45 replies to this topic

[mickst3r8]

As most of you guys have heard, several groups have already downed Khaitan and it was not as  epic as it was led out to be.

The current Zhaitan encounter takes place on an airship where a group would fight Khaitan and killing it easily with the cannons on the airship (5 man group?).

For an end game boss dragon that is suppose to be bigger than anything ever seen, a legendary apocalyptic monster that is capable of destroying the world itself... to be slain by a small group of players in an airship shooting cannons at it... Is... really really disappointing.

ArenaNet, you could still fix this though! You could implement a patch with more content, make it so Zhaitan was thought to be slain only to be resurrected by xxx. xxx then transferred power or something along the lines of that to make Zhaitan even more powerful, then blah blah blah you can see where I'm trying to go...

Then please make Zhaitan a hard encounter where at least 5 groups are needed to take him down...   PLEASE!

Edited by mickst3r8, 06 September 2012 - 06:56 AM.

[AxeX]

A fight feels more epic the less people there are. Also, having more people makes getting the group together harder, not the content.

[Garnatian]

No. This game simply will not work in a large group environment, keep all PvE content to 5-man and nothing more.

[mickst3r8]

lol... although your points are very valid.

This is the end game boss... It shouldn't be that easy to take him down... especially with just 5.

His dragon minions and the world boss's required alot more than 5 players to take down. It does not make sense that it requires more players to take down his minions yet he him self gets taken down by 5 players.

[noctred]

I was kinda disappointed with the Zhaitan fight as well.

I don't mind doing it with only 5 people, but the encounter itself is just a complete pushover. You don't really fight Zhaitan so much as you fight random adds that spawn on the airship, and then you just shoot cannons at him for a couple of minutes while he sits there doing nothing.

Pretty weak IMO.

[Noxid]

theres a couple ways i felt the Zhaitan encounter could have been more epic:

1) Have him swallow you and then use Caladbolg to pierce his undead heart, destroying the corruption at it's source.

2) Riding around on his back....but make it more epic than the Deathwing fight in WoW

3) Have him actually land and have a decent land skirmish for a while in some Golem Battlesuits and Charr Tanks.

imo....the Shatterer and Claw of Jormag were 10x more fun than Zhaitan.....especially Claw of Jormag, that is one epic battle...blowing his wings off and watching him crash land...words could not describe me freaking out

[Eliirae]

I like how you're trying to pretend that arenanet doesn't know what they're doing and you're trying to "help them along" with the whole "you still have time to fix this!" thing you've got going on.

Of course they have time.  They have until the game ends up being shut down to do anything they want.  As for "fixing" it, GW2 was never made with the intention of having content so ball crushingly difficult that only a small percentage of the playerbase could complete it.

[Bear Storm]

Should've just made the entire inside of his body a dungeon.

[noctred]

Eliirae, on 06 September 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

As for "fixing" it, GW2 was never made with the intention of having content so ball crushingly difficult that only a small percentage of the playerbase could complete it.

I'm not sure how much of the game's instanced content you've done, but many of the earlier dungeons have encounters that are several magnitudes harder than the Zhaitan encounter, even in standard story mode. Even in Arah itself, several of the encounters preceding Zhaitan are more difficult than Zhaitan himself.

It just seems like it would make sense for the game's climactic encounter against the elder dragon who single-handedly decimated the entire world to at least be on par, difficulty wise (or even in terms of interesting mechanics), with earlier content.

IMO anyways.

Edited by noctred, 06 September 2012 - 07:34 AM.

[Azjenco]

Khaitan you say...
Anyway, maybe they should just ramp up the difficulty a bit, but I agree this should not be the end. Over the next few months Zhaitan should be encountered on a few more skirmishes. The fight in Arah should be the first of the final encounters against Zhaitan.
Here's what I was thinking:

Noxid, on 06 September 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

1) Have him swallow you and then use Caladbolg to pierce his undead heart, destroying the corruption at it's source.

3) Have him actually land and have a decent land skirmish for a while in some Golem Battlesuits and Charr Tanks.

Your third point is what I think would be an epic DE on Orr. It could happen each time someone downs Zhaitan in the final dungeon, then he swoops outside and we all get to fight him in a blaze of glory. The reason it would only work after a few months is that by that time there would be far more level 80 than we see now.

