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Get ready to QUAD-KIT: Zenh's dynamic kit build!

engineer build quad kit

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#1 Zenh

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 09:05 PM

LET'S QUAD-KIT


This post is oudated, pre-release. Read later posts for newer stuff.


PREFACE


The following concerns PvE.

A common complaint when it comes to PvE for many MMOs is boredom stemming from dull or repetitive combat, especially while leveling. GW2 has 1-upped most MMOs in this regard with its dodging and weapon-swap system.

Still, two problems exist -- and one is for engineers:

1. Builds focused on stat boosters (e.g. +10% power) or simple random procs (e.g. 33% chance-on-crit to burn) are great for DPS, but they aren't very dynamic -- which can lead to repetitive combat.

2. Engineers don't have weapon swap. We have kits. You can avoid kits and still have a great DPS build, such as dual-pistol/elixirs, but this may make for very simple and possibly boring combat. A turret or gadget build would be my non-kit alternative if I wanted something dynamic.

Ultimately the choice is yours. You should play how you see fun. The greatest way to fight combat repetitiveness is to change builds often and try different things. Until ArenaNet implements a on-the-fly multi-build system many people will be hesitant to do this during PvE.

For now, my recommendation for the most dynamic and fun Engineer build is the QUAD-KIT build. Let's go!


HOW IS IT DYNAMIC?


First and foremost, having 4 kits. I recommend Elixir Gun and Flamethrower, and one of Grenade Kit or Bomb Kit -- whichever you prefer. You could adjust the build if you're in love with the Tool Kit. The principle is 4 kits. This gives you a tool for every scenario, and that is what Engineers are all about. The strength of kits is that, unlike weapon-swapping, there is no recharge and only a global cooldown of 500 milliseconds.

As for traits, in my opinion traits are dynamic when they aren't random procs or stat increases. They're traits that enhance your combat more kinetically. They may reduce the recharge of your skills, increase the radius of your explosions, allow pistol shots to pierce, allow increased attack range, or even create a dynamic spell upon using another skill. When a trait influences your fingers to press more varied keystrokes, it's doings its job to give your more dynamic combat.

Every trait I just mentioned is included in this build. This build has no traits that are stat increases or random procs. All these things work together to bring you a more rapid and flavorful combat experience.


THE BUILD


For rifle:
http://gw2skills.net...oH6VdlXfeIXpFEC

For dual pistols or pistol/shield:
http://gw2skills.net...oH5VdxXfeIXpFEC

(Same build for pistol(s) but swap Rifled Barrels for Coated Bullets -- it's just too good)

You could make an argument that Coated Bullets, further attack distance, and larger explosion radii aren't that engaging, but I think they create a chain of combat events that are more interesting and affect gameplay more dynamically than simple random procs or stat boosters. I emphasize simple procs because some procs can be very dynamic, but they're found mostly on sigils or runes.

Why Kit Refinement? This is a fun but also powerful kit trait. Every time you equip a kit a spell happens. Seeing how you have 4 kits, this will happen often. Not just some minor spell mind you, these spells are mirrors of your skills and equally damage-worthy: http://wiki.guildwar.../Kit_Refinement

What about the elite skill? Honestly anything goes here. The idea behind QUAD-KIT is versatility, and most our elites provides versatility. Elixir X, or a race's elite such as Charrzooka, are most akin to our kits because they provide a new skill bar for whenever the situation calls. The elite skill is not as important for this build so select what's fun or optimal for you. As a Charr I will probably toy with Charrzooka because it's most like a kit. (Don't read into that too much, it isn't a kit and benefits none from our traits)


WHERE TO SPEND POINTS WHILE LEVELING?


I recommend this route for rifles:

Tools (Kit Refinement) → Firearms (Rifled Barrels Hair Trigger → Fireforged Trigger) → Explosives (Forceful Explosives → Short Fuse → Grenadier)

This is important: you might be wondering why Kit Refinement and Rifled Barrels are lower than the other adept traits. It's all about conditioning. Leveling is a great way to learn your profession. If you pick up traits that give longer skill ranges when you're at end-game, you have to relearn your distances. If you start from the get-go with these traits you will be well conditioned by end-game.

