82 replies to this topic

[Majic]

First you said this...

fallot, on 05 September 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

I don't understand how another player character in a videogame can be "not so fortunate". I at least know that all these people can afford personal computers and leisure time to play videogames. Attempting idealism in a fake world is a bit absurd.

Now you're saying this...

fallot, on 05 September 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Listen, I know what point you're trying to make. I am fully aware that people don't change into something else when they play games. If you stop to consider it, that's MY POINT. I know the internet is real life, its not some "other dimension" or whatever. I appreciate the gesture, but please.

Whatever point you were trying to make has been lost in your own dissembling.

If you expect to label others as "absurd" for carrying their ideals into gaming, then protest when you're called on it, then that's absurd.

[Arewn]

I think they need to get rid of the "match lowest price" option, a lot of people will just blindly go in and spam it on each item they sell and next thing you know the TP is a place to go sell if you want to lose money.
I don't buy the whole "selling items cheap to those who have trouble getting them" stuff, item drops are plentiful in everything you do and easily craftable, and you are easily able to afford vendor gear if you really have nothing your level (and vendor gear is actually descent in this game). What's more if you really wanted to help people by giving them items, you'd just give them away for free in Map chat. Nobody is actually going in to the TP to do charity by selling items at vendor price, and if they think they actually are then they're fooling themselves or terribly mistaken.
It just riles me up that people can't mouse over an item before selling and say "oh this vendors for 95c, I probably shouldn't TP it for 94c"

[fallot]

Majic, on 06 September 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

First you said this...



Now you're saying this...



Whatever point you were trying to make has been lost in your own dissembling.

If you expect to label others as "absurd" for carrying their ideals into gaming, then protest when you're called on it, then that's absurd.

Please stop talking to me, not only have you not understood what I have said at all, you're doing some sort of wise sage thing that is ridiculously annoying. I would have been glad to explain a misunderstanding, but I have no patience for being deconstructed pointlessly.

Edited by fallot, 06 September 2012 - 12:46 AM.

[Teste]

Dabrixmgp, on 05 September 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

So everyone should play the way you want and if they like playing a different way then they are wrong?

As opposed to you and a few others like you playing the way you want to play and making the game worse for everyone else? I'm not going to ask your position in the ArenaNet team, since I'm rather sure no one there thinks like that.

[septhaka]

TP hasnt been up for some time.  People have been vendoring stuff because they are running out of space.  Now that TP is more or less up might as well TP for a bit more (though you'd think the listing fee would result in them netting less than vendor prices).

[Lootifer]

Teste, on 05 September 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

or by playing the market and increasing prices for everyone else, which definitely does not deserve a reward.

Heh, missed this little gem.

Wrong, playing the market in the context of GW2 is price neutral. The low barriers to entry and the highly liquid nature of the markets means market power manipulation or exploitation is effectively impossible.

Therefore the only real ways to "play the market" is margin trade or speculate (or a medium term hybrid of the two).

Margin trading does nothing to influence the price, it just collects a gold fee by matching buyers with sellers. Nothing is preventing the buyers and sellers themselves from doing the same, they just dont want to and sacrifice a little gold for the convienece of instant transactions.

Speculation will also have no impact on price. This is because the amount of product removed by speculation will always pale in comparison to the total volume of the market transactions; therefore the price will still be derived by natural demand/supply balance. Speculation will only potentially be a problem in the lower volume markets, but since there is a huge number of participants the laws of competition economics means even in low volume markets any manipulation will be rare and very short lived.

Edited by Lootifer, 06 September 2012 - 05:33 AM.

[Majic]

fallot, on 06 September 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

Please stop talking to me, not only have you not understood what I have said at all, you're doing some sort of wise sage thing that is ridiculously annoying. I would have been glad to explain a misunderstanding, but I have no patience for being deconstructed pointlessly.

Well hey, maybe I'm taking what you said the wrong way, and if I'm deconstructing you pointlessly, I'll be happy to apologize for that.

