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Minion's Invincible Thief Build

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#61 blitzcreek13

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 12:07 AM

so ive decided to go with this build after testing 3 or 4. I am lvl 38, once i hit 40 ill be re-speccing. I will only have 30 available points so i was thinking 15 trickery and 15 critical strikes. Then use my next wo to get both of those to 20 and then use my last 30 lvls to max out deadly. Is this the most efficient way?

#62 Minion

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 12:35 AM

View Postblitzcreek13, on 04 September 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

so ive decided to go with this build after testing 3 or 4. I am lvl 38, once i hit 40 ill be re-speccing. I will only have 30 available points so i was thinking 15 trickery and 15 critical strikes. Then use my next wo to get both of those to 20 and then use my last 30 lvls to max out deadly. Is this the most efficient way?

Go for 20 trickery first then fill the rest of Critical when you can. Klepto and the +3 initiative are important.

Edited by Minion, 04 September 2012 - 12:36 AM.


#63 Quasarnova

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 11:45 AM

View PostMinion, on 04 September 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

Go for 20 trickery first then fill the rest of Critical when you can. Klepto and the +3 initiative are important.

Hi Minion, i have a question i'm level 23 and in the guide at begin of this topic you have write that put 10 Critical and 5 in trickery, i must follow this or put all to 20 trickery before and then critial and power? Thz a lot.
bye.

#64 malikah

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 01:35 PM

Just go for trickery in order to get preparedness (+3 initiative) and ur other 2 selcted traits u enable...
Minion mentioned thrill and Thef, but I like uncatchable + theft, but its more a matter of taste

Edited by malikah, 04 September 2012 - 01:37 PM.


#65 Minion

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 01:55 PM

View Postmalikah, on 04 September 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Just go for trickery in order to get preparedness (+3 initiative) and ur other 2 selcted traits u enable...
Minion mentioned thrill and Thef, but I like uncatchable + theft, but its more a matter of taste

Just did an explorable dungeon; CM... Pretty crazy stuff, but I took Caltrops over Assassin's Signet because the mass bleed and cripple is just great in the tight choke points, while dagger storm+Signet of Malice makes you basically invulnerable for 8 seconds. Uncatchable is very weak compared to the skill and it's only useful in a few fights in dungeons.

And yeah, I was tired when I wrote that... 15 trickery then crits.

#66 beuha

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 02:23 PM

View PostKyomi, on 31 August 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

How is that true? I get that you have fallen in love with LDB Spam and dodge with RFI but I find it bad that you sell it as the only valuable build while we thieves have a lot of alternatives to choose from.
...
Specially strongly specced into venoms S/P is a killer build and definitely not any weaker or less powerful then a D/D LDB build.

If you don't mind sharing, i would be really intrested by the build you use.
I've been using a S/P build recently and found it to give a lot of flexibility, utility and a really decent dps. In my opinion, the control it gives on mob make it superior to D/D when playing in group and PW does not seems like hiting for less than any dagger attack to me.

#67 Razaera

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 02:52 PM

View Postbeuha, on 04 September 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

If you don't mind sharing, i would be really intrested by the build you use.
I've been using a S/P build recently and found it to give a lot of flexibility, utility and a really decent dps. In my opinion, the control it gives on mob make it superior to D/D when playing in group and PW does not seems like hiting for less than any dagger attack to me.
Seconded, I'd be really interested in this too; I'm running S/P myself but I'm not sure what traits/utilities I should bring along with it to the table...

#68 Kyomi

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 03:29 PM

I have two builds I am switching between: a more group support/venom focused I us is this.
It works great for high end as well (I used both builds without any issues in lvl 80 dungeons and wvw - but you need to be careful in melee. Mug hits for around 2k average and can hit as high as 2.5k). (I know this is the PvE section but it works brilliantly in dungeons too :))

My other favorite S/P setup is this one. In terms of utilities: I have them pretty much all unlocked and swap them out according to situation. In Dungeons I feel that Shadow refuge helps a lot with in combat rezzing and Thief guild and Ambush add really nice overall damage if you have to be careful staying in melee range.

Sorry for derailing your thread Minion :)

Edited by Kyomi, 04 September 2012 - 03:33 PM.


#69 dpaine88

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 04:55 PM

I really love this post and have been following/using its advice since I rerolled a Thief.

Minion, would you care to edit your OP and include some of the other very useful tidbits of info? such as the stats we should be going for and updated information about which traits to take first for those of us leveling up?

Thanks for the great info so far.

#70 Northstar

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 05:30 PM

I like this D/D build.. I am running a similar setup but I will try this build out tonight. Thanks OP.

