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GW = skills , GW2 = mash

skills

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#91 Duveth

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 07:26 AM

pve is a button mashing zergfest with lower amount of skills in ur bar than other mmorpgs, op downed state, op resurrect system, all of this made the game too easy.

Edited by Duveth, 29 August 2012 - 07:36 AM.


#92 Shasow

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 07:29 AM

View PostDuveth, on 29 August 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

pve is a button mashing zergfest
if you think it's like that, then you're doing it terribley wrong.

#93 Metalripper

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 07:29 AM

View PostRyan Longstride, on 29 August 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

Completely agree with OP. The skill system in GW1 was amazing and WAY ahead of it's time and honestly i don't think anything like it will ever be made again. It's extremely sad to have to say goodbye to this ridiculously amazing gameplay feature just because other features of the game didn't satisfy it's creators. With all this said i still enjoy playing gw2.

Even if you did copy a meta build from a wiki, there was no guarantee that the person would be using it correctly or effectively. But I completely agree.

To the OP, try playing a thief. I feel that thief embodies the essence of GW, their skills require use of a resource pool, which is vastly more dependant on a players aptitude than skills based on cooldowns. Not only that, almost all of the thief's weapon skills feel useful, with very little redundancy. The thief also has a modest versatility to it, being able to AOE blind and frequently grant poisons and regeneration to allies.

Try it, I liked it.

EDIT: The Asura has some pretty sexy racial abilites. Radiation field is pretty sweet, and the Power Suit and Series 7 golem summon are pretty useful as well.

Edited by Metalripper, 29 August 2012 - 07:33 AM.


#94 cataphract

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 07:35 AM

After about 30 hours into the game, I think I heard the best statement(from chatting with others) to describe GW2.

"I hated gw1, I think gw2 is a mix between WoW and SWOTR".

In conclusion, it is a different game, those who enjoyed GW1's combat system just got shafted by ANet.

Those who says "Oh, in GW1, everyone were using the same cookie cutter builds, hence no skill involved".

While, yes GW1 PvP was filled with pvxwiki builds, but keep this in mind, GW1 skills are a lot more punishing (with some exceptions) for misuse. One must not only know exactly how their own skills work, but also how the opponents too. Further, dual use skills (skills that Do damage and assist allies) do not exist in GW1, thus all skills require intent to use.

After around 20 PvP games in GW2, I can safely say, Strategic Positioning > Personal Skill, and that coordination only goes as far as Capturing together, fighting together, and resurrecting.

Precise combinations, timing spikes, proper utilization of skill is neither necessary nor found.

I only played as the Guardian in PvP, and all I can say is, regardless of whether I use skills 1-10, or only 1+heal, it made minimal difference. Especially when 1 out damages the majority of other skills, while the "Utility" skills don't last long enough, nor heal enough to make a difference.

As for PvE, I played the Guardian, Warrior, Elementalist, and Mesmer. I have to say, Mesmer is far out classed by the other 3, while the elementalist is entirely useless with the Staff, while only being useful with anything else as long as there is a tank. Warriors and Guardians absolutely destroys all monsters both at a faster pace, and can tank more.

Edited by cataphract, 29 August 2012 - 07:39 AM.


#95 Winter3333

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 07:43 AM

View PostDuveth, on 29 August 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

pve is a button mashing zergfest

It is, you mash buttons and everything dies... than I came by a champion mob, alone... one poor soul had just run by me in opposite direction... I have prepared, tactics was set in my mind, I've pulled my spirit weapons up and battle begun... it soon ended, several times... some other guy came by and try to help me, battle was raging but result was same... I have become that other guy that ran in opposite direction and I hate those guys... I wowed myself to come back tomorrow!

Edited by Winter3333, 29 August 2012 - 07:44 AM.


