451 replies to this topic

[Soki]

Everything PvE in GW2 is easy.
The only things it's tested my friends and I on is our patience.

[razor39999]

Mystic, on 07 December 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

The oozes and Tar bosses aren't easy. And yeah, sadly in life everything becomes easy with practice. It's how nature works.

I honestly don't remember anything about the ooze except for its bouncy knockback attack, which was more annoying than anything else (it didn't even oneshot my pet, so for the most part I just ignored it and waited it out) and the tar thing is literally a "don't stand in the red circle" boss. If you don't get tarred, you win, pretty much. Nothing else of importance about that one. Getting it to spawn was more difficult than killing it.

EDIT:
Also don't get me wrong, I like that GW2 PvE is as easy as pretty much every MMORPG PvE out there. It's what I need to relax in my spare time. I just don't like when people try to make it seem harder than it actually is.

Edited by razor39999, 07 December 2012 - 10:54 AM.

[lmaonade]

PvE is dull for me because I'm on my 4th run through of low level areas (human)

for my first character it was great though, everything (beyond Queensdale, I only completed Queens during beta so I wouldn't spoil) was fresh and interesting, DEs were nice, Hearts were interesting and added some depth and backstory to the area. It gets better during the mid levels (40-50s), the dynamic events start to get way more epic and chain a lot more. Each time I fought a new epicly huge boss I had more and more fun.

However, after 80 it completely crashed, after my first run throughs of areas and dungeons, everything became really repetitive, grinding DE chains, grinding dungeons, getting better at it is somewhat fun I guess, but after a while I reach max efficiency with my runs, so all I want to do after is get the reward and get out of there. Starting new characters is pretty interesting, until you hit the "grind" wall that is, leveling becomes a chore, and eventually I just get back on my main to run dungeons because even that is more interesting than leveling again.

The game stopped becoming an incentive in itself for me, I have to create my own goals in order to have some semblance of "fun" and even then it's not nearly the same anymore since I'm just grinding to reach something enjoyable rather than enjoying every step of the way.

In conclusion, the game is awesome, GW2 is really a good MMORPG, but it definitely isn't revolutionary. It, like all other MMOs, hooks you in but loses the appeal after a while, though I'd say the appeal stays for a lot longer for GW2, and like all other MMOs, you will get tired of it eventually, but enjoy your first time through, lose yourself in the world rather than think about how all the hearts seem the same or seem like too much grind, you'll have plenty of time to be that cynical after you're 80

[Hateart]

It's not boring,it's done poorly.

[blindude]

nice revive of an old thread..also my eye picked a complain that pve becomes easy with practice!?!! ..
lol

Edited by blindude, 08 December 2012 - 12:16 AM.

[Dasryn]

DuskWolf, on 07 December 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

snip

oh cool so now its, "let's compare GW2 to a third person shooter!"  dude seriously, first it was champions online, now its mass effect 3's multiplayer?!

i understand you are trying to draw a contrast to the level of strategy and critical thinking between GW2 and ME3, but ME3 is essentially a third person shooter.  i think any kind of comparison or contrast between the two games is just ridiculous.

but seriously, you keep finding games that you deem are more thought out or better than GW2, and the crazy thing is, you arent even playing GW2, you are playing these other games yet. . .you are still here to tell us that there are better games out there than GW2.

[BabyChooChoo]

Hateart, on 07 December 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

It's not boring,it's done poorly.

One can't be the result of the other? I ask this for clarification more than anything else.

[Robsy128]

PvE is fun and fine as it is. However, I will say that we need optional harder content. Something that will really test us. Something akin to Dark Souls. No, giving it a gazillion HP doesn't make it hard, it just makes it a chore. I want to learn the enemy's movements, dodge his ridiculous skills that can kill me with one hit and maybe he could spawn a few mobs here and there. Nothing really forces us to work together - it just feels like I'm a ranger shooting arrows and my team mates are all doing their own thing, even though we're fighting the same boss.

I think it would be good to have a boss that would force us to work together more. Have someone give everyone might, whilst another person drops down some AoE healing, etc.

