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Anyone else feel like Trahearne is a bit contrived? (Spoilers maybe?)


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#1 Zipzo

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 06:00 PM

First you're the new and elite hot shot of your corresponding order, but eventually you meet up with Trahearne, a Sylvari scholar who is greatly respected for his knowledge but not even close for his lack of combat skills (which I guess he develops over time after meeting you)...

The thing I don't get his how he arbitrarily appoints himself in charge of the new "trinity" order, literally self-proclaims himself the Marshal, and you as second in command. It seems like his character went from timid/shy and somewhat conservative scholar, to a war hero - experienced leader of nations.

I just feel like his character got warped a little bit, when you first meet him you don't think "Oh yeah, he's going to be the one". If anything you'd think it'd be...well...yourself.

I don't know, maybe I'm over thinking it, it just personally bothers me (lore-wise) how he is literally completely self-proclaimed, and never struck me nor was meant to strike anyone as a combat-ready and battle hardened "Marshal" ready to lead the races to freedom from Zhaitan.

#2 Lareem

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 06:50 PM

In Sylvari storyline its really natural, you meet him early on a do some missions with him. Pale tree herself chooses him to lead and you even go with him to dream of Orr were you see future him leading an army.

#3 Munkee

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 07:03 PM

Well, he's told by the Pale Tree that he will have to be the one to lead the Pact and being a Sylvari will do whatever it is the Pale Tree says. That and your character tells him he should be the leader since no other Order member should be in charge of them all.

#4 PersonaJXT

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 07:26 PM

I agree that when Trahearne, who had largely no big accomplishments that I knew of, who I was told had large amounts of knowledge and was respected by the three orders, was going to lead the alliance, I was rather put off. I mean, who was this guy? All I knew was that he was doing the same thing I was telling the guards that an attack was coming, and that my npc buddy apparently knew who he was.

And then he was largely useless in combat. He had no useful insights to offer anytime, and he did little to nothing when my npc buddy did his whole heroic thing.

Yeah, we needed a guy who wasn't affiliated with any of the orders, but Trahearne? Who, as a human, I hadn't even heard or before? Who had a reputation as a scholar (and by his own acknowledgement later had been running away from fighting by burying himself in studying), and had no reputation as a leader? I dunno, I just didn't buy into him at all.

If I wasn't going to be leader as the player character, I would've expected some other big name to step in. Maybe one of Destiny's Edge. Or one of the Lion Guard. But not some no-name that I barely met a moment ago. And especially not since it seems like I'm making most of the big decisions anyways.

Maybe it's better as a Sylvari, I wouldn't know since my Sylvari is still level 2. But as a human at least, Trahearne just didn't sit well with me.

#5 Korlic

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 07:30 PM

Thats still not much of a resume for why he should be leader. Coming from a different race (Human) where I have little contact with him before... seems odd. Just shared the Orr vision with him, and seeing as besides him giving his speech you lead the way through the entire area. Seems more like a self fulfilling prophecy (I see him lead in the future I must make him leader for it to happen)

#6 moomooo1

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 08:26 PM

I agree that the story telling could've be done better(the Master of Whispers identity reveal was atrociously bad, but had promise had they done it right). The character itself I can *see* what they were trying to get at. The timid type who can summon a lot of courage, more than he himself knows. This is a very common and likeable hero in all our media.

Only... they didn't show us any of that. You're right. He went from useless NPC informant to leader. I don't know. I definitely think they could've worked on that. Plus, the bond between you two. When he appointed me second in command I couldn't see why...

But... We expect a little too much. Compared to other MMO's, the story telling is pretty good. I guess if we wanted an engaging personal storyline we really should be playing those singleplayer games :P

#7 FoxBat

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 08:56 PM

This is the same old crap we've had since Rurik and Kormir. Some dweebish mary sue steals the spotlight from what was supposed to be *our* personal story. Since his introduction the entire personal story revolves around HIM as the "chosen one," with your character becoming second fiddle praising his greatness. He is a horrible, unwelcome character and worse, an insulting trade for the much better Order mentors, particularly Tybalt.

Edited by FoxBat, 04 September 2012 - 08:58 PM.


#8 Isarien

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 08:58 PM

View PostLareem, on 04 September 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

In Sylvari storyline its really natural, you meet him early on a do some missions with him. Pale tree herself chooses him to lead and you even go with him to dream of Orr were you see future him leading an army.

