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Elementalists, Dungeons, Aggro. A re-occuring problem?

elementalist dungeon instance dying

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#1 Windowlicker

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 01:14 AM

Let me preface this by saying that this isn't a whinge about the class, this is meant as a constructive and informative thread on players experiences during dungeons. If you've got a complaint about the class there are plenty of other threads floating around.

During my solo PvE gameplay i use D/D and D/F. I do fine with these combinations. Rolling into AC i've found that being anywhere in melee range will net you a nice AoE to the grill and plant you on the floor quicker than you can blink, so I switched out to S/D. I do great damage like this, as well offering great utility, but I find mobs have an insatiable appetite for my noggin.

After swapping between multiple combinations during dungeons I've realised that my perceived agro is far, far too high. Is agro based upon DPS, or because mobs AI know im an easy target?

As of the moment I've had to actively avoid doing guild dungeon runs ( :( ) because I spend the entire time on the floor, and racking up repair bills.

What are your experiences with dungeon aggro? How have you avoided it?

#2 Archguru

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 01:25 AM

I am actually unsure as to how the aggro mechanic works in this game, but...

...if it works anything like GW1, the mobs will aggro when players step into their radius.  They then make a decision to attack the person with the lowest HP and lowest armor.  In GW2, this will always be the elementalist.  The good news is that once they lock onto their target, they dont typically come off it unless that player drops.

So, if aggro works the same, you have to have your "tankiest" player step forward first alone to aquire aggro.  Other players need to stay ~15 feet back.  Once the mobs aggro on him, then the back line can step up and attack normally.

#3 Desild

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 01:33 AM

Here's an idea. Maybe every Elementalist should abandon the silly notion they have to specc like a glass cannon and start investing in toughness and vitality. And healing power while your at it too.

Had this trouble with an Elementalist during Sorrow's Embrace. The poor guy kept bitting the dust despite it all. He dished damage like a truck, I could tell. Most of the damage he dealt was because I sticked close to him to get him back up every time the mobs so much sneezed on him.

Dumping every trait point you have on Power and Precision is the dumbest thing you can do in this game. Neglecting gear with supportive stats like Vitality and Toughness is also pretty unwise.

I can't stress this enough. This is a game where flexibility is king, and the ability to adapt is queen. Consider gaining some bulk and you will see that despite the mobs not going down as fast as you wanted them to, you will find yourself surviving things which glass cannons don't normally survive against.

The problem here isn't the aggro. You WILL get aggro at some point or the other and there are no tanks to save you from it. Got aggro? Switch to earth and put your bulk into good use. Switch to water and get that health back up.

Edited by Desild, 06 September 2012 - 01:35 AM.


#4 Windowlicker

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 01:57 AM

View PostArchguru, on 06 September 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

I am actually unsure as to how the aggro mechanic works in this game, but...

...if it works anything like GW1, the mobs will aggro when players step into their radius.  They then make a decision to attack the person with the lowest HP and lowest armor.  In GW2, this will always be the elementalist.  The good news is that once they lock onto their target, they dont typically come off it unless that player drops.

So, if aggro works the same, you have to have your "tankiest" player step forward first alone to aquire aggro.  Other players need to stay ~15 feet back.  Once the mobs aggro on him, then the back line can step up and attack normally.

Thanks for that mate, would love some solid clarification on how it works!

View PostDesild, on 06 September 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

Here's an idea. Maybe every Elementalist should abandon the silly notion they have to specc like a glass cannon and start investing in toughness and vitality. And healing power while your at it too.

Had this trouble with an Elementalist during Sorrow's Embrace. The poor guy kept bitting the dust despite it all. He dished damage like a truck, I could tell. Most of the damage he dealt was because I sticked close to him to get him back up every time the mobs so much sneezed on him.

Dumping every trait point you have on Power and Precision is the dumbest thing you can do in this game. Neglecting gear with supportive stats like Vitality and Toughness is also pretty unwise.

I can't stress this enough. This is a game where flexibility is king, and the ability to adapt is queen. Consider gaining some bulk and you will see that despite the mobs not going down as fast as you wanted them to, you will find yourself surviving things which glass cannons don't normally survive against.

The problem here isn't the aggro. You WILL get aggro at some point or the other and there are no tanks to save you from it. Got aggro? Switch to earth and put your bulk into good use. Switch to water and get that health back up.