Kit Refinement is similar. It will condition you to swap your kits more often when you see how neat it is to get those extra skill spells for free. (just don't swap kits whenever for the sake of Kit Refinement though).

Pistols is the same except your Firearms path is straightforward since you'll forgo Rifled Barrels for Coated Bullets. In my opinion trait selection for this build works like this (in order of importance):

Weapon Piercing Traits Multi-Skill Recharge Reducing Traits Increased Ranged Multi-Skill Traits Increased Radii Multi-Skill Traits

Generally speaking, using kits early on will condition you greatly. If you go pistol/pistol elixirs the entire game and only look at kits once you're 80, your head might be in for a spin. In the reverse, picking up pistol/pistol elixirs at end-game as a QUAD-KIT veteran will feel like a 300-pound barbell just got lifted off your back.


CONS


The number one hurdle to this build, that I don't really see as a con, is its learning curve. You will have more skills ready at your fingers than any other profession. Not only will you have an enormous arsenal of skills, but every weapon's recharges (except Shield) and kits' recharges (except Med Kit and Tool Kit) are lowered through traits. There won't ever be a second that you are left wondering "Damn, I'm in a tough situation with nothing to use!" or "This combat is so repetitive!"

Like said, the learning curve will be steep. Incredibly steep actually, considering how quickly you can get kits while leveling. You'll have most if not all of them by 20. Due to this build's key-binding potential, I'd say QUAD-KIT engineers will be the least popular but the most rewarding in fun combat.

The next con ties into learning curve: Staleness. How does a QUAD-KIT build ever become stale?! By not actively swapping your kits when the situation calls for it. If you get too comfortable and lazy with a kit, you may feel like you should never swap kits. At this point this build is either not for you, or you need to step up your game!

The last noteworthy con is the sustained DPS may not be on-par to min/max builds. However, this build at level 80 will still have very good DPS with all those points in power/crit and 10% critical-damage from tools, and let's not forget shorter recharges all around.


----

This build received a solid recommendation from the Law Offices of Saul Goodman. "Better Call Saul!"

Edited by Zenh, 10 September 2012 - 08:56 PM.


#2 Frozire

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 10:20 PM

Lets try this again.

This is for PVE-discussion.

#3 vordrax

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 07:54 AM

This sounds pretty awesome. I'm leaning strongly toward Engineer and might give this a try while I'm leveling, as I've been most interested in just futzing around with the kits.

#4 Zorpen

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 08:22 AM

Sounds pretty fun.
One question tho, what about sigils etc?

Edited by Zorpen, 24 August 2012 - 08:27 AM.


#5 Alex Dimitri

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 08:50 AM

Kits are the right way to go at least for PvE !

#6 Kittimm

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 09:48 AM

I sympathise with those wanting 4 kits. You pay a severe penality in boredom when you go for more viable builds such as elixir builds.

The point of a kit is that the product is greater than the sum of their parts. Each skill inside a kit might not be super powerful, but the whole kit, working toward its intended purpose, gives you all the tools you need. 4 kits means you are a walking swiss-army knife.
The problem with a kit is that you can only use 1 skill at once. So second-for-second, you almost miss out from not hitting a pure utility skill. At least in theory.

My point is that I'd rather take 3 kits and a pure utility than 4 kits. Packing an elixir B will buff your kits enough to warrent losing one. A turret can pack constant damage even while you're using another kit (whether a turret is actually worth it or not is another conversation), using Rocket Boots can save your life like no other skill can...and you can use it without switching out of your current kit (try ElixirGun#4 into Rocket boots for an unparalleled getaway).
Meanwhile 3 kits is plenty for fun, complexity and flexibility.

