54 replies to this topic

[Soulstitchmmo]

Tonight I faced a server, that spent the entire night with their map cap zerging our doors at garrison.

I am using the term zerg appropriately, because their entire force, with barely a siege ram was constantly hitting 4 of the 5 doors non-stop all night long. They at least used the tactic of supply suppression, but the rest of the night they simply continuously ran at all 4 doors for approx 4 hours with the theory of doing as much damage as they could before being wiped.

All night long.

No tactics, other than supply suppression and zerging.

If this was WoW. I'd have stopped getting any reward from any of them hours ago because of how many times they were all killed.

Wave after wave of attacks pushed back, who knows how much they spent in repairs and flame rams, but we spent hours doing this.

Anti-Zerging code needs to be implemented, and I'm suggesting that if you die to many times within a time period you get kicked from the map, or cost of dieing needs to be drastically increased.

Armor repair needs to be much much larger to stop people from zerging for hours. There are plenty of people who are willing to take your spot if you can't afford to wvw any more. It's not like there's a problem with the queues.

So either come up with some kind of "you died this many times so you're out" or increase armor repair costs exponentially.

Edited by Soulstitchmmo, 05 September 2012 - 05:54 AM.

[Freelancer]

We talked about this on Tales of Tyria quite a bit, I can't recall the episode specifically. The general topic was "is the armor repair cost too low" and many of the fans agreed with the concept that right now as it stands, there is little to lose to just "throwing" yourself at the enemy over and over.

Perhaps a "tutorial" tooltip could also pop up for newer players that are brand new to the idea that would say "siege rams do more damage, this is how you build them" or similar.

[JemL]

cost repair are more than enough, if a world has a zerg and you dont...is not a reason to make people pay more for repairs.

about deaths and kills i dont know how is this system, and i dont know if it counts in the numbers, at the end, but kicking someone who was in queue or wants to be there just because he dies, not an option.

[Gankfest]

I can agree that armor repairs aren't a real penalty like they should be; it's really cheap to repair and costs almost nothing. Armor repair costs should be higher. I think having a Death Penalty like in Guild Wars 1 would be nice for WvWvW; people would have to l2p and would fix the zerging issue. Something like a stacking debuff over a certain amount of time would work just great. Then all we need to do is fix the Yakking.

[sagasaint]

Soulstitchmmo, on 05 September 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

There are plenty of people who are willing to take your spot if you can't afford to wvw any more.

while in general terms your idea is nonsensical, you make a good point here...probably the only good point.

increasing the repair costs would promote a more tactical, better though approach to the WvW than the graveyard zerging we see, AND it would help cycle the queue more often, because every so often people would be forced to leave the map and gain money (PvE, crafting) to support their war spendings.


still I cant say I totally agree with you. Commitment is key in winning a war, people sticking to their guns after a few wipes are the ones that deserve the win, not those that call it a day and go farm DEs.

[badmartialarts]

Back in the beta I ran out of money for repairs, so I kept fighting naked.  So that wouldn't stop me.

[J0M0]

It will just take time for everyone to figure out zerging will not win you the battle if you go against opposition who are in organized strike force teams.

[DeagarFA]

Transferring to another server after losing one time and then complaining about the server-group being too easy is pretty funny, but I've been stating for a long time that I'd love it if when you died you got kicked out of the zone if there was a queue.

There's no real death penalty in WvW and it removes the risk vs reward aspect of gaming. I hate seeing an enemy I killed 30s ago. Just for fun they should make the #1 server-group matchups have 10% gold looting, respawn timers and a stronger death sickness.

[Soulstitchmmo]

J0M0, on 05 September 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

It will just take time for everyone to figure out zerging will not win you the battle if you go against opposition who are in organized strike force teams.

Of course tactics will develop over time, but the fact people are doing it shows that the penalty for death is not enough. "Home Map Advantage" should not equal "shortest run".

Same goes for spawn camps.

[Iron Legionnaire]

^ I don't think that's fair, since the repair costs really hurt losing teams at the moment, and there's not much they can do except try again and again and again.

