22 replies to this topic

[Eucelyptes]

So I've been trying to find a way I can play my Mesmer with Sword/Torch + Staff, which I don't think is a very un-common weapon combination. I have a specific sort of playstyle I'm looking for though... I basically want a Mesmersin, as some people are calling them. I want huge crit, with a focus on condition damage + Illusions. The survivability kind of comes naturally from being a Mesmer, but it also thrown into the build in spades. I think I've achieved it, and it's here for you to critique!


Link to build: http://www.gw2builds...20-1.12.9.1.9.2



Basically the idea is a sort of PvE/PvP Crit/Confusion/Bleed mix build. I'm a big hybrid character guy so I like to be well balanced, have some decent damage although maybe not the BEST DPS EVER, but also have some good survivability, which the mesmer definitely has.

The build has a lot of synergy, with your Illusions having very high crit (along with yourself), thus causing bleeding, and your iMage causing confusion (and bleeds if the crit-bleed applies to him too). You can also shatter for confusion stacks, which works nicely because there are SO many ways to create Illusions with the build. Your Illusions will also cause confusion when they die. So whether they are dying or you are shattering them, confusion is landing. All confusion also will last 33% longer.

Decoy and Mirror Images are the obvious instant Illusions, but you can also dodge to create an Illusion, which is somewhat spammable because everytime you crit you are getting Vigor, which lets you dodge more. 20% reduced CD on Leap is nice too, for both clone regening and in PvP chasing people.

You have a lot of HP regeneration if you do get caught, from either just having an iMage/Warlock out in general, or if you drop below 75% hp you can Invis and let your regen run its course. Decoy + Mirror Images also both break stun for PvP.

I'm not sure if the Damage Output would be too low to really get anything done, but I'd think with the really high crit in conjunction with Confusion/Bleeds, for PvE at least, it would be a pretty fun build to play. Any thoughts on what might go wrong, or what might be the drawbacks of it? It really seems like my playstyle. I know in PvP I'd end up sitting back with my Staff probably, but that's alright.

Side note: I know I didn't mention weapon swapping to Staff really. Frankly because I'm not very good at weapon swapping synergy yet, but once I get a bit better, I think it really opens this build up to a whole new level as well.

Cheers,
Eucelyptes (Sorrow's Furnace)

[Eucelyptes]

Lot of people viewing, not a lot replying!

Just looking for any thoughts, suggestions, reasons why this will/won't work? Looks to be a fun build at least...

I've only hit about level 25 so can't fully test the build so looking for some end-game insight from any Mesmers.

Cheers

[Macro]

Hey mate,

Not going to be able to contribute much at the moment since I just started playing the Mesmer a couple hours ago!

Liking what I am seeing in this build though and we seem to have a similar play style, thank you for taking the time to share with us and I look forward to more experienced members contributing

[MindProd]

During the stress tests, I read around that Mesmers don't have much in the way of condition damage. But recently, I found out that Burning and Bleeding from Staff wielding Clones (clones' regular attack) and Confusion from Trident wielding Clones (clones' regular attack) actually do damage. And put this on top of extra Bleeding from Clones' crit. Not to mention the boons you spread around since Staff Clones use Winds of Chaos.

So I'm now wondering as well about the viability of condition damage based Mesmers. The fun factor, though, is definitely there. Fully traited cooldowns brings Staff #2 down to 5 seconds which is more reliable than using Phantasms during dynamic events.

**(I say Staff wielding and Trident wielding because Clones created by other effects like Mirror Images and Decoy can inflict said conditions as well - assuming that you were using a Staff/Trident when you activated those skills.)

Edited by MindProd, 05 September 2012 - 04:11 AM.

[Dastion]

The website you're using for your build is currently over it's quota, so you can't see more.  From what you're saying it seems like you're trying to use a 1h Sword in your build which isn't very efficient for a build that stacks condition damage.  You're better off with greatsword.  It's clones and phantasms do multi-hits which will result in more bleeds.  Or Scepter/Pistol.

But this seems to have a similar basis to my crit/condition build I posted a few days ago.  I originally designed it for places where illusions don't have much life expectancy, but that could easily work well in PvE too.