I'm specced into water earth and arcane, and my gear is all gemmed for vit / toughness. This didn't stop me getting damn near one shot by every mob, despite all utility skills being defensive. Unfortunately, that effectively removes my very functional method of switching to water for some control and regen.

Please, don't come into the thread with such an aggressive stance. Just because you've seen many other elementalists spec glass cannon, it doesn't mean I have. I consider my ability with the profession to be quite high, and I'm certainly not silly enough to think I can neglect my defense based traits and skills and think i can live. The problem here is that I'm very heavily specced for defense, and still get  one shot.

#5 Necro

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 02:46 AM

this is why i always have arcane shield, because as far as i know it blocks absolutely everything.

#6 scyld

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 02:53 AM

Aggro in GW2 works a LOT more like a traditional MMO than it did in GW1.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

Try to stay at max range. If everyone else is ranged too, then switch out your dagger for a longer ranged weapon, that is assuming your other party members can take the punishment more easily than you.

Edited by scyld, 06 September 2012 - 02:55 AM.


#7 LDM91

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 02:54 AM

This isn't going to help much, but why have you missed out on dungeon runs completely, and not just switched to staff temporarily if you're having such problems :X?

#8 Windowlicker

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 03:04 AM

View PostLDM91, on 06 September 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

This isn't going to help much, but why have you missed out on dungeon runs completely, and not just switched to staff temporarily if you're having such problems :X?

I've tried staff. I still manage to "pull" the entire pack, and have to resort to kiting them around constantly. Aside from staff not fixing the problem, I don't enjoy staff gameplay at all.

View Postscyld, on 06 September 2012 - 02:53 AM, said:

Aggro in GW2 works a LOT more like a traditional MMO than it did in GW1.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

Try to stay at max range. If everyone else is ranged too, then switch out your dagger for a longer ranged weapon, that is assuming your other party members can take the punishment more easily than you.

I understand, now. So realistically you want your tank(s) to take range, and deliver a few hits before stepping in to deal the damage. As soon as the plate wearers have been picking it up I've just been pummeling them with hits, and manage to pull them within a second or so. Thanks for the link.

#9 deathblossom

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 03:04 AM

some monsters dont follow the same aggro rules... i know for a fact that some of the ghostly elementalists in the branded/charr areas will randomly fire spells off at random people and not stick to a single target for too long.

#10 Windowlicker

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 03:06 AM

View Postdeathblossom, on 06 September 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

some monsters dont follow the same aggro rules... i know for a fact that some of the ghostly elementalists in the branded/charr areas will randomly fire spells off at random people and not stick to a single target for too long.

I observed this as well, but didn't know if it was an aggro mechanic, or merely a way of making people more involved by applying some damage to them.

#11 draxynnic

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 03:11 AM

From memory, the ghostly elementalists have the "Unpredictable" characteristic - which might mean that their aggro mechanic is exactly that.
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#12 masterloup

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 04:31 AM

View PostDesild, on 06 September 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

Here's an idea. Maybe every Elementalist should abandon the silly notion they have to specc like a glass cannon and start investing in toughness and vitality. And healing power while your at it too.

Had this trouble with an Elementalist during Sorrow's Embrace. The poor guy kept bitting the dust despite it all. He dished damage like a truck, I could tell. Most of the damage he dealt was because I sticked close to him to get him back up every time the mobs so much sneezed on him.

Dumping every trait point you have on Power and Precision is the dumbest thing you can do in this game. Neglecting gear with supportive stats like Vitality and Toughness is also pretty unwise.

I can't stress this enough. This is a game where flexibility is king, and the ability to adapt is queen. Consider gaining some bulk and you will see that despite the mobs not going down as fast as you wanted them to, you will find yourself surviving things which glass cannons don't normally survive against.

The problem here isn't the aggro. You WILL get aggro at some point or the other and there are no tanks to save you from it. Got aggro? Switch to earth and put your bulk into good use. Switch to water and get that health back up.

Yeah, i bet nobody ever thought of that. However because the ele's health AND armor are so freaking low, You're either a glass cannon who deal damage and die or a tank who deal shit damage and survive(barely). If you go 50/50 you'll get 2 shoted instead of 1 shoted and you'll still deal shit damage with your <10% crit chance

for pve i have 30 earth/15 vit. i stack pretty much every stats, my armor are rare(80) and my staff is exotic. I have 1600 armor and 14.8k health. That's about what a warrior have at 65 wth green gear

An ele who stack toughness/vit is about as tanky as most other profession who stack power/precision except the thief but the thief's damage is high enough for them to stack tough/vit without reducing their damage to /lol level

Edited by masterloup, 06 September 2012 - 06:55 AM.