[Gremlin]

PVE is pretty easy on the whole, you can get mobbed and killed sometimes but not often.

Hardest fights for me are when I am underground and cannot maneuver or sometimes see whats going on.

If you want to make it harder just visit areas above your level, take a lvl 10-15 into an area 25-30 and it can be testing.
Go higher and its just bang your dead.

Maybe they should add a hard mode as they did in gw1 only don't wait a few years before adding it.

Edited by Gremlin, 08 December 2012 - 01:46 AM.

[Robsy128]

Gremlin, on 08 December 2012 - 01:45 AM, said:

PVE is pretty easy on the whole, you can get mobbed and killed sometimes but not often.

Hardest fights for me are when I am underground and cannot maneuver or sometimes see whats going on.

If you want to make it harder just visit areas above your level, take a lvl 10-15 into an area 25-30 and it can be testing.
Go higher and its just bang your dead.

Maybe they should add a hard mode as they did in gw1 only don't wait a few years before adding it.

The problem is that the world is persistent. Unless you mean add a hard mode to all of the instances, including personal story and dungeons?

[DuskWolf]

Rickter, on 08 December 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

oh cool so now its, "let's compare GW2 to a third person shooter!"  dude seriously, first it was champions online, now its mass effect 3's multiplayer?!

Snarky snark snark. If you could attack the point instead of attacking the person, then I'd be less irritated by you. I mean, really. Why is ArenaNet fan synonymous with ad hominem fan? The conclusions I draw are logical, if you'd actually bother to read and understand them.

Yes. I'm listing games I've played that actually do something with the AI. In the case of Champions Online, mobs run off when they have low health to alert other groups, you have mobs that heal and support other mobs. In other words, they use tactics. In ME3 you have AI that uses tactics. In GW2 you have AI that just makes a beeline for the nearest player and stands there until it dies (or hte player dies, if the mob has better numbers).

They're fair comparisons, and you'd understand that if you tried to engage my argument, rather than just stooping to endless ad hominem.

Rickter, on 08 December 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

i understand you are trying to draw a contrast to the level of strategy and critical thinking between GW2 and ME3, but ME3 is essentially a third person shooter.

It has a melee component too. To be honest, you could reskin ME3's multiplayer as a fantasy thing, just replacing the guns with wands and bows, and you'd have something analogous to it. Consider that most of what's used in the game (like biotics) is essentially 'space magic.'

Have you played ME3's multiplayer? At all? If not, then you're arguing with me from a point of having absolutely no knowledge of one of the games involved. And the same is true of Champions Online; That game has fantasy elements, and you can play it as a fantasy character. Just because something has a sci-fi setting, it doesn't really make it all that different to any other game.

Are you honestly telling me that a vanguard couldn't be done with magic? A sentinel?

Rickter, on 08 December 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

[...] but seriously, you keep finding games that you deem are more thought out [...]

I keep drawing comparisons to games which don't have AI which makes a beeline to the nearest player. I keep drawing comparisons to games which have good AI. I keep drawing comparisons to show the tactical issues with the combat. I keep drawing comparisons to show how slow and unfun the combat is compared to other games.

Tell me why these are invalid comparisons.

Rickter, on 08 December 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

[...] you are still here to tell us that there are better games out there than GW2.

Yes, because I won't give you your walled garden where every post praises the sunshine that they apparently perceive pouring out of ArenaNet's arse. I have my opinion to share. I've given valid reasons in the past for sharing it.

I don't like splitting up posts, but I just wanted to basically detail how much of your posts are attacking me and using smoke and mirrors to detract from the fact that you've not played the games I'm talking about. And you're hoping beyond hope that no one will notice that. You keep thinking that despite not having knowledge of the games I'm using as comparison, or understanding my arguments, if you can somehow make me look bad, you can invalidate my arguments.

But it's not working.

Edited by DuskWolf, 08 December 2012 - 02:12 AM.

[DuskWolf]

Mystic, on 07 December 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

The oozes and Tar bosses aren't easy. And yeah, sadly in life everything becomes easy with practice. It's how nature works.

