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Mesmer is really screwed in Dynamic Events

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#1 StaplerPie

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:39 PM

I would say Mesmer is the worst class for Dynamic events.  I'm doing level 80 content in Orr right now, and there are a lot of dynamic events that spawn 2+ huge groups of enemies, so the only way to get loot and exp from all of them is to use 2+ ground targetted AoEs on the groups.  The only ground-targetted AoEs we have are Chaos storm (5 sec duration on a 30 second cooldown) and Mind Stab (tiny, tiny AoE).  Phantasms like Berserker and Warden are extremely unreliable for AoE because you can't control where they go and they often die before they even get their attack off.  Bouncing attacks don't cut it when there's a group of 15+ mobs.

Basically every class can spam AoEs and get loot and exp from 100% of the mobs, but Mesmer has to struggle to get even 50% of the loot.  It makes me feel like I should just roll and Elementalist alt to do dynamic events to get loot for my Mesmer :(

#2 Skyro

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:50 PM

-30 Illusion for IP and Illusionary Elasticity
-20 Power for GS cooldown reduction trait
-20 Precision for Deceptive Evasion or 20 Chaos for staff cooldown reduction trait
-Staff as your weapon swap
-Put Mirror Images as one of your utility skills
-Spam Mirror Blade and shatter skills like a pro
-Thank me later

#3 Spura

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:57 PM

View PostSkyro, on 06 September 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

-30 Illusion for IP and Illusionary Elasticity
-20 Power for GS cooldown reduction trait
-20 Precision for Deceptive Evasion or 20 Chaos for staff cooldown reduction trait
-Staff as your weapon swap
-Put Mirror Images as one of your utility skills
-Spam Mirror Blade and shatter skills like a pro
-Thank me later
This segment can be also be titled:
how to tag maximum number of mobs but not actually contribute anything
or
play a dynamic even spec that is 100% useless outside dynamic events

#4 Green

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:59 PM

Your doing it wrong.

View PostSkyro, on 06 September 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

-30 Illusion for IP and Illusionary Elasticity
-20 Power for GS cooldown reduction trait
-20 Precision for Deceptive Evasion or 20 Chaos for staff cooldown reduction trait
-Staff as your weapon swap
-Put Mirror Images as one of your utility skills
-Spam Mirror Blade and shatter skills like a pro
-Thank me later

This!

#5 StaplerPie

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:00 PM

View PostSpura, on 06 September 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

This segment can be also be titled:
how to tag maximum number of mobs but not actually contribute anything
or
play a dynamic even spec that is 100% useless outside dynamic events

Don't worry, his spec doesn't actually work well for tagging mobs.  Shatter is horrible for tagging mobs because:
1) You can't control where the AoE goes.  It's up to the horrible and buggy AI
2) Shatter often doesn't do enough damage to count as a tag, even with full power/prec build
3) The limiting factor isn't clone generation, but the Mind Wrack cooldown, because the other shatters don't tag mobs
4) By the time the clones reach the mobs to shatter the mobs are usually dead anyways.

#6 Green

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:01 PM

View PostSpura, on 06 September 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

This segment can be also be titled:
how to tag maximum number of mobs but not actually contribute anything
or
play a dynamic even spec that is 100% useless outside dynamic events

Do you even play a Mesmer? Don't bother answering that question, it was rhetorical in nature as I think you are way off.

#7 Skyro

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:13 PM

View PostStaplerPie, on 06 September 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

Don't worry, his spec doesn't actually work well for tagging mobs.  Shatter is horrible for tagging mobs because:
1) You can't control where the AoE goes.  It's up to the horrible and buggy AI
2) Shatter often doesn't do enough damage to count as a tag, even with full power/prec build
3) The limiting factor isn't clone generation, but the Mind Wrack cooldown, because the other shatters don't tag mobs
4) By the time the clones reach the mobs to shatter the mobs are usually dead anyways.

1) Mirror Blade spawns clones next to your target.
2) Your shatters will also apply confusion and might (and vulnerability if you want to trait for it, it's that or Illusion damage, your choice), SIGNIFICANTLY increasing the damage your shatter (and everything else) does.
3) You have a skill called Cry of Frustration. Even one trigger of the confusion is strong. Depending on the DE your are actually doing and the number of people doing it this may or may not happen. But even so, max Illusion means 11.5sec cooldown on Mind Wrack.
4) Also IP shatters around yourself. I hope that you could control where your character is.

View PostSpura, on 06 September 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

This segment can be also be titled:
how to tag maximum number of mobs but not actually contribute anything
or
play a dynamic even spec that is 100% useless outside dynamic events

And this post could be titled:
Person who doesn't know what he is talking about

Since this build is great in both sPvP, dungeons, solo PvE'ing, you name it. Only place where it is bad is zerg-fest WvW.

