128 replies to this topic

[TimeBomb]

Hi everyone. I'd like to talk about the reasons behind some people's concerns and complaints regarding repetition and how, on a very much so related manner, this game is not your average, generic MMORPG.

Guild Wars 2 is a MMORPG that notably has an essentially flat leveling curve. That being said, there are numerous ways as to which you can gain EXP and level up.
I feel that a big problem - bigger than I initially expected - is the lack of progression (PvE specifically).

Whether I'm leveling from 30 to 31 or 65 to 66, there doesn't seem to be much difference. I am playing the game in a very similar manner either way, and don't have much to aim for, aside perhaps from wanting to adventure in Orr.
But... that's what ArenaNet wanted. They didn't want end game to feel like a different game. They wanted to break away from the norm - to make Guild Wars 2 to play like one game from start to end - which is not the MMORPG norm, which it does indeed.
Therein lies the problem. I believe that many, if not most MMO players are not used to this lack of progression and arguable lack of what we know/expect to be end game.

On top of ArenaNet not wanting the end game to be a completely different game, there is a noticeable overall lack of progression. Thus there is little to no reason to level up.
Expect - to play and enjoy the game. And that's what you have to do. I don't think a lot of people are used to the idea that Guild Wars 2 tries to bring to the MMORPG genre. I feel that many of us expect to play the game just so we can.. play the (end) game.

When I first started playing GW2 at early release, I was playing it like a normal MMORPG. It wasn't until my mid 50s that I noticed I wasn't really aiming for anything, I wasn't really progressing- and I wasn't all that happy about that.
After noticing that, my leveling speed and overall will to play slowed down noticeably. Mind you, part of that is due to the fact that I forcefully limited my playtime in Guild Wars 2 (I was playing too much for my own good; I had more important things to do that I was pushing off constantly).

I realized that Guild Wars 2 is not your run-of-the-mill MMORPG - not just because of the excellent pile of features it has - but because it's a GAME.
Yes, Guild Wars 2 is a game. But wait, you already knew that, right? ...Maybe not. Once I started playing Guild Wars 2 more like I would many other co-op RPGs, rather than just as a MMORPG, I noticed that I was enjoying myself more. I sort of felt like I was actually playing Guild Wars 2 "right".

Getting max level and getting the best loot isn't everything - not in Guild Wars 2. Guild Wars 2 is an excellent game from multiple perspectives, and I think that many people who are claiming that the game is repetitive or has other progression-related issues would enjoy themselves more if they tried playing the game with a mindset that this is not your run-of-the-mill MMORPG, but this is actually a good role playing game.
Though, that does mean that Guild Wars 2 is very much so not for everybody. There was a reason that someone from ArenaNet once said that (paraphrasing) they'd be okay if you play Guild Wars 2 alongside another MMORPG.

Guild Wars 2 isn't just a "casual" MMORPG. It's also a great game. Understandably, that may not be what many people were expecting nor what they want.

[Kyln]

I guess my lack of really playing "traditional" MMOs really helped me here. GW2 seems much closer to what I expected than seems to be the case with many players who are coming here after years in a different MMO.

I have always liked games where it felt like I was playing to see the story, new places, etc., more so than to just get new items or overpowered skills. I do enjoy getting new and better things, but vertical progression has never been much of an interest for me. I figured a well tuned game would increase in difficulty as I gained better gear, thus the game would stay the same difficulty at least if not get harder despite the increasing items and abilities of my character.

[Misce]

TimeBomb, on 06 September 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

Hi everyone. I'd like to talk about the reasons behind some people's concerns and complaints regarding repetition and how, on a very much so related manner, this game is not your average, generic MMORPG.

-- snip --

Friend, the problem is that the game is boring. Just because ANet made that conscious decision from the very start doesn't make it ok.

Edited by unraveled, 06 September 2012 - 09:35 AM.
No need to quote the whole thing.

[Eliirae]

Misce, on 06 September 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

Friend, the problem is that the game is boring. Just because ANet made that conscious decision from the very start doesn't make it ok.

How?  Your one opinion is just that: your one opinion.

Maybe you'd like it better in a WoW based game where you grind through something that isn't even considered a game to most people (the leveling up part) so you can run dungeons over and over and over to get the best gear possible, only to do it all again when a new expansion comes out.

That's just how I see it.  When someone tries to mistake their own opinion that the game is "boring" as a fact, it's usually because they don't know how to put into words how they feel about it.  Or they feel that saying they like other MMOs because you can raid the same dungeon over and over and over for no real reward will make them sound silly.

Also because you try to dismiss a guy's huge post that took effort to make with one little sentence.

Edited by Eliirae, 06 September 2012 - 07:25 AM.

[Lady Rhonwyn]

I wonder...  Those people that find the game boring, how do you go on holiday?  Is the trip to going from A to B just as important as just being at B or is it just a nuisance because only B is important?