#96 XPhiler

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 08:02 AM

View PostBrizna, on 28 August 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

I agree and disagree with OP. Certainly part of what made a player good in GW1 is gone, but frankly most people simply went to PvXwiki and ran with whatever build was highest ranked, of course that wasn't the case of everybody and I certainly enjoyed tweaking builds and experimenting which I will dearly miss in GW2; on the other hand GW2 might be more hectic, mobile and require more keystrokes per second, but that's another skill on itself, randomly pushing buttons is certainly not the best way to "mash" buttons another thing is wether someone in particular enjoys more one skill or the other.

I also want to compalin about quite a few of those who have disagreed with OP who have being less than respectfull of someone else's opinion, if you don't like somethign someone says respectfully either counter-argument politely or just shut up.

I dont feel they were gone, In my opinion they got shifted around. In GW1 you'd think about what you were going to face and create a build accordingly.. so I am going to face groups of mobs so I need nukes. They ressurect so I need to interuppt and prevent that, they cast a lot so i can have conditions that take advantage of that etc... then go in battle and basical execute a skill rotation that maximizes the effectiveness of that build. In more hard encounters you might need to time an interrupt.

In guild wars 2 the preperation is less true. You just need to choose a weapon set that essentially is designed at a role or even roles.

Daggers - Necro -> single target Melee DPS / a little support role
Staff - Necro -> Ranged Multi target DPS / Crowd Control and support

The bulk of the strategy though is done during combat rather then before and thats where things got shifted at least in my opinion. Maybe its because I mostly played an ele in gw1 but most of the time I really didnt need to think my strategy while fighting it was more just ensuring good energy management. In GW2 its different I always have to think what my situation is and how I can best approach it.

Am I alone or with other people around me? I have a lot of conditions on me? switch to daggers and use Deathly Swarm to transfer those to my enemies. Enemy is focused on other players not me and dishing out conditions, no problem swtich to staff and use Putrid Mark that will transfer conditions from my allies to enemies. Friendly is about to die? if I am using a staff cast mark of blood (gives regen to friendly) switch to dagger and use dark pact to immobilize enemy allowing friendly to run.

basically in GW2 Strategy is in the execution where as in GW1 strategy was mainly in the setup

Of course for the first levels or if there are a lot of players you can just trigger every skill as it comes out of cool down and succeed! But that doesnt mean the complexity and depth isnt there! after all same thing with GW1, for most of the PVE content especially early on in the game picking up skills you like the name of rather then targeted at your coming situation would still mean success!

#97 Red Sonya

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 08:14 AM

View PostVsin, on 29 August 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

I think it's because you're a Ranger.  I'm also a Ranger, and with the exception of the Sword you basically mash everything on cooldown because, well, there's no reason to hold onto this stuff.

Longbow?  2 is now a damage boost at every range except 1000+, 3 is vulnerability, 4 constantly when kiting, 5 is AoE only.  Shortbow?  2 every cooldown, 4 every cooldown for bleeds, and 3 every cooldown if you're kiting.  Torch?  Burn and Burn.  Greatsword?  12 mash, 3 to close in and don't touch 45 unless something bad happens.  Speargun?  1234 mash or you lose damage.

However, I've made it less boring by using weapon swapping.  Stuff like opening with Sword/Torch, throwing down Torch 5, then backing off and pelting with a Shortbow for tons of condition damage.

I've been using weapon swaping since day 1 level 7 I think it were. Because while your first weapon is on cooldown you can swap and use 5 more skills not on cooldown. My first weapon (sword) is a jumping to, burning, blinding, whirling dervish setup and then my 2nd weapon (mace) is my healing/regen/protection/defensive setup and comes in great in a pinch when I am fighting several mobs. My utility skills are burning skills and retaliation and my offhands for sword are torch which has more burning skills and I use the focus with the mace for more defensive/healing skills.

To say this game has no great skill involved is just silly as I see the same skill and knowledge requirements that I saw in GW1 just in a different way of playing it. It may appear to be dumbed down but even Anet said GW2 would be because they couldn't keep up with skill balances of GW1 that was the reason for going straight into GW2. They've simplified the mechanics but the mastery of it is still there.

