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Play Guild Wars 2 as it's meant to be played, with a controller.

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#61 TKTindelible

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:20 PM

View PostMisterB, on 28 August 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

a ) This is true. Mouse is faster and more precise than an analog stick can ever be.
b ) Shift state toggles solves this. It's easy to bind 50+ or even 70+ keys on a controller. I think I have ~40-50 now, but I can add more. Simultaneous inputs is a limitation to this solution.

The same sentiment is applicable to my keyboard. On my set up I have 17 abilities on key binds, and can then bind another 17 to shift+, another 17 to ctrl+, another 17 to alt+, and - due to my keyboard being awesome - I can also use the Win key for another 17+. That's 68 abilities on 5 shift states. And that's only using keys left of 6, T, G, and B, so there's a huge amount of space for yet more. As a matter of accessibility, the keyboard beat the controller as the keyboard can have more abilities on less button states.

I'd also hazard that the controller set up needed adds travel time to abilities, so you're losing anything up to half a second on casts. That might be OK in PvE, but when you hit a server lag spike and are having to deal with slight delays anyway... that's going to add to your problems in PvP. And before you go "there is no latency on button press", there is; I've tested it extensively across multiple games. It's slight, of course, but it's still there.

The range of motion that a keyboard/mouse allows you outstrips anything you can hope to gain from a controller. The placement of AoE abilities may well be "easy" on a controller, but you gain a lot more precision on a mouse. Precision is a key factor here as well, because it impacts so many areas of game play. There's a reason console shooters come with native aim assist in-built and PC shooters don't; that's down to a lack of sensitivity and precision allowed by controllers.

So if we're looking at a controller and tallying points based on a functional comparison between it and a keyboard/mouse, the controller does not come out on top.

THAT SAID...

The vast majority of people aren't playing to be bleeding edge. They're not going to notice a slight delay on button press. They're not going to want to key up more than 30-40 abilities. They're not going to want endless precision on their AoEs. Most people playing the game are going to be playing casually. They'll want to sit back and relax into the game; the controller certainly serves this function well.

So if you want to use the controller, feel free to do so. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. However... don't try to claim it is allows comparable levels of control and precision to a keyboard and mouse set up, because it really doesn't.

#62 MisterB

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:24 PM

View PostFleshgrinder, on 28 August 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

But with b, now I'm going out of my way to create a complex set of buttons using shift states to emulate what my keyboard already does without modification.

And with C, yes, that was kind of my point.

A controller is not objectively "more comfortable", it is simply more comfortable for some.

Some of us find literally no benefit to using a controller. It offers me nothing.

Fair enough. A controller does have the advantage of grouping all of your inputs closer together*, but as you pointed out, this can be a disadvantage if you have larger hands and a small controller. My fingers are not long enough, and my hands are too small to use the keyboard with keybinds spread out. Plus, I'm used to controllers and never adapted to playing with keyboards.

I think the thread title is provocative. Controllers are just a different option that some gamers may prefer. The majority of PC only players will not exercise that option, and that's fine.

*Disregard if you also use shift state toggles with the keyboard, but last I heard, you need 3rd party software for this in GW2.

View PostTKTindelible, on 28 August 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Spoiler

I don't know what you mean or where you're going with this, but I can execute skills in 200 ms or less. It doesn't take anywhere near 1/2 a second, and I frequently used multiple skills/second in GW1. I was also able to swap weapons and select and change targets at those speeds. I don't have GW2 yet, but the only key difference is the necessity for simultaneous movement and skill activation, which I have already solved.

Latency on button press is literally negligible if it is even an actual factor.

Edited by MisterB, 28 August 2012 - 04:45 PM.


#63 Fleshgrinder

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:35 PM

View PostMisterB, on 28 August 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

Fair enough. A controller does have the advantage of grouping all of your inputs closer together*, but as you pointed out, this can be a disadvantage if you have larger hands and a small controller. My fingers are not long enough, and my hands are too small to use the keyboard with keybinds spread out. Plus, I'm used to controllers and never adapted to playing with keyboards.

I think the thread title is provocative. Controllers are just a different option that some gamers may prefer. The majority of PC only players will not exercise that option, and that's fine.

