91 replies to this topic

[Vampire Duzell]

I hate it when guilds say "You can join other guilds, but you must represent ours."
Then what's the point of joining multiple guilds? Maybe I have a guild with my friends from a different server, and maybe a guild that's in my server for WvW, and maybe you make your own guild just for fun. I hate having guilds whispering me saying to represent their guild. Now, I've just been playing as "invisible" so I can represent whatever guild and earn influence without having people spam me with "represent our guild" messages (although I can't read guild chat or talk in guild chat this way). If I am supposed to represent one guild 24/7, then there's no point in joining multiple guilds because all the other guilds would kick me anyways because almost all of the guilds I've been in have been like "represent us"

[Fizzypop]

Don't join their guild and tell them to piss off. maybe they'll change their policy when they realize they are losing members over it.

[Delusional]

Yeah, if a member can't represent the other Guilds they joined, they can't see the chat nor participate in it. So why bother letting them join multiple Guilds at all? Maybe they don't understand how it works.

I personally wouldn't join a Guild like that anyway, if I had the intentions of joining other Guilds.

[Vampire Duzell]

Yea I left them. Its kind of annoying when you can't be with your friends because a guild wants you to represent them 24/7

[Sheepski]

2 points I'd raise as a guild leader.

1) At this time a lot of people aren't even aware of how the represent/multiple guild things work.. so I remind my members to represent so that they get access to the guild benefits, and not for our own intentions. Although it would be annoying if people left because it "wasn't active enough" yet they weren't representing lol...

2) Why should all the freedom be on the members' side... if a guild allows them to join other guilds, and to represent freely, then I think it's only fair that the members are upfront and say "hey look I've joined/am joining other guilds (with friends, wvw, pvp, change of scenery) etc". This gives transparency for both guilds, illustrates how active people and guilds are and allows both parties to make decisions on whether to stay or not.

For example I have members who have freely stated they're joining other guilds too, so if I see they're not representing then fine, I know why... and they won't expect as much from our guild either. But someone who joined, didn't represent even when online then moved server, I made the judgement that he was in another guild/wasn't fussed about ours so removed him. But without the knowledge behind it it's a very confusing state.

So in my opinion, multi-guilding is fine as long as it's open. Why bother joining a guild if you don't plan to represent and do plan to join other guilds that are the same? How will you ever contribute to their communities?

*rant over *

[Fizzypop]

Sheepski, on 30 August 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

2) Why should all the freedom be on the members' side... if a guild allows them to join other guilds, and to represent freely, then I think it's only fair that the members are upfront and say "hey look I've joined/am joining other guilds (with friends, wvw, pvp, change of scenery) etc". This gives transparency for both guilds, illustrates how active people and guilds are and allows both parties to make decisions on whether to stay or not.

Because they are adults who bought this game to play? I don't need to be "allowed" to join other guilds nor do I need to clear it with others either. Seriously, it's just plain creepy to expect that kind of control over other people's behavior. Just assume the people will join more than one guild. That'll solve the problem right there.

[4arsie4]

The represent feature is basically Anet's attempt to allow players to have different guilds with different toons. Their initial intention, and design was not to be this way, so representing is a fix, perhaps not the most elegant one.

Think of the guild list as a friend's list, and represent as a group invite in a bigger scale.

[ituhata]

I'll represent whoever I feel like BSing with that day while I'm doing my thing. I'll represent whoever is taking me on a raid or a pvp run that day. Basically, I'll represent whomever I arfing please and there's nothing anyone can do about it that I wouldn't willingly do myself if I found out how they felt about it. =D

[Vampire Duzell]

Sheepski, on 30 August 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

2 points I'd raise as a guild leader.

1) At this time a lot of people aren't even aware of how the represent/multiple guild things work.. so I remind my members to represent so that they get access to the guild benefits, and not for our own intentions. Although it would be annoying if people left because it "wasn't active enough" yet they weren't representing lol...

