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Knight's vs Cleric's Armor


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#1 Korain

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 07:25 PM

I've recently hit 80 and have begun to debate what stats I should aim for. In theory, I will improve whatever isn't on my armor, between toughness and vitality, with jewelry. I enjoy the idea of being tankier than most, but still being able to do moderate damage. That being said, I also like the idea of support in dungeons with banners, and the "Banners apply regeneration" trait. Looking at wiki, we can find the equation for regeneration.

1.625*Level + 0.0625*Healing Power per second

That's not a lot. At all. That's a base of 130 at level 80, and if you have any straight "glass cannons" in your party (shame on them...), there's no helping them. Looking at numbers, the primary stat on Cleric's armor is healing. With just Cleric's armor (Cleric's stats are Healing Power*/Power/Toughness) alone, not including weapons, you can get up to 315 healing power. Add in Cleric's weapons, and that boosts it up to 495. (These numbers were reached by using stats from level 80 exotic armor/weapons ONLY). If we plug that into our equation:

(1.625*88)+(0.0625*495)=160.9375 per second

Knight's armor, on the other hand, improves Toughness*/Power/Precision.

Looking at the data above, which do you think would be more beneficial to a party? A Warrior in Cleric's armor/weapons using banners to apply regeneration and support, or a Warrior in Knight's armor that is able to do some more damage (hopefully) with the extra precision?

* = the primary, and therefore largest, attribute on any given piece of armor with this prefix.

#2 Beta Sprite

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 07:51 PM

Do we know how much healing is done by shouts with Vigorous Shouts?  I was thinking of doing something similar to what you are doing, but with that instead of the banner regeneration.  I'm not high enough level to test it out yet, though.  =/

Anyway, if you are healing 30 more per second, that can add up over a long fight if you keep banners up all of the time, but I would lean towards Knight's for the personal survivability.  Can't heal anyone if you're dead.

Edited by Beta Sprite, 06 September 2012 - 07:52 PM.


#3 Korain

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:05 PM

View PostBeta Sprite, on 06 September 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Do we know how much healing is done by shouts with Vigorous Shouts?  I was thinking of doing something similar to what you are doing, but with that instead of the banner regeneration.  I'm not high enough level to test it out yet, though.  =/

I scoured the wiki trying to find the formula, but wasn't able too. I won't be able to figure it out with the numbers I have, but let me log on really quick, throw that trait in and get into a few fights, then I'll edit this post with numbers.

EDIT: Just logged in really quick to look at this. Leveled down to level 72, I had 487 Healing Power. Every time I used a shout, I healed for 1390. By removing my rings/earrings/amulet, my Healing Power dropped to 180, and my shouts healed for 1139.

Edited by Korain, 06 September 2012 - 08:24 PM.


#4 Beta Sprite

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:43 PM

View PostKorain, on 06 September 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Just logged in really quick to look at this. Leveled down to level 72, I had 487 Healing Power. Every time I used a shout, I healed for 1390. By removing my rings/earrings/amulet, my Healing Power dropped to 180, and my shouts healed for 1139.


With the fastest recharging shout alone (FGJ or SIO) with a 20% reduced recharge rate, you have 69.5 healing per second (in bursts, of course) with the Healing Power boosted.  Without it, you have 56.95 per second.  If you were to cycle FGJ, SIO, and OMM (if it heals.  not sure, since it normally doesn't affect allies) on recharge, you get a total of 196.92 healing per second, or 161.36 per second without the cleric's.

This is only if you spam them dead on recharge, though, which makes SIO less useful, and is probably what makes banner regen and shout healing equal in power.  Either way, it's a difference of 30-35 health per second for wearing cleric's or not.

Still, I'd personally go with the knight's.  If the 30 more heal per second is preferred for you, then go for it.  =)

#5 Red_Falcon

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:54 PM

Some day I got down on maths and in-game tests about this, turns out banners give the same thing and way more.
Follow me.

Shouts.
Heal of 2200ish with full compassion.
When translating this into healing per second you heal about 200 to yourself and much less on your team (OMM is not a team buff), which is less healing than equal-compassion regen, which is nothing basically fights.
This will sacrifice ALL of your utility slots.

Banners.
The regen heals 230hp/s with full compassion on all the team.
The build gives a largely reduced CD and largerly augmented radius on your Battle Standard (which for the record is a great support elite, which you should slot in any hard content if you want to support), give the same healing over time compared to shouts, but they only take one or two slots to get the full effect.
Furthermore, Battle Standard gives 3s stability (which is invaluable in some high-CC boss fights), Banner of Discipline gives permafury, Defense gives knockback and team swiftness, let alone the passive bonuses banners give.
And you still get 2 free slots you can fill with even more useful stuff.

There is little doubt on what is the intended warrior support setup between the two.
I would only go for shout healing IF there is already a Warrior taking care of Banner healing.

#6 LOCOMOFO

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:39 PM

I've been debating whether to swap over to a banner setup ever since I picked up Vigorous Shouts.  I haven't invested in +healing gear (yet), but so far have been really disappointed with the effectiveness of the trait.  It seems even if I do invest in +healing gear, the effectiveness of the trait will not improve all that much anyway.