*Disregard if you also use shift state toggles with the keyboard, but last I heard, you need 3rd party software for this in GW2.

Yes, it's an option, but I'm just pointing out that most of us choose not to use the option not because of a stigma, but because after a long enough time the controller ceases having any advantage over the keyboard and mouse.

Sure, if you're not used to computer chairs it could suck, but I work on computers and play on computers. I type 20 times the amount that I speak. I spend 16 hours in front of a PC a day, my body has literally changed shape to accommodate this.

Because of this, the one advantage a controller may have for some, comfort, just doesn't apply to us.

#64 Stinkfinger75

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:56 PM

View PostJaicob, on 28 August 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

The Naga's alright but don't expect much more than 12 months usage out of them... They tend to develop a double-clicking bug after repeated use. They're useful if you've got cash to burn but I can't really reccomend 'em after my experiences.

What's the naga like to use?  Don't all those buttons under your thumb get confusing?

#65 Stinkfinger75

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:12 PM

View PostKrecion, on 28 August 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

Any update on the chatpad's functionality?

Unfortunately it looks like it won't work. I seems that microsoft haven't released a driver for it. There is a homebrew driver out there, but it only works with a corded controller, requires massive hoop jumping, and even then there's no guarantee it will work.

#66 Red_Eye_Dreams

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:13 PM

If you type more than 20 times what you speak to people and spend 16+ hours in front of a computer screen, work or not, you need to seriously think about a vacation away from electricity or internet.  The last thing you should worry about is if someone decide to ENJOY their game by using a controller or keyboard.  Is that crazy, ENJOY a game.  For someone who disregards the word comfort that probably has no meaing to you. And no offense, no one "adapts" to a computer chair.  Your body, back, and joints are just deteriorating.

#67 Krecion

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:14 PM

View PostStinkfinger75, on 28 August 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Unfortunately it looks like it won't work. I seems that microsoft haven't released a driver for it. There is a homebrew driver out there, but it only works with a corded controller, requires massive hoop jumping, and even then there's no guarantee it will work.

Thanks for the update. I don't mind having the keyboard right there. Having the option to PvE with a controller is very nice, though. Thanks for your work on this!

#68 Itharius

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:22 PM

Props to the OP for posting keybindings.

As for the immediate, thoughtless posts that controllers don't belong in PC gaming, you guys really need to check yourselves and stop trolling. Unlike many of you, I actually BUILD my own rigs and I don't actively play on consoles, and I use a gamepad for vehicle games and platformers on PC. It's easy to be an armchair elitist and make silly claims until you realize how noncontributory to the OP's discussion your comments really are. We don't need them here, we don't want them here, and you'd be better off just not saying anything.

#69 Fleshgrinder

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:26 PM

View PostItharius, on 28 August 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

Props to the OP for posting keybindings.

As for the immediate, thoughtless posts that controllers don't belong in PC gaming, you guys really need to check yourselves and stop trolling. Unlike many of you, I actually BUILD my own rigs and I don't actively play on consoles, and I use a gamepad for vehicle games and platformers on PC. It's easy to be an armchair elitist and make silly claims until you realize how noncontributory to the OP's discussion your comments really are. We don't need them here, we don't want them here, and you'd be better off just not saying anything.

I think you'll notice a lot of arguments on here against controllers that have nothing to do with being elitists.

The OP made statements of affirmation.

He said "Play GW2  as it is meant to be played.", implying that he believes a controller to be superior.

Many of us countered this opinion, not because we're elitists, but because the OP made an incorrect statement and we're correcting it for him.

If you want to use a controller, that's cool, just don't make statements like "it's better" when we can show you the physical stats of both pieces of hardware and prove that incorrect.

Instead the OP should have said "I like playing GW2 with a controller", instead he implied his way of play was correct and other styles of play were incorrect.

#70 Killminusnine

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:31 PM

View PostStinkfinger75, on 28 August 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

Based on what?  This isn't Call of Duty, lightning quick mouse reaction time doesn't mean much in an MMO.

No offense intended... but you might be doing it wrong.  You don't need anything other than basic motor skills to PVE but trying to do SPVP with a gamepad would put you at a noticable disadvantage.