That said, you're bound to have a decent time in PvE and WvWvW with this build. I hope the advice in this thread is taken in a friendly way but I also hope that people just do their own thing and don't feel pressured to enter cookie cutter builds. Nobody wins when that trend sets in.

Edited by Kittimm, 24 August 2012 - 09:50 AM.


#7 Spears

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 02:44 PM

This build looks very interesting and I had almost the exact same build in mind to level my first Engineer!
Thanks for the nice guide! Awesome work :)

#8 Rusti

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 04:25 PM

I play with 4 Kit Engi Bomb build in PvP it works just as fine there ^^

#9 Smallwalk

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 07:03 PM

Thanx great guide to trait points! My engi skill choises allready same (havent picked the elite yet) but i had no clue on traits. That tools kit refiment sounds good. I will surely give it a try.

#10 Olives

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 11:39 AM

I like the idea of a flexible build with many different kits and will definitely try out something similar.
In the builds you linked, you use the trait Forceful Explosives which says "Bombs and mines have a larger explosion radius". Have you tested if this works on grenades? Because technically, those are neither bombs nor mines.

#11 Zenh

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 07:59 PM

I almost forgot about this thread! I have been successfully leveling with a variation of this build. I'm at level 31 now.

It's absolutely amazing. Leveling with 4 kits is a blast. (pun intended)

However, for leveling (and maybe even PvP) there is a crucial trait that I overlooked: Speedy Kits in Tools (tier 1). Forget Kit Refinement, Speedy Kits is amazing. You can have 100% uptime of swiftness easily (just spam Med Kit). For combat or for going place to place, this is a superb trait for kit builds.

Quote

Forceful Explosives which says "Bombs and mines have a larger explosion radius". Have you tested if this works on grenades? Because technically, those are neither bombs nor mines.

Hm, I have not had a chance to try this out but I will. If that's the case the trait is only useful for bomb kit (which is still a very fun kit, especially for kiting).

Quote

My point is that I'd rather take 3 kits and a pure utility than 4 kits. Packing an elixir B will buff your kits enough to warrent losing one. A turret can pack constant damage even while you're using another kit (whether a turret is actually worth it or not is another conversation), using Rocket Boots can save your life like no other skill can...and you can use it without switching out of your current kit (try ElixirGun#4 into Rocket boots for an unparalleled getaway).
Meanwhile 3 kits is plenty for fun, complexity and flexibility.

I've already had situations where I dropped down to 3 kits. My problem is I love Flamethrower and Elixir Gun, but Grenade and Bomb don't do too much different than the AE from the others can't handle. So I've done a lot of 3-kit action (Med Kit, Flamethrower and Elixir Gun). Bomb Kit is interesting for kiting, but you can't really kite tons of mobs in PvE that effectively because mobs have ridiculously short leashes and deaggro easily. Once in awhile I see a couple packs of roaming Moas together and I bomb kite them in circles.

I've been toying with Tool Kit as a 4th kit, I kind of like that it gives some melee function.

Edited by Zenh, 27 August 2012 - 08:10 PM.


#12 Drath

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 10:27 PM

I love the idea of the quad kit, but am not there yet in leveling. The build I'm hoping to play around with is a little different than yours though...

http://gw2skills.net...oH6VdlXfeIXpFEC

I don't have any grandmaster level runes, but I've got synergy in here that I hope is a lot of fun. First, I grabbed the 20% reduced recharge for all of my kits/weapon (rifle, flamethrower, elixir gun, bombs) because I'll be changing kits a lot and want all my options available as much as possible. Then I grabbed the two buffs  to kit swapping, so that every time I swap kits, I get a random spell and swiftness. The really unique part is that I actually went one level into alchemy so that every time I get swiftness, I also get vigor. With the bigger bomb explosions, and creating a bomb every time I roll, having vigor and swiftness up almost permanently means lots of big bombs going off and lots of survivability from dodging and running fast.

