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Minion's Invincible Thief Build

thief death blossom glass cannon spam

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#391 Dairuiner

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:59 PM

View PostDulci Ti, on 09 November 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

I like the idea of working caltrops into the condi build. The question (for you theory crafters) is, what changes if any to Minion's condi build would be needed assuming that RFI was replaced with Caltrops?

Beauty of caltrops is that even in a non-condition spec it does great bleed damage. But since his build already has beefed up condi stats, just dropping caltrops in will synergize perfectly without any changes to the build.  Only thing you might consider is the 20% reduction on tricks in trickery to make caltrops a 24s recast.

#392 Ryn22

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:59 PM

View PostKovares, on 09 November 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Currently, you can also use the "cnd steal trick"

Nice! I think I'll end up doing something lika a
30(V-X-XII)
0
0
20(III-X)
20(III-VIII)

Short bow and dagger/dagger with caltrops, roll for initative and spider venom.

Edited by Ryn22, 10 November 2012 - 12:02 AM.


#393 Minion

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 06:15 AM

View PostRyn22, on 09 November 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Nice! I think I'll end up doing something lika a
30(V-X-XII)
0
0
20(III-X)
20(III-VIII)

Short bow and dagger/dagger with caltrops, roll for initative and spider venom.

0 precision? wat

#394 ketttamiinaaa

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 08:19 PM

great great guide minion, help me alot and i love my thief, just 1 question, what runes and sigil to use on a crit built?? my armor is a mix of valkirie and berserker and d/d and sb weapons.

#395 Ryn22

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:49 PM

View PostMinion, on 10 November 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

0 precision? wat

Why do you need precision in a condition damage build?  I don't see it. Maybe I'm missing something then. Could you clarify it please?
Many thanks!

#396 Minion

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:49 PM

View PostRyn22, on 11 November 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Why do you need precision in a condition damage build?  I don't see it. Maybe I'm missing something then. Could you clarify it please?
Many thanks!

Nevermind, I was thinking about the crits build when replying to you; my bad.

#397 Zheo

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:04 PM

Seeing the numbers from all my Deathblossom bleeds fly above enemy's head makes my little thief heart happy.

#398 Araxes

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:49 AM

I am finally approaching level 80 and I was wondering how well these builds do in dungeons.  I really like the ConDmg build so far but would the Backstab build do a lot more damage than the ConDmg on single target? or is the difference minimal.

#399 Minion

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:38 PM

View PostAraxes, on 13 November 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

I am finally approaching level 80 and I was wondering how well these builds do in dungeons.  I really like the ConDmg build so far but would the Backstab build do a lot more damage than the ConDmg on single target? or is the difference minimal.

Noticeable higher. I almost exclusively use the crit build because it has a higher survivability in dungeons due to cloaking and I love melee. Shortbow sort of works better with a condition setup but meh.

#400 zugs

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:49 PM

I just started a Thief and I'm just about to reach L.20. I mainly only do WvWvW but I do go out into the PvE world to do the Skill Challenges. Since my thief is low level, should I go straight damage or condition build?

I do have a question about the suggested skill rotation at L.20. I can only issue 2x Death Blossoms before I run short. I either have to issue a Steal after 2x Death Blossoms or whack the player/mob with a sword before I can get the 3rd DB off. Am I just too low level or am I missing some trait or sigil?

Made L.20 and outfitted with all greens. I tried DeathBlossom on an invader and it was doing a whopping 75dmg while an invader thief was critting at 2000dmg. Even when an invader was knocked down, they were hitting me for more then double then what I can do.  (>_<)'''

Edited by zugs, 13 November 2012 - 09:54 PM.


#401 Araxes

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:33 PM

View PostMinion, on 13 November 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Noticeable higher. I almost exclusively use the crit build because it has a higher survivability in dungeons due to cloaking and I love melee. Shortbow sort of works better with a condition setup but meh.