#71 GW2_Zangetsu

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:55 PM

Been playing with a 360 controller since I have started.
It feels great to just be able to sit back on the couch and go at it.

In fairness, I couldn't see myself using a controller if I was any profession other than the warrior.

Edited by GW2_Zangetsu, 28 August 2012 - 05:56 PM.


#72 rayhorakhty

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:01 PM

hurr hurr, go back to cod...mouse better than controller! :P

Seriously, this is awesome. Switched over to playing GW2 with a controller yesterday and I don't think I'll be going back!

The big thing for me is the streamlined and easy-to-get-to controls. No matter how much I rebinded my keys on my keyboard, there was always a bunch of keys that were awkward to get to and press. The controller completely eliminates that, giving me quicker and more accurate reaction times.

The kb/mouse combo still reigns supreme for highly competitive players, but for casuals like me, the controller rocks! I can't believe I'm playing an MMO with a damn controller! :lol:

Edited by rayhorakhty, 28 August 2012 - 06:02 PM.


#73 Itharius

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:03 PM

View PostFleshgrinder, on 28 August 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

I think you'll notice a lot of arguments on here against controllers that have nothing to do with being elitists.

The OP made statements of affirmation.

He said "Play GW2  as it is meant to be played.", implying that he believes a controller to be superior.

Many of us countered this opinion, not because we're elitists, but because the OP made an incorrect statement and we're correcting it for him.

If you want to use a controller, that's cool, just don't make statements like "it's better" when we can show you the physical stats of both pieces of hardware and prove that incorrect.

Instead the OP should have said "I like playing GW2 with a controller", instead he implied his way of play was correct and other styles of play were incorrect.
The title was a hyperbolic remark that the OP was trying to use to express how intuitive he found the gamepad controls. He wasn't actually saying that GW2 was meant to be played with a controller, only that it feels like a third person action game to him, and that gamepads are intuitive with those sorts of games. It wasn't his intention at all to argue that playing with a mouse is incorrect, you're reading what he wrote too literally and nitpicking it for something it doesn't mean.

Edited by Itharius, 28 August 2012 - 06:04 PM.


#74 Viryn

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:04 PM

I can see how the controller would work for some instances, but I will never give up the kb/mouse combo.  If this was a combat only game where you map 1-5 keys to buttons and maybe a dodge or two to the shoulder buttons, then fine, but there's so much more going on and you need to have those keys readily available.  

Just get a gaming mouse and call it a day.  I use the naga and having a couple programmable keys on the mouse works wonders for combat.

#75 Converse

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:08 PM

View PostXenharmonic, on 28 August 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

"You can now play Guild Wars 2 as a third person action game, and honestly, it feels like it was designed to be played this way."

Mouse and keyboard are superior for third person action games, for example, mass effect.

Guild Wars 2 is the same :).

Try Dark Souls with mouse and keyboard :huh:

#76 Fleshgrinder

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:10 PM

View PostItharius, on 28 August 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

The title was a hyperbolic remark that the OP was trying to use to express how intuitive he found the gamepad controls. He wasn't actually saying that GW2 was meant to be played with a controller, only that it feels like a platformer at times, and that gamepads are intuitive with platforming games. It wasn't his intention at all to argue that playing with a mouse is incorrect, you're reading what he wrote too literally and nitpicking it for something it doesn't mean.

And his use of hyperbole is what lead to the responses against him. He could have instead chosen to use clear language.

I don't care what the opinion is, when I see opinion masquerading as fact I will attack it, and I will attack it hard.

Even if that masquerade is meant as hyperbole.

A person who expresses their opinion as fact deserves all the bad things that come from it.

It is impossible to express hyperbole and sarcasm in text, so it's best to simply never use the two in the written form.

View PostConverse, on 28 August 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Try Dark Souls with mouse and keyboard :huh:

I am, it's easy.

Console gamers kept telling us to prepare to die, then PC players started posting speed runs on YouTube using keyboard and mouse.

Dark Souls is not a difficult game, it's a reflexes and pattern recognition.

It's just a slightly more complicated game of simon says, except that simon only ever yells "DODGE!".