So it's a little bit of a spamming build, since I'll be swapping kits a lot to keep swiftness, vigor, and random spells flying.

The one change I'm considering is swapping the bombs for grenades, and the invigorating speed buff for master grenadier. Doing that makes the close range bombing/dodging less exciting, but gives me the 1500 range grenades which gives me a better mix of close/medium/long range options. The grenade option I see as more of a hybrid build, and the bomb/vigor option gives the quadkit more of a skirmishing flavor, with close-midrange options on all weapons and lots of dodging/swiftness.

#13 Zenh

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 10:57 PM

Quote

So it's a little bit of a spamming build, since I'll be swapping kits a lot to keep swiftness, vigor, and random spells flying.

I like the idea behind the Vigor trait, I might even consider it in combination with Speedy Kits.

As for spamming, I think you'll find you don't really have to spam a kit for the sake of swapping kits.  I have been swapping kits between 3-6 second intervals simply trying to use skills as they are ready, therefore constantly keeping Swiftness up due to Speedy Kits. I haven't even got any of the 20% recharge reductions yet. It's going to be a flurry of fun with those.

#14 Smallwalk

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 02:24 PM

Could this be stickied! Actually first guide to pve engi. This is very helpfull! Just got my kit refitment

e: So are traits affected from stats? (for example bleed) If they are should i look for condition dmg. i got rifle lvl 20 with +18 condi dmg

Edited by Smallwalk, 28 August 2012 - 02:31 PM.


#15 Xetrov

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:53 AM

Hmm, been trying this build and I noticed I barely use my normal weapons when carrying multiple kits. Are the rifle/pistol traits still worth taking or might it be better to grab the vulnerability and swiftness procc on crit?

#16 Snarvid

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 04:00 PM

View PostDrath, on 27 August 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

I love the idea of the quad kit, but am not there yet in leveling. The build I'm hoping to play around with is a little different than yours though...

http://gw2skills.net...oH6VdlXfeIXpFEC

I don't have any grandmaster level runes, but I've got synergy in here that I hope is a lot of fun. First, I grabbed the 20% reduced recharge for all of my kits/weapon (rifle, flamethrower, elixir gun, bombs) because I'll be changing kits a lot and want all my options available as much as possible. Then I grabbed the two buffs  to kit swapping, so that every time I swap kits, I get a random spell and swiftness. The really unique part is that I actually went one level into alchemy so that every time I get swiftness, I also get vigor. With the bigger bomb explosions, and creating a bomb every time I roll, having vigor and swiftness up almost permanently means lots of big bombs going off and lots of survivability from dodging and running fast.

So it's a little bit of a spamming build, since I'll be swapping kits a lot to keep swiftness, vigor, and random spells flying.

The one change I'm considering is swapping the bombs for grenades, and the invigorating speed buff for master grenadier. Doing that makes the close range bombing/dodging less exciting, but gives me the 1500 range grenades which gives me a better mix of close/medium/long range options. The grenade option I see as more of a hybrid build, and the bomb/vigor option gives the quadkit more of a skirmishing flavor, with close-midrange options on all weapons and lots of dodging/swiftness.

Been thinking about something kind of similar with 30 in tools assuming vigor stacks with adrenal implant.  

One other 4 vs 3 kit consideration is the zero cool down on kit swaps. Therefore while you miss out on elixir buffs you gain a broader pool of high cool down slot 4-5 skills to cherry pick.  You could use far fewer autoattacks, which might make up for your objectively lower stats. .

#17 TerraHero

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 10:19 PM

I'd be hard pressed to get something that breaks Stuns and other kinds of CCs. As such ive personally gravitated towards 3-kit with 1 utility skill dedicated to breaking Stuns. Mostly i use the Rocketboots, the toolbelt gives me a nice melee-range attack that applies a lovely Burning (yay condition damage) and the use itself breaks just about any effect that is considered a CC (cripple, root, stun, even chill i believe) While also putting some distance between you and your attacker.