Except that's not true at all.

There are emergent forms of AI that can keep tripping you up even when you're familiar with it. Frankly, I've an engineer friend and we often talk about emergent styles of AI. And if you can program an AI right, you can have it respond with unexpected behaviours, or you can have it look at a situation and evaluate a response from a table of possible responses. You see a lot of this in Mass Effect 3. You can sepnd all the time you like analysing their patterns, but if you're not a good player (a tactical thinker with quick response times), then you'll never play on any difficulty above bronze.

And this is exactly my point. I'll make it again. What do you need to be good at GW2? Do you require even the most basic grasp of tactical warfare? Nope! Do you need quick response times? Nope! What do you need? A heck of a lot of free time. That's what it's about. The thing is though is that it's not even challenging from the outset. Nearly every mob in the game zergs in a beeline to the nearest player. Sure, some mobs have different 'activation radiuses' (you have to be closer to them before they zerg), but they all do the same thing.

Pick a mob. Walk up to it. What does it do? It zergs! It might even be a squishy mob, one that's more designed for ranged combat. It'll still zerg, it'll keep getting in range of you for it to use its abilities. It won't learn to hang back and ambush you, it won't use the environment to its advantage and snipe you from above, it won't work with other mobs in order to flank you, it's just... all of them, all zerging in a beeline to you. And you can literally see how unintelligent and basic the AI is. And that bores me.

but as I pointed out previously and will point out again: One of the really telling things about GW2 is that you can't snipe a mob from above. If you try, it'll tell you that the mob is 'invulnerable.' Why? Because the AI isn't smart enough to cope with being sniped from above. That's pathetic! Even the AI in GW1 could cope with being sniped from above.

There was recently a post on RPS about GW2, their calendar thing. And most of the people there were saying that they left because the PvE was boring and easy. Mobs just do the WoW thing. They run to you. You trade blows. The person with the biggest numbers remains standing at the end. That's it. No tactics. No need for response times. It's just "Hey, I have the better gear! I win!" and that's all GW2 is. That's why it's so incredibly disappointing. And future MMOs need to be more than that, they need to do more than that.

Here's the article and thread if you want it.

The truth of the matter is is that the AI in GW2 is bad, the combat is bad. And ArenaNet could do much to fix some of it if they wanted to. But at this point they're just a lost cause. So all we can hope is that some future developer will take this to heart. Your AI needs to be able to act tactically, strategies and quick response times should matter in your combat. This is why MMOs are always considered games for those who're just too unskilled to play anything else.

That image won't change unless something breaks us out of this horrible cycle of MMOs being WoW also-rans.

[BabyChooChoo]

Robsy128, on 08 December 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

PvE is fun and fine as it is. However, I will say that we need optional harder content. Something that will really test us. Something akin to Dark Souls. No, giving it a gazillion HP doesn't make it hard, it just makes it a chore. I want to learn the enemy's movements, dodge his ridiculous skills that can kill me with one hit and maybe he could spawn a few mobs here and there. Nothing really forces us to work together - it just feels like I'm a ranger shooting arrows and my team mates are all doing their own thing, even though we're fighting the same boss.

I think it would be good to have a boss that would force us to work together more. Have someone give everyone might, whilst another person drops down some AoE healing, etc.

This is the type of thing I could get behind. I'm just throwing ideas out there just for the sake of discussion, but, for example, have fights be absolutely reliant on something.

Like, have a fight take place in this dark room with X number of torches. Every X minutes, the boss will blow out the torches, grab one party member, slowly chip away at their health and the rest of the party has to use fire-based skills to relight the torches so the boss drops the party member blahblahblah you get the idea.

Or have there be a fight where you have to fight waves and waves of enemies, but the ranged enemies can only be damaged by ranged attacks and the melee enemies can only be damaged by melee attacks.

Or another fight where certain combos and things are absolutely vital because unless you have Chaos/Frost armor then the boss one shots you or unless he's constantly chilled then he moves super fast or unless he's poisoned then all subsequent attacks only do 1 dmg etc etc. Just stuff like that.