#77 Raiden_Kyo

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:19 PM

View PostTyestor, on 28 August 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

I'd like every "person" (I use that term loosely) who uses a controller in this game to write down their in-game names and servers so that the people who actually choose to not be terrible at the game by using keyboard + mouse can steer far clear from you. Nobody with a brain wants to play with someone that impairs themselves voluntarily by using an inferior control mechanism and by extension pulling the group down with them.

What an ignorant comment. The OP is just sharing his idea, you don't have to use it. But you also don't need to be a jerk and insult people that choose to play with a controller. Just because some people want to play a different way then you do, does not make them bad. Grow up Seriously.

#78 rayhorakhty

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:21 PM

View PostViryn, on 28 August 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

I can see how the controller would work for some instances, but I will never give up the kb/mouse combo.  If this was a combat only game where you map 1-5 keys to buttons and maybe a dodge or two to the shoulder buttons, then fine, but there's so much more going on and you need to have those keys readily available.  

Just get a gaming mouse and call it a day.  I use the naga and having a couple programmable keys on the mouse works wonders for combat.

But all those keys are available on the controller. The profile this guy has made is using a very clever system that allows a button to function two different ways: a simple press and a press and hold. As this guy has stated and I can confirm, you are not gimped in any way in combat; you have all combat related commands at your disposal.

#79 Vsin

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:24 PM

I type too often, so this would be cumbersome as heck.

However, I can totally understand why it would be awesome in combat.  Unless you were a Staff Necromancer.

#80 Brendan

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:27 PM

Never tried using a controller for a PC game before but this does sound interesting. Thanks! I'll definitely give it a try...

#81 reanor

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 08:20 PM

View PostStinkfinger75, on 28 August 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

Yes, with a controller.

Stay with me here.

I have been perfecting my profile since beta weekend 2 and am excited to say that it works flawlessly.  You can now play Guild Wars 2 as a third person action game, and honestly, it feels like it was designed to be played this way.

Yes, you can easily cast ground targeted spells.  Yes, all of the controls fit on the controller.  Yes, the ease of movement, casting, and attacking trumps anything you can do with a keyboard and mouse.  Yes, it feels a bit like cheating.

As a note, this profile was created to replace the keyboard and mouse for combat only.  Let's not be naive, the keyboard and mouse is still the way to go for menu navigation, inventory, etc, but for minute to minute gameplay you will never need to touch the keyboard and mouse.

See all my notes and grab my profile right here:
http://pinnaclegamep...66670#post66670

Enjoy! :lol:

Tried the GW2 beta with similar profile and decided that i want all my camera rotations and inventory access on the fly. So switched back to keyboard-mouse.

#82 bhavv

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 10:03 PM

Works a lot better with an MMO gaming mouse like the Razer Naga.

Im personally using a cheapskate macro mouse with just 2 thumb buttons and 3 middle button clicks, but all of these are fine for skills 6-0, and I use the keyboard for 1-5.

#83 Stinkfinger75

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 12:03 AM

This...

View PostTKTindelible, on 28 August 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

The vast majority of people aren't playing to be bleeding edge. They're not going to notice a slight delay on button press. They're not going to want to key up more than 30-40 abilities. They're not going to want endless precision on their AoEs. Most people playing the game are going to be playing casually. They'll want to sit back and relax into the game; the controller certainly serves this function well.

...but not this.  I'd argue that the travel time on a controller is better because everything you need to use is right under your thumbs and fingertips with little room for error.  On a keyboard you are using a larger pool of keys, spread out further and with an offset pattern can create finger confusion.  Do you really use 50 plus keybinds for GW2?  How do you keep all that straight?

View PostTKTindelible, on 28 August 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

I'd also hazard that the controller set up needed adds travel time to abilities, so you're losing anything up to half a second on casts. That might be OK in PvE, but when you hit a server lag spike and are having to deal with slight delays anyway... that's going to add to your problems in PvP. And before you go "there is no latency on button press", there is; I've tested it extensively across multiple games. It's slight, of course, but it's still there.


#84 kartana

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 12:19 AM

Interesting. I just thought about this while playing Darksiders 2. Dodging is made for controllers IMHO.

#85 Stinkfinger75

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 02:02 AM

View PostKillminusnine, on 28 August 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

No offense intended... but you might be doing it wrong.  You don't need anything other than basic motor skills to PVE but trying to do SPVP with a gamepad would put you at a noticable disadvantage.