I haven't gotten to dungeons yet but I'm glad to read it will require many if not ALL of your weapon skills and knowledge thereof. I think there won't be much boredom there and when the game gets in full swing of new content and dynamic events. I also believe if you RUSH to max level you are missing a lot and NOT taking the TIME to learn your skills and their combination values.

#98 Leriel

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 08:19 AM

View Postdeteknician, on 28 August 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

Spoiler
At first those were my impressions too, but it becomes more clear with time.

Yes, in gw1 skills mattered ALOT. I don't care if there was meta, i don't care if everyone was using the same build, i don't care about everyone going to pvx. The skills mattered and if you went with bad skillset, you would die quickly.

This is not the case in gw2: you can take any skills and you will get by. The difference starts when you for example aggro 3+ monsters at one time - this is where skill actually matters, this is when not just every weapon set will do the job and it becomes increasingly clears you progress through the game.

#99 XPhiler

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 09:20 AM

View PostLeriel, on 29 August 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

At first those were my impressions too, but it becomes more clear with time.

Yes, in gw1 skills mattered ALOT. I don't care if there was meta, i don't care if everyone was using the same build, i don't care about everyone going to pvx. The skills mattered and if you went with bad skillset, you would die quickly.

This is not the case in gw2: you can take any skills and you will get by. The difference starts when you for example aggro 3+ monsters at one time - this is where skill actually matters, this is when not just every weapon set will do the job and it becomes increasingly clears you progress through the game.

I think you're missunderstand what this is about because you're mixing skill as in power with skill as in player needs to know what they're doing.

Skills as in power are equally inportant in both games. GW2 requires less skill as in people knowing what they're doing, to a degree when picking up which skills as in powers to use because like you correctly say in GW2 any a weapon is essentially a bundle of skills thats balanced in such a way to be useful in any situation. There is a different between being adequat to being optimal however. Just like GW1 if you are trying to play a certain way (say mass dps) but pick a weapon that mostly has condition transfers you're going to do really bad. You might still survive easy encounters because like you said every weapon is a self sustaining skill bundle, they all can all do damage thus they all can kill stuff. But then when you're faced with a real challenge, higher level mobs, veteran mobs, PVP or dungeons if you have a weapon that does mainly mass transfer of conditions, have your traits set to increase your presition and your runes that increase your vitality you're most likely going to die or at least not do as good as someone who chooses that same weapon, compliments it with another weapon that does dps and causes conditions, sets his traits to increase condition damange and condition duration and employees runes that do the same.

hence while a player with little player skill can still mindlessly go through some of the game. someone who knows what they're doing will do better in both gw1 and gw2. some people and I am not sure at this point what your opinion on the matter is, claim that in gw2 someone who doesnt know what they're doing will do just as good as someone who knows what they're doing cause there is no depth to the combat system.

#100 Leriel

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 10:27 AM

View PostXPhiler, on 29 August 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Spoiler
Yes, i can see how 'skill' was an unfortunate wording. I meant 'skillset' in all my post.

#101 thatguy

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 10:59 AM

"This game is too easy" - Try what the hint said in tutorial, go try a higher level area.  BOOM, problem fixed.

Also post level 30 if you're spamming your skills you're going to start dying.

#102 Lord_Demosthene

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 11:05 AM

Here's my answer to OP: qualify with your guild mates to a yearly tournament, and then we can talk. Otherwise, thread is premature, unless it specifically addresses PvE gameplay only. Even then, it's probably still premature.

#103 deteknician

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 02:56 PM

Good stuff everyone, thanks.

#104 mithie

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:13 AM

Quote

basically in GW2 Strategy is in the execution where as in GW1 strategy was mainly in the setup

But that's not true. At all.

In GW 1 setup was a large part of it, sure, but at the end of the day, the outcome is determined by your exectuion. Yes, there were wiki builds, but the same teams consistently came out on top because they were better than the rest at piloting it, despite having the same skills on their skill bars.