When I go on holiday, as soon as I close the door behind me, I'm enjoying my holiday.  I'll enjoy the trip.  Actually, the longer the trip, the better!  I prefer going by car or train so I can watch where I'm going.  I also prefer not going more than 300-500km each day so I will have plenty of time to stop on the way to watch the sights.

That's exactly how I'm playing Guild Wars 2.  I know I'll get to Orr one day.   But that's only a destination.  And the trip to that destinations is a lot more important to me.  Which is why I won't use portals or waypoints.  I'm in no hurry getting there.  And if I see a nice location, I might hang around there for a day or two, before going on.   I'm not bored at all, even though I've only seen 3 areas and 2 towns on my main (she's 36 now) and only part of the starter areas for the other races.

[nahla]

Misce, on 06 September 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

Friend, the problem is that the game is boring. Just because ANet made that conscious decision from the very start doesn't make it ok.

We all have our opinion of boring, I guess. Personally I find games that are about gear grind to be FAR more boring than GW2. Grind endlessly for a piece of gear...feel good about it for an hour...then time to grind endlesly for the next piece. To me, THAT is boring.

[Yumiya]

I think the game suits me fine. I dread the day I'm capped and in the possession of the best gear. Because then what? That's the thing I find boring about MMO's. What else is there to do? Explored everything, beat the bosses. The surprise is gone. The wonder of seeing a specific area for the first time, the joy of beating that boss for the first time.
So I'm never in a hurry. I make sure I see whatever I want to see, finish all the quests in the zone before I leave to another. I'm ever curious about the new zone, how it looks and what adventures await me. For me, it's really the journey that counts, while I don't care all that much about destination in this case.

I don't think Guild Wars 2 is boring at all. I've participated several times in the same events, and I don't mind. The heart events might be somewhat similar, but the setting and story is always (a little) different. I've played Silkroad Online for a couple of years. Now THAT game was boring. No story or whatsoever, the quests were uninspired and dull, and extremely repetitive. And then the grinding to the cap, paused only if you had to farm for weeks straight to gather enough skillpoints so your skill could match up your level. I'm sure that anyone who played that game long enough will never think GW2 is boring, so in the end I'm actually glad I played that abomination of a MMO so that I may enjoy everything else that at least tries not to be repetitive.

[Misce]

Eliirae, on 06 September 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

How?  Your one opinion is just that: your one opinion.

Maybe you'd like it better in a WoW based game where you grind through something that isn't even considered a game to most people (the leveling up part) so you can run dungeons over and over and over to get the best gear possible, only to do it all again when a new expansion comes out.

That's just how I see it.  When someone tries to mistake their own opinion that the game is "boring" as a fact, it's usually because they don't know how to put into words how they feel about it.  Or they feel that saying they like other MMOs because you can raid the same dungeon over and over and over for no real reward will make them sound silly.

Also because you try to dismiss a guy's huge post that took effort to make with one little sentence.

It's not my one opinion. Take a look at the forums - it's swamped with complaints.

[Heart Collector]

The OP basically seems to have read my mind, and put my thoughts in a nutshell. Great post!

I'll also add this: You know GW2 is special when even a hardcore soloer like me wants other people playing alongside him In WoW and TOR I wanted to be left alone. Here I love seeing other people in the world and helping them out. The fact that grouping in the open world just happens naturally removes the feeling I get in other MMOs that I'm forced to group. It just happens, and it's awesome - you don't feel inclined to make polite conversation or anything, it will just happen naturally - and even if it doesn't you still don't feel like the "socially awkward penguin" of the group. Everyone's there for a common goal, they're working together - no words are even needed.

Misce, on 06 September 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

It's not my one opinion. Take a look at the forums - it's swamped with complaints.

Yeah. It's still an opinion. To which we are all entitled.

What we're not entitled to, is ruining the joy others are taking in the game and sharing on the forums by constantly posting negative things about the game. You people want to bash the game? Fine. But please, take it somewhere else than the fansites or the official forums. Go bash the game all you like over at Battlenet, SWTOR.com or wherever you came from. We come here to share our excitement and experiences in the game, ask about issues, and yeah, make the occasional complaint, not to annoy others. It's like me as a non smoker marching into a smoker section and griping at them for smoking.

EDIT: Or at least restrict it to the "what you DON'T like about GW2" thread.

Edited by Heart Collector, 06 September 2012 - 08:13 AM.

[Misce]

Heart Collector, on 06 September 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

The OP basically seems to have read my mind, and put my thoughts in a nutshell. Great post!

I'll also add this: You know GW2 is special when even a hardcore soloer like me wants other people playing alongside him In WoW and TOR I wanted to be left alone. Here I love seeing other people in the world and helping them out. The fact that grouping in the open world just happens naturally removes the feeling I get in other MMOs that I'm forced to group. It just happens, and it's awesome - you don't feel inclined to make polite conversation or anything, it will just happen naturally - and even if it doesn't you still don't feel like the "socially awkward penguin" of the group. Everyone's there for a common goal, they're working together - no words are even needed.



Yeah. It's still an opinion. To which we are all entitled to.