#8 Straegen

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:20 PM

Bit OT but does wording this as a statement rather than a question really put a lot of people off? I presume that few know every possible way a class works so it would seem that this topic should be in the form of a question. Let me try:

"Hey I cannot seem to tag enough mobs in Orr using my Mesmer. Any suggestions on a mesmer build capable of tagging most creatures in a mob?"

Thoughts?

#9 StaplerPie

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:23 PM

View PostSkyro, on 06 September 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

1) Mirror Blade spawns clones next to your target.
2) Your shatters will also apply confusion and might (and vulnerability if you want to trait for it, it's that or Illusion damage, your choice), SIGNIFICANTLY increasing the damage your shatter (and everything else) does.
3) You have a skill called Cry of Frustration. Even one trigger of the confusion is strong. Depending on the DE your are actually doing and the number of people doing it this may or may not happen. But even so, max Illusion means 11.5sec cooldown on Mind Wrack.
4) Also IP shatters around yourself. I hope that you could control where your character is.

1) No, Mirror Blade spawns clones next to where the mob WAS.  In DEs you'll have a several groups of mobs running towards the zerg, and they'll be dead before they stop moving.
2) Boons and conditions aren't damage, so they won't tag a mob.  You'll be increasing other people's damage with vulnerability, and might won't last long enough to power-up the next shatter.
3) Cry of Frustration sucks.  The mobs won't be attacking (they'll just be running and dying), so you won't even get off one tick of confusion damage.
4) IP is good, but it's not enough.

I'd like to see you make a video using this build and tagging 100% of the mobs in the Gates of Arah event chain.  I doubt you'll even get 25%.  Meanwhile Elementalists are racking up the exp and loot.

View PostStraegen, on 06 September 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

Bit OT but does wording this as a statement rather than a question really put a lot of people off? I presume that few know every possible way a class works so it would seem that this topic should be in the form of a question. Let me try:

"Hey I cannot seem to tag enough mobs in Orr using my Mesmer. Any suggestions on a mesmer build capable of tagging most creatures in a mob?"

Thoughts?

Builds won't help.  Mesmer simply does not have the AoE skills required to compete (yes, DEs are a competition to see who can tag the mobs before they die).

#10 Spura

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:24 PM

View PostSkyro, on 06 September 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:


And this post could be titled:
Person who doesn't know what he is talking about

Since this build is great in both sPvP, dungeons, solo PvE'ing, you name it. Only place where it is bad is zerg-fest WvW.
Yeah, except that I do know. Shatter builds are horrible and they do way worse damage than phantasm builds. And Confusion hits 0.5 times in pve on average, depending on situation. On bosses it's even worse since a lot of bosses attack every 5 seconds or even worse. I'd rather spawn phantasmal warden and do several thousand direct damage and 9 bleed stacks, which do much more damage than any confusion build ever will.

#11 antoninusthepious

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:27 PM

View PostSpura, on 06 September 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

This segment can be also be titled:
how to tag maximum number of mobs but not actually contribute anything
or
play a dynamic even spec that is 100% useless outside dynamic events

well given that you can simply swap traits it shouldn't be that bad.  it will be tied to whatever traits you decide to main on but i dont think it is as bad as you make it sound to be.

#12 Skyro

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:35 PM

View PostStaplerPie, on 06 September 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

1) No, Mirror Blade spawns clones next to where the mob WAS.  In DEs you'll have a several groups of mobs running towards the zerg, and they'll be dead before they stop moving.
2) Boons and conditions aren't damage, so they won't tag a mob.  You'll be increasing other people's damage with vulnerability, and might won't last long enough to power-up the next shatter.
3) Cry of Frustration sucks.  The mobs won't be attacking (they'll just be running and dying), so you won't even get off one tick of confusion damage.
4) IP is good, but it's not enough.

Nobody knows exactly how contribution for DEs is calculated except for ANet, and I don't think they ever explained the mechanics to us. Who knows if buffing teammates or debuffing mobs helps you. I also never really paid attention, but are there different levels of rewards within gold/silver/bronze, or does everybody who got gold is rewarded the same? I don't have problems getting gold if that's what you're asking, but where I am compared to other people who got gold I don't know how to tell. Is it really tagging mobs, or total damage? Who knows. You seem to know. Explain all the mechanics to me. Thanks.

