65 replies to this topic

[RandolfRa]

Delolith, on 21 August 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

I think 2000-2100 toughness should be minimum to make any kind of proper sPvP/PvP build. Anything below that and you die like a fly by anything. However, illusionary membrane goes a long way to protect you in several cases.

Maybe in tournament play where people actually know what they are doing. In hot join you can still survive fairly well if you just try to avoid taking any damage. During the last tests / betas, I never specced anything at all towards health / armor, and I still didn't die nearly as often as I did when I played as a warrior*. Blurred frenzy and DE combined with distoration already pack a lot of evasion. Indeed, a fly may die if you hit it, but some of them are still damn hard to kill.

I also really think that the best way to counter a thief is offence. The few percentages of damage reduction you may gain from extra toughness aren't going to help here.

*Ok could be because I just suck as a warrior but anyway.

Edited by RandolfRa, 22 August 2012 - 08:23 PM.

[Delolith]

RandolfRa, on 22 August 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

I also really think that the best way to counter a thief is offence. The few percentages of damage reduction you may gain from extra toughness aren't going to help here.

This is exactly where I disagree. A thief can kill you before you even use your heal unless you spot him first and prepare the battlefield beforehand. This 10-15% more survivability can make the difference and has made the difference for me.

Edited by Delolith, 22 August 2012 - 08:47 PM.

[Chesire]

Delolith, on 22 August 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

This is exactly where I disagree. A thief can kill you before you even use your heal unless you spot him first and prepare the battlefield beforehand. This 10-15% more survivability can make the difference and has made the difference for me.

With Ambush trap they can even kill you after then if they stay stealthed. Those little bastards hit REALLY hard.

[Delolith]

Chesire, on 22 August 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

With Ambush trap they can even kill you after then if they stay stealthed. Those little bastards hit REALLY hard.

Lol they don't need Ambush trap. I have seen a mesmer die in a Head Shot -> Infiltrator's Strike -> Pistol Whip with Haste and Assassin's Signet.

That was in less than 4 seconds.

P.S I have to repeat I ment armor...not 2000 toughness

Edited by Delolith, 22 August 2012 - 09:32 PM.

[Chesire]

Delolith, on 22 August 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

Lol they don't need Ambush trap. I have seen a mesmer die in a Head Shot -> Infiltrator's Strike -> Pistol Whip with Haste and Assassin's Signet.

That was in less than 4 seconds.

P.S I have to repeat I ment armor...not 2000 toughness

Yeah they don't need them.. But they usually have them.

Seeing a thief on point defense makes me want to use iWarden; I haven't up til this point but I'm seriously thinking of mixing it into my point defense now, and using Pistol for running between points.

[CasualPvP]

Re: Mass Invis: Ya I haven’t tried it since the cooldown went down. The cast time is still 2s? I'll give it another go, since I feel the same way about the other elites as you do.

Re: Thieves: That's one place I like to use Moa if I'm having any trouble or just need some time to heal. In general I found Blink and Mirror of Anguish to be very helpful vs Thieves and Ellies. With a bit of breathing room you can get out 3 illusions and then the advantage is yours.

Re: Cat's builds: very similar to stuff I'm playing or planning on playing, like them all a lot.

[Taywyn]

I tried a sort of bleed heavy condition build in yesterday's stress test. I had a blast with it to be sure! However, I think I'm going to play around with a couple different builds when we go live Saturday. I was a wee bit squishy last night.  LOL

These are a couple builds I'd like to try:

For a "hopefully" high damage build with more survivability than I had last night:http://gw2skills.net...WutkbtKYUwugZBA
And for a kinda trollish, tanky, "man the post till help arrives" kind of build: http://gw2skills.net...GrNObk2sCZEy DA

Edited by Taywyn, 23 August 2012 - 12:49 AM.

[j3w3l]

Taywyn, on 23 August 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

I tried a sort of bleed heavy condition build in yesterday's stress test. I had a blast with it to be sure! However, I think I'm going to play around with a couple different builds when we go live Saturday. I was a wee bit squishy last night.  LOL

These are a couple builds I'd like to try:

For a "hopefully" high damage build with more survivability than I had last night:http://gw2skills.net...WutkbtKYUwugZBA
And for a kinda trollish, tanky, "man the post till help arrives" kind of build: http://gw2skills.net...GrNObk2sCZEy DA

I think we are all going to have a plethora of builds

With your damage one you might want to switch out the shatter and confusion traits for something else since it really isn't your focus.. Trait 3 would be good. Personally I would take 10 points of illusions and maybe grab  some more defensive traits. Pistol OH would give you more damage instead of sword as well

For the defense I wouldn't focus too much on power since your weapon sets are more condition orientated or you could go something more like sword/sword or sword/focus
here's my own point control Mesmer

Edited by j3w3l, 23 August 2012 - 02:09 AM.