Take Magic the Gathering, for example; the current meta is filled with the exact same "net decks" which contain pretty much the same set of cards; but in a match between an average player and an execellent player, the excellent player will come out on top every time, because he's a better pilot.

This is also true for GW 2, to a certain extent, except due to the fact that skills come in sets depending on your weapon, there are less options for the strategic part of the planning.

Quote

Also post level 30 if you're spamming your skills you're going to start dying.

Depends on your class. It's perfectly fine for a longbow ranger to spam or a sword warrior to mash buttons. There are simply classes in this game whose only resource is to expend their cds as fast as possible to get the damage out.

We're not talking about mindless mashing here, mind you, we're talking about cycling through your skills in a robotic manner which can also be done by a bot.

Edited by mithie, 30 August 2012 - 02:17 AM.


#105 MajorKong

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:26 AM

View PostVayra86, on 28 August 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Play an Elementalist.

Nuff said.
I am level 60 Elementalist and I've used the same 3 skills pretty much all the time, and I essentially just use them when they come off cooldown. GW2 is a great game, however it's obviously a button masher for the majority of PvE content. Sure I'll dodge and kite too, but I am still mashing my fingers across my casts most of the time, especially when I am not playing solo.

Edited by MajorKong, 30 August 2012 - 02:26 AM.


#106 Yphex

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:31 AM

Most scrubs think that a lot of skills equals a deep combat system.

In reality it doesn't take a huge load of skills to make a good and deep combat system.

Learn to use your weapons at the right time, stop mashing your button 1 once you have acquired a target and concentrate on movement and using the right stuff at the right time.

The combat system has a lot of depth and a very high skill cap to it, it's just not your spec that is making you OP this time, it's your actual skill.

#107 Minibiskit

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:33 AM

From my experience as a mesmer, the combat is only button mashy when I am lazy.  If i pay attention to self-combos and other player's combo fields, I can fight much more effectively.  So it is really up to the player to be as hardcore as they want in PvE.

#108 sthpaw

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:45 AM

PvE Gw1, you have these skills called Ursan = mash, shadowform = more mash,

PvP yes gw2 is less skills as you dont need as a caster, low set, sheild set, 40/40 set, high set. Spiking targets as a team.

#109 mithie

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 03:05 AM

View PostYphex, on 30 August 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

Most scrubs think that a lot of skills equals a deep combat system.

Oh jeez, not this argument again. No one said the number of skills equals a deep combat system. Games like League of Legends and DOTA have 4 skills, and they have tons of depth. Note that you can have mechanics which cater towards a casual crowd while still being deep - ex. Pokemon. Likewise, you can have mechanics which cater towards a more hardcore crowd, and still have depth - ex. chess.

At its core, a proper spread of risk vs. reward equals a deep combat system. The more risk you associate with each action, the more deliberate the performance of that action becomes. In Guild Wars, practically every action requires an investment of some sort, and has associated with them a serious risk. For example, to cast a simple heal spell like Word of Healing on a monk, you're investing in a certain amount of energy, the skill itself (to be power leaked or d-shotted), as well as the time you spent casting it. If it fails, or becomes interrupted/d-shotted/diverted, then you become placed at a serious disadvantage. Even a simple action like moving against a warrior or a water elementalist becomes a risky venture, as you open yourself up to knockdowns or snares. Skills which upset this balance rapidly becomes overpowered, such as Frenzy, where the "risk" part can be somewhat mitigated by switching stances.

This means that every action you do in Guild Wars is deliberate; must be deliberate. You do it because you think the reward outweighs the risk. If you miscalculated this balance, then you are punished, as you often are.

This risk is absent in Guild Wars 2. There is no investment required in using any skill except the for the cooldown. But you have two get out of jail free cards in the form of your evades to make up for these mistakes. Therefore, less thought needs to go into whether or not each skill needs to be used. There's no reason not to cycle all your dps skills as soon as they drop from cooldown. You're not risking anything.