I can vouch for this. It didn't feel abrupt or contrived at all, but this is from the perspective of a Sylvari who met Trahearne at level 11 and then again at Claw Island. I don't know how similar or different it is for other races, but I do agree with the quoted poster, and not the OP. :\

#9 Sieran

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 09:02 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 04 September 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

This is the same old crap we've had since Rurik and Kormir. Some dweebish mary sue steals the spotlight from what was supposed to be *our* personal story. Since his introduction the entire personal story revolves around HIM as the "chosen one," with your character becoming second fiddle praising his greatness. He is a horrible, unwelcome character and worse, an insulting trade for the much better Order mentors, particularly Tybalt.

I would fight behind Sieran.

#10 jazilla

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 09:09 PM

I liked my storyline until I got into the late 30's portion of it. Some of the dialog is really bad. The delivery on the voice work is pretty bad too. This is my one knock on the game so far: The story isn't very good. It is odd coming from ToR to this game in terms of story. That is the single area that game was good at. The personal stories(for most of the classes at least) were well written with good voice work. There were exceptions, but that was the decent part of that game. The game world here in GW2 is amazing, but the story elements(writing) can be wince worthy at times.

I agree with the sentiment of our plant-friend. It's hard to care about a character too much when you get introduced to him and he doesn't really stand out and then goes to superstar status. It's an odd decision IMO. Oh well. I don't love guild wars for the stories. Heck, one of my fave stories in gw1 is factions because it is so bad. The unintentional comic relief is amazing like a bad b-rated movie.

#11 Zipzo

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 09:24 PM

View PostIsarien, on 04 September 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

I can vouch for this. It didn't feel abrupt or contrived at all, but this is from the perspective of a Sylvari who met Trahearne at level 11 and then again at Claw Island. I don't know how similar or different it is for other races, but I do agree with the quoted poster, and not the OP. :\
You don't think that maybe the other races should get the same sort of exposure to the character :/?

If you can at least understand why any other race other than Sylvari may feel this way...then that's progress.

#12 nilzardo

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 09:32 PM

What makes you guys think that you, the petty noble "hero of Shaemoor" who joined an order a day ago and gets his/her ass licked by all the cool kids deserves to be the bigshot? i find the whole stereotypical bullshit story about the PC being the chosen one pretty boring, and I'm glad that the npcs get to stand into the spotlight. When you look at it from a lore perspective it seems natural that a sylvari firstborn who's Wyld Hunt is to cleanse Orr and has thus been studying the land for the last 25 years, and was appointed by the Pale Tree herself to lead the forces gets to be the leader, rather than some little faceless "dweebish Mary Sue" player character.

#13 Zipzo

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 09:42 PM

View Postnilzardo, on 04 September 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

What makes you guys think that you, the petty noble "hero of Shaemoor" who joined an order a day ago and gets his/her ass licked by all the cool kids deserves to be the bigshot? i find the whole stereotypical bullshit story about the PC being the chosen one pretty boring, and I'm glad that the npcs get to stand into the spotlight. When you look at it from a lore perspective it seems natural that a sylvari firstborn who's Wyld Hunt is to cleanse Orr and has thus been studying the land for the last 25 years, and was appointed by the Pale Tree herself to lead the forces gets to be the leader, rather than some little faceless "dweebish Mary Sue" player character.
We aren't just the hero of sheamoor by the time the trinity forms and Trahearne takes Marshal status. At that point in the story we, as in our character, have committed many brave and courageous notable acts(claw island anyone?)...and I doubt it all took place within a day...

Edited by Zipzo, 04 September 2012 - 09:43 PM.


#14 deathfoox

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 09:45 PM

From what I understood after listening to the chat between trahearne and myself in the mission about who should lead the order, We ( the character) elect trahearne as the best choice, he just agrees and states that the pale tree was right and he had to step up. Even thanking the character for believing he could lead, he in no way said "You want to lead, that sucks?". I expected that we would be leader of course, but just before announcing who it was, I thought the character never really leads orders in video games and I was correct, although I think they should have still made the character leader, because Guild Wars 2 is one of the only mmos where your decisions lead to different destinations, so it would be interesting to lead the Trinity.

Edited by deathfoox, 04 September 2012 - 09:47 PM.