#71 Jaytron

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 07:33 PM

Thanks OP! I'll give this a try tonight. I've leveled up to 52 as S/P and it's getting a little boring.

View PostKyomi, on 04 September 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

I have two builds I am switching between: a more group support/venom focused I us is this.
It works great for high end as well (I used both builds without any issues in lvl 80 dungeons and wvw - but you need to be careful in melee. Mug hits for around 2k average and can hit as high as 2.5k). (I know this is the PvE section but it works brilliantly in dungeons too :))

My other favorite S/P setup is this one. In terms of utilities: I have them pretty much all unlocked and swap them out according to situation. In Dungeons I feel that Shadow refuge helps a lot with in combat rezzing and Thief guild and Ambush add really nice overall damage if you have to be careful staying in melee range.

Sorry for derailing your thread Minion :)

Great info, maybe I'll try these changes to my S/P build (Hey we're on the same server :P)

#72 Minion

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:02 AM

View Postdpaine88, on 04 September 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

I really love this post and have been following/using its advice since I rerolled a Thief.

Minion, would you care to edit your OP and include some of the other very useful tidbits of info? such as the stats we should be going for and updated information about which traits to take first for those of us leveling up?

Thanks for the great info so far.

Let me know if there's anything else you need to know. I'm tired so probably missed some info out/sounded incoherent.


View PostKyomi, on 04 September 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:



Sorry for derailing your thread Minion :)

Not a problem. Spread the wisdom :)

Edited by Minion, 05 September 2012 - 01:40 AM.


#73 malikah

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 06:42 AM

View PostMinion, on 04 September 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

... I took Caltrops over Assassin's Signet because the mass bleed and cripple is just great in the tight choke points, while dagger storm+Signet of Malice makes you basically invulnerable for 8 seconds.
Uncatchable is very weak compared to the skill and it's only useful in a few fights in dungeons.

Iam only at lv15 but will regard it - thx for the advise ^^
You have linked the lvl15 specc in your guide, not the lvl 80 one :P

Have you tried it also in pve, I mean if u used caltrops over Assasins Signet, or do u think its to much bleed and the trait bonus ist far sup than the bleed effect?

Edited by malikah, 05 September 2012 - 09:25 AM.


#74 Snikt

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 10:20 AM

The Utilities are meant to be swapped around, it's why it's so easy. Use Caltrops when you feel it's necessary.

Edited by Snikt, 05 September 2012 - 10:24 AM.


#75 Minion

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 10:41 AM

Assassin's Signet is the only "free" slot, but not much else is good for it. Caltrops is only useful in choke-point locations when kiting will be necessary. I don't like using it, though, because of the 2s cast... I'm an impatient thief; hence this build.

#76 Stramonia

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 11:35 AM

Dunno, if undestood well but seems to me that this is ur rotation:

- Death Blossom x2
- Steal
- Death Blossom x2 (or x3 if we have enough initiative)
- Steal Skill
- Assassin's Signet
- Hearthseeker

Signet of Malice will be use when we are out of HP, i guess.
And what about the third signet, Signet of Shadows ?

Moreover our stats priority should be condition and precision for weapon and armory ? That's means that we have to put runes with that stas on unused slot ?

I've just started using ur advice, with my main lv39

Thank you for ur help

#77 coreyz

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 03:34 PM

Yeah, what stats are the priority for this build?

#78 Sixpax

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 03:44 PM

Good guide.  A couple of suggestions though:
  • I wouldn't use the term "mob" to refer to a group of foes.  That term is often used in MMO slang to refer to a single foe (counterintuitive, I know).
  • You might want to link a 2nd build that includes all of the traits referred to in the guide (such as Signet Use).
  • I would also mention the trait Opportunist in the guide, especially since you'll automatically have that if you put 20 in Critical Strikes for the Signet Use trait.


#79 emiliorf

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 03:49 PM

Hello Minion,

Ever tried a version of your build but that focus more on survival and using stealth and other abilities to generate initiative instead of signets? I was thinking of the following:

http://gw2skills.net...69gsjNsdPuqWrKA

It pretty much gives up a lot of the increased damage to get more on-demand initiative generation and survival.

- With Infusion of Shadow as a trait, the skills Hide in Shadows, Shadow Refuge and Blinding powder each give 2 initiative, at the same time they put us in stealth for a backstab, which is always good for an ini free ability, and also remove the mob atention from us (most of the time, sometimes it fails).