Thanks for the reply. I will try out the Crit Build when I reach 80.  I noticed that you recommended some Valkyrie/Beryl equipment to go along with the Berserker/Ruby gear.  I definitely want to max out my CritDmg, I know that much.  But how much Crit% will I need to effectively use the Crit Build?  I don't want to use too many Valkyrie/Beryl pieces and not have enough Crit% for the build to work.  I wish I could go full Berserker but I know that I am not skilled enough for that yet, maybe in the future.  

PS: Sorry about all the questions.  You seem to know a lot about thieves and these are your builds so I figured you would be the best person to ask.

#402 NaPeK

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:09 AM

Im full valkyrie with superior runes of eagle but what about weapons and mods ?

#403 Rachmani

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:37 PM

A build that's kind of missing here, but fits the theme of condition D/D so well is 25/0/0/30/15 (or 30/0/0/30/10) with full carrion set. Using 2x double dagger, runes of the adventurer (defensive version, offensive version just uses condition duration stuff) and sigil of superior energy (or superior battle) + either force or bloodlust or corruption.

#404 sty0pa

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:15 AM

View PostRyn22, on 09 November 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Nice! I think I'll end up doing something lika a
30(V-X-XII)
0
0
20(III-X)
20(III-VIII)

Short bow and dagger/dagger with caltrops, roll for initative and spider venom.

Is it a crazy idea to consider instead of 30-0-0-20-20, to instead perhaps go 25-0-0-25-20?
You forego the "big top trait" abilities, but instead you'd get BOTH +10% damage when endurance is <full and +10% dmg when target has a condition.
The big top trait items (XI, XII) are fun but almost all conditional in ways meaning they'll only be applicable to a fraction of time in play...+20% damage is a big number, and (IMO) we're running with endurance below 90% almost all the time anyway.

#405 Dakan

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:49 PM

I was running the condition build until Orr. Then somehow my damage began lacking (subpar gear...) so I came up with something that leads to a bit more survivability.

0/20(II-VIII)/0/30(II-IX-X)/20(III-V)

Well that lets me run around Orr in lvl 60-70 gear. Obviously I should gear up to 80 now but I don't get why I should go for Rampager/Coral. Yes there's the precision part but in a condition build its not the main stat so why not go Carrion/Chrysocola or Rabid/Chrysocola?

Oh and I also don't get why to use P/P over P/D. With CnD and Sneak Attack DPS would be greater with P/D for a condition build or am I wrong?

Edited by Dakan, 17 November 2012 - 07:14 PM.


#406 Minion

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:35 PM

View PostDakan, on 17 November 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

I was running the condition build until Orr. Then somehow my damage began lacking (subpar gear...) so I came up with something that leads to a bit more survivability.

0/20(II-VIII)/0/30(II-IX-X)/20(III-V)

Well that lets me run around Orr in lvl 60-70 gear. Obviously I should gear up to 80 now but I don't get why I should go for Rampager/Coral. Yes there's the precision part but in a condition build its not the main stat so why not go Carrion/Chrysocola or Rabid/Chrysocola?

Oh and I also don't get why to use P/P over P/D. With CnD and Sneak Attack DPS would be greater with P/D for a condition build or am I wrong?

One thing you said didn't make sense to me; your damage was lacking so you went more defensive?

Anyway, why take two weaponsets with a dagger? Seems a bit pointless. You also lose the two most valuable defensive skills from the pistols; headshot and black powder, which it's generally what you use pistols for. Otherwise you just use the shortbow. So, although that set may output more DPS, it isn't practical. Also, 30 acrobatics is a bit extreme. 15 is the max I would ever have in there.

I need to update the Crit build on the OP in a bit, soon, when I can be bothered, etc. 20 shadow arts and free regen is a pretty cool guy.

