116 replies to this topic

[ohyo]

Fleshgrinder, on 28 August 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Nearly any system can allow for button mashing.

But the person not mashing will always beat the person mashing.

Example: Eddie Gordo from Tekken.

He is the "mash friendly" character in Tekken, you can do okay if you just randomly hit buttons... but woe on you if you meet someone who knows how to play Eddie right. No character in the game can embarrass a human being like a well played Eddie can, despite that he's known as the "noob" character.

So yeah, you can mash... you'll lose to any player knowing what he/she is doing.

This is a great reply. Great analogy. But to allay your fears OP, the game's difficulty does increase and I hear spam-fests aren't as effective as skilled play.

[Sleepdeprivation]

deteknician, on 28 August 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

I'm not trolling. I haven't read much about GW2.  I've been playing the original since the start and I still play once in a while.
I'm just going by the 40 or so skills that I've seen in game.  They all seem pretty basic.  Yes I'm talking about PVE.  

What's fun/challange when you don't have to think what you're casting?  It's fun for you to press 1234 as soon as they become available?  Because for me it's not enough, I want to use my brain and think about what I'm casting and why, I want to make decisions!

I haven't tried any dungeons.  I'm doing story mode, already killed Mazdak.  

"try spamming skillson cd" - what's cd?

I do love how signets work.  Passive skill until you use it.  Really cool way to have 2 things.

Again, I'm not saying this is how GW2 is. I'm saying so far, that's what it looks like to me.  I'd love to hear how it's still somewhat a thinking game, because if you don't have to think much then it's not a game, then it's just an interactive movie.

skills on cd.....cool down...you've never seen that abbreviation before?

and again..... if no ones said spamming 1-4 is fun or challenging, only that at low lvl you can survive doing it (especially as a bow ranger which i'm still guessing you are) everyones saying thats not how YOU should be playing...if YOU are playing like that and finding the game shallow or "mindless" its YOUR fault not the games

managing cool downs is a resource, using an interupt, a condition, a boon or even dodging ARE things to think about

almost every skill /ability in the game is designed to be used situationally, as the content progresses the timing becomes more and more important

Edited by Sleepdeprivation, 28 August 2012 - 05:15 PM.

[Kylazin]

Zun, on 28 August 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

The only thing that makes GW2 a sequel to GW is the storyline.

I completely agree with you about the skills choice being really shallow. I guess it's a price you now have to pay if you want to sell something on the MMO market : you need to think lazy entitled gamers.

Oh and by the way, this afternoon we got our a** kicked by the 2nd boss of the lvl 50 dungeon in a matter of secs.

FTFY

[Brizna]

I agree and disagree with OP. Certainly part of what made a player good in GW1 is gone, but frankly most people simply went to PvXwiki and ran with whatever build was highest ranked, of course that wasn't the case of everybody and I certainly enjoyed tweaking builds and experimenting which I will dearly miss in GW2; on the other hand GW2 might be more hectic, mobile and require more keystrokes per second, but that's another skill on itself, randomly pushing buttons is certainly not the best way to "mash" buttons another thing is wether someone in particular enjoys more one skill or the other.

I also want to compalin about quite a few of those who have disagreed with OP who have being less than respectfull of someone else's opinion, if you don't like somethign someone says respectfully either counter-argument politely or just shut up.

[egoshade]

While it's easy to face roll with a ranger for things your level you can see the skill involved if you equip a 2h and try to solo something 5+ levels higher.
This would be hard for any class but just made for a fun challenge and highlights exactly what op is talking about.
It takes skill and timing if you're fighting anything of any consequence.

[Sleepdeprivation]

egoshade, on 28 August 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

While it's easy to face roll with a ranger for things your level you can see the skill involved if you equip a 2h and try to solo something 5+ levels higher.
This would be hard for any class but just made for a fun challenge and highlights exactly what op is talking about.
It takes skill and timing if you're fighting anything of any consequence.

i might be wrong but i think thats the oppisite of what the op is saying?

op asked if it gets any more difficult /engaging/tactical as it seemed to be a spam fest, everyone else is saying it really isn't , at least not when facing harder content

or did you mean "face rolling on ranger is easy, but op try something tougher and you'll see...." ?

[Phoebe Ascension]

Have you heard about combo's? Weapon switch? conditions? Condition STACKING (impossible gw1)? Traits? Dodge? Stuns breakers!? Much more varied/specialized Runes?

guess not. Sure I love Signet of Spirits, and sure i miss it. But does that make gw2 a bad game? By far not.

[deteknician]

Sleepdeprivation, on 28 August 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

managing cool downs is a resource, using an interupt, a condition, a boon or even dodging ARE things to think about

Yes, this is the stuff I want.  How do you interrupt in this game?  Can you tell what spell an enemy is casting?  Are you just blindly guessing with the interrupt?