Basic build (amounts and traits in parenthesis denote an alternate build option)
25 (30) Dueling - Phantasmal Fury, Duelist Discipline, (Deceptive Evasion)
25 (20) Chaos - Debilitating Dissipation, Chaotic Dampening
20 Illusions - Master of Misdirection, Illusionary Elasticity

Staff, Scepter&Pistol (alternatively you can replace scept/pistol with GS
-Illusionary Elasticity makes your staff primary attack hit an extra time and makes your Magic Bullet hit a 4th time (inflicts confusion).
-Any time a clone dies they're inflicting Confusion and one randomly 3sWeakness/3xBleeding/3xVuln

The alternative of 30 Dueling instead of 25 Chaos trades 5% of your toughness to condition damage for a bit more crit power and the ability to summon even more clones via dodging.

Edited by Dastion, 05 September 2012 - 04:49 AM.

[CasualPvP]

gwbuilds is down from too much traffic

However, I'm a big hybrid fan and likely run many similar builds, and although there are good reasons and some strong supporters of specialization on the forums here (hi Cat), I certain don't think hybrids sacrifice too much that you can't be competitive at most levels with one.

I would likely ditch Decoy for Blink, but it depends on your playstyle, I find that I can use Blink in every case I want to Decoy, plus more situations where I only want to Blink (although you lose one extra clone on a long cooldown). I also ended up removing Mirror Images from my builds, not that it wasn't good, but I generally could dodge/Retreat out enough clones. I was testing Vigorous Revelation at the end of the betas but never got enough time to decide on it (currently I'm leaning towards no - it just isn't good enough for your own use but might be nice for (melee) allies).

For example, when I have some time I'll be testing this: crit/condition Manipulation + Boons staff hybrid (where pistol could easily be swapped for torch):
http://gw2skills.net...LbOuuk5sKZ8xWEA

[Eucelyptes]

I definitely see the huge bonus Staff has on condition damage, just from it's auto attack alone, nevermind that the clones also have the condition applying auto attack.

I really wanted to try to find a viable Sword/Torch build, and just figured Staff was the most useful offhand in terms of buffs/AOE stuff.

Is the only truly viable option for Sword/Torch to focus on Precision and Power entirely?

Regardless of whether Staff would be BETTER for this build, I wonder if it still would be workable in the way I am envisioning it.

Here's a new link to a non-sucky website calc of the build:

http://gw2skills.net...doUcdYXpH8GudhA

[Dastion]

Eucelyptes, on 05 September 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

I definitely see the huge bonus Staff has on condition damage, just from it's auto attack alone, nevermind that the clones also have the condition applying auto attack.

I really wanted to try to find a viable Sword/Torch build, and just figured Staff was the most useful offhand in terms of buffs/AOE stuff.

Is the only truly viable option for Sword/Torch to focus on Precision and Power entirely?

Regardless of whether Staff would be BETTER for this build, I wonder if it still would be workable in the way I am envisioning it.

Here's a new link to a non-sucky website calc of the build:

http://gw2skills.net...doUcdYXpH8GudhA

From a purely statistical benefit point of view, the two don't mix.  Sword is a pure +Power weapon, while Torch gets very little benefit from Power.  It benefits iMage auto attack, but that's already pretty weak, it benefits also his retaliation buff.  But iMage is overall incredibly lackluster.  The Prestige is a pure condition damage skill with a clumsy stealth attached.

Prior to the channel being added to The Prestige's stealth Sword/Torch was very effective in PvP because the stealth and close proximity fire blast complimented Sword's melee range. You could stealth in and Blurred Frenzy someone with the added fireblast, but now you have to wait the full channeled time, can't dodge, heal, or summon clones while using the stealth it's pretty limited.

From what you've said you want to focus on using the Sword, but if you're using a weapon that gets no benefit from condition damage, and stacking condition damage then you've essentially got a worthless stat except for the infrequent iMage single Confusion stack he does (he can stack it up to 2x briefly) and hard to utilize Fire Blast from The Prestige.  Your primary damaging Sword attacks will be weak.