#407 Dakan

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:05 PM

I couldn't do much more damage just from reallocating traits but I could improve survivability. (Lvl 60-70 gear is lvl 60-70 gear after all...) So it took equally long to kill things but was easier. I went 30 acrobatics because I could sustain my dps better with quick recovery and get more healing through assassin's reward. Signet of malice alone didn't cut it for me in Orr (maybe I'm lacking healing power)... Oh and opportunist alone didn't help me past a 3rd DB, again this was because of my gear (low crit. chance).

Thanks for the clarification on P/P.

But could you elaborate a bit on the gear choice for the condition build? As I stated above I don't get the the logic behind Rampager/Coral when going for Carrion/Chrysocola or Rabid/Chrysocola should net more dps and survivability.

#408 dereva

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:12 PM

Hy

I want to have your advice about this build. I have played the classic 25/30/0/15/0 for a while and i am looking for something with more survivability for high end PVE while keeping good damages.

This is the build :  http://www.guildhead...FvM0xax0caqVMas

I am pretty good with dodging but i feel the need to have a little bit more survivability.

Hope you will take the time to give me advices.

And sorry for the bad english it is not my mother language :)

Kiss

Dereva

Edited by dereva, 19 November 2012 - 06:52 PM.


#409 Stellarthief

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:38 PM

View PostMinion, on 13 November 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Shortbow sort of works better with a condition setup but meh.

From my experience I would disagree and say it works better on a crit/crit damage build.  In LA on practice dummies large explosion no crit is hitting for average 1380.  You can get significant upfront damage with sbow melee range spam (all 3 clusters hit) and you get the bleeds anyway, though less damage than on condition build.

#410 Dainjah

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:38 PM

Hey all, just wondering if anyone has time and would be possibly kind enough to list a full rundown on the traits used for the full crit damage build, as for some reason my pc wont show the full list on the Guildhead site or the GW2skills.net sites. Really enjoying the thief so far and would love to try this build out. Many thanks in advance people, I dont like asking for help as it takes up other peoples time but the communtiy for GW2 here is amazing :-) thanks again.

#411 Minion

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:20 PM

View Postdereva, on 19 November 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

I have played the classic 25/30/0/15/0 for a while and i am looking for something with more survivability for high end PVE while keeping good damages.

I am pretty good with dodging but i feel the need to have a little bit more survivability.

I presume this is for backstabbing since you went shadow arts. Mostly, the problem would have to be your heal. Use Hide in Shadows so you can 1. reset aggro, 2. regen and 3. massive heal. Signet of Malice is largely lacking when not spamming Cluster Bomb or Death Blossom, and you don't tend to need extreme healing when using those skills. I also think acrobatics becomes pointless after 15 points, though I don't use any. The extra guaranteed endurance is nice, but you can always hope for an AoE vigor in your party or use a stun-break, like Shadowstep or Roll for Initiative. I now use 20 shadow arts for the regen when cloaked, which also gives a nice party buff when using iHouse.


View PostStellarthief, on 19 November 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

From my experience I would disagree and say it works better on a crit/crit damage build.  In LA on practice dummies large explosion no crit is hitting for average 1380.  You can get significant upfront damage with sbow melee range spam (all 3 clusters hit) and you get the bleeds anyway, though less damage than on condition build.

Well, it's probably balanced out in the end, but it's always nice to see bigger DoT numbers jumping out of the enemies. It's definitely effective on either playstyle, but I try not to use it much. I've seen some thieves who just camp shortbow vs one foe... It makes me cry a little.

View PostDainjah, on 20 November 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

but the communtiy for GW2 here is amazing :-) thanks again.

Lies! All lies! Look them up in-game!

#412 slythiefz

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:24 AM

Hey minion... ive been using your condition build with 10 in deadly, 30 in crit, 30 in trickery with full rampager's. i havent bought my rings and other accessories yet but i feel like im not doing much in dungeons. any tips? should i switch to full carrion? because carrion does give the most condition damage and gives vitality to prevent me from doing down often. and also is it good to have 30 in crit if im using the condition damage build that abuses death blossom? or should i use those trait points for something different? i want to stick with d/d because i find abusing pistol whip extremely boring. or do you suggest i switch to high crit build for dungeons? because i do find the condition build very helpful in pve outside of dungeons (unless im focusing on one target such as champions)

Edited by slythiefz, 21 November 2012 - 01:55 AM.


