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GW = skills , GW2 = mash

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#1 deteknician

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:30 PM

I'm about 34 hours into GW2.  Only playing one character, a Sylvari Ranger I think she's level 28.  I hope some of you that have gotten further in the game will tell me I'm wrong here.


I'm having fun playing but I don't think the skill system is as good or as deep as the original GW and that was the only reason I loved GW and dropped WOW.
It seems skills don't really matter, they all pretty much do some damage and you just mash whichever one is available.  There's no energy (on my Ranger at least) to make you think as what you really need to cast first.  In GW if you took a random 8 people put them in a dungeon they'd be dead within 15 seconds.  But because the game was based on skill and strategy rather than gear, everyone had a fair chance of figuring it out, but most people just wanna mash 1234 1234 and most people failed.  Every decent gamer did research, what kind of mobs you have in dungeon/area X,  is there a lot of degen? interrupts? enchantment removal?  is mostly casters or melee?  Then you make a build that deals with those issue.  If there's enemies that remove enchantments then don't bring enchantments, or better yet, bring skills that punish removing enchantments.  If there's a lot of crazy melee you bring skills that slow down attacks, or something like:

Spitefull Spirit " EliteHex Spell. For 8...18...20 seconds, whenever targetfoeattacks or uses a skill, Spiteful Spirit deals 5...29...35shadow damage to that foe and all adjacentallies of that foe."  Does GW2 even have hexes, enchantments, removal, shouts, attunements? or is it all just "you do x damage" "you do y damage" "you do x damage faster".

In GW some elite dungeons would kill a party of 8, again in 15 seconds, but some people figured out a set of 8 skills that would let them solo farm those dungeons.  They figured out how, with the same exact stats and gear as everyone else,  they could farm an area that would kill a random party of 8.  This would NEVER happen in WOW and I assume GW2.  I really miss this part and hope GW2 gets a little deeper later on.  I don't want to be able to mash all the skills on my bar and do fine.  Right now the game is too easy for me but more importantly it does not require much thought.  

Another hint that this game is more mindless.  Can I see what skills an enemy is casting?  or does it just not matter anymore.  Is my Interrupting Shot just blind guess now or can I get a chance to react and interrupt that Meteor Shower.

Edited by Khalija, 28 August 2012 - 05:01 PM.
don't mess with font styles


#2 LumenLazrin

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:32 PM

its not supposed to work like tht - they said time and time again thats why they scaled back the skills

its a different game

#3 Treble

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:33 PM

GW's skill system was terrible.

Glad it's gone.

#4 Micalovits

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:35 PM

View Postdeteknician, on 28 August 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

Spitefull Spirit " EliteHex Spell. For 8...18...20 seconds, whenever targetfoeattacks or uses a skill, Spiteful Spirit deals 5...29...35shadow damage to that foe and all adjacentallies of that foe."  Does GW2 even have hexes, enchantments, removal, shouts, attunements? or is it all just "you do x damage" "you do y damage" "you do x damage faster".
Im calling troll for this part, or just someone who never cared to read anything.

#5 Leiloni

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:37 PM

I'm more interested in the combat itself requiring thought and me using the skills available to me in the right way. There are various types of conditions, boons, etc., the trait system, different weapon sets, class specific mechanics like attunements. The game does have some depth but it's also a lot more about how you act and react in combat. You can't just make an amazing build and win no matter what you do in combat and vice versa. I personally don't want the build to be too complicated and require too much thought. The idea of switching builds for every new dungeon sounds like a horrible and unneccesarily complicated idea to me. I just want to have fun. And this game allows me to do that while providing enough of a challenge to stay interesting.

#6 Specialz

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:38 PM

View PostMicalovits, on 28 August 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

Im calling troll for this part, or just someone who never cared to read anything.
Seconded!

Guild wars 2 can be a button masher, but you have to be logical in your button masher. As a matter of fact you are suppose to button mash your first 2 skills usually if the weapon speed allows for it and use your other skills tactically. I button mash my shortbow skill 1 but I do it when have quickness.

#7 Darkobra

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:39 PM

You say that GW 1 = skills, but did you not see PVP and PVE after the second year of the game coming out? Everyone was using the same wiki build and the same 8 skills on their class anyway. So it really was mashing either way! I have seen no difference between the two!