These are all ideas off the top of my head so obviously there may be glaring flaws with them, but they're mostly just for sparking discussion like I said. Regardless, the point is, something that would require a greater level of teamwork would be welcome.

Edited by BabyChooChoo, 08 December 2012 - 02:45 AM.

[DuskWolf]

So, here are some choice quotes from that article and thread on RPS I mentioned...

"The combat system is just… UGH. It’s blatantly obvious the dodge rolling was just thrown in as an afterthought. You can only do it twice every 5 seconds or so which means every fight is more about trading blows and hoping you kill the enemy before they kill you."

Sound familiar? Where could you have heard that before?

"Unfortunately it is a virtual world where basically everything ever comes down to bashing something in the face."

Which echoes my thoughts on the lack of variety.

"About Trahearne: Yeah there I agree, one of the most annoying npcs ever [...]"

Yeeeeup.

"[...] but dear god the writing in the personal story is horrible, its like a 14 year olds fanfiction or something."

The races and storylines really didn't live up to their potential at all, I've mentioned this. And I feel that Jeff Grubb likely had a lot to do with how childish it all was.

"They apparently decided to reject the idea of ambiguous characters and instead aimed for evil people who were totally evil for no reason, good people who are always entirely good – because nice people are good of course – and a protagonist who everyone loves immediately and irrationally because reasons."

It was all very black and white. The only area I felt avoided that a little bit was the charr storyline, because you were just a soldier doing your job. But mostly it was just cloyingly black and white. The Flame Legion, the Sons of Svanir, the Nightmare Court, and so on... so much potential, executed so badly.

"The problem is just that the MMO is nothing but an extra layer of life to go through before we reach the toys that allow us to have fun."

Ah the joys of vertical progression.

"Contrast this with League of Legends, with Dota2, with Tribes, even with single player games that have nothing to do with MMOs. Contrast these arbitrary obligations with Thief or with Minecraft or with all the weird and wonderful games out there. They are toys to be picked up and played. Most of these don’t care how much you play, they care about letting you play."

Hey Rickter, maybe this'll help you understand my point better! Please read it. I mean, gosh, he's comparing GW2 to other games! How dare he! So yes, this will help illuminate matters for you. Please, please read.

I could go on, but I won't. No need. Point made.

[Dasryn]

DuskWolf, on 08 December 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

So, here are some choice quotes from that article and thread on RPS I mentioned...

"The combat system is just… UGH. It’s blatantly obvious the dodge rolling was just thrown in as an afterthought. You can only do it twice every 5 seconds or so which means every fight is more about trading blows and hoping you kill the enemy before they kill you."

Sound familiar? Where could you have heard that before?

"Unfortunately it is a virtual world where basically everything ever comes down to bashing something in the face."

Which echoes my thoughts on the lack of variety.

"About Trahearne: Yeah there I agree, one of the most annoying npcs ever [...]"

Yeeeeup.

"[...] but dear god the writing in the personal story is horrible, its like a 14 year olds fanfiction or something."

The races and storylines really didn't live up to their potential at all, I've mentioned this. And I feel that Jeff Grubb likely had a lot to do with how childish it all was.

"They apparently decided to reject the idea of ambiguous characters and instead aimed for evil people who were totally evil for no reason, good people who are always entirely good – because nice people are good of course – and a protagonist who everyone loves immediately and irrationally because reasons."

It was all very black and white. The only area I felt avoided that a little bit was the charr storyline, because you were just a soldier doing your job. But mostly it was just cloyingly black and white. The Flame Legion, the Sons of Svanir, the Nightmare Court, and so on... so much potential, executed so badly.

"The problem is just that the MMO is nothing but an extra layer of life to go through before we reach the toys that allow us to have fun."

Ah the joys of vertical progression.

"Contrast this with League of Legends, with Dota2, with Tribes, even with single player games that have nothing to do with MMOs. Contrast these arbitrary obligations with Thief or with Minecraft or with all the weird and wonderful games out there. They are toys to be picked up and played. Most of these don’t care how much you play, they care about letting you play."

