37 replies to this topic

[Thorntamer]

http://www.incgamers...confirmed-as-80

No new news, but...

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The people over at Arena.net have got hold of designer Isaiah Cartwright and mercilessly forced her to write about the Guild Wars 2 level cap.

Gender identity issues again?

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Do players, in fact, WANT to spend hour upon endless hour grinding for experience? With Guild Wars 2, we may find out.

Huh?

Edited by Thorntamer, 31 July 2010 - 04:04 AM.

[Guideborn]

So what exactly are you implying?

[Doctor Overlord]

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It's 80, it's 80 ... just put the feather and the fluffy cushions away!

I will refrain from commenting on the mental imagery that quote invokes.

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Do players, in fact, WANT to spend hour upon endless hour grinding for experience? With Guild Wars 2, we may find out.

Actually a good point.   I think there are some of the MMO community who like the grind for whatever reasons but I do not believe they are a majority of the potential market, only a vocal minority that have dictated MMO design since it began.

A darker question would be whether the rest of the MMO community can break out of the endless grind mentality that has been drummed into their brains by every game out there?   We'll have to see.

[trollberry]

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"It's 80, it's 80 ... just put the feather and the fluffy cushions away!" she may or may not have said.

Some sites really need to insist that their writers check facts... its like watching gossip columns written by schoolkids sometimes :(

[Tzu Qui Jinn]

No I do not want to grind. 20 was great. The reward for each additional level was an extra skill. That method worked great for me.

[trollberry]

Tzu Qui Jinn said:

No I do not want to grind. 20 was great. The reward for each additional level was an extra skill. That method worked great for me.

20 was great for GW1 which was not an MMO.  If they had kept GW2 at 20 they would have been laughed into bankruptcy.  There has to be such compromises, the world is not ready for level-less MMOs and probably never will be.

[MithranArkanere]

It has been already said that after a certain level, the extra stats you get are much less.

The first 20 levels will probably be similar, and the rest give just some extra points and health.

[Azula]

Peter Parrish said:

But is that the dark little secret of MMO gaming? Do players, in fact, WANT to spend hour upon endless hour grinding for experience?

I think, she is on to something there. Over the years, I have been playing MMORPG it has gone from games that take as long as years to complete the leveling process to where the max level can be achieved in a much shorter period. With that, I feel, the focus of the genre has moved from enjoying the journey, and continued improvement of your character to leveling as fast as you can, in order to reach the end of your characters progression.

The emphasis on pvp in most MMOs these days is what has incited the change in mindset for me. So the conundrum arises, how can I enjoy a long journey that I find highly rewarding, when I'm rushed to complete it in order to take part in other aspects of the game such as pvp?

The reaction in resent games seems to be to shorten the journey, to the point it becomes deficient. In that case, I tend to spend much of the time endlessly killing mobs at max level. That has a advantageous upshot of making me quite rich. But I am restricted in how I can progress any further, and the content remains static with nothing else to move on to -- it becomes mundane.

I have high hopes for ArenaNet's version of public quests. I can see them allowing for alot of replay value with my main or one of the many alts I will surely create. If the dynamic events will be a sufficient distraction from the fact I'm running on a hamster wheel will have to wait until I can play the game myself.

Edited by Azula, 02 August 2010 - 03:47 AM.
I toast, therefore I am.

[athariel]

I see a flaw in that last sentence - longer leveling doesn't equal grind. Grind is "go into the field and have some fun killing mobs". Since WoW this type of grind had faded in favour of quest-based grind, which, when done right, doesn't feel like grind at all.

[Matthew Browne]

IGN said:

But is that the dark little secret of MMO gaming? Do players, in fact, WANT to spend hour upon endless hour grinding for experience? With Guild Wars 2, we may find out.

That's the question, really. I would think that, by now, most of the MMO players must be tired of killtenrats quests and such just to see an experience bar move. We never know, though.

[Lyssa]

I dont think people want to grind. People just want to have lots and lots of character development to keep them interested and make them feel as though they are always acomplishing something. When WoW releases an expansion pack and says "You can reach level 90 now!" people wont jizz their pants because they are looking fowards to endless grind. They just love the idea of becoming more powerfull.

Grind is not equal to a lot of character development.

All Anet is doing is taking the boring part out.