[Taywyn]

j3w3l, on 23 August 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

I think we are all going to have a plethora of builds

With your damage one you might want to switch out the shatter and confusion traits for something else since it really isn't your focus.. Trait 3 would be good. Personally I would take 10 points of illusions and maybe grab  some more defensive traits. Pistol OH would give you more damage instead of sword as well

For the defense I wouldn't focus too much on power since your weapon sets are more condition orientated or you could go something more like sword/sword or sword/focus
here's my own point control Mesmer

Tyvm for your input, you gave me some great ideas to improve on the builds to try Saturday.  

[RandolfRa]

Delolith, on 22 August 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

This is exactly where I disagree. A thief can kill you before you even use your heal unless you spot him first and prepare the battlefield beforehand. This 10-15% more survivability can make the difference and has made the difference for me.

You have to realise that if a thiefs combo hits he has already won a round, extra survivability merely makes that mistake slightly less costly. Depending on the situation I did something like this: Decoy when the thief attacks to break possible stun and to cause misdirection, dodge back and follow with signet of domination chained with the stunning pistol skill. Then daze once that last stun is about to end, either via diversion or power lock. If you had friendlies nearby like you should have had*, the thief is dead by now unless if he had a stun break. They don't always have.
If I was really badly f*cked, I'd use distoration. With DE it's easy to maintain 3 clones just in case you get jumped on.

*The first and foremost of all defence is placement in the battlefield. As a mesmer, no matter how you spec, you can't endure much damage and hence you should try to stay at the backline if there is one.

Edited by RandolfRa, 23 August 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[Delolith]

RandolfRa, on 23 August 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

You have to realise that if a thiefs combo hits he has already won a round, extra survivability merely makes that mistake slightly less costly. Depending on the situation I did something like this: Decoy when the thief attacks to break possible stun and to cause misdirection, dodge back and follow with signet of domination chained with the stunning pistol skill. Then daze once that last stun is about to end, either via diversion or power lock. If you had friendlies nearby like you should have had*, the thief is dead by now unless if he had a stun break. They don't always have.
If I was really badly f*cked, I'd use distoration. With DE it's easy to maintain 3 clones just in case you get jumped on.

*The first and foremost of all defence is placement in the battlefield. As a mesmer, no matter how you spec, you can't endure much damage and hence you should try to stay at the backline if there is one.

I have survived plenty of times against a thief pulling combo with quickness on me due to increased survivability.

You know that the damage formula is Weapon damage * Power * Skill coefficient (0.2-1.2 for most) / armor. That means that if a thief can pull 20k damage on you using Signet of Assassin and Haste in the 2 seconds you are unable to react, 200 toughness more + illusionary membrane that will pop at 75% health when regeneration starts will give you of upwards of 5k hps remaining instead of being dead.

That is enough for you to survive and even fight back instead of running for the rest of the match till your heal is up shouting to your team mates help me!.

P.S. Decoy isn't gonna cut it. The new thief trend is the dazelockers using Mesmer runes. Try to use Decoy through that.

Edited by Delolith, 23 August 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[RandolfRa]

Delolith, on 23 August 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

P.S. Decoy isn't gonna cut it. The new thief trend is the dazelockers using Mesmer runes. Try to use Decoy through that.

If they do that, you still have distoration I think. Though the cool down is very bad making that shatter not so reliable. I quess you are best off trying to use decoy before they actually get to you, if they got so strong daze skills. I can't really say since I never ran into such sins.
If there is a quaranteed way for them to land their combo, I will switch to thief until they get a nerf.

Edited by RandolfRa, 23 August 2012 - 11:57 AM.

[Delolith]

RandolfRa, on 23 August 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

If they do that, you still have distoration. If there is a quaranteed way for them to land their combo, I will switch to thief until they get a nerf.

You should switch now then till they get that nerf. You cannot pull distortion if you don't have illusions out unless you got Illusionary Persona. If you play against a really skilled/experienced thief you will start pulling your hair off with a pure glass canon build.

Edited by Delolith, 23 August 2012 - 11:56 AM.