You might argue that defensive skills in GW 2 like condition removal and escape skills require timing, and yes, you'd be right, but the rewards far outweigh the risks. If you have a condition on you, you remove it. Is there any reason to save your condition removal? Are you really risking anything by popping that bleed off right away? If a warrior is charging your face, you hit your escape skill. Are you risking anything by popping it? Are you really putting anything on the line? Yes, now it's on cool-down and unusable for the next few seconds, but so what? You have two evades to rely on as clutch. At worst, you force that warrior to expend one of his skills to catch up to you, at which point you can consider the situation even.

This causes each action in GW 2 to be more mechanical rather than technical. For each type of action, it's a very simple binary condition check. If I want to do damage, then cycle through my dps skills. If there is a condition on me, then I use my condition removal. If someone is in my face and I want some distance, I use my evade skill. As long as you follow those very mechanical rules, it's very difficult for you to be punished. On the other hand, in Guild Wars, relying on such mechanical rules will get you killed. If you get a condition on you in GW 1, rather than mechanically press your condition removal, you have to consider whether they're baiting you with a D shot, whether the condition is pressing enough to invest the 5 energy which can be better used for a stance, or if you can afford the time to cast. Therefore, it motivates the player to improve his game by relying on tactics rather than mechanics.

This is the difference between GW and GW 2 gameplay, and I think it's very hard to argue that GW 2 has more depth. Both are fun games, though, for very different reasons, and that's perfectly fine.

Edited by mithie, 30 August 2012 - 03:09 AM.


#110 Red Sonya

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 04:12 AM

View PostWinter3333, on 29 August 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

It is, you mash buttons and everything dies... than I came by a champion mob, alone... one poor soul had just run by me in opposite direction... I have prepared, tactics was set in my mind, I've pulled my spirit weapons up and battle begun... it soon ended, several times... some other guy came by and try to help me, battle was raging but result was same... I have become that other guy that ran in opposite direction and I hate those guys... I wowed myself to come back tomorrow!

Lol good story I'm there with the trebucket event in the 15-25 zone east of Norn territory. I got ownd by mobs I thought I could stomp comparing to other mobs I had been stomping solo. Those trebucket mobs come out of nowhere and in a pack of about 7 lol a level or two higher than me. But this is what I enjoy about GW2 and why it is better than GW1. There's plenty of skills and synergy but you have to figure them out. It's just not as complex as GW1 and I'm glad geesh Gw1 had so many skills there was no way it could ever be balanced. The Anet devs came up with a simple solution and it works. This is going to be a very popular and successful game I'm glad to say. ;)

#111 deteknician

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 05:46 PM

mithie: you explained exactly what I was trying to say, just 100x better.

#112 Netherscourge

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 06:04 PM

---GW is a Real-Time "Rock-Paper-Scissors" Strategy Game where you take a group of skills into various situations and hope you picked the right setup.

---GW2 is a Casual MMORPG with heavy instancing and a major PvP focus. Everyone is pretty much equal in all things and you're mainly just prepping yourself for End-Game PvP.

Honestly, there is no comparison to be made because they are two completely different games. I like both and accept them as seperate entities.

#113 Lun

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 06:12 PM

Despite all the blind fanboyism going on in this thread, this guy's right.

GW1 required skill, you couldn't just pick random skill set and go. GW2 instead, well.... I don't even remember what my weapon skills do. I just mash those buttons and I keep winning anyway. And with this attitude I still reached level 25 with no trouble and still not knowing what my weapon skills do.

Yup, seems to me something is definitely broken here.

#114 mithie

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 03:18 AM

Quote

---GW is a Real-Time "Rock-Paper-Scissors" Strategy Game where you take a group of skills into various situations and hope you picked the right setup

Again, this is not true. Guild Wars is not a rock-paper-scissor game There are elements which can be broken down for each setup which have advantages and disadvantages over other builds, but the overall build is qualified by the sum of those elements, not the individual.