2) Why should all the freedom be on the members' side... if a guild allows them to join other guilds, and to represent freely, then I think it's only fair that the members are upfront and say "hey look I've joined/am joining other guilds (with friends, wvw, pvp, change of scenery) etc". This gives transparency for both guilds, illustrates how active people and guilds are and allows both parties to make decisions on whether to stay or not.

For example I have members who have freely stated they're joining other guilds too, so if I see they're not representing then fine, I know why... and they won't expect as much from our guild either. But someone who joined, didn't represent even when online then moved server, I made the judgement that he was in another guild/wasn't fussed about ours so removed him. But without the knowledge behind it it's a very confusing state.

So in my opinion, multi-guilding is fine as long as it's open. Why bother joining a guild if you don't plan to represent and do plan to join other guilds that are the same? How will you ever contribute to their communities?

*rant over *

The thing is with guilds that require you to represent only their guild but allow you to join other guilds. Sure it would be fine if i could freely represent other guilds, but the thing is that they require you to represent their guild, not any others that you have also joined

[Eon Lilu]

If you don't like there representing "rule" don't join them. How else does a guild gain influence and grow?

[Kraag_Deadsoul]

Sheepski, on 30 August 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

2 points I'd raise as a guild leader.

2) Why should all the freedom be on the members' side... if a guild allows them to join other guilds, and to represent freely, then I think it's only fair that the members are upfront and say "hey look I've joined/am joining other guilds (with friends, wvw, pvp, change of scenery) etc". This gives transparency for both guilds, illustrates how active people and guilds are and allows both parties to make decisions on whether to stay or not.

Maybe because people are tired of guild leaders with Napoleon complexes who attempt to exert control over the lives of others through their position as guild leader?  That system has been tried and failed. Many people are fed up with the control freak guild leaders who create a guild for the personal sense of power it grants them rather than making the effort to build a community supportive of their membership.  I'm not saying this describes you personally as a guild leader nor does it describe every guild.  However, it describes enough guilds that ArenaNet saw fit to implement the multi-guild feature and give control to the guild membership rather than to the guild leaders.

It's a welcome change and frankly nobody's business which guild(s) anybody joins or who they represent.  Successful guilds will embrace this change and focus their efforts on building the best possible community that is supportive of their members rather than attempting to exert dictatorial control over them.  If you make it worthwhile for people to be in your guild, they will be more likely to stay and represent it.  Any attempt to restrict them will quite possibly result in lost members as they opt to join less restrictive guilds.  As the old saying goes, "You catch more flies with a teaspoon of honey than with a cup of vinegar."

[Zakov]

The first guild I joined, AND used my tome of influence on, wouldn't stop bugging me about representing them. I constantly told them I was currently in a friend's guild doing stuff with them, and they would pester me endlessly about "representing is our only guild rule". I blocked their annoying guild leader and promptly left the guild.

Too bad I can't have my tome back. I should've known better.

[Nox_Aeterna]

2 words.

Personal Guild.

[Kraag_Deadsoul]

Nox_Aeterna, on 30 August 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

2 words.

Personal Guild.

Exactly.  Represent yourself, earn your own influence.  May be excruciatingly slow, but it will be your's and your's alone to spend however you wish.

[Sheepski]

Vampire Duzell, on 30 August 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

The thing is with guilds that require you to represent only their guild but allow you to join other guilds. Sure it would be fine if i could freely represent other guilds, but the thing is that they require you to represent their guild, not any others that you have also joined

Ah ok, well that's obviously stupid if they won't let you represent other guilds. I don't see the point in restricting members from representing elsewhere, and it's not as if anyone can stop you from doing so. Like I said in my post though, it's only fair to the guilds you're in if you're open about the fact you're in different ones, if any have a problem with that then leave, but at least you know and they know what to expect really.

Kraag_Deadsoul, on 30 August 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

Maybe because people are tired of guild leaders with Napoleon complexes who attempt to exert control over the lives of others through their position as guild leader?  That system has been tried and failed. Many people are fed up with the control freak guild leaders who create a guild for the personal sense of power it grants them rather than making the effort to build a community supportive of their membership.  I'm not saying this describes you personally as a guild leader nor does it describe every guild.  However, it describes enough guilds that ArenaNet saw fit to implement the multi-guild feature and give control to the guild membership rather than to the guild leaders.