[RandolfRa]

Delolith, on 23 August 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

You should switch now then till they get that nerf. You cannot pull distortion if you don't have illusions out unless you got Illusionary Persona. If you play against a really skilled/experienced thief you will start pulling your hair off with a pure glass canon build.

I always carry the trait that makes clones whenever I dodge, it's my favorite. Hence I almost always have 3 illusions out.

[Delolith]

RandolfRa, on 23 August 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

I always carry the trait that makes clones whenever I dodge, it's my favorite. Hence I almost always have 3 illusions out.

You cannot dodge when you are immobilized by his shadowstep and stunned while you are also dazed.

[That Happy Cat]

What I usually do in a 1 vs 1 against a melee enemy is to place Chaos Storm at my feet preemptively. If they charge in anyway, they'll most likely get Dazed and/or Weakened and I'd most likely have Aegis to negate an opener or a followup. The next step is Phase Retreat for Chaos Armour and a Clone, then quickly get three Illusions (if I don't have them already). Then CoF, switch to Scepter-Pistol, Confusing Images: this gives me 6 stacks of Might and inflicts 11 stacks of Confusion for ~5s, causing the target to take ~2000 damage per skill activation.

As I've said before, I find stacks of Confusion especially potent against low HP professions like the Elementalist and the Thief; and if they're Glass Cannons they could easily kill themselves from Confusion alone. High Toughness really helps to mitigate direct damage, and MoR is really awesome in these situations because if you do take a lot of damage, you can heal (quite a large amount) without breaking the momentum of your counterattack.

It could be that I simply haven't played any good Thieves and have no idea what I'm talking about. Anyway, there's my two cents on the matter. *Shrugs*

Edited by That Happy Cat, 23 August 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[Delolith]

That Happy Cat, on 23 August 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

What I usually do in a 1 vs 1 against a melee enemy is to place Chaos Storm at my feet preemptively. If they charge in anyway, they'll most likely get Dazed and/or Weakened and I'd most likely have Aegis to negate an opener or a followup. The next step is Phase Retreat for Chaos Armour and a Clone, then quickly get three Illusions (if I don't have them already). Then CoF, switch to Scepter-Pistol, Confusing Images: this gives me 6 stacks of Might and inflicts 11 stacks of Confusion for ~5s, causing the target to take ~2000 damage per skill activation.

As I've said before, I find stacks of Confusion especially potent against low HP professions like the Elementalist and the Thief; and if they're Glass Cannons they could easily kill themselves from Confusion alone. High Toughness really helps to mitigate direct damage, and MoR is really awesome in these situations because if you do take a lot of damage, you can heal (quite a large amount) without breaking the momentum of your counterattack.

Yes but already included in your sentence two very potent ways to fight against thieves, Toughness and MoR.

[That Happy Cat]

Delolith, on 23 August 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

Yes but already included in your sentence two very potent ways to fight against thieves, Toughness and MoR.

Indeed, just offering my experience on why I don't think a Toughness-based condition Mesmer is weak to burst, despite the lack of Vitality.

[Zorian51]

Ya I'm not sure how the toughness will fly in PVP. I have a condition build I want to try that is base vitality with high toughness as well but I don't think it would do that great in PVE which is where I'll be starting. I have two builds setup just not sure which one I want to start with. I think they should both work well I'm just not sure which one to start with. Worried about conditon style for PVE so might start with the other. Any advice critques?

Conditions - http://gw2skills.net...I7Xuvkft6YUyGEA

PowerTank/Phantasm - http://gw2skills.net...HbOuck5sEZIyGEA

I did want to throw the extra illusion HP signet into the Phantasm build but I'm not sure what I would give up for it.

[Delolith]

Zorian51, on 23 August 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Ya I'm not sure how the toughness will fly in PVP. I have a condition build I want to try that is base vitality with high toughness as well but I don't think it would do that great in PVE which is where I'll be starting. I have two builds setup just not sure which one I want to start with. I think they should both work well I'm just not sure which one to start with. Worried about conditon style for PVE so might start with the other. Any advice critques?

Conditions - http://gw2skills.net...I7Xuvkft6YUyGEA

PowerTank/Phantasm - http://gw2skills.net...HbOuck5sEZIyGEA

I did want to throw the extra illusion HP signet into the Phantasm build but I'm not sure what I would give up for it.

Toughness is very potent in PvP, although it has diminishing effects due to the formula.

Edited by Delolith, 23 August 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[Zorian51]

Delolith, on 23 August 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Toughness is very potent in PvP, although it has diminishing effects due to the formula.