#15 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 09:58 PM

It's like demanding our characters to become the king of Ascalon, or the god of knowledge. It ain't gonna happen folks.

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#16 Zipzo

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 10:19 PM

One of Trahearne's lines in the orian ship ambush story mission...

"It's seems that you're the primary focus of these attacks, but it's clear that I'm the real target"

Grr...he just gets on my nerves. It's almost self-centered in a way.

#17 Khaz

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 10:28 PM

While I was also somewhat surprised that he became Marshal at first, it makes sense for an NPC to lead the union (at least until future expansions?) While he has to be Marshal and is stuck discussing strategy and building forts and managing resources etc, etc for the "undetermined amount of time between each mission", you get to go be a hero everywhere and to everyone, and you come help out when you feel like it.

TL;DR: Being "just" the Commander gives you a lot of flexibility to save the rest of the world at the same time.

#18 Helliion

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 11:12 PM

I thought our characters suggested that he lead because he is neutral amongst the 3 factions. He didn't take the leadership himself: he accepted our offer.

#19 deathfoox

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 02:06 AM

View PostHelliion, on 04 September 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:

I thought our characters suggested that he lead because he is neutral amongst the 3 factions. He didn't take the leadership himself: he accepted our offer.

Yep that is also how I understood it. He never forced people to accept him as a leader. We the hero elected him.

#20 Miteshu

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 02:09 AM

Spoilers:
Spoiler

Edited by Miteshu, 05 September 2012 - 02:10 AM.


#21 draxynnic

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 02:22 AM

View PostKhaz, on 04 September 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

While I was also somewhat surprised that he became Marshal at first, it makes sense for an NPC to lead the union (at least until future expansions?) While he has to be Marshal and is stuck discussing strategy and building forts and managing resources etc, etc for the "undetermined amount of time between each mission", you get to go be a hero everywhere and to everyone, and you come help out when you feel like it.

TL;DR: Being "just" the Commander gives you a lot of flexibility to save the rest of the world at the same time.
Partly this. There's also an element of 'never be indispensible, it means you can't be promoted out of your current position'. The PC is, at this point, likely the Pact's best fighter or among the best fighters, and thus too valuable in that role to remove from the field. But if the Pact is smart enough that you don't want your commander-in-chief on the front lines - either because that hinders them from being able to see the 'big picture' or because of the risk of then having your CIC getting killed or incapacitated in a random skirmish - that essentially disqualifies the PC from being the head honcho. Especially if (I haven't got that far yet) the Pact is already considering sending a strike team against Zhaitan that includes the PC - it would be bad enough if that strike fails without that failure also rendering the Pact leaderless in one blow.

Or to TL;DR it: The PC is just too badass to fly a desk.

From what I'm reading, though, it does sound as if Trahearne could have used a little more leadup - possibly an arc (or even just one step) that shows he has a plan for Orr and that that plan just might work.
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#22 Mishoniko

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 02:34 AM

Your character's involvement with events starts with how events shape you (origin stories), then to shaping events (Order stories), then to events that shape others (Pact stories).

I agree that Trahearne grabs a bit more than his share of the spotlight in the narrative (partially because he likes to talk a lot), but he couldn't be there without your support and guidance. At that stage in the story, you character's role is more parental, encouraging Trahearne to tap into his inner well of confidence and capability. It's an unusual role that rarely appears in games since common game plots are focused around the player's ascension to glory and stops once attained.

It's also an odd juxtaposition of a character totally beholden to destiny (Wyld Hunt, vision of leadership) who leads the mortal races to victory and the self-determined player who is there to nod his head in agreement and pick from a lottery of potential actions at various points.

#23 Lyall

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 02:51 AM

Everything Trahearne says angers me.

"You'll never succeed alone. I will accompany you." Yeah. The Vigil, a guild of professional soldiers is inadequate and needs the help of a single scholar with no military experience.


I might not even hate him so much if he didn't directly replace the best characters in the personal story. Salt in the wound.

#24 Zipzo

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 05:05 AM

View PostLyall, on 05 September 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

Everything Trahearne says angers me.

"You'll never succeed alone. I will accompany you." Yeah. The Vigil, a guild of professional soldiers is inadequate and needs the help of a single scholar with no military experience.


I might not even hate him so much if he didn't directly replace the best characters in the personal story. Salt in the wound.
This is a big part of my beef with the character.