#8 Sleepdeprivation

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:39 PM

34 hours in, playing prehaps the easiest profession to face roll with ( i'm also playing ranger btw) and presumably your talking about pve content?

yes out in the world fighting pve mobs you can spam 1 to 5 and probably live, at least at low lvls

have you tied the dungeons? story mode or explorable mode? try spaming skills on cd in there or in pvp and see how you get on

just because you can spam cd's doesn't mean you should, read you spell discriptions most if not all except the number 1 attack have secondary effects that are situational.

by using  them on cd instaed of at the right time your  not getting the most out of them

and picking a skill set that works in a very particular situation is not the same thing as skill in playing the game, reacting, observing and so on

Edit: why would you need an enamy cast bar when you can look at the enamy and see a big spell or attack animation happening? does that not require more skill than watching the ui? is it not more engaging? as to what spell /attack learn some animations? or guess?  not like in real fights your opponent tells you his next attack will be x is it.  mindless? or are you just uspest becuase now you have to watch rather than getting a prompt telling you something is about to happen?

Edited by Sleepdeprivation, 28 August 2012 - 04:48 PM.


#9 rukia

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:40 PM

View PostDarkobra, on 28 August 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

You say that GW 1 = skills, but did you not see PVP and PVE after the second year of the game coming out? Everyone was using the same wiki build and the same 8 skills on their class anyway. So it really was mashing either way! I have seen no difference between the two!

Exactly. 9000 skills or not, there will always be a meta. GW2 skill system is much better. /thread

Also OP you're probably playing a bow ranger which anything ranged right now is just faceroll.

Edited by rukia, 28 August 2012 - 04:41 PM.


#10 EasymodeX

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:41 PM

I was at first terrified of your keen onslaught of logic and prose, but I did a dodge roll and it was all okay.

#11 Zun

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:41 PM

The only thing that makes GW2 a sequel to GW is the storyline.

I completely agree with you about the skills choice being really shallow. I guess it's a price you now have to pay if you want to sell something on the MMO market : you need to think about casual gamers.

Oh and by the way, this afternoon we got our a** kicked by the 2nd boss of the lvl 50 dungeon in a matter of secs.

Edited by Zun, 28 August 2012 - 04:43 PM.


#12 Fleshgrinder

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:42 PM

Nearly any system can allow for button mashing.

But the person not mashing will always beat the person mashing.

Example: Eddie Gordo from Tekken.

He is the "mash friendly" character in Tekken, you can do okay if you just randomly hit buttons... but woe on you if you meet someone who knows how to play Eddie right. No character in the game can embarrass a human being like a well played Eddie can, despite that he's known as the "noob" character.

So yeah, you can mash... you'll lose to any player knowing what he/she is doing.

#13 Nicator

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:43 PM

GW based on skill? Are you serious? I can only think of interrupts and such as falling into this category, and you even got a huge loading bar on the top of the screen telling you when to use them.

#14 Luj1

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:43 PM

View PostTreble, on 28 August 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

GW's skill system was terrible.

Not necesserally, its just a different idea. In Gw1 yes some skills were useless but I loved the deckbuilding system with around 1300 skills. In Gw2 they wanted to go with a quality over quantity aproach with skills (and theyve said so multiple times), and possibly switch the focus to traiting. Personally I can agree with the OP to some degree, they definitely overdid it with some skills/profesions. Button mashing and simplest skill description I dont like. I definitely think they should add more skills for example a few more chains to choose from for every weapon etc.

#15 Vayra86

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:43 PM

Play an Elementalist.

Nuff said.

#16 Princess Fatora

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:44 PM

Sure, it's button mashy.

And you will die horribly playing like this if you face anything relevant or interesting.

For example, jumping puzzle/mini dungeon bosses. Some of them will kill you in 15 seconds. Some can do it in 3, if you don't know what you're doing.

Quote

Does GW2 even have hexes, enchantments, removal, shouts, attunements?


Hexes: Hexes are conditions now. Conditions come in different types.
Removal: ...is that a joke? Yes, it does. And you will die without it in hard places.
Shouts: Warrior and Guardian have them...
Attunements: Elementalist says hi.