#13 Katreyn

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 06:04 AM

I don't have any trait points in Earth (10 Fire/20 Air/10 Water/30Arcane), but I have Earth signet and full melandru set (dolyak works too); I traded the trait points for this imo.  And I seem to have better survivability then anyone else I've done dungeons with, with a staff of course.  Only time I seriously get aggro from a monster 1v1 is when everyone else was down.  Not saying its the best idea, but if you struggle with having low hp and want to withstand a couple mistakes its worth trading other stats for, especially if you want to support any.

That said, I've been debating on whether to get some trait points in Earth.  But so far, I'm not really seeing the need with the runes I'm using.  

My damage is pretty good, wouldn't say amazing but it gets the job done, but other then the melandru set I don't stack vit with anything else.  Been using beserker gems in trinkets and such.  

I think it honestly helps not to go full out force at the very beginning of a pull, start out slow.  Throw in support spells, you have a couple slows so you can keep stuff off you and your ranged companions.  

I really honestly can't say how to come at this from a D/D perspective.  I'd say its possible, with the right group.  Being melee obviously requires you to be more on guard then ranged.  With that you are playing the squishiest class in the most dangerous range.  Take that what you will.  I'd say just try to practice more with you D/D if thats what you enjoy and come up with plans in your mind for how to deal with when you get aggro.  Practice on Veteran/Champion mobs during events and with friends/other players (sure they are a lot dumber then most dungeon mobs, but they usually hit just as hard).  

Just my two cents.  :/

Edited by Katreyn, 06 September 2012 - 06:12 AM.


#14 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 06:51 AM

View PostDesild, on 06 September 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

Here's an idea. Maybe every Elementalist should abandon the silly notion they have to specc like a glass cannon and start investing in toughness and vitality. And healing power while your at it too.

Had this trouble with an Elementalist during Sorrow's Embrace. The poor guy kept bitting the dust despite it all. He dished damage like a truck, I could tell. Most of the damage he dealt was because I sticked close to him to get him back up every time the mobs so much sneezed on him.

Dumping every trait point you have on Power and Precision is the dumbest thing you can do in this game. Neglecting gear with supportive stats like Vitality and Toughness is also pretty unwise.

I can't stress this enough. This is a game where flexibility is king, and the ability to adapt is queen. Consider gaining some bulk and you will see that despite the mobs not going down as fast as you wanted them to, you will find yourself surviving things which glass cannons don't normally survive against.

The problem here isn't the aggro. You WILL get aggro at some point or the other and there are no tanks to save you from it. Got aggro? Switch to earth and put your bulk into good use. Switch to water and get that health back up.

Yeah, 100% of eles spec glass cannon.

Here's an idea. Maybe you get off your high horse and think about that most eles actually do NOT spec glass cannon. But even with toughness and extra vitality ele bites the dust faster than a bullet.

#15 Necro

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:04 AM

my problem is while leveling up i find it hard to decide when i have enough dmg and when to take vit, not as big of a problem once u hit 80 tho.

#16 Anam Itheoir

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 03:55 PM

I run a D/D build, and I die less than just about everyone not a Ranger in my guild.  Granted it helps that I spent the first 30 levels as water and air before realizing neither of those were good for blowing things up heh.  I run a utility/support build though I have wanted to try a signet build.  The key to staying alive is knowing when to move in and when to get out. Never be the first guy in the fight.  Strike hard, fast, and then get out quickly (600 yards or more).  I always keep frost bow on hand, dropping it for some regeneration than firing away at 900m. While working on attunement swapping to maximize buffs. When all buffs are up, I use an arcane ability or glyph depending on fight. I try to end on fire or earth.  Use skill 3 to rush back in hit the guy with a few abilities swapping to air or earth for stun or kb, than to water for a slow or armor, and to cleanse and get my regeneration back rolling.  Than you dodge out, pick the bow back up and fire away.

The key when in melee range is only get close when you are in earth, the rest of the time stay 400m away and never stop moving.