Some of the things he says are so downright...I don't know...self flattering. So much so that it makes me outright think "Oh and who made you Goku?" and then I have to remind myself "Oh yeah, I did".

Like I said above...he makes another comment, "It's clear you are the primary focus of the attacks, but I am obviously the target". The statement is almost a flat out contradiction in and of itself in an effort to absolve a completely stuck-up comment of its woes of sounding mind-numbingly blowhard-ish.

They just gave him so many lines that are not necessarily out of place but are much too easy to un-pack as being self-centered, or overly self-confident.

It makes me feel the opposite of proud (which is what I assume the game wants me to feel for him?), it makes me want to tell him to get off his high horse (which again, sucks because I had to put him there from my characters POV) and stafoo.

Top all of this off to a cake that was made under a story where he played very little role leading up to his actual first appearance in my gameplay...it all feels exactly as I said, contrived.

Edited by Zipzo, 05 September 2012 - 05:10 AM.


#25 Atticus

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 05:45 AM

View PostZipzo, on 05 September 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

This is a big part of my beef with the character.

Some of the things he says are so downright...I don't know...self flattering. So much so that it makes me outright think "Oh and who made you Goku?" and then I have to remind myself "Oh yeah, I did".

Like I said above...he makes another comment, "It's clear you are the primary focus of the attacks, but I am obviously the target". The statement is almost a flat out contradiction in and of itself in an effort to absolve a completely stuck-up comment of its woes of sounding mind-numbingly blowhard-ish.

They just gave him so many lines that are not necessarily out of place but are much too easy to un-pack as being self-centered, or overly self-confident.

It makes me feel the opposite of proud (which is what I assume the game wants me to feel for him?), it makes me want to tell him to get off his high horse (which again, sucks because I had to put him there from my characters POV) and stafoo.

Top all of this off to a cake that was made under a story where he played very little role leading up to his actual first appearance in my gameplay...it all feels exactly as I said, contrived.

I have to agree with this as well, Trahearne's comes off as so infatuated with himself and his own supposed importance that he's borderline condescending at times. I can't tell you how many times I rolled my eyes at his comments, "I will bear this burden there is no one else", "This is well within MY abilities", "Commander I will accompany you to make sure you succeed" (will you hold my hand to make sure I don't get lost too? Come on). I'm sure my character really appreciates that coming from a guy who was introduced as a scholar and not much else. I mean in conversations where he, Forgal (an example of a good character btw) and the PC are speaking he is basically just along for the ride then we have a nice chat with the Pale Tree, he gets a new sword (with a backstory explaining it's importance but apparently we're never provided with that...) and boom he inexplicably becomes Mr badass-take-charge, savior of the world and you're his flunky.

Another thing that puts me off about Trahearne is his voice actor, dear god he sounds like every boring teacher/professor you've ever had droning on about this or that, in fact moment he starts talking he just sucks the energy out of the conversation. I can't stand it, even in exciting moments he opens his mouth to speak and no matter what comes out it has the same effect as him chatting about starving children in africa, it just kills the moment.

P.S. Oh yea and his character model is kind of awful too, so yea I'm with you all he's a surprisingly off putting and grating character all in all.

Edited by Atticus, 05 September 2012 - 05:56 AM.


#26 BaconSoda

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 06:58 AM

Gameplay issues of this aside, this is one of those things our NPCs should have already known about.

I'm sure no one here would be complaining if they had said that Destiny's Edge was going to lead the Pact. The difference is that as players, we know about Destiny's Edge. There's a book out about them which has a physical copy. To the same extent that they're famous to us, Traehearne should be famous to our characters. He's the foremost scholar on Orr.  All he's done for his entire life is study Orr. Better than anyone else, he knows how the Dragon thinks, how it acts, and what it does. Aside from that, he has a Divine Right of Kingship. His creator literally told him to lead. We were there to hear her. He's the same kind of natural choice that Joan of Arc was.

Could the story be handled a little better, though? Absolutely. It's said in this thread, though, that there's more details about him in the Sylvari story. If you want to learn more about him, that might be the place to go. However, the explanation from the Pale Tree and the description of his reputation really should be enough for most folks.

His dialogue is also something to be judged by taste. I'm not overly fond of it but I don't find it insulting, either. If you don't like it there's a next button so you can hear yourself talk.