Obvious downside is the enviroment, which can make the use of Rocketboots work against you. Then Elixir S is a good call. Which breaks Stun, refills your Endurance (yay, two more dodges). And its Toolbelt can be used to revive fallen Allies, and if you do it right, even yourself.

Edited by TerraHero, 08 September 2012 - 10:21 PM.


#18 Vayba

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 10:47 PM

Great post OP, but you could maybe give some examples of how you would use all 4 of these kits?  TBH it seems like having Flamthrower and Elixir Gun would be overlapping each other?  I'm low level still so I am just assuming, but like I said any advice and tips would be great.

#19 DoctorKillinger

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 06:24 PM

View PostVayba, on 08 September 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Great post OP, but you could maybe give some examples of how you would use all 4 of these kits?  TBH it seems like having Flamthrower and Elixir Gun would be overlapping each other?  I'm low level still so I am just assuming, but like I said any advice and tips would be great.

Elixir Gun and Flamethrower fill two entirely different niches.  Flamethrower is pretty much raw, AoE damage along with Napalm (4) enabling a flame field for combos.  The only odd man out, is Smoke Vent (5) which provides a VERY small radius PBAoE blind.  

Elixir Gun is all about conditions and support.   Tranq Dart (1) stacks bleed and causes Weakness, which great for hard-hitting Champions. Elixir F (2) cripples four enemies or causes swiftness in four allies.  Fumigate (3) Poisons and cause Vulnerability while at the same time cures conditions on all your friends.   Super Elxir (5) creates a large area of regen and is also a Light combo field.

#20 RyuujinZERO

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 06:41 PM

Hmm. I think this build is trying a little too hard to stuff lots of kits into it in the name of flexibility, yet it's very top-loaded towards DPS in the traits, survivability will be a serious issue with this having absolutely nothing in the way of toughness, vitality OR survival assisting traits, as well as very low healing score (So having all those elixir gun heals are a little redundant since they won't really heal for anything)

We might be missing the wood for the trees here by avoiding any kind've exlirs or gadgets (Elixir U is so versatile it should be dropped only with a really good reason :P)


Cooldown reductions arn't as useful as they sound if you're switching between so many kits; by the time you've gone through one kit, the cooldowns on another kit will've run through. (And if you're sticking to a kit long enoguh for the CD's to come off on their own you're doing it wrong). I'm also a bit dubious of the elixir/flamethrower damage boost.

Flamethrower's damage isn't good in the first place, and elixir's guns damage is just awful (Elixir gun is about throwing out debuffs and support before swapping back to offence). On the flipside there's nothing that might help survivability, nor the latent healing/toughness/vitality bonuses from the associated trait lines.



This is of course, just my opinion...

Edited by RyuujinZERO, 09 September 2012 - 06:41 PM.


#21 JonnyBigBoss

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 07:52 PM

I don't like this build...

at all.

#22 Tal El Hawkins

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 02:59 AM

The quad kits build is incredibly fun. Cool down is no longer an issue if you continuously switching between kits.

My build differs from yours in that I am using Bomb Kit and Grenade Kit instead of Flamethrower. Somehow I feel the damage for Flamethrower is lacking and din have a good role (except maybe to setup the fire combo).

Just a question about trait:
I know the Speedy Kit is awesome. However since there is already a Stimulant in Med Kit that gives almost the same buff, is it better to use Kit Refinement trait instead?

Edited by Tal El Hawkins, 10 September 2012 - 03:01 AM.


#23 DoctorKillinger

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:42 PM

View PostRyuujinZERO, on 09 September 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

Hmm. I think this build is trying a little too hard to stuff lots of kits into it in the name of flexibility, yet it's very top-loaded towards DPS in the traits, survivability will be a serious issue with this having absolutely nothing in the way of toughness, vitality OR survival assisting traits, as well as very low healing score (So having all those elixir gun heals are a little redundant since they won't really heal for anything) ...