Hey Rickter, maybe this'll help you understand my point better! Please read it. I mean, gosh, he's comparing GW2 to other games! How dare he! So yes, this will help illuminate matters for you. Please, please read.

I could go on, but I won't. No need. Point made.

link or it didnt happen.


trololololol jk!  i hear ya dusk. . . i hear ya.  i too personally thought the writing in the Edge of Destiny book was juvenile to say the least.  Trahearne hasnt gotten under my skin yet, but i just met him.  i too am bummed out about the dodge roll and long cool down timers, i mean, its an action game but you have 20+ second CDs. . . what?

look, i know there are a lot of things that arent perfect about GW2, but ive played a lot of games man, a lot and there is something very special about GW2 and i know its not far from perfect pertaining to this genre.

people say they want the vertical progression because it keeps them busy, but no one really liked the idea of the gear you worked so hard for going obsolete within 3 months.  i remember when i was decked out in item level 258 gear in wow and everyone else in my guild was too and then they released item level 264 gear and everyone groaned.  its not fun.  what if they released FotM without an extra layer of gear?

idk man, i hear you but thats also the problem, i hear you.  and you never have a shred of good to say.  then i found out you dont even play GW2. . .  i mean, i know there are flaws, but im supporting this game because i am constantly impressed with stuff i see i nthe game, the hard work of the devs.  DEs still bring a smile to my face when i see players showing up out of the wood works, its amazing!  Rift gave me the same feeling, but Rift had a sub so im not playing it.

id say, turn that negativity around a little, find that faith you had in this company again and see what you can do to improve the game instead of disheartening everyone that cares to listen.

[omar316]

Rickter, on 08 December 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

id say, turn that negativity around a little, find that faith you had in this company again and see what you can do to improve the game instead of disheartening everyone that cares to listen.

Too many fanbois who just plain out defend this shit. Instead of sitting down and thinking how to improve the overall game. At this point I have all but given up. Though they made some critical changes, I guess its a lost cause.

I just would like to have a server merge and/or WvW redesign.

[Lydeck]

So ... do you do anything but trash the game?

[DuskWolf]

Lydeck, on 08 December 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

So ... do you do anything but trash the game?

I'm not trashing it, that's just the thing. You don't get it, do you?

Even ArenaNet fans should appreciate this. I mean, if we were more critical, the next GW2 expansion/campaign could have better writing standards, could be more focused around skill > time, it could have improved combat since they'd have the time to go back to the drawing board for that, it could fix a lot of things.

Answer me honestly: Are you really satisfied with the state of GW2 right now? Many people aren't. It's not trashing the game. Some part of me hopes that ArenaNet will actually listen to this, buck up, bite the bullet, take some bloody responsibility, and show us that they still respect the game that they were so passionate for. And even if that doesn't happen, then highlighting the problems with GW2 now will likely help the next game do better. Like I said, it's foolhardy to assume that marketing peeps, devs, and even producers don't check in on potential rivals to see what those games aren't doing that theirs could.

You may think I'm trashing the game. But you'd be wrong. There are plenty of people here who want to give lip-service to ArenaNet for, basically, a half-arsed effort. They should do better next time. Otherwise they're just reinforcing the idea that subscriptions are necessary for a quality game.

Let's back up. Can you claim that any of this is untrue?:

- A lot of the writing is very Saturday morning cartoon.
- A lot of the characters are forgettable or annoying (hi Trahearne).
- The combat isn't really all that fan (it's too slow).
- Coupled with the above, the AI is just a brainless zergbot.
- People aren't required to think as one or work together (barely anyone ever rezzes).
- The vertical progression system will, if left unchecked, eventually turn into a system of stats > skill/fun.
- The zones are exceedingly samey.
- The cities are pitiful excuses for what they could have been (no activities, also - see the concept art).