I love shouts, so Vigorous Shouts seemed like an obvious choice, but Red_Falcon brings up a good point.  I can trait for banner regen, slot 1 banner in my utilities and still fit 2 shouts in the other slots.  I'm still not sold on this setup, it's more of a dungeon build rather than an all purpose one.

The thing I don't like about banners is you have to stay within it's radius for the buffs/regen.  Plus they have a long CD (even when traited), so really if you want to keep that regen up the whole time, you need to slot at least 2 banners in your utilities.  Decisions decisions.

#7 Kaylos21

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 01:17 AM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 06 September 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

Some day I got down on maths and in-game tests about this, turns out banners give the same thing and way more.
Follow me.

Shouts.
Heal of 2200ish with full compassion.
When translating this into healing per second you heal about 200 to yourself and much less on your team (OMM is not a team buff), which is less healing than equal-compassion regen, which is nothing basically fights.
This will sacrifice ALL of your utility slots.

Banners.
The regen heals 230hp/s with full compassion on all the team.
The build gives a largely reduced CD and largerly augmented radius on your Battle Standard (which for the record is a great support elite, which you should slot in any hard content if you want to support), give the same healing over time compared to shouts, but they only take one or two slots to get the full effect.
Furthermore, Battle Standard gives 3s stability (which is invaluable in some high-CC boss fights), Banner of Discipline gives permafury, Defense gives knockback and team swiftness, let alone the passive bonuses banners give.
And you still get 2 free slots you can fill with even more useful stuff.

There is little doubt on what is the intended warrior support setup between the two.
I would only go for shout healing IF there is already a Warrior taking care of Banner healing.

How do you get 200 HPS from 3 2200 heal shouts?  2200 for FGJ and SIO alone would equal 220 HPS, add in OMM and you get 311.7 HPS.  Of course this assumes you use them on cooldown.  I was not aware of the ehal not working on others for OMM and if that is the case you woudl assume SIO would only affect the person you remove a condition from.  I am not sure about this, but will test it later.  (I could have swore I saw OMM heal someone right next to me today)

However, if it isn't the case, shouts definitely have some other advantages over Banners.  For one, it is a flat heal and not a buff.  You could take 5 warriors with shouts and and they will all stack on top of each other.  Bring 5 warriors with banners, and you get just 1 heal buff.  Let's not forget that more than warriors can provide regeneration.  Also depeding on how it is used, the shouts can be used pretty much all at once providing situationally a 6600 burst heal all at once.  You are going to be waiting 22 seconds for that from Banners.  This assumes that the shouts are AoE heals.  Limiting OMM to self and SIO to self and 1 other defnitely would limit them.

As to the original question, I would personally go Cleric's if you are more support oriented and want your healing on others to be worth more.  I would go Knight's if you jsut want more self survivability.  Adrenal Health is not affected by healing.  The healing signet is barely affected at all by healing, and the 2 other heals are larger and the heal from healing is relatively small in comparison.  Sigil of Leeching is a set amount.  If you aren'y really investing in healing others, I wouldn't bother with Cleric's gear. (at least for your first set)

Edited by Kaylos21, 07 September 2012 - 01:21 AM.


#8 Red_Falcon

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 01:40 AM

And you're going to give up all your utility skills to basically get a "Mending" skill?
Which won't matter because bosses can hit for that much every few seconds?
Terrible way to play a game like GW2 honestly, you don't bring support, you don't bring control, you don't bring damage, you lock yourself to get a healing skill that eats 3 slots.

Whatever floats your boat tho,, tastes are tastes. :)

#9 Bofonic

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:03 AM

Just wondering how effective stacking #2 on banner of tactics (compassionate banner) would add up with regen, its like a spammable 10 second heal on top of regeneration + swiftness. Although in a Defense build you'd be limited to that and wouldn't be able to use any of your weapon skills. But its an interesting thought.

#10 Kaylos21

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:05 AM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 07 September 2012 - 01:40 AM, said:

And you're going to give up all your utility skills to basically get a "Mending" skill?
Which won't matter because bosses can hit for that much every few seconds?
Terrible way to play a game like GW2 honestly, you don't bring support, you don't bring control, you don't bring damage, you lock yourself to get a healing skill that eats 3 slots.

Whatever floats your boat tho,, tastes are tastes. :)

You can still use Battle Standard as a shout warrior (reduced range, but same cooldown and effect).  You can still use a hammer, mace, and/or shield for control.  You can rotate OMM out for Fear Me, losng some healing for more contol, or even another ability alltogether and still maintain 220 HPS.  In that case you lose one utility slot compared to Banner at about the same healing, yet can stack your heals on top of regen form other players.  FGJ is a good buff that is stronger than the strength banner (though on a shorter range to be fair), and if you go soldier runes you can remove conditions as well.

And where are Banner warriors going to get this greater damage boost over shout warriors from if they invest into +healing just as much as a shout warrior.  They can both still use the same weapon sets and have the same stats.

The best part is, you can use your shouts while running around doing whatever it is you do because you literally don't have to stop to do them.  Even planting and picking up a banner takes time you could be doing something else.

I am not saying Shouts invalidate the use of banners, but unless you are right about OMM (and by implication SIO), then they could hardly be dismissed.




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