Is this a joke post? ^^;

#17 HouseOfMirrors

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:46 PM

View Postdeteknician, on 28 August 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

Every decent gamer did research, what kind of mobs you have in dungeon/area X,  is there a lot of degen? interrupts? enchantment removal?  is mostly casters or melee?  Then you make a build that deals with those issue.  If there's enemies that remove enchantments then don't bring enchantments, or better yet, bring skills that punish removing enchantments.  If there's a lot of crazy melee you bring skills that slow down attacks, or something like:

Spitefull Spirit " EliteHex Spell. For 8...18...20 seconds, whenever targetfoeattacks or uses a skill, Spiteful Spirit deals 5...29...35shadow damage to that foe and all adjacentallies of that foe."  Does GW2 even have hexes, enchantments, removal, shouts, attunements? or is it all just "you do x damage" "you do y damage" "you do x damage faster".

Some of us got sick of "group looking for monk", "group looking for warrior" etc., and the feeling of actually having to be grateful to a party for accepting you if you were not "useful" to the group's chosen build for playing through a dungeon/level. "Not an interrupt ranger? Then you CAN'T PLAY. Or you can play but please play on your own."

Now that sucked.

Not to say that GW2 doesn't require skill. I just think it's more balanced in favour of people who want to have fun as well.

Edited by HouseOfMirrors, 28 August 2012 - 04:47 PM.


#18 Nicator

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:46 PM

View PostPrincess Fatora, on 28 August 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

Sure, it's button mashy.

And you will die horribly playing like this if you face anything relevant or interesting.

For example, jumping puzzle/mini dungeon bosses. Some of them will kill you in 15 seconds. Some can do it in 3, if you don't know what you're doing.

[/color][/font]

Hexes: Hexes are conditions now. Conditions come in different types.
Removal: ...is that a joke? Yes, it does. And you will die without it in hard places.
Shouts: Warrior and Guardian have them...
Attunements: Elementalist says hi.

Is this a joke post? ^^;
Well, to be fair, hexes are a whole different thing from conditions. They were pretty interesting and it is quite a shame that they were removed for GW2.

#19 Eldaran

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:49 PM

View PostVayra86, on 28 August 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Play an Elementalist.

Nuff said.

I was going to say the same thing. Play Dagger/Focus, or Dagger/Dagger and tell me how easy it is to faceroll. Especially in PvP. Staff I have found to be the safest and ding ding ding it's a ranged weapon. There are enough types of weapons for each profession to warrant you finding a style that works for you. Try something more melee and see how that goes.

#20 deteknician

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:50 PM

I'm not trolling. I haven't read much about GW2.  I've been playing the original since the start and I still play once in a while.
I'm just going by the 40 or so skills that I've seen in game.  They all seem pretty basic.  Yes I'm talking about PVE.  

What's fun/challange when you don't have to think what you're casting?  It's fun for you to press 1234 as soon as they become available?  Because for me it's not enough, I want to use my brain and think about what I'm casting and why, I want to make decisions!

I haven't tried any dungeons.  I'm doing story mode, already killed Mazdak.  

"try spamming skillson cd" - what's cd?

I do love how signets work.  Passive skill until you use it.  Really cool way to have 2 things.

Again, I'm not saying this is how GW2 is. I'm saying so far, that's what it looks like to me.  I'd love to hear how it's still somewhat a thinking game, because if you don't have to think much then it's not a game, then it's just an interactive movie.

by skills I mean something like this:  you're a warrior, you have Spiteful Spirit on you, you STOP attacking.

Edited by deteknician, 28 August 2012 - 05:00 PM.


#21 ~PolarisNova~

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:51 PM

Anyone who is randomly button mashing is clearly doing it wrong. The skills make sense, you've just got to learn to use them in a smart way.

#22 Sleepdeprivation

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:52 PM

View PostZun, on 28 August 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

The only thing that makes GW2 a sequel to GW is the storyline.

I completely agree with you about the skills choice being really shallow. I guess it's a price you now have to pay if you want to sell something on the MMO market : you need to think about casual gamers.

Oh and by the way, this afternoon we got our a** kicked by the 2nd boss of the lvl 50 dungeon in a matter of secs.

yeah not sure i get this, look at all the skill sets available to any proffession, now look at all the traits that can change how these skills work. then consider the added effects of runes/sigals, and how this skills might interact with another players, or two players, or three.....

not sure if even the devs have been able to work out all the possible combinations or uses yet so might be a bit early to call it shallow?

