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Minion's Invincible Thief Build

thief death blossom glass cannon spam

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#361 iluvthis3

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:13 AM

I'm just hit level 80 a couple of days ago , I've tried both condition dmg and crit build . Im fine with condition build but i have AoE issues with critical build . Any ways to take down like 5 mobs ? Death blossom doesn't really dmg much apart from the bleeding

#362 atomicmew

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:55 AM

View PostMinion, on 30 October 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

Haste and/or Assassin's Signet offer a far greater DPS.
(Again, for condition build) I don't think so.  Show some math showing that haste provides more DPS than caltrops.

#363 Dimday

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 09:23 AM

View Postiluvthis3, on 30 October 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

I'm just hit level 80 a couple of days ago , I've tried both condition dmg and crit build . Im fine with condition build but i have AoE issues with critical build . Any ways to take down like 5 mobs ? Death blossom doesn't really dmg much apart from the bleeding
Using Sigil of Fire can help but beyond that you'll just have to spam Dancing Dagger or Cluster Bomb for AoE if you don't feel like bursting the mobs down one by one is a good option. Sadly a good AoE option isn't really available for direct damage D/D, which makes sense considering the godly amount of burst it can put out.

#364 Dairuiner

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 06:05 PM

View PostMinion, on 30 October 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

Stun Breakers are amazing in dungeons... You may be surprised how often you get snared and a stunbreaker gets you out. RoI also doubles as a third evade. How can you say a skill that just bleeds and cripples a bit offers more initiative/utility than a skill specifically designed to give you initiative? And Shadow Shroud will give you +2i if you're traited. Haste and/or Assassin's Signet offer a far greater DPS.

Re: Caltrops.. it effectively applies a 6s bleed, 12 times in 12 seconds, or 72 tics of bleed. 1 LDB applies 3 10s bleeds, or 30 tics of bleed.  So, 1 caltrops is worth approx 2.4 LDB in terms of bleeds (maybe more like 2LDB equivalent if you do add in the direct damage from LDB).  In addition it cripples, and has a 5-target AOE (vs 3-target of LDB.)  It's on a 30s recast (or 24s traited, vs 60s for RFI.) It's amazing for a condi build.

RFI gives you 6 ini, so 1.2 LDB's. Every 60 seconds.  So I'd say this choice comes down to whether you want to be offensive or defensive... caltrops for more damage, RFI for the stun break and extra evade via LDB.

Also, considering the points already invested in trickery, I'm really suprised that caltrops on dodge hasn't been mentioned... I believe it's only a small field that lasts 4 seconds, but it's still applying that 6s bleed 4 times (or 24 tics of bleed, almost a whole LDB!), costs no initiative and takes up no utility slots.

And honestly, why is haste even being mentioned for a PvE build? In any fight longer than 15 seconds all it gets you is maybe 2 extra autoattack chains (if you're using it to burn through ini faster then you just sputter out of ini faster, net dps gain = 0)... while in a condition build, your autoattack chain ain't anything to write home about.  Plus you could be using the lost energy to dodge more with caltrops-on-dodge for even more damage. Nix the haste.

Assassin's signet? You really need to decide if you're a condi or a power build. They don't play very well together.

PS. if you're still not sold on caltrops, try this... go to the heart of the mists, slap on a rampager's amulet, and plop a caltrops on a training dummy and just sit back and watch him melt. Dodge on him a few times with caltrops-on-dodge for extra fun. That's all passive, brutal, and initiative-free damage. Pretty effective way to up your DPS while waiting for that pesky initiative to come back, wouldn't you say?

Edited by Dairuiner, 30 October 2012 - 06:31 PM.


#365 Dairuiner

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 06:49 PM

View Postiluvthis3, on 30 October 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

I'm just hit level 80 a couple of days ago , I've tried both condition dmg and crit build . Im fine with condition build but i have AoE issues with critical build . Any ways to take down like 5 mobs ? Death blossom doesn't really dmg much apart from the bleeding

D/D can be EITHER excellent condition damage for single-target and AOE, OR excellent direct damage for a single-target. Pretty much have to take your pick and build for it.  S/P on the other hand has excellent direct damage to both single-target AND AOE. If you want to see big numbers all over at all times, consider giving S/P a try.