Your first point would make for a brilliant final step in the personal journey. You enter an instance, much like any you have when doing the personal story. Here you and your chosen order, as well as the reformed Destiny's Edge go inside the dragon and deal the killing blow. That way the Zhaitan encounter can cross the entire game, starting in a dungeon, leading into a DE, and ending in your personal story.

[Waar Kijk Je Naar]

I'm not opposed to fighting him with cannons and a 5-man party but right now the fight is boring. It should be an epic-boss fight.

Right now it's like:

• Shoot down lieutenant dragons while killing smaller monsters.
  
• Watch cutscene.
  
• Kill small monsters, possibly a veteran or 2.
  
• Watch cutscene.
  
• Press F to mount a cannon, press your 2nd skill till he falls down.

It's easy and there's just not enough action for this type of combat. I don't know if the game is limited by the engine at this point, but why can't I aim/shoot at the lieutenants when they fly around? Why is Zhaitan stationary at the end? It's like he wants to be killed.

What it should be like:

• Dragon lieutenants assault the ship and will break it down piece by piece. Npc's fight the small adds, players focus on the dragons and possibly some larger monsters. Shoot down the dragons with skill shots, NOT just when they stop flying and want you to shoot them. If dragons are not killed in time, ship crashes down and players have to take an alternative path.
  
• Cutscene.
  
• Zhaitan appears, after a short fight his wing gets roasted by the big cannon (forgot its name).
  
• Cutscene. Players or npc's (depending on what happened in part 1) crash down a ship on him.
  
• Players finish him off or some other epic stuff.

Ofcourse this is just an example. I am neither a game-designer nor a storywriter.

Edited by Waar Kijk Je Naar, 06 September 2012 - 07:54 AM.

[Azjenco]

Waar Kijk Je Naar, on 06 September 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

I'm not opposed to fighting him with cannons and a 5-man party but right now the fight is boring. It should be an epic-boss fight.

Right now it's like:

• Shoot down lieutenant dragons while killing smaller monsters.
  
• Watch cutscene.
  
• Kill small monsters, possibly a veteran or 2.
  
• Watch cutscene.
  
• Press F to mount a cannon, press your 2nd skill till he falls down.

It's easy and there's just not enough action for this type of combat. I don't know if the game is limited by the engine at this point, but why can't I aim/shoot at the lieutenants when they fly around? Why is Zhaitan stationary at the end? It's like he wants to be killed.

What it should be like:

• Dragon lieutenants assault the ship and will break it down piece by piece. Npc's fight the small adds, players focus on the dragons and possibly some larger monsters. Shoot down the dragons with skill shots, NOT just when they stop flying and want you to shoot them. If dragons are not killed in time, ship crashes down and players have to take an alternative path.
  
• Cutscene.
  
• Zhaitan appears, after a short fight his wing gets roasted by the big cannon (forgot its name).
  
• Cutscene. Players or npc's (depending on what happened in part 1) crash down a ship on him.
  
• Players finish him off or some other epic stuff.

Ofcourse this is just an example. I am neither a game-designer nor a storywriter.

I really still want to see this fight first hand. But tell me, do you actually kill Zhaitan at the end, or can it be seen as one of those 'he was dealt a heavy blow, but got away' scenarios?

As for the epicness, I still think he needs to be a world encounter as well. The fight can be drawn out as a series of events spanning hours of play across the entirety of Orr. Now that could be awesome. Like I said in my previous post, I also think the battle with Zhaitan should reach its ultimate conclusion inside a personal story instance.

[Waar Kijk Je Naar]

Azjenco, on 06 September 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

I really still want to see this fight first hand. But tell me, do you actually kill Zhaitan at the end, or can it be seen as one of those 'he was dealt a heavy blow, but got away' scenarios?

You are on the biggest airship in the whole fleet with a big ass asura cannon on it. The cannon hits Zhaitan's wing (basically roasting it), and Zhaitan ''lands/hangs'' (vertically) on a tower of Orr. From there on you just sit on a cannon, press your ''shoot'' skill and after a minute or 2 he will fall down dead.