- Steal gives 3 initiative, weapon swap another 3 (that's why two sets of two daggers), heal gives 4 and roll for initiative 6. With all acounted, there is a lot of "on demand" initiative generation. Chaining all together it is 22 (6 from stealth and 16 from here). Considering the start of 13, this puts 35 initiative, and considering that we take some time to spend it all, we can account at least another 10 of initiative regenerated, meaning that we can chain about 9 LDB.

- The survivability should be pretty high. The trait "Last Refuge" is a last minute breath, then there is a good supply of endurance through "bountifull theft" and "feline grace" and with all this burn of initiative "Assassin's reward" should bring some health back. This is not accounting to all the evades of LDB and to the stealth.

Anyways, This is a build i'll work towards in the long run, considering I'm still lvl 20, it'll be a long run indeed

Edited by emiliorf, 05 September 2012 - 04:03 PM.


#80 Minion

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 04:50 PM

View PostStramonia, on 05 September 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Dunno, if undestood well but seems to me that this is ur rotation:

- Death Blossom x2
- Steal
- Death Blossom x2 (or x3 if we have enough initiative)
- Steal Skill
- Assassin's Signet
- Hearthseeker

Signet of Malice will be use when we are out of HP, i guess.
And what about the third signet, Signet of Shadows ?

Moreover our stats priority should be condition and precision for weapon and armory ? That's means that we have to put runes with that stas on unused slot ?

I've just started using ur advice, with my main lv39

Thank you for ur help
It's actually changed since I wrote that; you're right,  I really need to layer that wall of text better. Will use a more accessible arrangement in a moment.

View PostSixpax, on 05 September 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Good guide.  A couple of suggestions though:
  • I wouldn't use the term "mob" to refer to a group of foes.  That term is often used in MMO slang to refer to a single foe (counterintuitive, I know).

  • You might want to link a 2nd build that includes all of the traits referred to in the guide (such as Signet Use).

  • I would also mention the trait Opportunist in the guide, especially since you'll automatically have that if you put 20 in Critical Strikes for the Signet Use trait.

Missed out that minor, thanks, I'll throw it in next time I update. I also thought I did have a level 80 build linked in there, but I guess I mis-pasta'd.

On the term "mob" being single foe... Well, I played Guild Wars for seven years and a mob has always been defined as one group of foes following the same aggro bubble. This makes sense. You can lure several mobs, which may comprise of 5-6 foes each, but simply calling one enemy a "mob" sounds silly. I just won't do it! If you truly think it necessary, I can add a disclaimer "must have played gw to understand this guide" :>



View Postemiliorf, on 05 September 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Hello Minion,

Ever tried a version of your build but that focus more on survival and using stealth and other abilities to generate initiative instead of signets? I was thinking of the following:

http://gw2skills.net...69gsjNsdPuqWrKA

It pretty much gives up a lot of the increased damage to get more on-demand initiative generation and survival.

- With Infusion of Shadow as a trait, the skills Hide in Shadows, Shadow Refuge and Blinding powder each give 2 initiative, at the same time they put us in stealth for a backstab, which is always good for an ini free ability, and also remove the mob atention from us (most of the time, sometimes it fails).

- Steal gives 3 initiative, weapon swap another 3 (that's why two sets of two daggers), heal gives 4 and roll for initiative 6. With all acounted, there is a lot of "on demand" initiative generation. Chaining all together it is 22 (6 from stealth and 16 from here). Considering the start of 13, this puts 35 initiative, and considering that we take some time to spend it all, we can account at least another 10 of initiative regenerated, meaning that we can chain about 9 LDB.

- The survivability should be pretty high. The trait "Last Refuge" is a last minute breath, then there is a good supply of endurance through "bountifull theft" and "feline grace" and with all this burn of initiative "Assassin's reward" should bring some health back. This is not accounting to all the evades of LDB and to the stealth.

Anyways, This is a build i'll work towards in the long run, considering I'm still lvl 20, it'll be a long run indeed

I quite like acrobatics for PvP; all that dodging helps a lot, and spam-rolling before a fight to build Might is nice, but that does tie you into using Signet of Agility. Not sure what the healing is like on Assassin's Reward, but I prefer using Signet of Malice, since I shouldn't be taking huge bursts of damage, Hide in Shadows is useless to me. It also has a cast time, which will always lower DPS, and the focus of the build is to be evasive whilst doing damage so as to avoid waiting too long.

Let's do a quick check of how much initiative is in my build:

15i max

+3i every 40 seconds from Steal
+1i per critical hit (armour dependant; my crit rate is 47% right now) This has a high chance of triggering with almost every cast of DB, since any hit can crit.
+2-6i every signet use, of which you have three on the bar; only two ever need using
+6i from Roll for Initiative.