JemL, on 05 September 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

about deaths and kills i dont know how is this system, and i dont know if it counts in the numbers, at the end, but kicking someone who was in queue or wants to be there just because he dies, not an option.

Dunno, I'd find this really interesting, personally... it would definitely change the game, and it doesn't cost anyone unnecessary expenses.

Edited by Iron Legionnaire, 05 September 2012 - 08:39 PM.

[Soulstitchmmo]

Iron Legionnaire, on 05 September 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

^ I don't think that's fair, since the repair costs really hurt losing teams at the moment, and there's not much they can do except try again and again and again.
Dunno, I'd find this really interesting, personally... it would definitely change the game, and it doesn't cost anyone unnecessary expenses.

My thinking is:

If death has a serious real penalty, it will focus people to figure out how to approach a situation. So instead of mindless zerging out the front door, check the side exits.

[Iron Legionnaire]

Soulstitchmmo, on 05 September 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

If death has a serious real penalty, it will focus people to figure out how to approach a situation. So instead of mindless zerging out the front door, check the side exits.

I don't think so. I generally do not believe that's how these things work.

People zerg the door because they think that is most effective in terms of what they are able to do at the moment, and a lot are still new players so they just follow the pack. If it ends up costing them too much, they'll probably just get dishearted and leave. If they could figure something out, they wouldn't be a zerg. The zerg only does two things: follow itself, follow the leader. If there's no leader, the zerg is not going to organize itself.

I.e., I don't think your solution will have the results you expect.

Furthermore, some situations are just losing situations. You just don't have the siege equipment or the manpower compared to the enemy and you can't really compensate. Home advantage exists precisely to permit reinforcements to come faster, and reinforcements are simply frequently dying people. Raising repair costs will hurt people in an already losing situation when they try to use that advantage, which basically means it's not an advantage anymore, and enemy players who are far into enemy territory can hurt the losing team further.

It doesn't make any sense.

What I don't understand is your issue with the zerg. The zerg is not supposed to be smart and never will be. Zergs follow leaders and sometimes metas, they don't do anything else. The leaders and other individual players do the thinking. There's nothing wrong with that setup or anything worth changing. Repair costs in WvW are, frankly, ridiculous.

What's wrong with people being stupid? OK, your enemy is stupid, so be smart. What appears to be the problem?

Edited by Iron Legionnaire, 05 September 2012 - 09:01 PM.

[Velron]

Hey hey when you're 80 repair costs aren't cheap, your perspective would be screwed if you're rich (and I know TL like to play the trading post so they can have tons of cash for WvW) Mine are over 3s for 1 death.  Might even be 4. I'm curious if it costs more when you have more exotics as well? I never paid much attention to costs then last night realized they were pretty expensive for me, good thing I don't rez zerg ever or I'd be broke.


I much prefer the idea that if you suck so bad that you say die, what's a good number - 5? times in an hour you get kicked and have to requeue so someone worth something to your side can get in.

[Kryptic57]

Putting in stiff penalties for poor performance in WvW isn't going to cause players to get better it is going to cause them to stop playing. It's not like the zerging server all got together and decided it would be great fun to die hopelessly for four hours. I'm sure they would much rather get organized and capture points but they lack the experience, resources, and leadership to do so.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[Soulstitchmmo]

Kryptic57, on 05 September 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

Putting in stiff penalties for poor performance in WvW isn't going to cause players to get better it is going to cause them to stop playing. It's not like the zerging server all got together and decided it would be great fun to die hopelessly for four hours. I'm sure they would much rather get organized and capture points but they lack the experience, resources, and leadership to do so.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Still winning if people stop playing, queues suck.

[DiscoCactuar]

Making WvW less accessible is not going to be healthy for the game long term.

[Soulstitchmmo]

DiscoCactuar, on 05 September 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

Making WvW less accessible is not going to be healthy for the game long term.

I disagree. What is best for WvW is what's best for healthy long term population. Obviously making everything casual has worked for no recent game. There needs to be real risk/reward. Real win/loss. Real consequences for actions. This is gone from modern MMO. There is no real penalty for death. Or even a zerg deterrant.