I disagree, GW2 is a game that requires you to have a tome's worth of knowledge to be any good at PvP, the motor skills are secondary.  Also speaking of motor skills, I feel it takes far less effort to manipulate a controller than a keyboard and mouse seeing as a controller is designed with gaming in mind.  Even the most specialized gaming keyboard (like mine) is still just a keyboard.

#86 Stinkfinger75

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 02:16 AM

View PostFleshgrinder, on 28 August 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

Dark Souls is not a difficult game, it's a reflexes and pattern recognition.

The only comment you've made all thread that I agree with.  ^_^

View Postrayhorakhty, on 28 August 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

But all those keys are available on the controller. The profile this guy has made is using a very clever system that allows a button to function two different ways: a simple press and a press and hold. As this guy has stated and I can confirm, you are not gimped in any way in combat; you have all combat related commands at your disposal.

The man speaks the truth.  Every possible combat command you need is mapped to the controller in an easy to follow manner.

Someone who has actually read my post over on Pinnacle's forums and given it a shot.  Thanks for the kind words rayhorakhty, so how is it working out for you?

Just curious, has anyone else tried it out yet?

View PostViryn, on 28 August 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

I didn't realize it at first, but he's definitely trying to sell a product.

Not at all.  Pinnacle is a program that I've been using for about eight years.  They support the hell out of it, constantly update it, and have an excellent product on their hands.  If they sell a couple extra copies because of me, well, they deserve it.

Edited by Stinkfinger75, 29 August 2012 - 02:20 AM.


#87 Rodann

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 02:20 AM

I think its an awesome idea. I hate having to play with kb/mouse.  I grew up on console games and I can play wayyyy better with a controller. I dont type to anyone, Im in mumble. And wtf is wrong with people lol, why do you care if someone uses a controller or not. Do what you want and shut up.

#88 Killminusnine

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 02:23 AM

View PostStinkfinger75, on 29 August 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

I disagree, GW2 is a game that requires you to have a tome's worth of knowledge to be any good at PvP, the motor skills are secondary.  Also speaking of motor skills, I feel it takes far less effort to manipulate a controller than a keyboard and mouse seeing as a controller is designed with gaming in mind.  Even the most specialized gaming keyboard (like mine) is still just a keyboard.

You do need to know a lot about GW2 PVP to be successful but I would argue that that knowledge is secondary to motor skills. A bad player will always be bad even if he learns the visual cues or strategies of PVP.  He still needs to control his camera, something a mouse is better at than a controller.  He still needs good control of his targetting and target selection which a keyboard/mouse is better than a controller at.  In GW2, the slower player usually loses and a gaming pad will slow you down.  Can you get comfortable and relatively smooth with?  Sure.  Can you even get *good* with it?  Sure... but you'll always be better with the same amount of practice using a mouse/keyboard.  

I understand some people like a gamepad and I'm not disparaging that choice.  I'm simply saying that claiming that a gamepad is superior or even on par with a KB/M is absurd.  There's a reason why almost no game makers ever combine their console and PC player base for multiplayer games.  When it has been tried, the console gamers got murdered.

#89 Stinkfinger75

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 02:41 AM

View PostKillminusnine, on 29 August 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

In GW2, the slower player usually loses and a gaming pad will slow you down.

I just don't understand this.  How does a controller slow you down in GW2?  It's not a game of frantically snapping the camera 180 degrees or blazing fast reaction times.  It's more about strategy, playing to your strengths and your enemies' weaknesses.  I would also offer that the mobility a controller affords your character is better than what you get with a keyboard and mouse.  Using the kb/m you need four keys just to move, one to jump and one to dodge (if you unbound "double tap to dodge), at a bare minimum you're using one finger to move, at maximum you're using two to move (if straffing and moving backwards for example which is extremely common) and one to jump and another to dodge, and if you didn't disable "double tap to dodge" then you're double tapping also.  I can do all of that on one stick and one button.

Edited by Stinkfinger75, 29 August 2012 - 02:42 AM.


#90 Abaregi

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 03:10 AM

This game was not meant or designed to be played with a controller.
I mean just look at the default controls..





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