#27 That Happy Cat

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 07:06 AM

I feel like his character underwent too staggering a change from Scholar to Marshal of the Pact. Like people have said, he seems to transform from someone unsure of his own abilities to... well, some pompous ass. If the change was more gradual, it might feel more like he's gaining confidence and discovering his potential; but as it is it's like he had an ego meltdown after you vouched for him.

The fact that his voice acting was so monotonous and cheesy (seriously, most of the minor NPC voice acting was better than his) only contributed to this feeling.

#28 Edge

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 07:41 AM

They could have made a better character. I think Trahearne is really boring, almost identical to Kormir who also ends up stealing the spotlight for doing absolutely nothing. You're his commander but all he does is follow you, some leader. If they wanted to give him more feeling the least they could have done is made him hold his own ground. His voice acting is also some of the worst I've heard in the game, literally no emotion.

Edited by Edge, 05 September 2012 - 07:47 AM.


#29 Zipzo

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 08:15 AM

View PostBaconSoda, on 05 September 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

Gameplay issues of this aside, this is one of those things our NPCs should have already known about.

I'm sure no one here would be complaining if they had said that Destiny's Edge was going to lead the Pact. The difference is that as players, we know about Destiny's Edge. There's a book out about them which has a physical copy. To the same extent that they're famous to us, Traehearne should be famous to our characters. He's the foremost scholar on Orr.  All he's done for his entire life is study Orr. Better than anyone else, he knows how the Dragon thinks, how it acts, and what it does. Aside from that, he has a Divine Right of Kingship. His creator literally told him to lead. We were there to hear her. He's the same kind of natural choice that Joan of Arc was.

Could the story be handled a little better, though? Absolutely. It's said in this thread, though, that there's more details about him in the Sylvari story. If you want to learn more about him, that might be the place to go. However, the explanation from the Pale Tree and the description of his reputation really should be enough for most folks.

His dialogue is also something to be judged by taste. I'm not overly fond of it but I don't find it insulting, either. If you don't like it there's a next button so you can hear yourself talk.
Getting the wrong idea here...

I know why he became the Marshal. I'm paying attention to the story. That's not the complaint.

The complaint is that his character building leaves something to be desired for the Marshal of Pact...the one guy who's supposed to engineer and helm the defeat of Zhaitan...

He flips too quickly within the story in a way that makes his character seem to be too inverse to what little we've already learned of him.

This isn't about the in game reasons why he is what he is...it's past the 4th wall. His character was just poorly executed and they flipped him too suddenly. Too much too fast, and it basically achieves the opposite effect in terms of what the player probably is meant to feel for him. Instead of feeling proud of him, or respecting his rise to the position, or rooting for him...you're given the inclination to find him pompous or self-absorbed.

Personally, I don't mind the voice acting, I think that's another can of worms to open up, but why would I skip his dialogue when I'm interested in the story...? That seems rather counter-productive does it not...?

Edited by Zipzo, 05 September 2012 - 08:16 AM.


#30 Midnight_Tea

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 08:48 AM

... I guess I'm alone in being the one person who really likes Trahearne? I'd agree that he kind of comes out of nowhere and the whole story about him becoming the leader of the Pact is a bit rushed. But I just sort of assume there is more to his story that I'm not seeing. I think Trahearne could grow on us if they fleshed him out a bit more. Maybe a book or comic or something could go a long way to making him more rounded. I know you could say "that's no excuse, extra material shouldn't carry the story!" and I'd totally agree. But I'm willing forgive the whole thing with Trahearne because GW2 isn't a singleplayer RPG. It's an MMO with a "personal story" attached and ArenaNet was hitting some project deadlines. In other words, we're probably seeing a shadow of what we should've for the 60-80 story. I'd take solace that future expansions to the game won't likely have this problem, not to the same degree.

Know what bothers me about Trahearne? I really dislike they never really talk about his being a necromancer. It's very easy to forget that he has his own undead minions. They really missed an opportunity to explore this juxtaposition of a necromancer being the voice of hope against Zhaitan and the Risen. And I mean, like, they missed it like whoa.

But since I can sort of imagine what they wanted to do with him, I can appreciate the character. And honestly? I don't want to be the pact marshal. Or a leader. Or a god. When did MMORPGs become less about feeling swallowed up in a big world with activity going on all around you to every NPC stroking your ego and calling you a hero? That trend has irritated me for years and I often have to grit my teeth when collecting my renown heart money.




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