Precision + Condition damage is extremely effective for the staff, the Duelist tree will make your iWarlock crit frequently and hit like a truck in events with mass condition spam.  Which is good, because unfortunately the way the game works is that whoever has the highest condition damage takes priority on dealing damage, so unless you're that person you won't see any bleed/fire damage from your staff Spam.  But when your iWarlock is critting for over 4k it it doesn't really matter as much   Note that the condition priority thing is a reason I suggest Scepter in the build.  Other professions have very infrequent access to confusion, so it's one condition that we tend to get to actually see damage from reliably.

[CasualPvP]

Sword+torch is hard to synergize.

I might do something like this if I really wanted to maximize sword/torch: http://gw2skills.net...I7XuvkftwYUyUEA
(Completely theorycrafted and untested)
Glass cannon (low armor and vitality)
+40% condition duration (+77% confusion duration)
59% crit chance
Torch trait (reduced cooldowns, remove conditions)
Shatters and blind cause confusion

But this would probably work better with scepter+torch and keeping the hell way from your enemies.... hmm, maybe this is less squishy and less confusion based:
http://gw2skills.net...I7XuvkftwYUxUEA

Get 2 staff clones + 1Warlock and get personal with sword+torch. Would be nice to have some more +boon duration for all the boons you'll get from the staff clones, but the condition duration is still probably more important.

[CasualPvP]

Dastion, on 05 September 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

...because unfortunately the way the game works is that whoever has the highest condition damage takes priority on dealing damage, so unless you're that person you won't see any bleed/fire damage from your staff Spam

I don't want to derail this thread, but can you explain this a bit more Dastion? I was unaware of anything that would stop you from dealing condition damage and haven't noticed anything like that (but haven't looked carefully). Anyone confirm this? Is this on the wiki somewhere?

[Eucelyptes]

Appreciate all the replies guys, and no worries about possibly dereailng thread. I'm actually going to somewhat derail it myself by saying that I really, at this point in the game, don't want to use staff or scepter as a main set of weapons so think I am going to stray away from the condition focused builds...

Going to try my luck with a Phantasm Dual Sword build, probably something like:

http://gw2skills.net...<br /> <br /> Seems to be a bit more what I'm looking for at this point.

Edited by Eucelyptes, 05 September 2012 - 02:57 PM.

[CasualPvP]

Actually I would do sword+focus / sword+sword, and those traits would work quite well for a 1v1 specialist. Standing next to your melee phantasms (who will hit pretty hard) should work fine for solo PvE and swordsman with those traits will be pretty scary in PvP. I would test iDefender instead of Mirror Images since you'll be tanking a lot, your phantasms are tougher than normal, and sword clones are just OK.

Hm, looks fun, but will melt under condition stacking (switch Defender out for Disenchanter vs condition builds):
http://gw2skills.net...TOnkOtKYUwWkpIA

Edited by CasualPvP, 05 September 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[Eucelyptes]

Hmm will definitely look into that then, thanks!

I think I'd probably drop the 5 points in Chaos, and drop Phantasm Regeneration Aura for another 10 points in Duelling to get Clones on dodge as well... it just seems like too good of a Clone spammer, especially when my clones are so powerful and if I'm dropping Mirror Images.

Like this:

http://gw2skills.net...vhbXIA;TIADCmEA

I'd gear for Precision + Toughness, with Power where I could get it I imagine.

Edited by Eucelyptes, 05 September 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[Dastion]

CasualPvP, on 05 September 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

I don't want to derail this thread, but can you explain this a bit more Dastion? I was unaware of anything that would stop you from dealing condition damage and haven't noticed anything like that (but haven't looked carefully). Anyone confirm this? Is this on the wiki somewhere?

Let me clarify:

Bleeding:  Each stack deals damage independently based on the caster's stats, however the max of 25 stacks causes weaker bleeds to be pushed off.
Burning: Stacks duration and the strongest effect takes over the entire stack.

So in massive events, it's not uncommon not see very much Bleed/Burning damage if higher level or better geared people are around to push your stacks down.

http://wiki.guildwar...king#Conditions

We dont have it so bad.  I've had necro friends in a condition build do some events and come out with a bronze because others were keepin their damage from hitting, meanwhile I came out with Gold because despite suffering similarly, I at least had my iWarlock to take advantage of the constant condition stacks.

Edited by Dastion, 05 September 2012 - 06:17 PM.

[Eucelyptes]

That's a very interesting topic actually Dastion, and I never really thought about that...