I also got builds from pvxwiki but using them is how I learned how good some of them can be.  Then I started tweaking them, then I could make good builds myself.  That was the best part of GW for me, and I'm missing it now.  So it's killing a little of the GW2 hype that I've been on.  This is why I'm coming across so psychotic.

[Vlak]

rukia, on 28 August 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

Exactly. 9000 skills or not, there will always be a meta. GW2 skill system is much better. /thread

Also OP you're probably playing a bow ranger which anything ranged right now is just faceroll.

I'm almost positive it was over 9000.

[Itharius]

An enemy cast bar would make the combat less visceral and more mechanical, like WoW PvP. Personally, I like relying on animations and profession knowledge for interrupts because it forces you to actually look up at the enemy player instead of staring at your UI.

As for spamming abilities, that goes away once you learn how to play your character. As a Guardian, I have a very diverse set of skills that do very different things. With sword/torch, not only does zealot's defense do a lot of damage, it does it at 600 range and also blocks incoming projectiles. Zealot's flame has a timing component to maximize damage, and my 5 ability applies burning and can also cleanse allies. These secondary uses are very important for PvP and harder PvE content.

[Treble]

deteknician, on 28 August 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

Yes, this is the stuff I want.  How do you interrupt in this game?  Can you tell what spell an enemy is casting?  Are you just blindly guessing with the interrupt?

There are visual cues to go by, such as casting animations and casting circles. It's easy to interrupt those. Tough to interrupt instant spells.

I play a Ranger. I don't think it's faceroll by any means (not in PVP). But it's possible to dominate someone if you use your abilities properly and have the utilities to complement them.

I use Longbow and Greatsword. I can literally keep someone from hitting me throughout the duration of a fight in PVP (at least not with any huge spells/abilities) using a combination of abilities, utilities, and dodging.

Edited by Treble, 28 August 2012 - 05:41 PM.

[Lazmira]

I think OP needs to also realize that the ranger is a lot more spammy for skills, i've noticed this quite a bit. However I've always thought about what I shot out before I pressed it, and it has rewarded me greatly.

[deteknician]

in PVP yes, in PVE you can't go by animations.  Any decent battles I was in I could hardly see the enemy hit box much less the animations. Boss battles? I can't see jack squat!

"I guess it's a price you now have to pay if you want to sell something on the MMO market : you need to think about casual gamers."

I think this is the main problem combined with the fact that I don't wanna be a casual gamer. It's happening in all games, especially fighting games. I'm married and don't have time for many games but the two games I play (SF4AE2012 and GW2) I'm very serious about and I want them to be deep.

[Mr. Mango]

Both = skill.

[Treble]

deteknician, on 28 August 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

in PVP yes, in PVE you can't go by animations.  Any decent battles I was in I could hardly see the enemy hit box much less the animations. Boss battles? I can't see jack squat!

Really?

I mentioned this in another thread. Throughout Ascalon Catacombs, I didn't get hit by any bosses except for the lovers (due to my entire group being dead), because it was really easy to judge when to dodge based solely on the boss animations.

[deteknician]

It's ok if it's one mob, but if there's a boss or an event going on, with about 10 people attacking, I can't see much, definitely not enough to know when to interrupt.

[Treble]

deteknician, on 28 August 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

It's ok if it's one mob, but if there's a boss or an event going on, with about 10 people attacking, I can't see much, definitely not enough to know when to interrupt.

Ah yeah, that's tough.

To be fair, it's tough to see cues in any game with more than 5 people attacking the same target and spamming particle effects.

Really, the only reason WoW players can time things with 10-40 people attacking a mob is because of an addon telling them when to do it. Otherwise, they'd probably be in worse shape than we're in.

Edited by Treble, 28 August 2012 - 05:55 PM.

[Kentaro]

I'm not sure not sure if you've done any dungeon or explore mode at that, but I assure you, one cannot mindless press skills unless your goal is to rack up a repair bill.

As for interrupts. You eventually learn the skill animation for an ability in order to time an interrupt. Besides honestly how is knowing the spell your enemy is casting so you can easily counter it on point more skill compared to learning the animation to that spell? Sure, once you learn the animation the outcome is the same, but at least it's not handed to you on a silver platter.

My only annoyance with the game so far is the mass zerg on each dynamic event because it removes (at least to me) all possible enjoyment from said event. Due to the fact that everyone just spams it and it scales to the stats of a fort and stupidly dies. However, it's just an annoyance of mine not really a problem besides I'm pressing on 60+ so I'm ahead of the crowd (at least on my server) so all it right with the game.