What we're not entitled to, is ruining the joy others are taking in the game and sharing on the forums by constantly posting negative things about the game. You people want to bash the game? Fine. But please, take it somewhere else than the fansites or the official forums. Go bash the game all you like over at Battlenet, SWTOR.com or wherever you came from. We come here to share our excitement and experiences in the game, ask about issues, and yeah, make the occasional complaint, not to annoy others. It's like me as a non smoker marching into a smoker section and griping at them for smoking.

This is not a fan site my Greek friend. Make one and go knock yourselves out having orgasms about GW2. This is a place for criticism as well, especially if it's aimed towards making the game better. And let me tell you right now - it could use TONS and TONS of improvements, most of which are essential really.

EDIT: having one single opinion is one thing, an isolated issue. Having so many complaints is an indicator something is seriously wrong.

Edited by Misce, 06 September 2012 - 08:14 AM.

[Bloggi]

TimeBomb, on 06 September 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

Hi everyone. I'd like to talk about the reasons behind some people's concerns and complaints regarding repetition and how, on a very much so related manner, this game is not your average, generic MMORPG.

Guild Wars 2 is a MMORPG that notably has an essentially flat leveling curve. That being said, there are numerous ways as to which you can gain EXP and level up.
I feel that a big problem - bigger than I initially expected - is the lack of progression (PvE specifically).

Whether I'm leveling from 30 to 31 or 65 to 66, there doesn't seem to be much difference...

...On top of ArenaNet not wanting the end game to be a completely different game, there is a noticeable overall lack of progression. Thus there is little to no reason to level up.

If this is the reason why being in a new area is always very challenging at the start, then the system is definitely working. I'm very hopeful that the game will go on to last forever (ie. there is no end game), at least until GW3 is out, because I lament the day when the game is well and truly 'finished'.

[Heart Collector]

Misce, on 06 September 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

This is not a fan site my Greek friend. Make one and go knock yourselves out having orgasms about GW2. This is a place for criticism as well, especially if it's aimed towards making the game better. And let me tell you right now - it could use TONS and TONS of improvements, most of which are essential really.

EDIT: having one single opinion is one thing, an isolated issue. Having so many complaints is an indicator something is seriously wrong.

I don't disagree with you about complaints mate. Which is why I don't say anything in threads like "underwater combat makes me want to tear my hair out" (just saw this). I do have my own issues with the game anyway.

What I don't like is when every time a positive, happy thread pops up, someone, usually the same people, will poke their noses in and derail the thread with negativity. I respect everyone's opinion and don't like posting stuff like "leave the forums" (I have no right to tell others what to do anyway). I just can't stand it it when positive threads, meant for people who are having fun, get derailed with negativity.

And to be fair: I also hate it when threads with good, healthy criticism get bashed by fanboys either. I have seen a number of wonderful critical threads get shot by overly defensive, sometimes even blinded, fanboys. If I post there, I will not shoot down the OP for criticizing the game and I will post my appreciation for them taking the time to put the post together.

Hope I made myself clear

[tankzipit22]

you will always see more complaints online than anything. its what people do. but you know what. it does not matter. in my opinion. i just really love the zones. and im excited to go to another one. awesome content. cooler looking gear. fun fights that are challenging. this game offers more for your money than any other game. that right there is barely opinion. its just true. so much to do. some people will never be happy. and im sorry. that's sad. im close to not even reading these posts anymore. most of it is just depressing. not sure what's expected anymore. but i can almost guarantee if wow never excited. and came out tomorrow. would not even be close to as popular. but i guess we are in a different time now. oh well

[Menlai]

I think the main problem for Anet is simply content, they have a lot of unused zones in guild wars 2, some that many of us miss from Gw1 (f/e Southern Shiverpeaks), my proposal to prevent this problem would be to use these zones as "Elite" zones, so the game doesn't differ totally from the start game, but gives hardcore progressionists something to aim for, These zones would offer bigger rewards for dynamic events due to the much harsher nature of them, also add special tokens to the events, similar to the dungeon tokens, in order to buy specific sets of armor. It would take alot of doing, but it would definitely give the progressionists alot to do seeing as there is atleast 3 zones left on the Tyrian map for this to happen, 3 Hard mode zones which could be cleared, farmed, grinded through for gear, I know it's not necessarily in Arenanet's ethos for the game, but I think it would add the best of both worlds, and who says later expansions couldn't add more, as we don't know how future expansions will work (will they be 80 level content (which I believe they should be) or will they start from 0) These zones could be gw2's equivalent to FoW/UW, they aren't part of the primary storyline but they are elite areas with set bosses none the less.

[Arquenya]

nahla, on 06 September 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

We all have our opinion of boring, I guess. Personally I find games that are about gear grind to be FAR more boring than GW2. Grind endlessly for a piece of gear ... feel good about it for an hour...then time to grind endlesly for the next piece. To me, THAT is boring.

Not having any substantal gear grind doesn't necessarily make or break a game.

GW2 is a good game. But saying it's better or more enjoyable than GW: prophecies .. thus far I'd say no.
But I'm not lvl 80 yet though.