It's a welcome change and frankly nobody's business which guild(s) anybody joins or who they represent.  Successful guilds will embrace this change and focus their efforts on building the best possible community that is supportive of their members rather than attempting to exert dictatorial control over them.  If you make it worthwhile for people to be in your guild, they will be more likely to stay and represent it.  Any attempt to restrict them will quite possibly result in lost members as they opt to join less restrictive guilds.  As the old saying goes, "You catch more flies with a teaspoon of honey than with a cup of vinegar."

Yeah, I agree completely. I've not placed any restrictions on multi-guilding or representing. I only mention it to the members who aren't representing because they're unaware of it, mostly when they make a new character But it is an important and, difficult, issue for guild leaders to deal with. Obviously it's up to each and every guild to decide how much they want each member to contribute to that community and I do believe it's everyone in the guilds job to make it, and not just the leadership.

Personally, I even said before, that I don't have a problem with members representing elsewhere, but equally I don't see the point in someone being in the guild if they never represent...

[Cyrane]

Why would you allow your members to be a part of multiple Guilds, I honestly find the very multiple Guild system very silly. My Guild has one rule, you don't join other Guilds.

As a Guild you invest in your members and your community, it's only natural that you expect your Guild members to invest into the Guild as well by being an active, contributing and representing member. If someone doesn't want to do that then why is that person even a member of your Guild in the first place?

[ScoutMATH]

4arsie4, on 30 August 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

The represent feature is basically Anet's attempt to allow players to have different guilds with different toons. Their initial intention, and design was not to be this way, so representing is a fix, perhaps not the most elegant one.

Think of the guild list as a friend's list, and represent as a group invite in a bigger scale.

i think the emphasis on the character as a member of a guild is spot on.

[Yasuhiro]

I started a guild and its been pretty hectic. I brought a few people I knew in real life + before the game, and then have been recruiting.

I already have lots of people, who when I look, are not representing or they are on a whole different server. This is to be expected at this point with server transfers being free. Obviously all my real life friends are in the guild, representing, and on the server, but I'm talking about people I just recruited.

I don't send them whispers asking them to represent. Why should I? And why should they? They've known me for 3 days. If I joined a random guild and they started telling me to represent I would just leave if I have only known them for 48 hours. So why should expect any different?

If people want to be a part of my guild cool, if not, that's fine too. They don't owe me anything at this point.
Obviously, if a month goes by and they haven't represented once I will just kick them. But for now they are certainly free to do whatever they want. I would expect no less.

So if you have problems keeping members you knew outside the game, that is one thing, but to tell people you just met they have to represent is assanine. Then again, I am about as laid back as they come. I am just doing this for fun. I don't want or need to have power over anyone. I just want to have a good time with my friends in the game. People will come and go as time goes on. Many of these people won't even be playing in 2-6 months. So just enjoy the ride guys!

Even with all this we already have a guild bank 20 hours from being completed and have plenty more influence to spend.

If anyone wants to join up with us we are on Sorrows Furnace.

Edited by Yasuhiro, 30 August 2012 - 02:35 AM.

[Seera1024]

Cyrane, on 30 August 2012 - 02:10 AM, said:

Why would you allow your members to be a part of multiple Guilds, I honestly find the very multiple Guild system very silly. My Guild has one rule, you don't join other Guilds.

As a Guild you invest in your members and your community, it's only natural that you expect your Guild members to invest into the Guild as well by being an active, contributing and representing member. If someone doesn't want to do that then why is that person even a member of your Guild in the first place?

Because one guild might be focused on WvW and another focused on PvE/dungeons. And they might prefer smaller guilds where you aren't just another member. It's easier to be best at one function when you aren't having to do other things as well. So while a large guild would be able to have "perfection" in WvW or "perfection" in PvE/dungeons, a smaller guild might not be able to.

Or they might want a guild to be focused on PvX and a guild for RP'ing with.