Edited by Lyssa, 31 July 2010 - 10:43 AM.

[Hollygen]

So the level is 80.  And so long as that can bee reached through varying events and personal story without requiring continuous repetition I'm happy.  What I don't want, and if ArenaNet are true to their word won't see, is the need to have to repaet the same tasks over and over

My pet hate in other  MMOs is the need, once you've run out of original content in an area is to have to redo that area's content over and over, or have to repeatedly kill the same group of monstors over and over just to be able to survive the next area.  That is the grind I don't want

ANet have said they want us having fun, and not preparing to have fun.  That means taking out the repetetive grind, to my mind

[Volkon]

"Do players, in fact, WANT to spend hour upon endless hour grinding for experience? With Guild Wars 2, we may find out. "

I think it's more of an expectation than a desire. It's a habit, thanks to everyone else doing it that way. Levels have been an indicator as to how close to the "good stuff" you are. If the game itself is engaging enough through all the levels then the number by your name will lose meaning.

But for this to work, all the game has to be the "good stuff", or at least close to it.

[Ratchet]

players want to feel rewarded. if they're given things too early, they aren't working for anything. working for something makes the reward seem worth it.

leveling and grinding, however, arent necessarily the same thing.

I spent hours and hours in the Prophecies campaign in '06 just playing through. i didn't have the benefits of a lvl 20 character until i was at lvl 20 but i never felt like i had to spend time doing something i didnt want to in order to get there. because i was churning through content and learning the game, i wasn't grinding.

No one wants grind, it just finds its way into games when the balance between content and leveling/rewards isn't there (often intentionally). If GW2 has enough content and pace to support 80 levels without me feeling like i'm grinding, what do i care? i'm just enjoying the game.

[Keydet96]

Pretty sure this ain't a she. But A-net is located on the left coast, so who knows, maybe.
http://wiki.guildwar...aiah_Cartwright

BTW, anyone else seeing some major similarities between GW2 and what they're saying about WoW's Cataclysm expansion? Starting to think the 2 dev teams are copying each others homework.

[Sard]

there are millions overseas (and quite a few in the West) who do love grind...almost like a form of brainwashing....without it, the game is flawed...(shivers at the zombies).

there seem to be undertones in some of these articles, and i wonder where some of them even get their information....

[athariel]

Keydet96 said:

Pretty sure this ain't a she. But A-net is located on the left coast, so who knows, maybe.
http://wiki.guildwar...aiah_Cartwright

BTW, anyone else seeing some major similarities between GW2 and what they're saying about WoW's Cataclysm expansion? Starting to think the 2 dev teams are copying each others homework.

It's kinda strange. They want to be as innovative as possible, yet every decision they make is very similar to decisions taken by Blizzard in WoW (storyline, ok i'll get bashed for this - races, level cap, some class-specific systems)

[Matthew Browne]

Keydet96 said:

BTW, anyone else seeing some major similarities between GW2 and what they're saying about WoW's Cataclysm expansion? Starting to think the 2 dev teams are copying each others homework.

where are the similarities? u.u

[Amannelle]

Well, WoW DOES have some good features to it (please don't kill me). What it looks like to me, is GW2 will incorporate some of those GOOD features (extra mobility such as jumping and swimming, multiple races for added variety, larger content such as indoors and underwater, a higher level cap for more content to experience, etc), and then trying to eliminate the bad features (Daisy-picking mobs, wall-o-text quests, endless grind, horrible imbalance, kill stealing, etc).

I don't think it's becoming WoW, I think it's becoming GW2. :D

[Matthew Browne]

But he was talking about new features of the new expansion (Cataclysm) and GW2, I think.

If there are indeed similarities between the two games, I'd like to be aware of them :surprised:

[Sard]

i think it's the state of the genre that they are playing with...the clone/copy thing is mostly ignorance or trolling...people make the comparison with the "w" game because it's more widespread...like athlete's foot or herpes....

[nobody knight]

Sard said:

i think it's the state of the genre that they are playing with...the clone/copy thing is mostly ignorance or trolling...people make the comparison with the "w" game because it's more widespread...like athlete's foot or herpes....

yes i would agree, and i did hear about some similarities between gw2 and wow cata something about dynamic quests in wow i am not completely sure though

[Alexious]

Overlord said:

I will refrain from commenting on the mental imagery that quote invokes.