Edited by Dairuiner, 30 October 2012 - 06:52 PM.


#366 atomicmew

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 03:28 AM

View PostDairuiner, on 30 October 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Re: Caltrops.. it effectively applies a 6s bleed, 12 times in 12 seconds, or 72 tics of bleed. 1 LDB applies 3 10s bleeds, or 30 tics of bleed.  So, 1 caltrops is worth approx 2.4 LDB in terms of bleeds (maybe more like 2LDB equivalent if you do add in the direct damage from LDB).  In addition it cripples, and has a 5-target AOE (vs 3-target of LDB.)  It's on a 30s recast (or 24s traited, vs 60s for RFI.) It's amazing for a condi build.

RFI gives you 6 ini, so 1.2 LDB's. Every 60 seconds.  So I'd say this choice comes down to whether you want to be offensive or defensive... caltrops for more damage, RFI for the stun break and extra evade via LDB.

Also, considering the points already invested in trickery, I'm really suprised that caltrops on dodge hasn't been mentioned... I believe it's only a small field that lasts 4 seconds, but it's still applying that 6s bleed 4 times (or 24 tics of bleed, almost a whole LDB!), costs no initiative and takes up no utility slots.

And honestly, why is haste even being mentioned for a PvE build? In any fight longer than 15 seconds all it gets you is maybe 2 extra autoattack chains (if you're using it to burn through ini faster then you just sputter out of ini faster, net dps gain = 0)... while in a condition build, your autoattack chain ain't anything to write home about.  Plus you could be using the lost energy to dodge more with caltrops-on-dodge for even more damage. Nix the haste.

Assassin's signet? You really need to decide if you're a condi or a power build. They don't play very well together.

PS. if you're still not sold on caltrops, try this... go to the heart of the mists, slap on a rampager's amulet, and plop a caltrops on a training dummy and just sit back and watch him melt. Dodge on him a few times with caltrops-on-dodge for extra fun. That's all passive, brutal, and initiative-free damage. Pretty effective way to up your DPS while waiting for that pesky initiative to come back, wouldn't you say?
This.

Though to be fair, haste + dagger storm = hilarimazing, I don't think it's worth the slot.

Also, the "hard to catch" trait animation + sound effect is really annoying, which is why I would never slot it :P

#367 Minion

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 05:47 AM

Well, I haven't used Haste in a while, since I've been running the crits build and a more defensive utility setup, but the burst damage you get can help quickly clean out a single mob and you can still dodge with RfI. But honestly, there's not much point in debating the tiny details against non-vet enemies, since most enemies only take a couple of swipes anyway, and only a couple of DBs. When fighting a champ or any kind of dungeon creature, Haste is going to be stronger in a team, since there is always going to be more than one bleeder in the team. The thief can maintain poison just by autoattack, and bleeding from DB. All you need then is to maintain a constant DBage along with a flow of autoattacks.

@traversc; I missed you :D

#368 Dairuiner

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:04 AM

Caltrops...

I got curious and did some testing...not sure where my 6s number on the bleed duration came from considering the tooltip says 3s... however it actually applies 2 stacks of bleed per tic, and applies them 16 times in 14 seconds. (try it on a dummy, you'll see what i mean.) In measuring damage done versus the health of the golem, etc, i came up with between 96-106 total tics of bleed from a single application of caltrops.  

If you're running enough condition damage to get tics of 100 on bleeds (which is very easy to do) then you're talking 10k+ damage from a 1-second cast ability every 30 seconds, no initiative cost. A single LDB is getting you 3k bleed damage given the same circumstances, making caltrops bleed more than 3 LDB's.

Also, the dodge caltrops actually tics 17 times total, in a quite small radius, so not as useful against moving mobs but still respectable against stationary ones.

Sorry for the extreme min/maxing.  You can ignore the numbers and take the tl:dr as: Caltrops utility is amazing in a condi build.

#369 Minion

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:24 AM

View PostDairuiner, on 31 October 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

Caltrops...