[Devinchi]

Isn't one of the main ideas behind WvW to help introduce people to PvP combat? Nobody would want to take that first step if you're trying to learn the ropes when the game itself tells you "You suck. Get better.", especially in a place as unstructured as WvW.  I don't know how anyone could think this is a good idea. If you wanna be all hardcore about it, go to sPvP.

[Soulstitchmmo]

Devinchi, on 05 September 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

Isn't one of the main ideas behind WvW to help introduce people to PvP combat? Nobody would want to take that first step if you're trying to learn the ropes when the game itself tells you "You suck. Get better.", especially in a place as unstructured as WvW.  I don't know how anyone could think this is a good idea. If you wanna be all hardcore about it, go to sPvP.

Maps are constantly queued through primetime. They can stand to have less people in line.

[Iron Legionnaire]

Soulstitchmmo, on 05 September 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

Maps are constantly queued through primetime. They can stand to have less people in line.

Or you can move to a low-pop server. Which will be very negatively affected by the changes you request. But you don't want that, easy-win is all you're looking for.

It all reeks of elitism. You seem unhappy that how dare some people just go at things directly while learning the game and are not all assembled in high-class guilds and everything. If everyone was like that, what would be the value of those high-class guilds, anyway? Some people are good, some people are not so good. That is the nature of WvW. The point of WvW is taking what you have and working with it. The point of high-class guilds is taking good players for free. I find the former far more impressive... Leaders are so lazy these days, like everything else. They just want to grab the ready and run with it. Nobody trains or tries to help anymore. Then they wonder why everyone is "bad". Wup.

Edited by Iron Legionnaire, 05 September 2012 - 09:53 PM.

[DiscoCactuar]

WvW needs players and actively discouraging them to play, especially on the grounds of poor performance, is a pretty sure way to turn WvW into a "hardcore guilds only" type of atmosphere. When there are no new players entering WvW the whole system is going to stagnate and die out.

There are many options to fix queue times. Discouraging players to enter WvW is one of the worst.

[Devinchi]

Soulstitchmmo, on 05 September 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

Maps are constantly queued through primetime. They can stand to have less people in line.

Who are you to decide that? Then people who are already pro at PvP or those that don't do anything until their boot timer resets will be the only ones to stay.  Sounds to me that you're mad you can't dominate WvW alongside all your TL members, and want an excuse to boot these "inferior" players to make room.  You sounding real elitist right now.

[Soulstitchmmo]

Stiffer death penalties, isn't elitsm. I'm sorry it's just not. You know what happens when you miss jumps in most jump puzzles? You have to start all over. You are penalized for your mistake.

There needs to be real penalities for death. There isn't a real penalty for death. It's not a barrier for entry, it's a barrier to not asking questions and a real stiff penalty puts the burden of effort on the novice player to ask for help so they don't die.

Have any of you ever raided? Or ever done an MMO dungeon? Do you call it elitism when a member of your group/raid won't learn the boss or pull their weight in a dungeon? Isn't in proper for you to say in group "I don't know this boss what are the mechanics." Do you want people to join your groups and just die until they learn it?

It's not called elitism when there are consequences for death in dungeons.

The same shouldn't be in WvW. If you are tired of dieing, ask for help. Don't "die until you learn it", ask for help and you'll get it. Put real consquences for death will only strengthen the wvw community because people will not just run around dieing.

[kitanas]

if you add a stiffer penalty for death, you discourage riskier activities. right now, I will dive into the middle of the zerg to knock someone off a ram. If that could get me kicked, I wouldn't do that.

[Reason on Cooldown]

Not sure we can compare raids with WvWvW.  Raids are high level content, usually with organized groups, with people who should know what they're getting into.  While teamwork in WvWvW is very important, in raids it's VITAL.  Raids are end game content for experienced players.  A level 1 player who just bought the game yesterday can get into WvWvW.

But as I read the OP, it sounds like even though the zerg was relentless, it ultimately failed....or at least allowed the defenders to farm a lot of kills before it began to succeed.  So it sounds like the punishment for zerging is that it takes you FOREVER to accomplish anything to the benefit of the opposing side.  Or did I misunderstand the situation?