True but if you wanted to build vitality its kinda hard and makes you dimish the build when it comes to conditions I feel. Throwing a Phantasm Defender in there is a better bet at that point. Also still looking for any suggestions with changes I should make to either of the builds as well as which one you think would be better to start out with.

I've never done conditions pve so I'm not sure how well it works.

[Delolith]

Zorian51, on 23 August 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

True but if you wanted to build vitality its kinda hard and makes you dimish the build when it comes to conditions I feel.

We have plenty of condition removers though. Unless I didn't understand what you said.

[Zorian51]

I just mean if you want to play conditon style its hard to build vitality because of the Jewel/Amulet selection we have right now. Unless you want to give up precision.

[Delolith]

Zorian51, on 23 August 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

I just mean if you want to play conditon style its hard to build vitality because of the Jewel/Amulet selection we have right now. Unless you want to give up precision.

Ahh right. Gotcha, sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Tjuba]

Zorian51, on 23 August 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

I did want to throw the extra illusion HP signet into the Phantasm build but I'm not sure what I would give up for it.

How about replacing decoy and taking mass invis instead of moa?

You shouldn't want to run away that often as you are tanky and now your Defender has more hp as well. Although Moa is very strong, Mass invis has half of the cooldown of moa. Just an idea.

[Zorian51]

Tjuba, on 23 August 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

How about replacing decoy and taking mass invis instead of moa?

You shouldn't want to run away that often as you are tanky and now your Defender has more hp as well. Although Moa is very strong, Mass invis has half of the cooldown of moa. Just an idea.

I could but then I also wouldn't have a stun break which is a problem. Part of the problem is you always need to carry one condition remover of some sort and one break stun for a fight.

[Tjuba]

Ah, yes I forgot about the stun break. Bad idea then.

[sanguisaevum]

So, i could use some advice / opinions on my go live build please.

After being under whelmed by a shatter spike build, i have narrowed it down to a choice between two similar Power/crit builds supported by hard hitting phantasms.

My weapon choices, and utility choices are the same in both builds, as I find I can use the specific combos very well. Both builds offer decent control, misdirection, and escape mechanics, and both builds also deliver excellent damage and burst. Especially when i have two phantasms out.

The first build relies on a large HP pool for defence, and can generate GS illusions far faster thanks to the GS trait. (Mirror blade is at about 5 sec, and Beserker is down to around 12 sec... which puts it equal to the duelist! when factoring in the 5pt illusion trait )

http://gw2skills.net...Nuak1s Y8xGkJIA


The second build drops the faster GS skills and some 6k HP, as well as an extra 15% damage for illusions, in favour of gaining access to protection (which thanks to the phantasm regeneration, is almost always on)

http://gw2skills.net...Nuak1s Y8xGkJIA


I can see why almost perma-protection might offer better defence than an extra 6k HP... but I cant help but feel i am giving up a lot of potential by not having faster GS skills and 15% more damage... especially since i have decoy, blink, and invis to get me out of bad situations if required. Is getting the perma-protection worth the sacrifice of GS cooldowns and a speedy, harder hitting beserker / duelist?
　
Which build would you go with and why? and can you think of any tweaks to improve efficiency of the concepts, trait swaps etc?

Edited by sanguisaevum, 24 August 2012 - 12:06 PM.

[RandolfRa]

Delolith, on 23 August 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

You cannot dodge when you are immobilized by his shadowstep and stunned while you are also dazed.

Yes yes, but the point is that I have 3 illusions up when the thief attacks. They are easy to maintain with that trait.
I still hold to this: if the thief lands his combo, he has already won half of the game. Armor is just damage control.
Armor for a mesmer is like heavy plating for a fighter: it slows you down during a dog fight but doesn't make any real difference if you get hit with a missile. You are better of relying on clones flares, stealth and agility.

Edited by RandolfRa, 24 August 2012 - 12:11 PM.

[Delolith]

RandolfRa, on 24 August 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

Yes yes, but the point is that I have 3 illusions up when the thief attacks. They are easy to maintain with that trait.
I still hold to this: if the thief lands his combo, he has already won half of the game. Armor is just damage control.
Armor for a mesmer is like heavy plating for a fighter: it slows you down during a dog fight but doesn't make any real difference if you get hit with a missile. You are better of relying on clones flares, stealth and agility.

As I said in another thread I rest my case. You cannot persuade someone that believes something strongly (check the wording I use), no matter what arguments you will use. The raw reality will show whether I am correct or wrong. Give the PvP community time to mature (2-3 months) like the alpha PvPers already have and we talk later.