I got curious and did some testing...not sure where my 6s number on the bleed duration came from considering the tooltip says 3s... however it actually applies 2 stacks of bleed per tic, and applies them 16 times in 14 seconds. (try it on a dummy, you'll see what i mean.) In measuring damage done versus the health of the golem, etc, i came up with between 96-106 total tics of bleed from a single application of caltrops.  

If you're running enough condition damage to get tics of 100 on bleeds (which is very easy to do) then you're talking 10k+ damage from a 1-second cast ability every 30 seconds, no initiative cost. A single LDB is getting you 3k bleed damage given the same circumstances, making caltrops bleed more than 3 LDB's.

Also, the dodge caltrops actually tics 17 times total, in a quite small radius, so not as useful against moving mobs but still respectable against stationary ones.

Sorry for the extreme min/maxing.  You can ignore the numbers and take the tl:dr as: Caltrops utility is amazing in a condi build.

Perhaps I will change my tune when bleeds stack higher. Thanks for testing, though.

#370 atomicmew

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:43 AM

Haha, I didnt think you'd remember my avatar.

#371 Fatal Flaw

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:38 AM

Hi Minion,
I've been using your builds and I really like them. I'm lvl 70 atm and I'm going for 100% world completion on this character. I mostly use the condition build you posted and normal mobs are really a breeze. Skill point foes/veterans are also pretty easy to solo. It seems like most people are using the critical build, but I don't really see how you can have AoE damage with that build. I understand you don't really need AoE for dungeons, but for world completion it seems like a must.

So which build is better for world completion? Is it possible to combine the builds into a hybrid backstab/DB build?

Thanks :)

#372 Minion

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:21 AM

View PostFatal Flaw, on 04 November 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

Hi Minion,
I've been using your builds and I really like them. I'm lvl 70 atm and I'm going for 100% world completion on this character. I mostly use the condition build you posted and normal mobs are really a breeze. Skill point foes/veterans are also pretty easy to solo. It seems like most people are using the critical build, but I don't really see how you can have AoE damage with that build. I understand you don't really need AoE for dungeons, but for world completion it seems like a must.

So which build is better for world completion? Is it possible to combine the builds into a hybrid backstab/DB build?

Thanks :)

Whichever works for you; it's all down to preference once you get down to the two builds. I wouldn't recommend mixing the gear too much, since you'd lose burst damage or bleed damage respectively.

#373 Suigetsu

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:22 PM

Hi, new to 80, why do you use runes of the scholar for the condition damage build, when they don't add condition damage? Thank you! Loving this build thus far.

I'm preparing for dungeons, but I fear for the parts where my team will need DPS for taking down objects like burrows fast, but I love the condition damage.

Also what's the rational behind using sleight of hand for PVE? Whereas that same sot could be used to get an extra 4 initiative on heal

Edited by Suigetsu, 05 November 2012 - 01:24 PM.


#374 Fenice_86

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:41 PM

Hi, maybe my question has already been answered between these 13 pages but i'll do it...

In the crit build you talk about equipping Zerk or Valk armor set... why not Knight?

Wouldnt a mix of 3/3 Valk + Knight armor and full Zerk trinkets + weapons a better solution?
If not, can you please tell me why?

What runes would work better?

Thanks a lot :)

#375 Minion

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:24 PM

View PostFenice_86, on 05 November 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

In the crit build you talk about equipping Zerk or Valk armor set... why not Knight?

If not, can you please tell me why?


Simply because those two armour sets offer Critical damage. That's all that really matters for the backstab build.

View PostSuigetsu, on 05 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

Also what's the rational behind using sleight of hand for PVE? Whereas that same sot could be used to get an extra 4 initiative on heal

4i every 13 seconds or a 1s Daze? I'd go for the daze, because you don't want to be forced into using Signet of Malice on recharge; you would end up not benefiting from having it for it's main purpose. Sleight of Hand means disabling an attack or two every 30 seconds and removing one tick of defiant.

#376 Dulci Ti

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:13 PM

What's the status on the condition build? Is it current? Are you still giving it the thumbs up? I just finished leveling to 80 with that build and I started it when I was around level 11 maybe? Works well. But I have on occasion made a tiny change here and there depending on what we're doing.

Anyway, just making sure you're still advocating your original post.