So, that's around 16-20i if you adjust for your crit chance. The difference also, I don't have to have as much initiative as you because I will kill so much faster. You're not casting DB as much to take advantage of the extra initiative.


tl;dr; if you wanted to use this playstyle in PvP, this build is close to workable.

Edited by Minion, 05 September 2012 - 05:41 PM.


#81 Sixpax

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 05:46 PM

View PostMinion, on 05 September 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

On the term "mob" being single foe... Well, I played Guild Wars for seven years and a mob has always been defined as one group of foes following the same aggro bubble. This makes sense. You can lure several mobs, which may comprise of 5-6 foes each, but simply calling one enemy a "mob" sounds silly. I just won't do it! If you truly think it necessary, I can add a disclaimer "must have played gw to understand this guide" :>

I agree that calling it a "mob" does makes sense logically, and I'm definitely not suggesting you start referring to a single foe as a "mob", but people who played other MMO's might be confused when they read the word.  I was just making the suggestion so anyone can read and understand this guide regardless of previous MMO experience.  Totally up to you of course.

#82 Minion

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 05:56 PM

View PostSixpax, on 05 September 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

I agree that calling it a "mob" does makes sense logically, and I'm definitely not suggesting you start referring to a single foe as a "mob", but people who played other MMO's might be confused when they read the word.  I was just making the suggestion so anyone can read and understand this guide regardless of previous MMO experience.  Totally up to you of course.

As you say, it's not logical or at all intuitive to call a single foe a mob, unless you've played MMOs. If someone comes here with no previous MMO experience, they'd be better off ;)

#83 Jaytron

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 09:44 PM

I've used this build 52->60 for the past day or two. I love it so far. Only time I really have trouble is if I'm in a tight area and I run out of initiative. Other than that, the build seems to be pretty awesome.

#84 Inervia

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 10:49 PM

Mob, in MMOs actually is short for mobile. It has been used way before even GW1's time as referring to a single target. Back in 78 it was coined as a mobile enemy, a mob, in the game MUD1 and then in the first MMOs to come out, such as Everquest, it was widely used as the term.

So, with all due respect, even if you have been playing GW1 for a long time and used it that way, 90 percent of people do not use it that way and haven't for almost 30 years.

Edited by Inervia, 05 September 2012 - 10:49 PM.


#85 Minion

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 11:12 PM

View PostInervia, on 05 September 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

So, with all due respect, even if you have been playing GW1 for a long time and used it that way, 90 percent of people do not use it that way and haven't for almost 30 years.

Thanks for the history lesson. I didn't know that's where the term originated from. However, 30 years is a long time, and this is the sequel to Guild Wars. It wasn't me personally on that game who called a mob a group, because it was common terminology because it was a team-based game. Enemies didn't run around independently.

Anyway, this derail is over.

#86 Chroniccough

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 11:13 PM

nope minion its still 10 critical strikes and 5 tricks

#87 Defora

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:26 AM

Tested this with crafted +condition + power gear. Works really nicely. I even made "rotation" picture:
Posted Image

#88 Enkal

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:00 AM

View PostMinion, on 05 September 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:

Thanks for the history lesson. I didn't know that's where the term originated from. However, 30 years is a long time, and this is the sequel to Guild Wars. It wasn't me personally on that game who called a mob a group, because it was common terminology because it was a team-based game. Enemies didn't run around independently.

Anyway, this derail is over.

Well, in English a mob is a group of people (more or less).

In computer games, as Inervia said, it means a single enemy that can move around. In the really early MUD's the NPC's were static and could not switch room.

If you write a guide I would highly suggest that you use mob for single enemy and "group of mobs" or just "mobs" if you mean a "mob of mobs" ;) . It is an uphill battle to try to change that nomenclature.

On topic: great guide, been using something similar now since lvl 25ish (am 47 now iirc). I cant stand S/P or SB so my 2nd set is P/P for single target goodness. :)

Might try D/P with poison/weakness tonight from a recent post on these forums though. :)

Edited by Enkal, 06 September 2012 - 09:03 AM.


#89 Minion

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:02 AM

View PostDefora, on 06 September 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

Tested this with crafted +condition + power gear. Works really nicely. I even made "rotation" picture:
Posted Image

This is the best contribution anyone has made yet ;) I'm going to use my Steal skill to take the image and copypasta!

#90 malikah

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:06 AM

Iam missing the 2i on Signet use form the trait "Signed Use" on ur pic :zip:

Edited by malikah, 06 September 2012 - 11:06 AM.





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