What I will say:

- A lot of effort was put into the zone design.
- The races have so much potential! But it's squandered with bad writing and vague lore.
- The waypoint system could be really fun without taxes, but with taxes it encourages isolationist lone wolf play.
- The weapon skill system is pretty great, but there need to be more than five skills for a weapon.
- Dodge-rolling could be an amazing addition without the limitations. By having a limit, it just feels like an afterthought*.
- The dye system could be amazing if it was account-based.
- There's just a lot in this game that could be great if they actually gave a rat's arse.

* If dodge-rolling becomes too OP because of invulnerability, then don't make players invulnerable. Give them an 8% defence increase and make the roll take them twice as far. Then let them use it as much as they like.

[ToySoldier]

MMORPG does have many different types of players.  GW2 may have tried to please different players in weapon skill sets.  In the guardian class I feel mace/focus is for relaxation mode, which is what I do.  Great sword is a bit more active.  A part of me thinks players who like more more active play may have more fun using weapons that fit their style.  Though I suspect they feel none of the weapons suit their style.

I play PvE to relax after a full day's work.  Pretty much I enjoy being somewhat near invincible in PvE. There is something thera-peutic (had to add dash jeez for bad word filter) about watching a monster die blow by blow with me able to chat with my gf in the evening.  She is watching TV.  I'm on my game.  We chat so I'm only playing with half a mind.  Relaxation.

When I want a challenge I go to higher level zones, or pull more mobs.  To me, WvW is a natural outlet for players who want a more exciting mode, and the game is made so that players can do WvW and level up, earn gear, etc.  I never do WvW.  My purpose in playing is to relax.  Not to get excited.  I have lots of excitement at work.

My handicapped friend likes easy mode in combat too.  He has a ton of time to kill.  MMORPGs are where he can have social interaction being he's trapped at home.  But if a game is made to be reflex-centric, he won't be able to play anymore.

Last night I went to explore the sewer pipes under Lions Arch, and a couple of vitias.  It was all I had time for.  I had fun imagining my favorite MMORPG RP bud making up stories about the sewer pipes.  I stood in an inn and listened to some roleplayers RP in the tavern.  I did not earn any loot but had fun.   I actually love the PvE world, especially the peaceful zones with green fields.  The zones I don't like are the undead, mildewy areas. I play for beautiful scenery.  It's a fun way to travel to a fantasy land without having to take a week off from work, get on an airplane, and spend thousands of dollars.  For me MMORPG is for armchair travel, done any time for 20 minutes of relaxation.

Players like me do exist.    While I can understand some players want exciting shooter type of game play.  If the game changes too much, it can end up losing other types of players as well.  For example, many of us do not enjoy jumping puzzles.  Witness the giant thread on the official forum about Mad King jumping puzzle.

I myself prefer match-3 puzzle games such as Fishdom.  Now, if some elements of match 3 puzzle are put in GW2, where we match skeletons, wolves, etc. and can earn exp and loot through it, I'd be so very happy.  For me then it'll be one thing I can do that will suit me. But I will not expect everyone to want to do it.

For me, match 3 is where there is is fun challenge, looking at a constant evolving game board filled with possibilities.  Making quick decisions sizing up all the possibilities.  It's more "fun and challenging" in my book than watching for mob animation and hitting one dodge key.  To me, the LOTRO loremaster watching an icon for pet proc to hit staff strike is akin to sitting in an assembly line watching a red light flicker then hit one key.  That's not strategy, only a reflex.    Hope this is not insulting. I'd do an assembly line if I had fun chatting with buddies.  But it's my true feeling about the lack of "fun", and it's why I don't feel jumping puzzles are that great.  It's more reflex than strategy.  I like true strategy.  I don't deny watching animations and doing jumping puzzles are skill.  I am not skilled.  

The reason I will not touch FoTM is: fractals are randomly thrown at us, and I may drag the whole group down when a jumping puzzle is thrown at us.  So these days the only thing I do is exploration in a peaceful PvE zone.  I do have fun there.  Others may find it boring.  I agree.  Personally though I love GW2 PvE. To me it is the best in all mmorpgs.  Most beautiful and idyllic.  Love it.

