH, utility and nuance via OH.

Solid concept - just needs tweaking to get there.

#25 Phys

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:38 PM

View Postdraxynnic, on 20 August 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

Because it loses the mesmeric magic.

Sword works because swordplay is often a matter of feinting and deception, getting the enemy to block in the wrong place so you can slide your blade between their ribs. What the mesmer loses in having less technical skill with the blade, they gain in being light-years ahead on the deception side.

Pistols don't have that, however - they're just point and shoot. Thieves are better at shooting accurately, engineers are better at adding exotic effects to a bullet. What mesmers are good at is illusions and messing with the target's mind - they use the offhand pistol as a focus and can fire off a single enhanced shot for effect, but they should be slinging spells rather than blazing away Wild West style.

they only have two directions of spells though,
spells that cause an altered state of reality, which should use a real/surrealistic style (because messing with peoples perceptions requires a certain amount of reality injected into it)
which means this type shouldnt be like super magical spell looking

the other type is based around time/space/chaos, these could use overlly magical effects and fit well.

I definately agree that mesmer is seen as romantic figure, as midnight tea says, that can be used with magic as well

I dont know if you are suggesting this, but i dont think mesmer should really be like a purple elementalist, they are mainly messing with peoples minds, and with space/time with a side of chaos.  If the mesmer used a gun, it should have a romantic and yet surreal style of use, if they got a new weapon, it should also use that, unless it was supposed to be a chaos weapon, but frankly chaos is less purple super spells, and more random stuff happening.

#26 jonasklk

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:41 PM

Imagine all the new weapons that will come with the new expansions ^^

#27 Phys

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:43 PM

View PostCarighan, on 20 August 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

You're right in that GS fits in weirdly, it used to be aimed more directly at ranged DPS.
But I'd rather see scepter reworked then, have Sword and Scepter be "simple" Ranged / Melee damage options, with the utility coming in four flavours from the offhand. In other words, base damage and range via MH, utility and nuance via OH.

Solid concept - just needs tweaking to get there.

thing is they have already married the concept of scepter as the direct confuse, low damage defensive slow weapon.  I dont really hate the scepter as much now, because the counter is great, and confusion is cool, but it doesnt fit into offensive playstyles too well, and the only thing that does anything for condition build is the confuse channel, but the speed of attacks, and other condition application isnt there.
Its kind of a good weapon now, but it is too specific, i think we would be at a loss if they altered it, and a loss if they dont have a different style for a mainhand option, so i think the mesmer could really use an extra mainhand weapon.

View Postjonasklk, on 20 August 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Imagine all the new weapons that will come with the new expansions ^^

yeah i think this thread is kind of with that in mind, of course some might prefer it sooner, but we all know it will probably be awhile if at all. thing is though, mesmer would probably only get one new weapon since it isnt the weapons master type, what should that weapon be?

#28 Xalted

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:51 PM

View PostCarighan, on 20 August 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:



"Need"? What weapon-style are we lacking?
You could argue AE damage, but then I'd have to answer that given the other skills already on Staff and GS, it would logically be added to those to avoid 3 weapons competing for AE potential.

No, sorry we don't "need" a mainhand pistol, but it seems counterintuitive that we only get pistols as an offhand while still having traits that increase it's effectiveness. I would like to see a slow ability integrated into mainland pistol, as that seems to be something we lack at the moment, other than the chilled condition.

#29 Carighan

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:20 PM

Tbh, thinking about it, I'd be fine with a very simply change:
Remove scepter, add Pistol. Keep skills, change graphics where necessary:
- Confusion is applied via a barrage of bullets, not a line.
- Main attack shoots, ofc.
- Counter pistol-whips if enemy is in melee range.

That'd be pretty slick, style-wise. :D

That being said, I'd rather see - as said above - the MHs be retuned to provide power + attack-range, utility added via offhands (for example, block is on OH-sword, I don't really see the main use on MH-scepter if it were retuned to be sufficient as the sole defensive ability - this would ofc have side-effects for #2 Sword MH).

#30 PlayerKX

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:46 PM

View PostMiku Flarestorm, on 20 August 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

Any MH as long as it's range and useful in power builds.

Already have sword as a power build weapon. We need viable condition weapons. Scepter doesn't cut it. Pistol should be a strong condition mh.

I think duel wielding pistol is necessary. The other scholar class, elementalist, already duel wield daggers. So I think it would be odd to have two different classes use the same weapon combination. No diversity. Now... a scholar class duel wielding pistols?! Never seen that before. I would love a duel pistol mesmer. We shall see though. I have high hopes for our future.

We lack condition weapons!





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