#23 Tallenn

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:52 PM

View PostTreble, on 28 August 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

GW's skill system was terrible.

Glad it's gone.

That's just it.. it's not gone. Guild Wars servers are still up and running if that's they way you prefer to play. Personally, I much prefer the dynamic combat of Guild Wars 2.

Good thing both are available!

#24 Cracken

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:53 PM

Well obviously early game is going to be easy. The hard part of PvE starts in the dungeons and in higher level zones (especially Orr). The game might be easy now, but it's still fun for me. And let's face it, it's not facerolling either.

#25 Princess Fatora

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:54 PM

Quote

Well, to be fair, hexes are a whole different thing from conditions.

Well...they're just conditions with a fancy name and a mechanic that needs a different removal for them. Essentially, each hex was its own micro condition.

Which just lead to 99% of them being useless.

#26 deteknician

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:54 PM

View PostLuj1, on 28 August 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

loved the deckbuilding system with around 1300 skills

Yes, this is what made it fun.  It's like Magic.  You have 8 skills, in a group of 8 you have 64 skills.  It should matter what they are, if you take time and plan out your build you should be rewarded.  Right now I feel like it doesn't matter which skills you have on your bar, there's no point in making choices, whatever you have it's fine.

#27 Vayra86

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:54 PM

View Postdeteknician, on 28 August 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

I'm not trolling. I haven't read much about GW2.  I've been playing the original since the start and I still play once in a while.
I'm just going by the 40 or so skills that I've seen in game.  They all seem pretty basic.  Yes I'm talking about PVE.  

What's fun/challange when you don't have to think what you're casting?  It's fun for you to press 1234 as soon as they become available?  Because for me it's not enough, I want to use my brain and think about what I'm casting and why, I want to make decisions!

I haven't tried any dungeons.  I'm doing story mode, already killed Mazdak.  

"try spamming skillson cd" - what's cd?

I do love how signets work.  Passive skill until you use it.  Really cool way to have 2 things.

Again, I'm not saying this is how GW2 is. I'm saying so far, that's what it looks like to me.  I'd love to hear how it's still somewhat a thinking game, because if you don't have to think much then it's not a game, then it's just an interactive movie.

Honestly after such a post, do you really expect a good answer?

Do your homework first

#28 Treble

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:55 PM

View PostLuj1, on 28 August 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Not necesserally, its just a different idea. In Gw1 yes some skills were useless but I loved the deckbuilding system with around 1300 skills. In Gw2 they wanted to go with a quality over quantity aproach with skills (and theyve said so multiple times), and possibly switch the focus to traiting. Personally I can agree with the OP to some degree, they definitely overdid it with some skills/profesions. Button mashing and simplest skill description I dont like. I definitely think they should add more skills for example a few more chains to choose from for every weapon etc.
I would almost never consider quantity over quality a good thing in game design. Certainly not for abilities.

And GW2 mashing is only done by unskilled players. I've seen plenty of players mashing their abilities, including escape abilities for the little extra damage they do, only to be 1-shot because they were out of dodge charges and their escape ability was on cooldown. And this is only in PVE, which is pretty damn easy.

I'd also love to see anyone in PVP, who didn't carefully pick and choose their weapons and traits for the particular PVP they were playing, who picked utilities that didn't mesh well with those weapons, who mashed their buttons without giving it a thought, didn't choose gear that complements their build, and with the reaction time of a cardboard box.

Edited by Treble, 28 August 2012 - 04:57 PM.


#29 IDarko

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:57 PM

PvE will always be like this. But i do not understand certain skill design choices. Thieves are about being evasive and agile. Yet, we have many skills that make us a tank. Take pistol whip for example. We use it, automatically dodge and deal loads of AoE damage (no player skill req.). I pistol whipped myself to level 61 so far and it's almost getting boring. Sure, some enemies still require a lot of dodging but with skills like this, mashing keys is actually viable.

Having that said, PvP isn't like this so i'm not too concerned.

Edited by IDarko, 28 August 2012 - 04:57 PM.


#30 Angel Holyspear

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:59 PM

I played mostly mesmer and so far its nothing like button-mashing for me. I need to think before I attack, i need to move a lot and try to make my enemy attack clones and figure the best timing to shatter them (and chose a shatter skill appropriately).





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