And if I join another guild while still with my current guild, I will be upfront with them and say that I will jump between representing guilds. I'll also tell my first guild that I am joining a second guild as well. However, the guild I'm playing with, will be the guild I'm representing. And I'll probably choose the guild with the least influence to represent if I'm not playing with either guild at the time. I would definitely not be one to mooch off of another guild.

I'll leave my first guild if they decide I can't join another guild, but I doubt that will happen. And I won't be upset if the other guild says sorry since I won't be representing all the time.

I just hope you won't be upset if your guild doesn't grow to be one of the largest guilds. A lot of people want to be in multiple guilds (or have a personal guild for personal use) and people will probably leave or not join. Just save your guild some drama, and make sure that new recruits are informed of the you may only be in our guild rule. And decide if members are allowed to have personal guilds. I'll probably make one of my own just for the guild bank feature.

[Nostredeus]

It's a business my friend, the guilds need you and in exchange for your participation they provide a service. The system SHOULD work such that there is competition between guilds for your influence, if a guild is a ) ****ish and requires your participation or b ) not as good as other guilds, then you have a duty to represent the better guild.

By doing that you'll create competition and therefore the improvement of guilds in GW2.

A guild should be good enough that you want to represent them, if they have to force you to do so it is likely a sign of an underlying weakness; don't let this become a sellers market.

Edited by Nostrecorax, 30 August 2012 - 02:37 AM.

[rebalnz]

Fizzypop, on 30 August 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

Because they are adults who bought this game to play? I don't need to be "allowed" to join other guilds nor do I need to clear it with others either. Seriously, it's just plain creepy to expect that kind of control over other people's behavior. Just assume the people will join more than one guild. That'll solve the problem right there.

have to disagree on this. in the end its not your guild and the leader/s can set whatever rules they want. personally we have this in my guild aswell. because we dont wont heaps of people joining and then not chatting/contributing to the guild. im easy though i only need one guild and i am happy.

[Cyrane]

Seera1024, on 30 August 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

Because one guild might be focused on WvW and another focused on PvE/dungeons. And they might prefer smaller guilds where you aren't just another member. It's easier to be best at one function when you aren't having to do other things as well. So while a large guild would be able to have "perfection" in WvW or "perfection" in PvE/dungeons, a smaller guild might not be able to.

Or they might want a guild to be focused on PvX and a guild for RP'ing with.


And if I join another guild while still with my current guild, I will be upfront with them and say that I will jump between representing guilds. I'll also tell my first guild that I am joining a second guild as well. However, the guild I'm playing with, will be the guild I'm representing. And I'll probably choose the guild with the least influence to represent if I'm not playing with either guild at the time. I would definitely not be one to mooch off of another guild.

I'll leave my first guild if they decide I can't join another guild, but I doubt that will happen. And I won't be upset if the other guild says sorry since I won't be representing all the time.

I just hope you won't be upset if your guild doesn't grow to be one of the largest guilds. A lot of people want to be in multiple guilds (or have a personal guild for personal use) and people will probably leave or not join. Just save your guild some drama, and make sure that new recruits are informed of the you may only be in our guild rule. And decide if members are allowed to have personal guilds. I'll probably make one of my own just for the guild bank feature.

My Guild doesn't need to be one of the largest Guilds around, that's not something we are aiming for. I am only recruiting people through our website and forum and I am not getting new members by spamming the chat/invites to random people in the game itself, that's an awful way to recruit new members for your guild in my opinion. Our current way of handling things has actually worked out quite well because we have around 60-70 members and we usually have around 30 concurrent users on our Teamspeak server.

Anyway everyone that wants to join my Guild is aware of the fact that we only allow them to be in one Guild, ours, if people don't like that rule that's absolutely fine, but they won't be joining my Guild then because that's not the way we think our Guild should be set up.

[Kraag_Deadsoul]

Cyrane, on 30 August 2012 - 02:10 AM, said:

Why would you allow your members to be a part of multiple Guilds, I honestly find the very multiple Guild system very silly. My Guild has one rule, you don't join other Guilds.