Misce, on 06 September 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

This is not a fan site my Greek friend. Make one and go knock yourselves out having orgasms about GW2. This is a place for criticism as well, especially if it's aimed towards making the game better. And let me tell you right now - it could use TONS and TONS of improvements, most of which are essential really.

EDIT: having one single opinion is one thing, an isolated issue. Having so many complaints is an indicator something is seriously wrong.

I have to agree with this. I never understood what's wrong with being critical. Especially if some improvements are really very obvious. The world isn't just black and white. There's always room for improvement.

Edited by Arquenya, 06 September 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[Kalameet]

Misce, on 06 September 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

It's not my one opinion. Take a look at the forums - it's swamped with complaints.

But you realize that people who are bored or don't like the games are mostly the only ones who post in forums and start bitching around?
No one, or at least very few people who are enjoying the game will actually come to a forum and tell you about it.
But you are right, the game has some issues but I personally think that the fun it gave me is that good and badass that I can overlook most of the things (except the &!%"$ undead as "end-game" enemies....)

[Misce]

Heart Collector, on 06 September 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

I don't disagree with you about complaints mate. Which is why I don't say anything in threads like "underwater combat makes me want to tear my hair out" (just saw this). I do have my own issues with the game anyway.

What I don't like is when every time a positive, happy thread pops up, someone, usually the same people, will poke their noses in and derail the thread with negativity. I respect everyone's opinion and don't like posting stuff like "leave the forums" (I have no right to tell others what to do anyway). I just can't stand it it when positive threads, meant for people who are having fun, get derailed with negativity.

And to be fair: I also hate it when threads with good, healthy criticism get bashed by fanboys either. I have seen a number of wonderful critical threads get shot by overly defensive, sometimes even blinded, fanboys. If I post there, I will not shoot down the OP for criticizing the game and I will post my appreciation for them taking the time to put the post together.

Hope I made myself clear

You are clear. Just one thing: this isn't a Saturday night out where some buddies got together for a good time, when some party-pooper showed up and killed their buzz. People who want a good time in a game should look for it there - in a game. People who want to say/read only good things about the game should be done on the fan sites.

Since we have no official forums yet this is the next best thing. No one posts criticism here just to make the game look bad. If I, for instance, was completely not interested in GW2 I wouldn't at all be here, not even to post criticism. I feel very let down by GW2 and I post here almost every day, together with other people who think alike, in hope someone at ANet will make notice of our complaints and do something about it.

The flame war starts when fanbois appear, somehow insulted by criticism, and then shit hits the fan. The point is if they like the game fine, go play the game. If you want a fan site fine, go visit one, but THIS is NO FAN SITE. It's GW2 forums and constructive criticism is more than welcome. May any of the moderators correct me if I'm wrong.

So again, I'm sorry to spoil your happy mood about GW2 but there are things seriously lacking there and I want them fixed. That's why I post here.

[dockrama89]

The problem about MMORPG is that most people see it as a MMO but not su much as a RPG. I'm really enjoying GW2, it's not boring if you don't want it to be, if you play the storyline, craft a bit, go help people (hearts) and most importantly UNDERSTAND WHY these people need your help. Roleplay a bit, don't just play, don't go killing everything looking for loot, just watch what's happening around you. By the way I see a lot of people saying that DEs are zergfests: that's kinda true, but that's not entirely Anet's fault. If you have to defend a position, why do people just go outside of that position looking for the army that's coming just to kill them even before they get near the DE area? Roleplay: if Sir XYZ said "defend this position", you just defend, don't go killing everything. And maybe sometimes the army will split when it gets to the area, in a few smaller groups so that players could split and kill the groups without zergfesting. Also the problem is that there are a lot of players in the same areas right now, eventually things will be better in the future.

Another thing. Maybe in the forums many people are complaining but keep in mind: it's mostly who complains that's writing in forums, happy people just play and shut up. And what's sad is that often game developers listen to those complains and don't know how many people were happy with things being just the way they were.

P.S. Sorry about my english if something's wrong

[XPhiler]

Misce, on 06 September 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

You are clear. Just one thing: this isn't a Saturday night out where some buddies got together for a good time, when some party-pooper showed up and killed their buzz. People who want a good time in a game should look for it there - in a game. People who want to say/read only good things about the game should be done on the fan sites.

Since we have no official forums yet this is the next best thing. No one posts criticism here just to make the game look bad. If I, for instance, was completely not interested in GW2 I wouldn't at all be here, not even to post criticism. I feel very let down by GW2 and I post here almost every day, together with other people who think alike, in hope someone at ANet will make notice of our complaints and do something about it.

The flame war starts when fanbois appear, somehow insulted by criticism, and then shit hits the fan. The point is if they like the game fine, go play the game. If you want a fan site fine, go visit one, but THIS is NO FAN SITE. It's GW2 forums and constructive criticism is more than welcome. May any of the moderators correct me if I'm wrong.

So again, I'm sorry to spoil your happy mood about GW2 but there are things seriously lacking there and I want them fixed. That's why I post here.