Edited by ToySoldier, 08 December 2012 - 08:07 AM.

[ToySoldier]

P.S.  Many players love WvW for its random "game board" (so to speak) when zerg forces move all over the places.  Match-3 is PvE version of WvW in my book.  Only a bit more so in the sense we are not just one player?  We are kind of like a the commander when we play match-3 puzzles.

And it's not so bad for GW2 PvE to have one more type of game included in its realm.  it is already trying to please jumping puzzle lovers.  MMORPGs in the end wish to entertain all segments of players.

P.S.S. I prefer match-3 because I don't enjoy killing people in a game. PvP/WvW means killing an avatar of a real player, just not something I like doing.

Edited by ToySoldier, 08 December 2012 - 08:44 AM.

[Gremlin]

Robsy128, on 08 December 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

The problem is that the world is persistent. Unless you mean add a hard mode to all of the instances, including personal story and dungeons?

Yeah stupid of me I was forgetting that its one big world with other players in it.
Hmm Handicapping the player wouldnt work either guess I will have a rethink.

[Robsy128]

BabyChooChoo, on 08 December 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

This is the type of thing I could get behind. I'm just throwing ideas out there just for the sake of discussion, but, for example, have fights be absolutely reliant on something.

Like, have a fight take place in this dark room with X number of torches. Every X minutes, the boss will blow out the torches, grab one party member, slowly chip away at their health and the rest of the party has to use fire-based skills to relight the torches so the boss drops the party member blahblahblah you get the idea.

Or have there be a fight where you have to fight waves and waves of enemies, but the ranged enemies can only be damaged by ranged attacks and the melee enemies can only be damaged by melee attacks.

Or another fight where certain combos and things are absolutely vital because unless you have Chaos/Frost armor then the boss one shots you or unless he's constantly chilled then he moves super fast or unless he's poisoned then all subsequent attacks only do 1 dmg etc etc. Just stuff like that.

These are all ideas off the top of my head so obviously there may be glaring flaws with them, but they're mostly just for sparking discussion like I said. Regardless, the point is, something that would require a greater level of teamwork would be welcome.

Yeah, definitely! I think the bosses in Fractals of the Mists are a vast improvement to the dungeon bosses we've encountered so far. When I was reading your idea about the boss blowing out torches, it reminded me of the snow Fractal where you have to light the torches to keep yourself warm. They're okay, but they're not as good as they can be.

Obviously when discussing harder content, you have to keep in mind the balance with the rest of the game world. I'm talking about the reward balance (money, karma, maybe even armour?). I think it would be unfair to give players better gear (statistically) for these new dungeons with these better boss encounters. However, I would say that they should be awarded with a certain skin for their armour/weapons. Just so that people don't flock to it, otherwise it will end up like Fractals of the Mists all over again.

I'd also love to see better boss encounters in the real world. Not necessarily harder, just better overall. Look at the dragon fights - there are various tools around the battlefield you can use to kill the bosses without putting yourself in too much danger. I think we should have more of these environmental weapons - especially where dynamic events occur. Honestly, I was walking outside the level 30-40 charr area (I forgot the name, but there's a fortress there with eagle gates), and I came across a dynamic event that told me to kill the Wasp Queen as well as the Wasp Soldier.
I was all by myself and there was nobody around. All of the NPCs were dead, and the Soldier as well as Queen were just impossible to fight because they killed me with two hits (even though I dodged and stayed alive for 5 minutes). This strikes me as a design flaw because I couldn't do that dynamic event. Not by myself, anyway. I think environmental weapons might help more with this so that people who stumble across dynamic events by themselves still have a chance of completing it.

I do think the teamwork aspect of Guild Wars 1 worked much better. I remember having to cripples bosses almost all of the time or having to attack, stop whilst the boss does some crazy move, and then attack again, etc.

Maybe even the dungeons themselves could be improved - i.e. a part of the ceiling caves in and you have to dodge it or you have to run away from a boss until you get to a certain area where you can use the environment to help kill him (like drop a giant bell on him), etc.