[paradiselight]

As a GW1 player who cleared all the end game dungeons on HM without cons using just heroes (except for foundry and UW, but it could be done), I have to say this out loud:

It's too early to judge at this point

Seriously what level are you now? Think back to GW1 when you're at that level (scaled to a max level of 20). Did your build matter that much at that point? I went through prophecies using just henchies back in the days.

And keep in mind that the game does get progressively harder as we level up. I have already heard things about story mode dungeon being challenging if you don't bring the right weapons/traits/utilities.

Personally, I have experienced situations where your weapons/utilities do matter. As an example, yesterday, I was doing the jumping puzzle at the southern part of Gendarran fields where you fight moas at the end. While in the cave, the pirate gunner ranged attacks hit ridiculously hard and I died the first time as a guardian after accidentally aggroing 3 mobs with 2 ranged gunners. The next attempt I  brought my shield and used wall of reflection and it was far easier.

[Red Sonya]

At OP, I think you've lost touch with what an ADVENTURE and RPG are suppose to be. Just from reading your jargon all I see from you is STATS and ABILITIES and how you can MATHEMATICALLY control the game. I'm glad ANET has gone back to OLD SCHOOL and made it an ADVENTURE again. You shouldn't be able to see WHAT SKILL an NPC or PLAYER is casting or using, you should only be able to see the animations that he/she/it is using something. Whether you decide to interupt it is a ROLEPLAYING experience not an EXACT KNOWLEDGE of what is happening.

Plus you are certainly WRONG about random groups in ELITE DUNGEONS getting wiped in 15 seconds (that elitist attitude I see out of so many that use websites for how they play). I've played ELITE DUNGEONS in GW1 with just heroes as well and done well, cleared Underworld and several others. I NEVER rushed to any site or RESEARCHED anything before I went into them. Why? Because I prefer to ADVENTURE in RPG games not GAME them.

One of the biggest problems with online MMO's today is the ability to rush to some website and get all the CHEATS for beating the game or a certain area. If they could eliminate these or make it bannable to use them these games would be a lot better off. Ever since Game Genie the mindset has been to CHEAT ones way through the game not actually learn it and adventure through it. Sad, so sad.

[Delusional]

The people who say this game is nothing but button mashing are the same people who stand there and 1v1 mobs with barely any health left over at the end, and then point their nose down at the game and say it's EZ mode.
Let's see if you can button mash your way to victory on multiple mobs on your same level.

I can only speak for Mesmer seeing as it's the only class I've played (I like to master classes, sorry), but all of my success is accredited to correctly using stuns, dazes, and confusions and nicely timed dodges and circle kiting. Without it, I'd surely die.

You think it's button mashing, I think it's pure skill. But it seems we're also playing in two entirely different ways with two entirely different classes.

Edited by Delusional, 28 August 2012 - 06:19 PM.

[Samhayn]

deteknician, on 28 August 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

Yes, this is what made it fun.  It's like Magic.  You have 8 skills, in a group of 8 you have 64 skills.  It should matter what they are, if you take time and plan out your build you should be rewarded.  Right now I feel like it doesn't matter which skills you have on your bar, there's no point in making choices, whatever you have it's fine.

If you play nothing but open world pve and run around avoiding harder fights you can get away with bad set ups and button mashing. But I don't see how, I have 2 condition removal skills that I need to use wisely and I have found the higher level I get the more important dodge is becoming. Then again I also like taking on 2 or more mobs at once and have no problem giving mini bosses a go also.

Either way GW 1 is still up in running so if you like it so much more then gw2 you always had a place to go.

[deteknician]

Red Sonya, on 28 August 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

You shouldn't be able to see WHAT SKILL an NPC or PLAYER is casting or using, you should only be able to see the animations that he/she/it is using something.

Plus you are certainly WRONG about random groups in ELITE DUNGEONS getting wiped in 15 seconds (that elitist attitude I see out of so many that use websites for how they play). I've played ELITE DUNGEONS in GW1 with just heroes as well and done well, cleared Underworld and several others. I NEVER rushed to any site or RESEARCHED anything before I went into them. Why? Because I prefer to ADVENTURE in RPG games not GAME them.

a. - This is your opinion, not a fact.  Just as in my opinion you should see what they're casting.
b. - I'm not wrong.  I did plenty of dungeons with PUGs that didn't know what they were doing and did die in less than a minute.  Are there some random groups that didn't? sure.  But I've seen tons that died over and over again, I was on them.  Also I'm sure you did Slaver's Exile on HM with random PUGs without preparing, sure.
More caps please because what I believe the problem with todays MMOs is "people" like you who can't discuss a topic on a forum without sounding condescending.