If you're willing to explain a misunderstanding on my part, I'm quite willing to hear it. If that's a problem, I'm happy to drop it as well, but starting off snarky and getting snarkier doesn't bolster your position or justify your comments.

[elerak]

LondonFires, on 05 September 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

Title says it all; you will make less profit after you factor in 5% list fee + 10% transaction fee. I really don't understand why people are doing this, why not just sell it to the NPC?

And we're not talking about a few odd-balls here, we're talking hundreds of 'lowest listed' sellers for more than half of the items I tried to sell.

Stupidity, laziness, or...? :|

I give the market a good couple weeks to even out (I hope...)

hrmm, how could they have obtained so much gold/items that they don't mind selling at stupid low prices. I can think of a reason.

[Dulu]

They're likely bots.

They sit and farm, and then just plop whatever they get on TP at the lowest listed price. The few copper they lose in situations like this is outweighed by the massive profits from botting.

[Eileithia]

You want to make some easy coin?  Buy crafted armor / accessories.. Salvage them.. and put the mats back up on the market.  I can't count how many times I've seen these items listed for less than the raw material costs.. in some cases, less than a single raw material.

Perfect example.  Last night I saw a Gold ring on the market for ~38c.  At that time Gold ore was going for ~42c.  It takes minimum 10 gold ore to make 1 ring (12 if it's green) plus a jewel.  Salvaging those items will sometimes give you 2 or more pieces of ore, and even the jewel.  You can literally tripple your money off these idiots who are undercutting on crafted items for the sake of undercutting and not looking at market values for mats.

[Brannigan73]

Fleshgrinder, on 05 September 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

It's not the goodness of our heart as much as an honest desire to manipulate the market in a way that will keep prices low for everyone.

I project my anarcho-libertarian ideals into the game world by monkeying around with the market mechanics.

My goal is to create a market where everything is cheap and easy to find, reducing demand, reducing the likelihood of someone with less community oriented ideals gaining a large market control and modifying the market for personal gain.

I wouldn't call that anarcho-libertarian thinking I would call that run of the mill socialist or communist thinking which is fine I just think you should understand your so called world view better.  A anarchist is basically for a lack of societal structure and chaos ie anrachy while a libertarian is generally for high levels of individual liberty.  Doing everything in the name of some kind of community doesn't really jive with either of those philsophies.

Edited by Brannigan73, 06 September 2012 - 08:39 PM.

[MattVid]

Arewn, on 06 September 2012 - 12:20 AM, said:

It just riles me up that people can't mouse over an item before selling and say "oh this vendors for 95c, I probably shouldn't TP it for 94c"

They are going, "oh this vendors for 95c, I will sell it for 96c, and then lose 15% on that." What people are doing is basically only 2c more stupid than what you said, lol. Either way, both are losing money.

I bought a full set of 65 gear last night, and simply vendoring it when I am done ... I will only lose about 15-20c. That is just silly

Edited by MattVid, 06 September 2012 - 08:43 PM.

[Fleshgrinder]

Brannigan73, on 06 September 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

I wouldn't call that anarcho-libertarian thinking I would call that run of the mill socialist or communist thinking which is fine I just think you should understand your so called world view better.  A anarchist is basically for a lack of societal structure and chaos ie anrachy while a libertarian is generally for high levels of individual liberty.  Doing everything in the name of some kind of community doesn't really jive with either of those philsophies.

Modern political theory disagrees with you. Left Libertarians are often known as Anarcho-Libertarians.

And Anarchy is not a system of chaos, it is simply a political ideology that states that the state is unnecessary.

An Anarcho-Libertarian has no desire for the state or capitalism/private property.

Where as a socialist believes everyone owns everything equally, and anarcho-libertarian believes that no own one anything and that the idea of ownership and private property in itself is a form of slavery.

http://en.wikipedia...._libertarianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

Education is your friend.

[Lootifer]

Please people: There is one main reason for min price listing:

You can empty your bags of crap while in the world without searching out a vendor.