Come on, seriously.

[Volkon]

Keydet96 said:

Pretty sure this ain't a she. But A-net is located on the left coast, so who knows, maybe.
http://wiki.guildwar...aiah_Cartwright

BTW, anyone else seeing some major similarities between GW2 and what they're saying about WoW's Cataclysm expansion? Starting to think the 2 dev teams are copying each others homework.

Not even remotely. Cataclysm they're slowing down the leveling (adding more grind) to make the higher level somehow feel more like an accomplishment. Totally opposite sides of the spectrum.

[Darcy]

athariel said:

It's kinda strange. They want to be as innovative as possible, yet every decision they make is very similar to decisions taken by Blizzard in WoW (storyline, ok i'll get bashed for this - races, level cap, some class-specific systems)

All companies read forums and make lists of player complaints about existing games.  They then try to bring out a game that addresses these areas.  But copying each other is not exactly what's happening.

"Cataclysm will include a new "auto-quest" mechanic, allowing players to pick up the next quest in a chain without having to go back to the original quest giver." is WoW's version of dynamic quests.  I have a feeling it won't be anything like ArenaNet's version.

[Sage Of The Wise]

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Do players, in fact, WANT to spend hour upon endless hour grinding for experience? With Guild Wars 2, we may find out.

This is actually something I'm worried about. Most of my friends play WoW, and when I showed them GW2's level curve they thought it was an awful idea and that there would be no reason to play the game now. Most of them then started bragging about how the new 5 levels added to WoW are going to be awesome since apparently they are designed to be the longest grind ever.

I really hope my friends are in the minority here, the logic is so idiotic. Also, I could probably use different friends.

[DarkWasp]

Sage Of The Wise said:

This is actually something I'm worried about. Most of my friends play WoW, and when I showed them GW2's level curve they thought it was an awful idea and that there would be no reason to play the game now. Most of them then started bragging about how the new 5 levels added to WoW are going to be awesome since apparently they are designed to be the longest grind ever.

I really hope my friends are in the minority here, the logic is so idiotic. Also, I could probably use different friends.

If you want someone to like GW2, dont talk to WoW fans.

The only way to get them receptive to anything else is for Blizzard to screw up horribly, which may happen soon.

[pinoyplaya4life]

Im quite glad that they have the level cap at 80. To me, getting to the level cap is an achievement, and if the level cap was soo easy to accomplish, its no longer an achievement.

They said that the leveling time and experience is not exponential, though I'm sure it takes only 15 minutes to go from lvl 1 to lvl 2, I dont think it will take 15 minutes to go from 79-80. It might be an hour or so but that's good enough for me.

[Jexx]

pinoyplaya4life said:

They said that the leveling time and experience is not exponential, though I'm sure it takes only 15 minutes to go from lvl 1 to lvl 2, I dont think it will take 15 minutes to go from 79-80. It might be an hour or so but that's good enough for me.

That's the opposite of what ArenaNet said, they said that it's the same amount of time/experience between levels, and that there is no curve. What your saying is actually a curve. >.>

[Drogon]

AsuranSylvari21 said:

That's the opposite of what ArenaNet said, they said that it's the same amount of time/experience between levels, and that there is no curve. What your saying is actually a curve. >.>

True, but I think that the graph they posted might have started at level 10 or something.

It would make sense that the first few levels go faster as it's mainly a tutorial. For example, you could get level 2 with a few kills and then it would tell you something like 'Congratualations, you have now reached level 2. You can go to [insert outpost + npc name here] to buy new skills'. After all, ArenaNet said that in the beginning levels they will introduce stuff to us, traits** being the latest mechanic to be introduced to us at level 10+.

It might also give other players that don't know anything about the game the idea that the last few levels will be a massive grind since getting level 2 already takes a few hours. I guess we might get more info about the beginning levels in the Q&A, but right now it does indeed look like getting from level 1 to 2 will also take a few hours.

**(I'm not sure about this, it could be something else instead of traits. iirc I read that somewhere in an interview, but I could not find the source right now and it isn't on the wiki either. I think the level of introduction was like 15 or 18)

Edited by Ryuzaki, 01 August 2010 - 08:19 PM.