I am a member of the Order of Whispers.  I bide my time, strike the opportune moment, hit fast and hard, and then get out in a puff of smoke/mist.

Edited by Anam Itheoir, 06 September 2012 - 03:56 PM.


#17 marshmalloww

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 06:21 PM

I'm level 80 with around 16k health, I don't have my armor fully runed xD I have 30 water 10 fire 10 air and 20 arcana. I also take about the elementals so I'm not the only target when I'm running around s:

I also have a question, what runes do you think would work well for an ele? I mainly stick to staff.. I also have no idea what attirbutes to look for in armor, I was thinking vitality, healing and power (or toughness ? )

As for dungeon aggro, I generally stay as far back as I can , I do get agrro'd on quite a bit, but I switch to earth and slap the unsteady ground down c: I also bring mist form, if I feel I'm takign too much damage I'll mist form and dodge back then switch to water and put Healing Rain down for any members infront of me

I hope this helps

#18 Anam Itheoir

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 06:34 PM

View Posttrishietehfishie, on 06 September 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

I also have a question, what runes do you think would work well for an ele? I mainly stick to staff.. I also have no idea what attirbutes to look for in armor, I was thinking vitality, healing and power (or toughness ? )


Healing power and precision for water builds tends to work well. Vitality is better than toughness because no matter how much toughness you get you will still be far below everyone else.  

Water = Healing Power/Precision/Vitatlity
Fire = Power/Precision/Vitality/Condition
Earth = Condition damage/Vitality/Power
Air = Precision/Power/Vitality

I have yet to see or try to use Air as a main spec.  However based on their talents, and abilities these are the runes that make the most sense for each main build. Water and Air main builds can ignore Condition Damage.  I run a hybrid build and don't even touch condition damage since I am only in fire and earth for a little bit of time before swapping to earth or water and then back again.

#19 AMradio

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 07:20 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 06 September 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:

Yeah, 100% of eles spec glass cannon.

Here's an idea. Maybe you get off your high horse and think about that most eles actually do NOT spec glass cannon. But even with toughness and extra vitality ele bites the dust faster than a bullet.

Ikr?  People don't understand 30 points in earth will only give you 300 toughness.  And none of the traits will increase your survivability except for the armor of earth trait, which has a 90 second cooldown, and only reduces incoming dmg for like..8 seconds.  Moving on.  300 toughness wont do much of anything.  Thats a drop in the bucket.

Water is good because it adds more health.  But if you max water you get maybe 1-2k more hp..I forget exactly how much.  The traits are MUCH better for your survivability, but it only gives you like 5 more hits to survive.

Basically water/earth speccing isnt the problem, its gearing.  Most don't heavy gear in survival stats cuz their dmg would suck.  Thats why Ele usually only has a few options for things like dungeons: support condition dmg, or hit and run spike dmg.  I prefer support condition dmg, since its much easier to do without your dmg suffering or your survivability sucking.

10 points in earth for the bleed duration, 30 points in fire for the might stacks, 20 in arcane for the boons and larger staff aoe, and 10 in air for Quick Glyphs.  This is obviously a pure condition dmg build, which basically consists of spamming Eruption, Glyph of Elemental Power, Lava Font/Flame Burst/Meteor Shower.  My heals suck but I drop healing rain anyway and let ppl blast all day in it.  Full Carrion set (power/condition dmg/vitality) gives me a lot more survivability without hurting my dmg much at all.  So what I can't crit, gotta give up *something*.

Alternatively you can use water and air for heal crits.  I prefer conditions though.  Or you can do a jack of all trades kinda thing where you have heals, health, and condition dmg...but you probably would have to sacrifice power.

Edited by AMradio, 06 September 2012 - 07:23 PM.


#20 Murmer

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 07:39 PM

View PostAnam Itheoir, on 06 September 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

I run a D/D build, and I die less than just about everyone not a Ranger in my guild.  Granted it helps that I spent the first 30 levels as water and air before realizing neither of those were good for blowing things up heh.  I run a utility/support build though I have wanted to try a signet build.  The key to staying alive is knowing when to move in and when to get out. Never be the first guy in the fight.  Strike hard, fast, and then get out quickly (600 yards or more).  I always keep frost bow on hand, dropping it for some regeneration than firing away at 900m. While working on attunement swapping to maximize buffs. When all buffs are up, I use an arcane ability or glyph depending on fight. I try to end on fire or earth.  Use skill 3 to rush back in hit the guy with a few abilities swapping to air or earth for stun or kb, than to water for a slow or armor, and to cleanse and get my regeneration back rolling.  Than you dodge out, pick the bow back up and fire away.