[Vicarious]

wait so let me get some of these complaints straight....

some people are upset that you do it with only 5 people?  well get over it, this isn't WoW where you just zerg the boss with damage, switch tanks on a specific attack, and have some people playing whack a mole in the back, all in order to beat some random "enrage timer" in order to win.

the way GW2 is set up there just can't be large scale battles in a controlled environment like that of the instance bosses.  besides, number of players present DOES NOT make things epic.  how many good books have you read where the final battle DIDNT focus on the main characters?  thats what the zhaitan fight is meant to do, focus on the main characters (or at least make it easier for you to focus on your own character and destinys edge).

another, some people are complaining that you dont directly fight him?  please explain to me how that would make sense... hitting him with some little weapons enough times to kill him i mean... explain that, please....

now the last argument i see is that its too easy?  well now i can agree with that one, i think story wise its still fairly epic and done very well, but gameplay wise it is quite stagnant

[Vicarious]

danielpreciad, on 06 September 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

I still think he needs to be a world encounter as well.

maybe start as a world encounter where a large group of players and NPCs can weaken and almost defeat him, but he escapes to recuperate or something and a smaller 5 man team has to go finish him while the rest of the army stays behind to hold the undead back for them?

idk, i definitely wouldnt mind him being a world encounter, but it HAS to be FINISHED in an instance or you lose the epic factor of the storyline in the mass of players that mobbed him at the end.

[Gileas898]

Eliirae, on 06 September 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

Of course they have time.  They have until the game ends up being shut down to do anything they want.  As for "fixing" it, GW2 was never made with the intention of having content so ball crushingly difficult that only a small percentage of the playerbase could complete it.

Ball crushingly difficult?

HAHAHAHAHA

Get real dude, I let my 9-year-old brother hammer the "2" button during that fight so I could go make some coffee. Unfortunately he slipped and pressed the "1" button which moves the cannon a set distance to the left, but my dad is a professor in physics so he managed to figure out that if you press the "3" button the cannon moves a set distance to the right, and my brother could once again hammer the "2" button to kill Zhaitan. Seriously just leave these forums your opinion is completely based on your delusionary mind rather than the fight itself (you have never done it).

And yes, my coffee was ready before Zhaitan died.

Edited by Gileas898, 06 September 2012 - 08:54 AM.

[noctred]

Vicarious, on 06 September 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

this isn't WoW where you just zerg the boss with damage, switch tanks on a specific attack, and have some people playing whack a mole in the back, all in order to beat some random "enrage timer" in order to win.

Most dungeon encounters in this game can be endlessly waypoint zerged. If you're going to make [half-assed] comparisons, at least be fair about them.

Just saying.

[Vicarious]

noctred, on 06 September 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

Most dungeon encounters in this game can be endlessly waypoint zerged. If you're going to make [half-assed] comparisons, at least be fair about them.

Just saying.

you dont seem to understand the concept of "zerg," or at least not in the context im using it.

having the ability to run back to an encounter without being locked out like in WoW isnt zerging the boss.  zerging the boss is when you just have so many people in one instance you can all go run up to the bosses face (or asscheeks more often) and mash your rotations and priorities out and win.

just saying.

[Gileas898]

Vicarious, on 06 September 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

you dont seem to understand the concept of "zerg," or at least not in the context im using it.

having the ability to run back to an encounter without being locked out like in WoW isnt zerging the boss.  zerging the boss is when you just have so many people in one instance you can all go run up to the bosses face (or asscheeks more often) and mash your rotations and priorities out and win.

just saying.

Which is exactly what you can do in GW2 (I never "wiped" on any boss in GW2).

just saying.

[Vicarious]

Gileas898, on 06 September 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Which is exactly what you can do in GW2 (I never "wiped" on any boss in GW2).

just saying.

prove it.

post a video of you running up to the face or backside of a boss and start hitting all of your skills in any way you see fit and then live without having to dodge or maneuver too much (since in zergs you dont really need to).

now if youre talking about open world bosses that have no limit to the amount of people who can participate then youre not even on the same topic.

[noctred]

Vicarious, on 06 September 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

zerging the boss is when you just have so many people in one instance you can all go run up to the bosses face (or asscheeks more often) and mash your rotations and priorities out and win.

just saying.