Build A can have a strong condition removal element, which counters build B's strong condition application element. But build B can also contain a strong map control element (thanks to having enough conditions applied to cover cripple) which allows build B to adopt a heavily movement-based strategy to split and overwhelm build A. Both builds can contain 10 or 20 discrete elements, some of which counter the others, but in the end, victory is determined by the team which can best exploit their strong elements to beat the opponent's weak ones. How effective this is, essentially, boils down to how well each build is piloted. If build B continuously gets forced into 8v8s against build A, then they're pitting their weakest element against the opponent's strongest element. That's not a result of rock paper scissors; that's being outplayed by a more skilled opponent.

If you haven't played GW 1, then a more mainstream analogy might be Magic the Gathering. You can argue that there are cards which directly hard counters another card, and if you play that card while the enemy has a counter, then you'll lose, hard. But each deck is composed of (at a minimum) 60 cards. Some will counter, others will be countered. It's up to the player's piloting skills to determine when to play what. This is where the skill lies. In this sense, Guild Wars 1 was just as R-P-S like as Magic the Gathering.

Now, to be fair, in more organized matches in GW 2, there are hints of similar dynamics; but there are so many clutches (such as resurrection, evades, lack of hard shutdowns, etc) that prevent bad plays from being properly punished. Using the same example of build A vs. build B, in Guild Wars 1, if A forces B into an 8v8 (assuming equal skill) A is going to come out with an extremely strong advantage 10 times out of 10. In Guild Wars 2, if the same thing happens, there are enough clutch mechanics in play (diluting player skill), along with the lack of proper risk vs. reward, that build A may only come out on top 7 times out of 10. In those other 3 times, clutch mechanics and dodgy RNGs can allow build B to weasel its way out and recover.

The accessibility of Guild Wars 2 makes mistakes more forgiving; it encourages bad plays because it makes it more difficult to punish bad plays. One mistake in Guild Wars 2 won't result in significant setback, as in GW 1. That takes 10 mistakes staggered on top of each other.

But once again, lack of depth and risk is not necessarily a mark of failure. It's not evidence that the game is bad. It makes the game more accessible, and the skill gap between top and average players smaller. This can be a good thing, as it encourages a broader player base. Rather than a steep pyramid (as it was in GW), where the tip is small and made up of a few elite players, GW 2 will have a more even skill distribution among its pvp community. Making bad plays harder to punish will also encourage riskier and flashier plays, and this may end up with GW 2 matches being more exciting to watch, once the pvp community matures.

Edited by mithie, 31 August 2012 - 03:25 AM.


#115 deteknician

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 03:14 PM

Really good stuff there.

I agree and look forward to end game. I'm still having a lot of fun with GW2, it's a beautiful game.  I just miss the mind games that came with GW combat system.

Edited by deteknician, 01 September 2012 - 12:30 AM.


#116 Red Sonya

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 05:23 PM

I'm glad there is no ability to make 55 monks or invulnerable assassins. No Sabway no Wammo's (well maybe wammos lol) No silly builds that exploited the system of GW1. GW2 makes you play a certain way within the lines and I like that. GW1 was sooooooo messed up with so many skills that it basically ruined the community and pugging and gernally playing together like most of these games do. But, even so while GW1 had 1000's of skills there were only a FEW skillsets worth using thus not much different from this game except in this game you actually get 10 base skills (using two weapon swap) and your utilities an elite (14 skills) so actually a lot more ways of STRATEGY and TACTICS than in GW1 which only gave you 8.

#117 Zero_Soulreaver

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 07:49 PM

These threads are so old, why is every thread either a "wow sucks, GW2 is betta!" or "this game sux cuz it's not exactly GW1".  It's really the same answer to every thread like this that pops up.

If your mashing it's your choice to mash. Nobody is forcing you to play this way. Yes, GW1 had more depth but it was also a shitload more clunky in it's delivery.





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