The key when in melee range is only get close when you are in earth, the rest of the time stay 400m away and never stop moving.

I am a member of the Order of Whispers.  I bide my time, strike the opportune moment, hit fast and hard, and then get out in a puff of smoke/mist.

Finally a D/D elementalist that is doing it right.

You're right about that. Though if you want to have a bit of silly fun. Conjure hammer and run into a bunch of mobs and get that stun in on them. And watch every class' nearby jaw drop as you kill 3-4 mobs at once with not a single point lost to your health. But that's when I'm having fun.

You're ideals are *exactly* on par. I'm curious as to what stats you're focusing on though. I've been slowly gearing a bit into vitality. Also, if you're going signets, go 30 in earth to grab the thing that allows the signet passive to stay active after you cast it. Maybe 30 fire, 30 earth, and 10 Air. That's just me spit-balling though.

#21 planemo

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:28 PM

View PostMurmer, on 06 September 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Finally a D/D elementalist that is doing it right.

You're ideals are *exactly* on par. I'm curious as to what stats you're focusing on though. I've been slowly gearing a bit into vitality. Also, if you're going signets, go 30 in earth to grab the thing that allows the signet passive to stay active after you cast it. Maybe 30 fire, 30 earth, and 10 Air. That's just me spit-balling though.

I agree. I'd love to know you build and stat prioritization Anam.
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#22 Anam Itheoir

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:39 PM

View PostMurmer, on 06 September 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Finally a D/D elementalist that is doing it right.

You're right about that. Though if you want to have a bit of silly fun. Conjure hammer and run into a bunch of mobs and get that stun in on them. And watch every class' nearby jaw drop as you kill 3-4 mobs at once with not a single point lost to your health. But that's when I'm having fun.

You're ideals are *exactly* on par. I'm curious as to what stats you're focusing on though. I've been slowly gearing a bit into vitality. Also, if you're going signets, go 30 in earth to grab the thing that allows the signet passive to stay active after you cast it. Maybe 30 fire, 30 earth, and 10 Air. That's just me spit-balling though.

Thanks, I love the elementalist. I have wanted to try "Main" Attunement builds, but found them boring.  I am not 80 yet but I enjoy doing testing at the mist.  I leveled a guardian to 52 with a rank 9 or 10 in sPvP before dropping the guardian (much to my guild's chagrin) and restarting with an elementalist.  I am level 40 in 2 days with a job (cooking = win).  I never go anywhere without a food buff and a potion buff.  My gm thought it was not going to be as easy with a Elementalist, and our guild ranger was stating, "No we want him!! He makes us stronger!"

I will freely admit in WvWvW I run staff - it's just too easy to wipe out zergs with a ranger, Elementalist, and Engineer bombing away.  Our warrior just leaps in while we bomb with slows and drops 100 blades and laughs.

My stat priorities are Power - Precision - Vitality - Healing Power - Crit/Condition Damage - Toughness, in that order.

Here is my proposed Builds each step of the way.


- I swap out Zephyr's boon for Quick Glyphs sometimes, but Zephyr's boon is very very nice.  I swap out Mist Form for Glyph of Renewal or Glyph of Storms or Glyph of Elemental Power on boss fights.  Losing Mist form before that is just a bad idea and Mist form is a life saver in soloing

40 D/D Build - I will swap out Cleansing Wave for Vital Striking when soloing

60 D/D Build - Inscription plus Soothing wave plus Zephyr's Boon plus Elemental Attunement = unending buffs.

80 D/D Build 1 - Not a fan of anymore than 15 in Arcane, but this one makes sense and gives me some boost in damage

80 D/D Build 2 - With Cleansing Water and weak spot, I can drop cleansing wave for Piercing shards and stay in water attunement more often.  The bonus is conjure weapons gain whatever spell buff you have for that  attunement.

80 D/D build 3 - This is the one I lean to the most though I don't think the 5 percent increase in damage to bleeding targets is worth the loss of Cleansing Water.  

As you can see those last ten points are a bugger.

Edited by Anam Itheoir, 06 September 2012 - 09:53 PM.






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