Only your first post on the matter was "Friend, the problem is that the game is boring. Just because ANet made that conscious decision from the very start doesn't make it ok."

You say "No one posts criticism here just to make the game look bad" but tell me what did your first post do besides trying to make the game look bad?

You didnt pin point anything OP said that makes the game boring! you didnt suggest things to change to make the game better. You just expressed a single negative opinion that does nothing apart from painting the game in a negative light.

So no the point is not if you like the game dont say anything against negative comments with no substance, the point is like other told you, if a post says something possitive, if you have any point you disagree with, respectfully point out why you think it is not good, suggest how to fix it. But saying no the game is just boring is actually inviting flaming really!

[mentalvortex]

Since you have a long and well thought out post I'll address it one point at a time. While there are some good points, there are similarly ones that are flawed or just incorrect.

TimeBomb, on 06 September 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

Whether I'm leveling from 30 to 31 or 65 to 66, there doesn't seem to be much difference. I am playing the game in a very similar manner either way, and don't have much to aim for, aside perhaps from wanting to adventure in Orr.
But... that's what ArenaNet wanted. They didn't want end game to feel like a different game. They wanted to break away from the norm - to make Guild Wars 2 to play like one game from start to end - which is not the MMORPG norm, which it does indeed.
Therein lies the problem. I believe that many, if not most MMO players are not used to this lack of progression and arguable lack of what we know/expect to be end game.

On top of ArenaNet not wanting the end game to be a completely different game, there is a noticeable overall lack of progression. Thus there is little to no reason to level up.
Expect - to play and enjoy the game. And that's what you have to do. I don't think a lot of people are used to the idea that Guild Wars 2 tries to bring to the MMORPG genre. I feel that many of us expect to play the game just so we can.. play the (end) game.

Let's start out with what is incorrect. While you would be correct in saying the impact of progression is much less than other games, you would be wrong saying it isn't there. Traits are a humongous factor that give you a huge advantage over people that don't have them. Take WvW for example - as a level 1 doing WvW vs 80s it's a death sentence. The reason it's a death sentence is because you have no traits and the 80s have max traits. Also, people who are using the "down-level" function in the current area you are in are easy to notice. They do significantly more damage than other people because the traits being a defining factor. If ANet wanted to make the game feel like being 1-80 was the exact same in difficulty, they failed on that front.

Quote

When I first started playing GW2 at early release, I was playing it like a normal MMORPG. It wasn't until my mid 50s that I noticed I wasn't really aiming for anything, I wasn't really progressing- and I wasn't all that happy about that.
After noticing that, my leveling speed and overall will to play slowed down noticeably. Mind you, part of that is due to the fact that I forcefully limited my playtime in Guild Wars 2 (I was playing too much for my own good; I had more important things to do that I was pushing off constantly).

I realized that Guild Wars 2 is not your run-of-the-mill MMORPG - not just because of the excellent pile of features it has - but because it's a GAME.
Yes, Guild Wars 2 is a game. But wait, you already knew that, right? ...Maybe not. Once I started playing Guild Wars 2 more like I would many other co-op RPGs, rather than just as a MMORPG, I noticed that I was enjoying myself more. I sort of felt like I was actually playing Guild Wars 2 "right".

This can be argued to differences in mindsets. Not the way ANet has developed the game. In other MMOs no one is forcing you to progress at a fast speed - they're games as well. Many do progress in this speedy way though because quite a few of them are subscription based. As for the ones that aren't, they behave no differently - it's not the game but the player's desire to progress that makes them do so. The game WILL be played like an MMO because it is one. Many reviews from players that have no desire in MMOs have expressed this fact. Simply because GW2 tried to be different doesn't make it an exception to the genre as a whole.

Quote

Getting max level and getting the best loot isn't everything - not in Guild Wars 2. Guild Wars 2 is an excellent game from multiple perspectives, and I think that many people who are claiming that the game is repetitive or has other progression-related issues would enjoy themselves more if they tried playing the game with a mindset that this is not your run-of-the-mill MMORPG, but this is actually a good role playing game.

This part is subjective. I actually attempted to play through this game story-based as I would a normal single player RPG and what I got out of it was a cliche storyline and minimal enjoyment for the "single player" aspect. But it does bring up a good question - if this game was single player would it be revolutionary? Would it be 9/10 or even 10/10 rating? I would say no. Not by a longshot. People play GW2 because it functions as a MMO - not because it can function as either. Playing GW2 like an RPG as opposed to an MMORPG has made me wholly disappointed. The features in the game that grip players in this game are features that other MMOs have: sPvP, WvW, Dungeons, the market, etc. I think it's worth mentioning again since I enjoy PvP gametypes (not so much in this game) that WvW is not balanced in the slightest for levels 1-80.

Quote

Guild Wars 2 isn't just a "casual" MMORPG. It's also a great game. Understandably, that may not be what many people were expecting nor what they want.