#377 Suigetsu

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:31 PM

Why use runes of scholar for a condition damage build? Something I am missing?

#378 malevolence

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:50 PM

hi,thank you for the builds, first let me say, that the links to the builds provides a different set of skills than mentioned in your post, I know is not big deal, but it got me confuse at first :P. I am running the High powered crits, currently level 49, and have few questions/doubts:

1-What weapons and weapons mods are recommended? I am using D/D and P/P

2-basic usage: cloak as often as possible, keeping Revealed up means you're maximising your damage, and stay behind the target while autoattacking. Also, use Hide in Shadows to lead into another backstab while near-downed]. What do you mean by keeping Revealed up means you're maximising your damage? I don't see any traits/skills, that says while in Revealed stance you do more damage. I am confused here.

3-What about Elite skills? what is recommended?

Edited by malevolence, 07 November 2012 - 03:26 PM.


#379 Shadak

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 04:16 PM

For 2.) I think he means this:

When you're cloaked and behind a target, you'll get the "backstab" instead of the standard autoattack.
Backstab deals double damage, so if you're keeping yourself stealthed you're maximising your damage by using backstab and reenter stealth.

The 3.) is possible a matter of style. Some people tend to use Daggerstorm while others use basilisk venom.

#380 Minion

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:48 PM

View Postmalevolence, on 07 November 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

1-What weapons and weapons mods are recommended? I am using D/D and P/P

2-basic usage: cloak as often as possible, keeping Revealed up means you're maximising your damage, and stay behind the target while autoattacking. Also, use Hide in Shadows to lead into another backstab while near-downed]. What do you mean by keeping Revealed up means you're maximising your damage? I don't see any traits/skills, that says while in Revealed stance you do more damage. I am confused here.

3-What about Elite skills? what is recommended?

I'm lazy, so I can't be bothered changing the links each time I tamper with the build. The more up to date build is the one on the page, which I quite like since it can show how it's progressed in the recent months (nice excuse, eh?)

1.D/D nearly all the time. If you're struggling against a boss then switch to P/P, same in dungeons. The worse you are at dodging and staying off the AI radar, the more often you should swap to pistols.

2.Shadak has it, but to clarify: If Revealed is always up, it means you're Cloak and Daggering and Backstabbing at the maximum speed for maximum DPS. You can use CaD during Revealed also, it's a meaty attack, but no Backstab follow up.

3. I would never use Basilisk Venom in PvE... Depending on the occasion, if you need focused single-target damage, take EVAS (Thieves Guild); if you need to kill a large mob of critters, use Dagger Storm.

#381 Dulci Ti

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:03 PM

View PostMinion, on 07 November 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

I'm lazy, so I can't be bothered changing the links each time I tamper with the build. The more up to date build is the one on the page, which I quite like since it can show how it's progressed in the recent months (nice excuse, eh?)

Not sure I follow you here. When you say '... is the one on the page...' do you mean the list of skills and such that is found on page 1 of this thread? If not that, what then?

#382 Minion

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:39 PM

View PostDulci Ti, on 07 November 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Not sure I follow you here. When you say '... is the one on the page...' do you mean the list of skills and such that is found on page 1 of this thread? If not that, what then?

On the OP, not the links.

#383 Jayvenpup

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:43 AM

Been following this thread for awhile now and only now seriously started playing my thief and LOVING the D/D+P/P Condition Build. I'm up to level 44 or so and a way to go yet but it is a lot of fun :) Many thanks, Minion, for opening my mind up to having more fun out of Death Blossom :D I already loved it but now it is heaven (especially after playing a 'I can't die level 80 Guardian')


My recommendation to people (like myself originally) who went to those build links in the original post is to instead look into the first few replies where there is a build that has 15 points spent into it. I've also read further into this thread so far and found where it goes from there but if anything, maybe the OP could remove the build links, toss in instead the "This is what you should aim for" and them we fill in the blanks :)



#384 Minion

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:53 AM

View PostJayvenpup, on 08 November 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

maybe the OP could remove the build links, toss in instead the "This is what you should aim for" and them we fill in the blanks :)


A top idea, old chap!

#385 Speaks

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:34 PM

Hey Minion!