#413 Stellarthief

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:20 AM

View PostMinion, on 20 November 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

Well, it's probably balanced out in the end, but it's always nice to see bigger DoT numbers jumping out of the enemies. It's definitely effective on either playstyle, but I try not to use it much. I've seen some thieves who just camp shortbow vs one foe... It makes me cry a little.

Dont be so quick to disregard SB vs. one foe.  The auto attack is wasted, although it does on average more damage than pistol auto attack with crit build (roughly 50% more damage I would say from top of my head numbers).  But even against 1 foe, a melee range cluster bomb shines.  300 healing per hit, low ini cost, near guaranteed to get back 1 ini per sec reducing ini cost even further.  Also gives you opportunity for quick get away against hard hitting mobs.  Some certain mobs I kite with SB even if only 1 mob due to needing extra dodges as they 1 shot me at 80 (usually when I am trying to solo some champs or vets).

There are better options for faster kills, but don't disregard it completely. It has its place ;)

#414 Minion

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:18 PM

View PostStellarthief, on 21 November 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

Dont be so quick to disregard SB vs. one foe.  The auto attack is wasted, although it does on average more damage than pistol auto attack with crit build (roughly 50% more damage I would say from top of my head numbers).  But even against 1 foe, a melee range cluster bomb shines.  300 healing per hit, low ini cost, near guaranteed to get back 1 ini per sec reducing ini cost even further.  Also gives you opportunity for quick get away against hard hitting mobs.  Some certain mobs I kite with SB even if only 1 mob due to needing extra dodges as they 1 shot me at 80 (usually when I am trying to solo some champs or vets).

There are better options for faster kills, but don't disregard it completely. It has its place ;)

I'd still say it's pointless vs bosses; if you're getting into melee range, you might aswell start backstabbing, which is the optimal damage option.in CoF (I think 76 in explorable) I hit 7,5k  backstabs near-consistently thanks to 100% crit chance. Just dodge faster and use your stun breaks before something bad happens. The faster they die, the less time you have to spend worrying about getting dead.

#415 Rachmani

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:53 AM

Well, I'd say the bosses you can't really melee are the ones where the SB evade comes handy anyway. So... I don't know about you but the more I play the more I'd rather have a SB as my second weapon set.
I mean... the real question is probably which bosses you can't melee anyway? Giganticus Lupius, at least in parts, but I vastly prefer SB there. By far. Any other? Maybe my memory is just bad :/

#416 Stellarthief

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:58 AM

View PostMinion, on 21 November 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

I'd still say it's pointless vs bosses; if you're getting into melee range, you might aswell start backstabbing, which is the optimal damage option.in CoF (I think 76 in explorable) I hit 7,5k  backstabs near-consistently thanks to 100% crit chance. Just dodge faster and use your stun breaks before something bad happens. The faster they die, the less time you have to spend worrying about getting dead.

I reference in my post soloing certain vets and champs, not bosses in dungeons. Soloing a champ mob with dagger spec is likely not possible as most of those champs or hidden champs (certain vet mobs) will 1 shot any thief if they land nearly any hit or without any other target you will be forced to tank them and even thief endurance can't go long enough to solo a champ by melee.  

Regardless if we want to talk about bosses in dungeons:  In FotM for example on the 1st boss dredge fractal, SB works quite nicely as he summons 2-3 adds every so often, 1 of which being an overly tough vet. The last boss for example, SB is also a good way to port around to reach the smelting pots while still doing some damage when he has the debuff on him. You can backstab that guy all you want if he doesnt have the debuff on and it does nothing.  Likewise his AE lasts longer than a dodge and the range is extreme, additionally he throws out 1 shotting mines after.  Staying out of range of the mines is a workable tactic in additon to the need to kite him to the smelting pots (found best done by ranger as thief loses aggro too easily) and getting someone up there quick is fastest way to get him dead (thief moves faster than any other class).