Again, I find it to be the opposite. I'll compare it to a semi-recent RPG because it's unfair for me to always keep using the examples of my favorite old-school RPG greats. If you compare this game on a single-player aspect to The Witcher 2, the game feels very shallow both combat and story-wise. I'll add to the end that's my opinion.

[Heart Collector]

Misce, on 06 September 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

You are clear. Just one thing: this isn't a Saturday night out where some buddies got together for a good time, when some party-pooper showed up and killed their buzz. People who want a good time in a game should look for it there - in a game. People who want to say/read only good things about the game should be done on the fan sites.

Since we have no official forums yet this is the next best thing. No one posts criticism here just to make the game look bad. If I, for instance, was completely not interested in GW2 I wouldn't at all be here, not even to post criticism. I feel very let down by GW2 and I post here almost every day, together with other people who think alike, in hope someone at ANet will make notice of our complaints and do something about it.

The flame war starts when fanbois appear, somehow insulted by criticism, and then shit hits the fan. The point is if they like the game fine, go play the game. If you want a fan site fine, go visit one, but THIS is NO FAN SITE. It's GW2 forums and constructive criticism is more than welcome. May any of the moderators correct me if I'm wrong.

So again, I'm sorry to spoil your happy mood about GW2 but there are things seriously lacking there and I want them fixed. That's why I post here.

The GW2 forums opened up! Where's you're excuse now? HAH!

Just kidding. Seriously I want things fixed as much as anyone. But posting "Friend, the problem is that the game is boring. Just because ANet made that conscious decision from the very start doesn't make it ok." does not sound much like the constructive criticism the game needs. And it's when posts like this which don't really add anything to the discussion crop up in every other thread by the same usual suspects (more often than not - and BTW I'm not saying you're one of them, I don't remember you posting like this anywhere else) that threads that are meant to share excitement and positive opinion are derailed.

As I said - I'd have no issue if you or anyone posted their concerns in a pertinent, active thread or even the suggestion forums.

I'm not attacking you personally, so sorry if I came off as aggressive - but it's just that these boards seemed a good deal more welcoming and warm some time back. I don't want them to devolve into the loathesome cesspit that is the Diablo 3 or SWTOR forums Criticism is welcome, negativity is expected... But sometimes things just get out of hand.

Thanks for reading and again don't take this as a personal assault.

Edited by Heart Collector, 06 September 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[TimeBomb]

mentalvortex said:

Since you have a long and well thought out post I'll address it one point at a time. While there are some good points, there are similarly ones that are flawed or just incorrect.Let's start out with what is incorrect.

TimeBomb said:

snip

While you would be correct in saying the impact of progression is much less than other games, you would be wrong saying it isn't there. Traits are a humongous factor that give you a huge advantage over people that don't have them. Take WvW for example - as a level 1 doing WvW vs 80s it's a death sentence. The reason it's a death sentence is because you have no traits and the 80s have max traits. Also, people who are using the "down-level" function in the current area you are in are easy to notice. They do significantly more damage than other people because the traits being a defining factor. If ANet wanted to make the game feel like being 1-80 was the exact same in difficulty, they failed on that front.

By lack of progression, I didn't mean that there was none, I meant that there was much less than most other MMORPGs.
The difference in levels in WvW is purely because of down leveling - not specifically traits. A level 20 upleveled to 80 will deal very little damage to an actual level 80 because the upleveling system doesn't give a low level enough stat boosts to be competitive with people that are a drastically higher level than them. It is not just the extra 200-300 stats given by the trait system.

mentalvortex said:

TimeBomb said:

snip

This can be argued to differences in mindsets. Not the way ANet has developed the game. In other MMOs no one is forcing you to progress at a fast speed - they're games as well. Many do progress in this speedy way though because quite a few of them are subscription based. As for the ones that aren't, they behave no differently - it's not the game but the player's desire to progress that makes them do so. The game WILL be played like an MMO because it is one. Many reviews from players that have no desire in MMOs have expressed this fact. Simply because GW2 tried to be different doesn't make it an exception to the genre as a whole.

This is definitely a bias. This game can be played like an MMO and it can be played like a more normal co-op RPG. I personally get more out of the game when playing it like the latter, and I believe some others may as well.

mentalvortex said:

TimeBomb said:

snip

This part is subjective. I actually attempted to play through this game story-based as I would a normal single player RPG and what I got out of it was a cliche storyline and minimal enjoyment for the "single player" aspect. But it does bring up a good question - if this game was single player would it be revolutionary? Would it be 9/10 or even 10/10 rating? I would say no. Not by a longshot. People play GW2 because it functions as a MMO - not because it can function as either. Playing GW2 like an RPG as opposed to an MMORPG has made me wholly disappointed. The features in the game that grip players in this game are features that other MMOs have: sPvP, WvW, Dungeons, the market, etc. I think it's worth mentioning again since I enjoy PvP gametypes (not so much in this game) that WvW is not balanced in the slightest for levels 1-80.