As a Guild you invest in your members and your community, it's only natural that you expect your Guild members to invest into the Guild as well by being an active, contributing and representing member. If someone doesn't want to do that then why is that person even a member of your Guild in the first place?

Fair enough.  GW2, however, has so many facets to it that - unless you're a mega-guild - it's unlikely that you will be able to offer a guild which supports every possible style of play.  As Seera1024 explained, people may do a little WvWvW one day, the next day they do some sPvP, another day they go exploring in PvE, the next they work on their crafting, etc.  Belonging to multiple guilds allows such a player to find speciality guilds which support each of those endeavors with a group of like-minded individuals.

Furthermore, by allowing your members to belong to multiple guilds, it opens up possibilites for networking and forging alliances that you either wouldn't have thought of on your own or simply wouldn't have had the time as one person.  With your entire guild membership belonging to so many other guilds, the chance of making these connections is greatly improved due to division of labor among your members.

Nostrecorax, on 30 August 2012 - 02:36 AM, said:

A guild should be good enough that you want to represent them, if they have to force you to do so it is likely a sign of an underlying weakness; don't let this become a sellers market.

I've seen all too often guilds which have been made for one purpose and one purpose only; even if the guild leader is unwilling to admit it or may not even consciously realize it.  That reason is the need for power; the desire to be able to control other people.  Such guilds are toxic for their members and anathema to the community ArenaNet is attempting to build.  Multi-guilding completely neuters such guild leaders because it serves notice that their guild isn't the only game in town.

rebalnz, on 30 August 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

have to disagree on this. in the end its not your guild and the leader/s can set whatever rules they want. personally we have this in my guild aswell. because we dont wont heaps of people joining and then not chatting/contributing to the guild. im easy though i only need one guild and i am happy.

If you're going to argue that a guild leader is free to set whatever rules they want, then by the same logic - since we're talking about free-willed human beings; many of them grown adults - players are free to belong to as many guilds as they want and represent who they want.  If you want to kick them out of your guild for that, that's your prerogative as a guild leader.  Just don't be surprised if many players find such rules unnecessarily restrictive and choose not to join the guild in the first place.

The move is towards inclusivity, not exclusivity.  There will certainly be guilds which will be dictatorial and exclusive and will still maintain a high membership; many of them legacy guilds from GW1 or other gaming communities.  However, we're in the midst of a transition.  As players begin to realize the benefits of multi-guilding, they're going to look at the old guard and begin to wonder why they ever put up with all of the restrictive rules.  They will seek out guilds which have no problem with multi-guilding.  In appreciation for this breath of fresh air and freedom to do what they want, they will likely support such guilds with their representation.

I understand the arguments made by guild leaders in support of the one-guild-only philosophy.  But the landscape has changed and it's time to adapt; once people get used to this new system, they're never going to accept going back to one-guild-rule.  The ideal compromise, perhaps, is to identify what your guild will specialize in (WvWvW, PvE, PvP, crafting, etc.) and then simply ask nicely that your members represent your guild when engaging in that aspect of play.  Then be accepting of the fact they will represent other guilds when participating in activites in which your guild doesn't specialize.

Edited by Kraag_Deadsoul, 30 August 2012 - 03:49 AM.

[Gorgazm]

So far I only belong to a single guild, which is mostly members of my WoW guild we've come across to play some GW2 (it's awesome BTW loving it)

Perhaps guilds in GW2 require some additional and unique rules put in place if you are going to be in multiple guilds.

A guild wants members, and wants them to be active, in particular for GW2 so they earn influence.

Players want freedom, so we can all join multiple guilds as we please.

Perhaps a guild might require a set of rules to say players need to be representing the guild for X time, or earn X amount of influence for the guild per month (pretty sure you can look this statistic up). I won't go into too much detail about the specifics, like what if a player is on holiday etc. but i think something like this is probably what a guild needs.

Totally wouldn't be fair to the guild to have members who never represent them, likewise it's not fair to a guild to force players to represent them 100% of the time.