1. It doesn't really matter if you die in a GW2 dungeon. As long as one person in your party can kite around and not get hit, dead people can endlessly flood the encounter, smash their faces against the boss, die again, and come back again. Ad infinitum. This might as well be zerging and makes it kinda difficult to completely wipe on a fight.

2. You've probably never actually done a single non-LFR progression raid in World of Warcraft (i.e. non-farm, non-super casual easy mode), if you think that's how they go. Certain vanilla fights were an exception.

Off-topic though I guess.

Edited by noctred, 06 September 2012 - 09:19 AM.

[Gileas898]

Vicarious, on 06 September 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

and mash your rotations and priorities out and win.

Vicarious, on 06 September 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

start hitting all of your skills in any way you see fit and then live without having to dodge or maneuver too much

If you want to discuss something don't warp your arguments and statements to whatever fits you at the moment, it makes you lose a lot of credibility.

And why do you bring dodging into this? You can't dodge in WoW, there is however a ton of movement on WoW bosses.

[Sinte]

Don't look so smug! I know what you're thinking, but Orr was merely a set back!

Seriously there are plenty of raiding games out there, you want 20+ people content, play one of those. No need to beat a dead horse, you and I both know that content won't come to GW2 (at least as far as instanced goes). I'll take my huge WvW battles as big group content for now.

I look forward to doing the explorable mode having done story already, wonder what is in store for us there, but we have people finishing up their twilight arbor explorable items first.

P.S We all already knew that we would kill Zhaitan with 5 players, because that's the maximum PvE instance size. We already have plenty of fun group fights to do in uninstanced world.

Edited by Sinte, 06 September 2012 - 09:23 AM.

[Vicarious]

noctred, on 06 September 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

1. It doesn't really matter if you die in a GW2 dungeon. As long as one person in your party can kite around and not get hit, dead people can endlessly flood the encounter, smash their faces against the boss, die again, and come back again. Ad infinitum. This might as well be zerging and makes it kinda difficult to completely wipe on a fight.

2. You've probably never actually done a single non-LFR progression raid in World of Warcraft (i.e. non-farm, non-super casual easy mode), if you think that's how they go. Certain vanilla fights were an exception.

Off-topic though I guess.

1. thats stretching it, cause as you said at least one person has to be good enough and hope the boss doesnt have a ranged or closing skill in order for it to work.  so if your group really is that bad then its not a zerg fight, its one good player survives while the rest of the bad players try and hurry back before the good player dies. and no a tank in WoW doesnt count as this, cause all they have to do is follow their rotation and watch aggro then switch on a specified attack in 25 mans, and the healer is just playing whack a mole.  also you forget that in order to get back fast enough players would have to use the closest warp point in the instance which is almost always not the one at the main entrance where the repair station is, so eventually if they were really zerging then all their armor would break and theyd either have to go back farther most likely giving the boss enough time to kill the one last survivor since all bosses are not completely kitable as in they all have some mechanic that doesnt allow it, even WoW made sure that wasnt possible) or theyd go back and instantly die, which means the survivor would also die due to not having a break from directly soloing the boss.

2.  actually i did, and in every encounter you run up to the boss (sometimes behind the boss, sometimes spread out around the boss, etc) do your rotations while the tank does his and the healer whacks the moles, and occasionally you have to move or switch targets.  the only possible exception to this that i got to experience was the lich king in ICC25, which is a lot less then 90% or so of the bosses in GW2 so far.

also i had quit by the time LFR came out, but im guessing it was as bad as i expected?  zerg fests of total noobs to get gear required to get to the real raid?  "brilliant" idea by blizz right there lol

Gileas898, on 06 September 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

If you want to discuss something don't warp your arguments and statements to whatever fits you at the moment, it makes you lose a lot of credibility.

And why do you bring dodging into this? You can't dodge in WoW, there is however a ton of movement on WoW bosses.

what?  i did not warp that at all.

i said in WoW all you do is zerg and mash your buttons in their rotations/priorities.

then when i was explaining zerging i said all you do is mash your buttons in their rotations/priorities, so when someone told me you also zerg in GW2 i said prove by doing just that.

youre trying to hard to make a point, next time think through it a little more.

and i brought dodging into it by saying dont do it, basically since you cant in WoW, and would take away from the whole "you zerg in GW2 as well).  plus the movement in WoW is "move from marker A to marker B when this happens while the tanks switch at marker C."  i dont call that engaging movement mechanics.