Been using your various builds since you made the first one, great work and thanks for sharing with us all :)! I dont get to play very much so they help me quite a lot!

I recently switched to your up to date crit/power build, the back stab one. However I feel like I'm dying much more in dungeons and having to wait for the 30 second heal. I also don't get a lot of 1v1 up time behind an enemy and i always seem to have nearly all my initiative too. Maybe I'm just playing this all wrong.

The previous build for your crit/power one was the signet build also using signet of malice. The healing more than made up for the lack of vit/toughness and i could DB or switched to SB whenever and just cluster bomb/dagger storm back to full health. However if i try to do that in the new build I run out of initiative pretty quickly.

Not sure what im doing wrong really, maybe its just not for me. Was the signet build you had before much less DPS than this?

Note: Level 80 with nearly full beserker gear. :)

#386 Dank Rafft

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:58 PM

Would the damage suffer by using Berserker's gear and using DB as primary attack?

#387 Minion

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:40 PM

View PostDank Rafft, on 09 November 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

Would the damage suffer by using Berserker's gear and using DB as primary attack?

/facepalm

Have a go at answering that yourself.

#388 Dank Rafft

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 06:07 PM

Why? DB does direct damage too and the bleed will be an addition to the crit damage. You also use Heartseeker in your rotation which will profit from the +crit damage.

#389 Kovares

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 06:29 PM

View PostDairuiner, on 30 October 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Re: Caltrops.. it effectively applies a 6s bleed, 12 times in 12 seconds, or 72 tics of bleed. 1 LDB applies 3 10s bleeds, or 30 tics of bleed.  So, 1 caltrops is worth approx 2.4 LDB in terms of bleeds (maybe more like 2LDB equivalent if you do add in the direct damage from LDB).  In addition it cripples, and has a 5-target AOE (vs 3-target of LDB.)  It's on a 30s recast (or 24s traited, vs 60s for RFI.) It's amazing for a condi build.

RFI gives you 6 ini, so 1.2 LDB's. Every 60 seconds.  So I'd say this choice comes down to whether you want to be offensive or defensive... caltrops for more damage, RFI for the stun break and extra evade via LDB.

Also, considering the points already invested in trickery, I'm really suprised that caltrops on dodge hasn't been mentioned... I believe it's only a small field that lasts 4 seconds, but it's still applying that 6s bleed 4 times (or 24 tics of bleed, almost a whole LDB!), costs no initiative and takes up no utility slots.

And honestly, why is haste even being mentioned for a PvE build? In any fight longer than 15 seconds all it gets you is maybe 2 extra autoattack chains (if you're using it to burn through ini faster then you just sputter out of ini faster, net dps gain = 0)... while in a condition build, your autoattack chain ain't anything to write home about.  Plus you could be using the lost energy to dodge more with caltrops-on-dodge for even more damage. Nix the haste.

Assassin's signet? You really need to decide if you're a condi or a power build. They don't play very well together.

PS. if you're still not sold on caltrops, try this... go to the heart of the mists, slap on a rampager's amulet, and plop a caltrops on a training dummy and just sit back and watch him melt. Dodge on him a few times with caltrops-on-dodge for extra fun. That's all passive, brutal, and initiative-free damage. Pretty effective way to up your DPS while waiting for that pesky initiative to come back, wouldn't you say?

This. So very much this, I just read through the first 3 pages and was about to write nearly the same. Caltrops is insanely strong if used correctly. For PvE use, try to get 2 runes each of centaur, afflicted and krait to maximize bleed duration. Make sure to trait caltrops on dodge as well as caltrop recharge and you can maintain bleed cap by yourself for a good while.
Currently, you can also use the "cnd steal trick" to safely apply caltrops where you need them: hit your caltrops button, and when the bar is almost full, steal for a shadow step towards the enemy, meaning you basically drop caltrops at their feet instantly.

Oh, did I mention caltrops proc your signet of malice too?

Edited by Kovares, 09 November 2012 - 06:30 PM.


#390 Dulci Ti

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:39 PM

I like the idea of working caltrops into the condi build. The question (for you theory crafters) is, what changes if any to Minion's condi build would be needed assuming that RFI was replaced with Caltrops?




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