[SerDrak]

Dumb policy is dumb. My guild would never do that. It's folly to try and force someone into repping your guild.

[Kaiarra]

I wanted to have my own guild (me and my friends from wow for PvE), and join a separate guild for WvWvW... Haven't even bothered to try to find one yet, because I suspect any big PvP guilds will do their nut if I don't represent them all the time.

Think you should just appear offline in the roster if you're not representing...

[Durzo]

As a Co-GM I like to have people when in PvP or WvW represent the guild. When everyone is out just doing the PvE scene, I don't really care. But if you have 20 members online in your guild and 10 are representing other guilds why have them take up spots in your guild? Why must they be a part of multiple guilds, they take up space on a roster and are not actively benefiting your guild.

[Kraag_Deadsoul]

I understand the points on both sides of the argument.  What I think people need to realize, though, is multi-guilding isn't unbalancing the situation; it is bringing it back to balance.  Previously, guilds and guild leaders pretty much got to set the rules.  Only able to join a single guild, players were often at the mercy of strict recruitment practices and restrictive guild policies.  If they didn't tow-the-line, they were at risk of being kicked, losing the prestige of having been associated with the guild from which they were exiled, and then having to start all over again from scratch in searching for a new guild.  The guild leaders held all the cards.

Now, with multi-guilding and the influence resource, this gives players looking to join a guild a bargaining chip.  No longer are they just another peon in the guild roster.  With the potential influence they bring to a guild, they are now a much more valuable commodity for guild leaders.  Now, it's neither a buyers' nor a sellers' market; it's achieved equilibrium.

Guild leaders - if they want to earn influence for their guild - need to not only recruit but also retain members.  They must make their guilds a worthwhile place to stay since an active member who leaves represents a loss of potential influence.  Players - though they've gained the leverage of influence and the right to multi-guild - can no longer be guild leeches.  Guild leaders will be carefully reviewing their rosters to see who's representing and who isn't.  If a player wishes to remain in a guild, they must make an effort to represent it at least some of the time.

This brings us to where we should be; a position in which guild leaders and members are brought together to the negotiating table to work out mutually beneficial arrangements rather than one party or the other having the upper-hand.  The guild leader creates and maintains the guild for the benefit of the members.  The members, in turn, represent the guild, earning it influence.  Just how much time and influence each member will be expected to contribute will be something that each guild and its members are going to have to work out between them.

Some guilds will attempt to remain conservative, demanding 100% unquestioning loyalty, exclusive representation of the guild, and not permitting members to join other guilds.  Other guilds will be laissez-faire and not care one way or the other what their members do or how much influence they bring in for the guild.  Lastly, there will be the guilds that fall somewhere in the middle, negotiating compromises with their members as to how much influence they're expected to generate, how often are they expected to represent, how many other guilds can they join, etc.  That's all part of building a dynamic, living, breathing community; communication and compromising for mutual benefit.  This is a healthy direction for guilds in the long-run as it moves away from the one-sided scenario of the past, which too often saw restrictions put in place solely for the self-aggrandizement of the guild leaders.

Edited by Kraag_Deadsoul, 30 August 2012 - 11:08 AM.

[Dizzard]

I'm in one guild at the moment and I'm reasonably happy with it.

Although they haven't really stated what they're view on multiple guilds is I get the impression that they're not overly concerned. Or at least they're not set up to a point where they've started worrying about it.

I prefer this open approach really, I can't see myself joining a huge amount of guilds so I'd feel pretty confident I could contribute to all my guilds in the future.

I do think it's something that evens the balance between guild leaders and members quite a bit though. It won't be enough to just demand 100% loyalty to your guild....you'll have to earn that 100% loyalty.

[KenpoJuJitsu3]

This is pretty much exactly why I'll run my guild here the way I've run my guild in Champions Online for the last 3 years. Open door policy, these are just games. Join us, represent us when we're teamed up, take what you need, contribute what you can and just have fun. Also, don't be a jerk to other members. Petty simple stuff (to me) as a guild isn't supposed to be a job or, in the case of some guilds, a cult.