There are also several bosses where melee is unadvisable or you will be dead as they have stages where they AE either every so often or near continuously.  Regardless of how big your backstab spike damage is, or death blossom bleed, it does nothing when you can't hit the boss 40% or 60% of the time.  Or you spend too much time downed due to misttimed dodges, lag when you need to dodge, etc.

Likewise there are several monsters in dungeons that will turn on any player meleeing them very quickly and either 1 shot them (any hit will 1 shot the thief or close to it from these mobs) or drop a lot of ground target AE around the mob. This makes meleeing impossible.  Don't forget, all mobs are not supposed to act the same.  Some focus on ranged targets, some focus on whoever is meleeing them, some have random AEs with bugged animations, some have a continual PBAE..

And of course, lets not forget the power of low cost blast finisher spam from thief cluster bomb.  Can lead to significant healing, chill, AE might, weakness duration, etc.

I could go on, about some bosses and mobs having so many HP that doing 13k or 15k or 10k doesnt make you kill it any much faster and imo doesnt outweigh the risk of being 1 shotted, but lets sum up my point:

All weapons are situational, and everything has its place. Straight out killing is not always better as straight out damage and relying on dodge is risky.  Controlling a situation, staying out of death's reach while still doing damage is imo most advisable path.  Thief SB is one way to continually do some damage and keep alive, kite mobs or transfer aggro.  Regardless of 1 mob or 200.  All dependant also on your team make-up in a dungeon or who is also around in open world combat. Just writing off a weapon or a skill as useless or not (as) effective without looking at the whole situation, combo fields, finishers, team make-up is relatively short sighted imo.  This game isn't in general rock paper scissors/dps beats all/you always have class X with you (unless ofc you do).

#417 Rachmani

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:09 PM

Rabsovich might not be the best example, as you can & should just melee him and his adds. To be fair though, D/D specifically lacks PBAoE so it ain't perfect there either.

#418 Majigor

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:00 PM

View PostMinion, on 28 August 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:


High powered crits

>Dual daggers
>Hide In Shadows
>Shadow Refuge (AKA "iHouse")
>Signet of Shadows/Assassin's Signet
>Roll for Initiative/Shadow Step
>20 (VI, IX)/30 (III, X, XII)/20(V, III)
>berserker/Valkyrie armour and Ruby/Beryl jewels
[basic usage: cloak as often as possible, maintaining Revealed means you're maximising your damage, and stay behind the target while autoattacking. Also, use Hide in Shadows to lead into another backstab while near-downed]

or   condition damage
>Dual daggers
>Signet of Malice
>Roll for Initiative
>Signet of Shadows
>Assassin's Signet
>10 (VI)/30 (II, VIII, XII)/0/0/30(V, VII, XII)
>Rampager/Carrion armour/coral jewel

~Minion

On the second build you included the trait lines that you left on 0, which is good because it's clearer which trait lines you are speccing in. In the first one though you didn't. I assume this means you've gone Deadly arts, critical strikes and shadow arts, but not sure. Would you mind editing that first line just to clarify this for readers?

Many thanks

#419 Minion

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 10:55 PM

View PostMajigor, on 23 November 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

On the second build you included the trait lines that you left on 0, which is good because it's clearer which trait lines you are speccing in. In the first one though you didn't. I assume this means you've gone Deadly arts, critical strikes and shadow arts, but not sure. Would you mind editing that first line just to clarify this for readers?

Many thanks

Your assumption is correct, smart one.

#420 Snakeshadow

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:13 AM

Thanks a lot for the builds Minion, I am using the crit one with D/D and P/P and it is blowing my mind.

Edited by Snakeshadow, 24 November 2012 - 09:45 AM.





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