@paradiselight:  This is why i'm posting, I wanted to get opinions of other players, and of players that are further in the game.  Yeah, I did half of Prophecies without paying much attention to my build.  Somewhere around the Crystal Desert I started to think a bit more.   I also did most HM dungeons and vanquishes with Heroes but it took a lot of work and trial and error, tweaking builds, seeing what works what doesn't.  That's the part I enjoyed the most and miss.  I haven't seen this in GW2, and I'm really hoping to.

Edited by Chalky, 29 August 2012 - 09:55 AM.
toned down

[Ahlen]

Don't know about that. Playing a 2 kit engineer I felt like I was playing a piano I was flying through keys so quickly.

Not mashing, but perfectly timing each press. If I mashed, half my abilities wouldn't come out. (Switch to elixir, use 5, take off kit). Hit that too fast and all you do is put on the kit and take it off without ever firing.

[Dove]

Here's how GW1 was by the end for me:

-Pick 7 heroes. Run complementing meta builds.
-Pick a meta build for myself.
-In difficult areas, flag heroes back. Longbow pull. Retreat behind heroes.
-Once aggro is established, switch to daggers and spam Jagged -> Fox -> Blossom plus SY on recharge.
-Collect loot.

And believe me, there's a definite degree of skill even then. Mostly, it's preparation and positioning.

GW2 behaves differently. Positioning I still find to be mighty important... melee is powerful but brittle, so knowing when and how to strike hard and when to stay at distance/kite is very key. Preparation comes from knowing the feel and playstyle of your character/class. Both involve skill.

It's different, to be sure, but it's no more or less of a button-mash or any less requiring of skill than GW1 was. Just in a different way. Because it's a different game.

[Sarosna]

Funny. I ran a Dagger Ranger in GW1 PvE and all I did was smash through my rotation.

My GW2 Thief shadowsteps, dodges, switches weapons, applies poisons to her weapons, cripples foes with Disabling Shot, poisons mob swarms and then switches to Pistol/Dagger to stealth up and do some stealth attacks for damage. In PvP I would constantly hit wrong buttons or skills in the wrong order cos' things got so hectic.

You are aware that certain skills, like Point Blank Shot, have some very hilarious and useful twists to them? Like knockback for instance.

[ScoutMATH]

in guild wars 2, i encounter enemies that suddenly turn invisible and then i just notice that im being damaged. also i encounter enemies that teleport at a longer range.

Those are not in guild wars 1.

[stefanplc]

The way I see it, and I'll describe it from a PvP point of view first, is that each profession for each weapon set has 2 or 3 abilities that hit much harder like +1/3 extra damage if not more. Some of those abilities also open chain attacks that hurt pretty bad through stuns or knockdowns and so forth. From a PvP point of view, good players will be able to avoid way more important attacks and make a big difference that way, where regular people will just spam dodging to avoid any sort of damage.

From a PvE point of view you need to try Ascalon Catacombs first. I thought in Explorable mode which is the easy one that it was pretty difficult. I can't even imagine doing it on a harder mode. While regular PvE is pretty easy, the personal story, the surroundings are pretty breathtaking.

WvWvW is all about big groups or guilds being properly organized and that's where the skill level for both players and guilds is the highest which I guess makes sense since it is after all GUILD Wars.

Hope this helps!

[Nox_Aeterna]

Haha really?

Pick an elementalist and go mashing ...

15 secs? Nah thats to much , i give you around 5 alive.

I used to think this game was easy ... then i took an elemantalist for a main...

[Chip_H]

The OP is getting delicious complexity confused with good gameplay, they are not the same thing.

Yes, GW1 had a bazillion skills. However, most of those skills were trash "commons", which, in turn, provided the endgame progression as you unlocked more and more of the desirable skills for your classes. And, sure, you could spend untold amounts of time outside the game learning about different builds and teams and then going out and finding the right gear, runes, insignias, etc., and then tweaking that skill bar until it fit your play style perfectly (still remember how devastated I was when I realized that all my build templates were on a dead hard drive, that they weren't server side and I hadn't backed them up, DOH!).

The problem was that once you had that skill bar and/or hero team, the gameplay itself was kind of mindless (fun, but, yeah, mindless ). Pick target, activate skill, watch graphical vomit of particle effects, switch targets and/or activate different skills as needed. Facing? Who cared. Range? Who cared. Dodging/Avoidance? Who cared? Everything happened automatically and the monks took care of the unavoidable incoming damage.

So, now, yeah, I've traded a Magic: The Gathering sized lot of skills for a substantially smaller selection. But, I've gained traits that interact with that smaller set. I've gained actually needing to be *there* in my fights where my location, facing, etc. all matter. It's different, but after 5 years of GW1, aren't you ready for something different?

Never mind how daunting that level of complexity was for many players (new and returning - every try to re-familiarize yourself with the bewildering array of skills as well as whatever mechanics changes were patched after a months long break from GW1?)