I was able to compensate for lack of defensive traits by dedicating some jewelry slots to rare Lapis (tough/vit) pieces.  Not to say that it is a perfect solution. I am certainly no Guardian but I am far from squishy.

View PostRyuujinZERO, on 09 September 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

...
Cooldown reductions arn't as useful as they sound if you're switching between so many kits; by the time you've gone through one kit, the cooldowns on another kit will've run through. (And if you're sticking to a kit long enoguh for the CD's to come off on their own you're doing it wrong). I'm also a bit dubious of the elixir/flamethrower damage boost.
...

Completely agree with this, plus the cooldowns are already fairly low across kits as it is.  20% just isn't all that much.

View PostRyuujinZERO, on 09 September 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

Flamethrower's damage isn't good in the first place, and elixir's guns damage is just awful (Elixir gun is about throwing out debuffs and support before swapping back to offence). On the flipside there's nothing that might help survivability, nor the latent healing/toughness/vitality bonuses from the associated trait lines.

For some reason people love the Flamethrower.  Heck, I was one of those Engineers until I discovered the glorious, wrench-slapping goodness that is the Tool Kit (which I had overlooked for like 30 levels).

#24 Zenh

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:52 PM

The original post is old and outdated. I am still using 4 kits but a completely different build now. However, I've been adjusting builds a lot so there's no single one I can post. I still enjoy using 3-4 kits though, it's amazing versatility. For WvW I prefer a single-kit grenade build, because.. well, grenades absolutely own anything else in WvW.

Quote

I know the Speedy Kit is awesome. However since there is already a Stimulant in Med Kit that gives almost the same buff, is it better to use Kit Refinement trait instead?

Speedy Kits is an easy 100% up-time of swiftness. In every build I use, including my grenade build for WvW, I always trait Speedy Kits because it's so worthwhile for 100% swiftness. Especially for running between points.

I found Kit Refinement to be less and less enjoyable. I kind of ditched it at a lower level and haven't used it since. I think it's the untimeliness of the spells. When I swap to Elixir Gun, Kit Refinement creates a Super Elixir at me. Maybe I don't need Super Elixir right then and there? When I swap to Med Kit it creates an explosion at me (which is really odd in itself). If there are no enemies around me the explosion is pointless. Kit Refinement also encourages you to swap to a kit in order to proc the spell, but I swap to kits when I need to, not based on some proc.

As for Med Kit Stimulant, I save that for Fury not swiftness.

Quote

Hmm. I think this build is trying a little too hard to stuff lots of kits into it in the name of flexibility, yet it's very top-loaded towards DPS in the traits, survivability will be a serious issue with this having absolutely nothing in the way of toughness, vitality OR survival assisting traits, as well as very low healing score (So having all those elixir gun heals are a little redundant since they won't really heal for anything)

The kits provides survival and control through their skills. You don't need crazy toughness/healing in PvE, but if you want to further your survival in sPvP and WvW you can trait into Inventions and Alchemy while still using 2-3 kits and Elixir R or Elixir S. I have toyed with an sPvP build using 3 kits (Med Kit, Flame Thrower, Grenade Kit), Elixir R and some points into Alchemy, and wearing Soldiers Amulet. It works very well.

Quote

Cooldown reductions arn't as useful as they sound if you're switching between so many kits; by the time you've gone through one kit, the cooldowns on another kit will've run through. (And if you're sticking to a kit long enoguh for the CD's to come off on their own you're doing it wrong). I'm also a bit dubious of the elixir/flamethrower damage boost.

I disagree from experience. In fact, very often I swap to and from kits/weapon and find myself not having CDs up. When I swap to a kit I don't use all 1-5 from that kit, I may only hit 1-2 and then swap to another kit/weapon. For PvE you might do well without recharge reduction traits, but for sPvP and WvW -- and especially 1v1 encounters -- it helps a lot.

Edited by Zenh, 10 September 2012 - 08:58 PM.





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