Makes me even happier with my DPS/Tanky Phantasm build instead of a condition one - I guess the bleeds that come from it will only really be effective in solo/small scale PvE and PvP.

[CasualPvP]

Thanks Dastion, that makes senses now. That seems like a bug to me, in that even if your conditions don't do any damage they should be considered as "virtual damage" that is only counted towards participation. It also makes it that you can't team up with similar condition builds very easily. Hm.

[Xalted]

I've been trying so many different combinations of different builds and it seems that although you can do a ton of damage with a sword/pistol power build, we are strongest with a ranged, staff condition build for general PvE and group events.

[Eucelyptes]

Xalted, on 06 September 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

I've been trying so many different combinations of different builds and it seems that although you can do a ton of damage with a sword/pistol power build, we are strongest with a ranged, staff condition build for general PvE and group events.

I'm finding there's a lot of flexibility with this game in more or less playing how you want. Really just ends up depending on how well your traits/gear supports your playstyle.

I fully plan on playing as the aforementioned super-buffed Phantasm/Illusion, Sword/Sword + Sword/Focus build. I think it'd be a real fun playstyle that can pull off anything any other build could too - maybe just in different ways.

[Xalted]

Eucelyptes, on 06 September 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

I'm finding there's a lot of flexibility with this game in more or less playing how you want. Really just ends up depending on how well your traits/gear supports your playstyle.

I fully plan on playing as the aforementioned super-buffed Phantasm/Illusion, Sword/Sword + Sword/Focus build. I think it'd be a real fun playstyle that can pull off anything any other build could too - maybe just in different ways.

I would honestly love to try a melee sword/sword or sword/focus build but it seems like melee characters don't really fare well in the endgame dynamic events, let alone being a light armored class. With the right traits that buff Distortion and evade, it sounds like it could be a lot of fun.

Edited by Xalted, 06 September 2012 - 02:23 AM.

[Ice Pirate]

Dastion, on 05 September 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

Let me clarify:

Bleeding:  Each stack deals damage independently based on the caster's stats, however the max of 25 stacks causes weaker bleeds to be pushed off.
Burning: Stacks duration and the strongest effect takes over the entire stack.

So in massive events, it's not uncommon not see very much Bleed/Burning damage if higher level or better geared people are around to push your stacks down.

http://wiki.guildwar...king#Conditions

We dont have it so bad.  I've had necro friends in a condition build do some events and come out with a bronze because others were keepin their damage from hitting, meanwhile I came out with Gold because despite suffering similarly, I at least had my iWarlock to take advantage of the constant condition stacks.

I've run into this problem on my necro personally a couple times on event bosses. What this will do eventually is lead to specific builds on certain classes being allowed in certain situations. It's possible that it may stay a guild or party specific issue who knows. It will have to be adjusted possibly by Anet.

Edited by Ice Pirate, 06 September 2012 - 03:03 AM.

[Eucelyptes]

I don't know much about the endgame stuff and how well buffed up Phantasms will do to be honest but... seems like it'd kind of be a cool "pet" ish type build for a Mesmer to level with 25-60's maybe? I guess your phantasms and illusions scale with you though so maybe it's more feasible than you think!

I'll let you know in a few weeks when I'm 80 heh.

[vareka]

I have a question about the initial post. I never found which stats you were focusing on: crit, vitality, condition dmg or else?
Sorry if it's in somewhere, but I didn't find it while quickly running through the posts:o Thanks!

[Lastchime]

Xalted, on 06 September 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

I would honestly love to try a melee sword/sword or sword/focus build but it seems like melee characters don't really fare well in the endgame dynamic events, let alone being a light armored class. With the right traits that buff Distortion and evade, it sounds like it could be a lot of fun.

Give er bud, what the paper pushing doesn't factor in is just how much damage we DON'T take, distortion, retaliation, protection, aegis, reflection all are pretty easy to access not to mention when an illusion gets targeted rather than us.

  I like sword/sword + staff though. You don't even really need the clone on dodge we can pump em out like crazy anyhow. Our melee is our best AoE anyways, but we won't perform well easily at DEs anyhow, it's more a problem with the DEs than our class though.

  Get some points in chaos and facetank + bounce around for a dungeon, guaranteed to have a blast.