This is indeed subjective. While I don't think GW2's story mode would be awarded a 9/10 or 10/10, I do quite enjoy it, as well as the rest of the game from a normal RPG perspective.

mentalvortex said:

TimeBomb said:

snip

Again, I find it to be the opposite. I'll compare it to a semi-recent RPG because it's unfair for me to always keep using the examples of my favorite old-school RPG greats. If you compare this game on a single-player aspect to The Witcher 2, the game feels very shallow both combat and story-wise. I'll add to the end that's my opinion.

Thanks for your opinion. I do indeed respectfully disagree, but I very much like hearing different perspectives.

[Pants1987]

Misce, on 06 September 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

It's not my one opinion. Take a look at the forums - it's swamped with complaints.

The majority of people who enjoy the game are doing just that. Enjoying the game.

I have complete wanderlust in this game. I normally don't know where I'm going, I have no particular goal, I just go out into the world and explore. I don't see having been to every zone as limiting to my experience.

If I want Karma or skill points I'm not limited to one zone, or even a few zones, I can go anywhere I like.

I can go talk to all the hundreds of NPC's that I haven't spotted before, listen to their conversations, bump into dynamic events I haven't spotted before. Find caves, random items, chase achievements.

Why does my end-game have to be focused on chasing the metaphorical carrot. Why can't I just do what I have been doing the whole time and run around aimlessly doing whatever I fancy at the time.

Why does anybody need a shiny sticker to make them feel like they have been productive rather than merely enjoying the game.

[XPhiler]

mentalvortex, on 06 September 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Since you have a long and well thought out post I'll address it one point at a time. While there are some good points, there are similarly ones that are flawed or just incorrect.Let's start out with what is incorrect. While you would be correct in saying the impact of progression is much less than other games, you would be wrong saying it isn't there. Traits are a humongous factor that give you a huge advantage over people that don't have them. Take WvW for example - as a level 1 doing WvW vs 80s it's a death sentence. The reason it's a death sentence is because you have no traits and the 80s have max traits. Also, people who are using the "down-level" function in the current area you are in are easy to notice. They do significantly more damage than other people because the traits being a defining factor. If ANet wanted to make the game feel like being 1-80 was the exact same in difficulty, they failed on that front.

You're right to a degree but please note two things. One that OP was talking about the PvE side of things and not WvW. what he is saying is that GW2 doesnt leave the interesting stuff for end game and put filler content in between. Of course this is subjective, some find dynamic events to be boring, fair enough but there is no denieing that for some they're are amazing. Thing is and I Agree with OP on this in most MMOs you finish a quest look at the experiance bar and go did that move at all? Gees I guess I will have to do a bunch other quests that all feel the same. In GW2 at least me I am hunting for Dynamic events cause I love seeing them evolve, I love how they feel I love how they play. And when they dynamic event finishes I am like what I am level 54, that was a level 40 dynamic event!

Now second part, its true if you're level one and you're up against a level 80 player in WvW unless you're really good and the level 80 player is really bad you're going to die. Its also true that 1 on 1 engagements in WvW are almost unheard off! It doesnt matter how one play is effective or one player is defective in the overall scheme of things when it comes to WvW, what matters is the group as is intended after all. Its world vs world not 1vs1 for a reason.

That being said there is undeniable progression. At level 1 you are not going to handle level 80 content. Its just that in Gw2 that progression feels somewhat less limiting then other games.

mentalvortex, on 06 September 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

This can be argued to differences in mindsets. Not the way ANet has developed the game. In other MMOs no one is forcing you to progress at a fast speed - they're games as well. Many do progress in this speedy way though because quite a few of them are subscription based. As for the ones that aren't, they behave no differently - it's not the game but the player's desire to progress that makes them do so. The game WILL be played like an MMO because it is one. Many reviews from players that have no desire in MMOs have expressed this fact. Simply because GW2 tried to be different doesn't make it an exception to the genre as a whole.

In some MMOs you are kind of I would say yes. in A lot of MMOs that I have played I never reached max level simply because the proccess of getting to max level was not fun. it goes back to the extrinsic reward actually. These games will give you end game as a reward but have you work for it through boring PvE content. this in turn forces players to rush to get to end game where the fun starts.  You're being forced to rush through because if you dont you'll like to burn out and abandon the game. I personally hate rushing in any game and do infact end up dropping these games.

mentalvortex, on 06 September 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Again, I find it to be the opposite. I'll compare it to a semi-recent RPG because it's unfair for me to always keep using the examples of my favorite old-school RPG greats. If you compare this game on a single-player aspect to The Witcher 2, the game feels very shallow both combat and story-wise. I'll add to the end that's my opinion.

Well actually if GW2 was a single player game, Dynamic events could be slowed down and I think they would make for a one hell of a Single player RPG. I personally am enjoying the story just well. Just feels a bit rushed in places to be 100 % honest but Its good. Always look forward to my next storyline mission which is how it should be!

[Misce]

XPhiler, on 06 September 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

Only your first post on the matter was "Friend, the problem is that the game is boring. Just because ANet made that conscious decision from the very start doesn't make it ok."

You say "No one posts criticism here just to make the game look bad" but tell me what did your first post do besides trying to make the game look bad?