[Devinchi]

Soulstitchmmo, on 05 September 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

Stiffer death penalties, isn't elitsm. I'm sorry it's just not. You know what happens when you miss jumps in most jump puzzles? You have to start all over. You are penalized for your mistake.

There needs to be real penalities for death. There isn't a real penalty for death. It's not a barrier for entry, it's a barrier to not asking questions and a real stiff penalty puts the burden of effort on the novice player to ask for help so they don't die.

Have any of you ever raided? Or ever done an MMO dungeon? Do you call it elitism when a member of your group/raid won't learn the boss or pull their weight in a dungeon? Isn't in proper for you to say in group "I don't know this boss what are the mechanics." Do you want people to join your groups and just die until they learn it?

It's not called elitism when there are consequences for death in dungeons.

The same shouldn't be in WvW. If you are tired of dieing, ask for help. Don't "die until you learn it", ask for help and you'll get it. Put real consquences for death will only strengthen the wvw community because people will not just run around dieing.

The difference is that in raids and dungeons, you have control of who's on your team.  If you've done a runthrough a million times with an elite force and don't want to take a first timer with you, you can make that choice.  If you take a guy that can't pull his own weight, you have the choice to kick him because it's YOUR group. It's hardcore, high-end content that can be managed entirely by you.

In WvW, it's not YOUR server. It's everyone's.  "King of WvW" has no more right to be on the map than "Average Zerging Joe"  In no situation should other players, pros, or even the game itself, keep players out of casual content because they're too "casual".

[Soulstitchmmo]

Devinchi, on 05 September 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

The difference is that in raids and dungeons, you have control of who's on your team.  If you've done a runthrough a million times with an elite force and don't want to take a first timer with you, you can make that choice.  If you take a guy that can't pull his own weight, you have the choice to kick him because it's YOUR group. It's hardcore, high-end content that can be managed entirely by you.

In WvW, it's not YOUR server. It's everyone's.  "King of WvW" has no more right to be on the map than "Average Zerging Joe"  In no situation should other players, pros, or even the game itself, keep players out of casual content because they're too "casual".

You are inventing a scenario where the game prevents players from joining. I have not suggested that. I have suggest real powerful death penalties. Actual consequences for mistakes to generate community and encourage players to ask for help and work together.

If players don't want to learn and the death penalty keeps them from queuing then so be it. That works out, it makes room for people who want to be there, who want to learn, who want to participate.

The entire community wins then.

[kitanas]

Soulstitchmmo, on 05 September 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

You are inventing a scenario where the game prevents players from joining. I have not suggested that. I have suggest real powerful death penalties. Actual consequences for mistakes to generate community and encourage players to ask for help and work together.

If players don't want to learn and the death penalty keeps them from queuing then so be it. That works out, it makes room for people who want to be there, who want to learn, who want to participate.

The entire community wins then.

if you are kicked out when there are ques, that means that you can't play WVW because you're "not good enough" think about what that means for a second.

It also discourages risky behavior. I would sometimes right through a zerg to get to a tower. if I thought that could get me kicked from WVW, I wouldn't do it.

[Takato]

Unfortunately, I don't see why you want to ruin a group of people's fun just so you can basically have more fun.
While you might want to make coordinated assaults, maybe the other 50 want to zerg and enjoy their time on wvw.
This is rather selfish in my opinion.

The bright side is, if X team is busy wiping Y zerg. Why not coordinate a small group ( or larger whatever ) and either sneak off the sides and cap stuff under their noses?

You can always use any situation and make it YOUR advantage, just gotta take initiative and do so.

[Kleenex]

I do agree that some form of heavier penalty should apply to player who has died x amount of time in a row. However making them re-que for WvW again is going to discourage player from WvW. especially if there is a high que time.

  You only need a few player to do something different and it will make the zerg player think differently. Example drop a Ram near a gate and you get player helping to build it, Arrow cart for defend and you get a couple of players will do the same.

War in game or RL you always need someone to give orders and direct people. The bigger guilds out there should be the one that should take charge and lead the way.