Edited by Vicarious, 06 September 2012 - 09:39 AM.

[noctred]

Vicarious, on 06 September 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

2.  actually i did, and in every encounter you run up to the boss (sometimes behind the boss, sometimes spread out around the boss, etc) do your rotations while the tank does his and the healer whacks the moles, and occasionally you have to move or switch targets.

This is such a gross over-simplification. You could easily do the same thing for GW2 - in every encounter you run up to the boss, position yourself conveniently, start spamming damage and occasionally dodge out of red circles or switch targets. Easy.

Is it actually that simple? Not really. Neither are most WoW raids, so please stop making them out to be. Many, many WoW encounters were far more complex. A large part of AQ40 (C'thun lol), some Naxx40 stuff, pre-nerf M'uru, pre-nerf Kael'thas, Vashj, Reliquary of Souls, Yogg with no extra keepers, pre-nerf heroic LK25 (with 0% ICC buff), heroic Rag, a good chunk of heroic Blackwing Descent, and many, many others.

Saying that these fights (when they were relevant) came down to zerging with damage is so far into the realm of ignorance that I don't really even know what to say.

Edited by noctred, 06 September 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[K0tY]

I dont know why people are saying "End game boss" Did the game ended after you killed him ? No ? Well i have a information for you, there are 5(6) Dragons, so killing just one is not "The End" its merely a begging, as Zhaitan was not even the most badass one.

Stop with that "OMG THIS SHOULD BE 25MAN LOLOLO DURGONZZZ" bs, its a 5man, it always will be, you dont need to be in great numbers to defeat great evil, you just have to have strategy.

[Robsy128]

To be honest, I'd rather have 5 players than 60 players all running around going:

'FUS RO DAH'
'TROLOLOLOLOLOL'
'MWAHAHAHA'
'Ooooh.... *screenshot tiiimmmmeee!*'
'I'm naked! Woohoo!'

And yeah, it gets worse from there. Wasn't Destiny's Edge you know... like 5 people brought together to fight the elder dragons? It's only right that it should be 5 heroes to face the final boss. It's epic to have a whole army, but I quite liked the feeling of GW1 making you a hero that was better than everyone else. If I was surrounded by another 60 players, I'd just feel like another soldier ready to die :/

[Vicarious]

noctred, on 06 September 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

This is such a gross over-simplification. You could easily do the same thing for GW2 - in every encounter you run up to the boss, position yourself conveniently, start spamming damage and occasionally dodge out of red circles or switch targets. Easy.

Is it actually that simple? Not really. Neither are most WoW raids, so please stop making them out to be. Many, many WoW encounters were far more complex. A large part of AQ40 (C'thun lol), some Naxx40 stuff, pre-nerf M'uru, pre-nerf Kael'thas, Vashj, Reliquary of Souls, Yogg with no extra keepers, pre-nerf heroic LK25 (with 0% ICC buff), heroic Rag, a good chunk of heroic Blackwing Descent, and many, many others.

Saying that these fights (when they were relevant) came down to zerging with damage is so far into the realm of ignorance that I don't really even know what to say.

ok let me specify, the current WoW content that is directly parallel to GW2 in the market is THAT simple.

sure the vanilla/BC content and some of the final bosses in the WotLK raids had more to them, like i said the lich king was in fact one of those in my opinion, but so far just about everything in cataclysm has been "zerg boss, avoid specific attacks that are shown to you before they happen cause everyone has addons, and down before enrage timer."

i mean seriously, even deathwing was just a dps race against the enrage timer that involved switching targets fast enough while moving from one platform to another (i.e. simple stuff), that is how blizz decided to make their content more difficult, shorter timers.  idk, maybe i was just in a good guild where everyone knew how to move 5 feet and switch targets when needed, cause it was NEVER difficult after the lich king.

[tanque]

Well seeing as you killed a god in gw1 with 8 people I'm not surprised,and that was quite a boring fight and so anti climatic(there was even a cutscene with everyone rallying up before the fight).

[murasamune]

i love the passive aggressive title of this post

and how the game has been out for what.. 2 weeks? max?

yeah they have plenty of time to fix it. and a variety of issues that are far more pressing.