Time/convienece is a very highly valuable commodity for the bulk of the player base, far more so than gold.

[malevolence]

haha people didn't realize the taxes for posting the item in the TP yet, they are losing money!

[Tallenn]

Eileithia, on 06 September 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

You want to make some easy coin?  Buy crafted armor / accessories.. Salvage them.. and put the mats back up on the market.  I can't count how many times I've seen these items listed for less than the raw material costs.. in some cases, less than a single raw material.

Perfect example.  Last night I saw a Gold ring on the market for ~38c.  At that time Gold ore was going for ~42c.  It takes minimum 10 gold ore to make 1 ring (12 if it's green) plus a jewel.  Salvaging those items will sometimes give you 2 or more pieces of ore, and even the jewel.  You can literally tripple your money off these idiots who are undercutting on crafted items for the sake of undercutting and not looking at market values for mats.

Hmm, might actually be a good way to farm gold ore for my own crafting.....

[RShara]

I personally am going with the bot theory.  It's not possible for every...single...item...to be sold that way.  There aren't that many generous people or that many stupid people, right?  Right???

[Tallenn]

There are a lot of stupid people out there.... (actually, it's probably more that people just don't bother to take the time to learn these things).

[DocR0ck]

Due to the nature of the TP (possibility to sell during adventuring, lowest price easy option, cheap crfting with no effort needed etc) and the amount of people using the TP - as it is not server based - I think it is highly unlikely that there wil ever be a situation where the prices stabilize. It is definately not because of people piling up there items at the moment and run out of bankspace.

Furthermore, you will only be able to influence the price in making items cheaper, doing that is actually fairly easy. You will not be able to make items more expensive because of the sheer mass of sellers.

Therefore the TP will never be so interesting as in other games where it is server based.

[RamzaBehoulve]

DocR0ck, on 09 September 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

Furthermore, you will only be able to influence the price in making items cheaper, doing that is actually fairly easy. You will not be able to make items more expensive because of the sheer mass of sellers.

Therefore the TP will never be so interesting as in other games where it is server based.

I love how you point out a "sheer mass of sellers", but make it sound like there is no "sheer mass of buyers".

The market can be manipulated just as well as other games. The only difference is how much starting money you need to make it happen due to the "sheer amount of people".

Edited by RamzaBehoulve, 09 September 2012 - 06:42 PM.

[DocR0ck]

The difference that you cannot outbuy a specific item. There are too many of them. You need a huge amount of money to manipulate the market. In a server based economy, you need a lot less and you can focus on niche products. There are no real niche products here, even the cheapest sword is sold 378 times now. And you are on your own, you are not a multinational corporation that can try to do such a thing. Crafting is easy in this game, everybody can do everything. There will always been plenty of items to buy, especially those from crafting.

I died a few times at my Lvl 50 Durmand Priory story quest a few minutes ago (awesome quest by the way..) and had a repair bill of 4s. I decided to just buy a complete new set from the TP, in a few levels I will sell them back to the vendor. do you want to know how much I paid for this set? 10 copper. Compared to 4 silver. The TP is completely broken and it will stay this way.

There will be an exception for dyes and Legendairies but that's it.

At least Anet need to get rid of a few things to help:
- remove the match lowest seller button
- make stuff only sellable from a TP vendor
- better explain the TP fees to people that do not read forums

This would help a little.

[lazykoala]

Both. People are stupid when they don't even look at the prices at all and just undercut the lowest seller by like 20 silver. People are also lazy when they just follow the last guy who undercutted by a ton and simply list things at his price or maybe even lower. It's still early though and most people don't understand the value of most items yet which is a good reason for people to buy stuff right now while it is low and wait till a year from now when it quadruples in value. It's like buying ectos when they were 1k each and then selling them a year later for 8k each.

[Arintal]

Fleshgrinder, on 05 September 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Worked in every MMO I've ever played with a trading post/AH.

Market manipulation is not hard in MMOs as no regulations exist. There are massive guides on this subject.

try eve online