Just ideas that I'm throwing out there, but I think they could work if done right. I'd also love to see more puzzles in dungeons. Zelda and God of War did it right. Let's see some of those!

[syrin]

I love the PVE in this game, it's nice to get on and actually relax with a game. And they do actually have harder PVE, it's called dungeons. Sorry if your bored with it but I have 2 80s and 4 alts upcoming and am still having a blast. And yes there is room for improvement in the game it's not perfect but please leave PVE alone for those of us that don't want to pull our hair out playing.

[Sword Hammer Axe]

Nope.

...

Well, that was easy... anyone for coffee?

On a more serious note: I totally agree about the hearts. They're dull and repetitive and a poor substitute for traditional quests. The idea was that they didn't want a wall of text, but the walls of text were actually what made people intrigued about their tasks. They learned the story of the NPC in question, and often this story contained hidden/open information of the world's lore. They didn't want the "collect x amount of this and that," but as I see it 70% of the heart quests are just that.

As for the dynamic events I couldn't disagree more. They are as little repetitive as can be. I mean, they have the possibility of going in several directions for everyone to participate in. That you can do the same DE several times isn't what makes it repetitive, I mean they weren't meant for you alone to try, but the fact that you do it several times is. Story wise they're not meant to be something completely related to your character either, but something related to the world itself that your character simply participates in. You're not a general here, but a simple footsoldier (albeit a more skilled one of the kind).

Also: In Diablo II, WoW, GW1, and all other MMO's I've tried I've had the same problem with being bored in the first few levels. I'm not saying it's supposed to be boring then, but give it a try for the more mid-/high-leveled content. That's usually where your skills get tested in the PvE, as the low levels are for you to learn the game mechanics. Level 13 is too early to be able to say anything with certainty

[Shadow Warrior]

I'm just waiting for an MMO with 3 things:

1. Dark Souls combat, armor and resource mechanics, with similar AI (the AI in Dark Souls was wonderful)
2. A Sandbox, Ultima Online style world with a few themepark restrictions to stop it from becoming a ganking troll fest
3. Bioware writers

[Asudementio]

PvE is both harder and easier than i'd like it. At times it feels rather difficult to manage the events and survive,but the gameplay format is made easy in that the penalty for death is minor. If penalties for failure were much greater (like a town being burnt to the ground if we didn't protect it from the centaurs) and it easier to fail events i think PvE would be much more compelling. Oh and more awesome looking items would be nice.

[DuskWolf]

@Shadow Warrior

Sigh. If only.

Don't tease me with the possibility. We know it'll never happen. :c

[Bryant Again]

Many of mentioned bringing back the Zaishen dailies, and I wouldn't mind seeing the same idea apply to GW2: There's a huge world they could keep making me go back to, it's just Cursed Shore now.

Edited by Bryant Again, 08 December 2012 - 08:21 PM.

[BabyChooChoo]

Shadow Warrior, on 08 December 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

I'm just waiting for an MMO with 3 things:

1. Dark Souls combat, armor and resource mechanics, with similar AI (the AI in Dark Souls was wonderful)
2. A Sandbox, Ultima Online style world with a few themepark restrictions to stop it from becoming a ganking troll fest
3. Bioware writers

I hope you enjoy waiting a long time then. Don't get me wrong, I'm right there with you with those hopes as well, but the reality is those things together would cost a lot of money and time. The AI thing, for example, would be absolutely wonderful, but would require a godlike team of programmers and designers to make it work perfectly in an MMO and I'm not exaggerating when I say godlike lol.

There's a lot of interesting tech and just game design in general coming out Korea these days though and, as odd as it sounds (given the Korean grindfest stigma), methinks they would be the ones to pull it off first.

[Xsiriss]

The only challenge PvE represents right now is more akin to a puzzle game. Things like dungeons (ie the main organised PvE content) just involve taking enough dps as necessary to kill the 1million hp bosses and stay alive. There needs to be more variety of both content and ways to do it, which means a lot more skill variety as well as enemies.