You didnt pin point anything OP said that makes the game boring! you didnt suggest things to change to make the game better. You just expressed a single negative opinion that does nothing apart from painting the game in a negative light.

So no the point is not if you like the game dont say anything against negative comments with no substance, the point is like other told you, if a post says something possitive, if you have any point you disagree with, respectfully point out why you think it is not good, suggest how to fix it. But saying no the game is just boring is actually inviting flaming really!

I gave tons of suggestions all over forums. Not every single post I make has to contain long detailed information on how I feel about each feature of the game.

If I said the game was boring - change it so that it isn't boring anymore.

And for those who suggest the uninstall button: I suggest you stop following forums and knock yourselves out with a fan site.

[Lady Rhonwyn]

Misce, on 06 September 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

I gave tons of suggestions all over forums. Not every single post I make has to contain long detailed information on how I feel about each feature of the game.

If I said the game was boring - change it so that it isn't boring anymore.

But what if that change to make it less boring for you, would make it more boring for others?

[Jairyn]

Misce, on 06 September 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

It's not my one opinion. Take a look at the forums - it's swamped with complaints.

By this measure, every game that has forums is boring.

...and it looks to me as though about half those complaints are yours.

For what it is, I think GW2 is undeniably excellent. What it is not is a direct emulation of the Everquest/WoW/Rift model. I mean this in the very best way, but I'd say GW2 is more in the realm of Free Realms for adults (+PvP). It is absolutely superb for that. It may not be for everyone, I'm sorry you don't like it. Perhaps, however, if you readjusted your expectations a bit, as the OP suggests, you might find you enjoy it more?

Edited by Jairyn, 06 September 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[XPhiler]

Misce, on 06 September 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

I gave tons of suggestions all over forums. Not every single post I make has to contain long detailed information on how I feel about each feature of the game.

If I said the game was boring - change it so that it isn't boring anymore.

And for those who suggest the uninstall button: I suggest you stop following forums and knock yourselves out with a fan site.

Thats preciesly what people are trying to tell you. If you already discussed these concerns over other threads there is no need to advertise the ideal of those other posts in every positive post that people make. That will not add anything positive. Think about it in reverse what would you think if every time anyone made a negative post discussing an issue they dont like, such as I dont know... Its damaging to the economy that TP is down, or prices of exotic armor are too high etc.. etc.. people come on that threat and post random positive things like, this game is just awesome. The game has no subscription fee, I cant believe it has such a high production value. And then they justify that by saying that they wrote plenty of detail on the subject in other threads!

Bet you will be calling them fanbois, well you're doing the same but in the opposite direction.

So if you have a valid concern that makes you disagree with OPs of any thread by all means please do share it. But posting the game is boring in response to any possitive said is not constructive its just annoying.

Also without specifics statements like the game is boring change ti to make it less boring are pointless.

For some it will be less boring if we reduce progression, for others it will be less boring if we increase progression while for others the game is perfect the way it is. If you dont suggest the kinds of change you want to see, people will simply tell you their point of view. If you suggest changes people will see how they feel about your suggestion and they might like it more or they might like it less then how things are implemented. Bottom line without specific suggestions you'll not be improving anything

Edited by XPhiler, 06 September 2012 - 09:54 AM.

[mentalvortex]

XPhiler, on 06 September 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

Well actually if GW2 was a single player game, Dynamic events could be slowed down and I think they would make for a one hell of a Single player RPG. I personally am enjoying the story just well. Just feels a bit rushed in places to be 100 % honest but Its good. Always look forward to my next storyline mission which is how it should be!

Do you play many single player RPGs? I don't mean this to be a slight on you but the only reason DEs are such a big deal in GW2 is because it's an MMO and that's a hard function to implement in MMOs. "DEs" have been around in single player RPGs since the 90s. The whole game contains dynamic events and unlike GW2 they're permanent.

But the enjoyment of the story is completely subjective. I don't really understand the opinions of people who think this game has the most in-depth and most immersive story-telling in recent decades. Either they haven't played many RPGs or...again it's opinion. I don't know - I do feel like storytelling can be objectively shallow though.

[Heart Collector]

mentalvortex, on 06 September 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Do you play many single player RPGs? I don't mean this to be a slight on you but the only reason DEs are such a big deal in GW2 is because it's an MMO and that's a hard function to implement in MMOs. "DEs" have been around in single player RPGs since the 90s. The whole game contains dynamic events and unlike GW2 they're permanent.

But the enjoyment of the story is completely subjective. I don't really understand the opinions of people who think this game has the most in-depth and most immersive story-telling in recent decades. Either they haven't played many RPGs or...again it's opinion. I don't know - I do feel like storytelling can be objectively shallow though.

Can't say I disagree with either of your points. And yeah, the story so far at least isn't that brilliant (though I'm still very early in the game, it could change). However I find it quite adequate, so far it does it's job and does have me invested, albeit not at the edge of my seat! Guess I'm spoiled by point and click adventures when it comes to the story