So you're saying the mobs on that particular DE (I don't pay attention to DE names TBH so I don't know which one you are referring to) that the mobs are moving so fast that your clone that spawns next to where he was can't shatter in time. Mirror Blade already does good multi-target damage in itself. Then you have mind stab and chaos storm. And then shatters. You can at least get 1 good shatter off no matter what from mirror Images which spawns 2 clones right next to you.

View PostSpura, on 06 September 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

Yeah, except that I do know. Shatter builds are horrible and they do way worse damage than phantasm builds. And Confusion hits 0.5 times in pve on average, depending on situation. On bosses it's even worse since a lot of bosses attack every 5 seconds or even worse. I'd rather spawn phantasmal warden and do several thousand direct damage and 9 bleed stacks, which do much more damage than any confusion build ever will.

No, you don't. OP is saying mobs die so fast he can't even shatter in time. You think you can summon phantasms in time, and then have them do their attack in time. And then you mention iWarden, whose attack animation is like 2 million years? Sorry, you don't know what you are talking about.

And it's not a confusion build. You simply have the confusion on shatter as a bonus since it is a minor trait in the illusion line. You have no idea what build I am talking about apparently.

#13 MindProd

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 12:32 AM

View PostSkyro, on 06 September 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

I also never really paid attention, but are there different levels of rewards within gold/silver/bronze, or does everybody who got gold is rewarded the same? I don't have problems getting gold if that's what you're asking, but where I am compared to other people who got gold I don't know how to tell. Is it really tagging mobs, or total damage? Who knows. You seem to know. Explain all the mechanics to me. Thanks.
As far as I can tell, there are no different levels within the same tier (ie a good gold and a bad gold) based on my gold rewards repeating the same event. In any case, it's not a matter of simply getting gold. As you said, there's no problem in getting gold. Heck, in timed defend events, just be there for literally half the time killing stuff, and you can do nothing for the remaining half and still get a gold. What I think matters more in DEs is indeed tagging as many mobs as possible. Not for the purpose of DE contribution, but for the purpose of having more to loot.

#14 Skyro

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 12:55 AM

View PostMindProd, on 07 September 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

As far as I can tell, there are no different levels within the same tier (ie a good gold and a bad gold) based on my gold rewards repeating the same event. In any case, it's not a matter of simply getting gold. As you said, there's no problem in getting gold. Heck, in timed defend events, just be there for literally half the time killing stuff, and you can do nothing for the remaining half and still get a gold. What I think matters more in DEs is indeed tagging as many mobs as possible. Not for the purpose of DE contribution, but for the purpose of having more to loot.

Oh I see I misunderstood the OP. I thought he meant the contribution rewards that some group events have, but he's talking about tagging trash mobs to get drops from them. Even so, I have no problem "tagging" the majority of mobs in these wave defense DE's, although it is quite hard to tell exactly how much damage. (or whatever else counts) makes you eligible to drop loot from trash mobs since they don't always drop loot even if you did do enough damage. And if the OP's complaint is that Ele get more loot than him, you can just knock mobs out of Ele's AoE with the GS#5 skill so that they don't get tagged by the Ele either :D

#15 writethemwrong

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 04:17 AM

You could go in melee and just have your melee attacks aoe everything. Blurred frenzy, 2 on sword mh, does damage to mobs around you, easy aoe damage right there.

#16 Carighan

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 05:14 AM

View PostStaplerPie, on 06 September 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

I'd like to see you make a video using this build and tagging 100% of the mobs in the Gates of Arah event chain.  I doubt you'll even get 25%.  Meanwhile Elementalists are racking up the exp and loot.

Ah, so what you're saying is, Elementalists need some balance changes?

View Postwritethemwrong, on 07 September 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

You could go in melee and just have your melee attacks aoe everything. Blurred frenzy, 2 on sword mh, does damage to mobs around you, easy aoe damage right there.

Plus with the Leap you root them, so it's not like they can get away from Frenzy.

Edited by Carighan, 07 September 2012 - 05:15 AM.


#17 Waffleswagon

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 05:20 AM

To OP, I've felt this same way doing dynamic events to level my Mesmer. Hopefully the spec Skyro posted helps me out at max level too?

#18 Xalted

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 05:32 AM

To mass tag mobs just make sure you use shatters on cooldown, especially if you have XI in the Illusion traits. If not, just keep Chaos storm and feedback bubble on cooldown while constantly resummoning and shattering on the mobs with highest health. The AoE damage spread from a shatter will hit all mobs if they are even a dodge roll's distance from a player.

#19 Sebrent_Tehroth

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:54 PM

#1: AOEs only hit a maximum number of 5 mobs

#2: Elementalist AOEs have delays on a large number of them before they hit and/or require channeling ... this doesn't work too well against moving mobs either ... dragon's tooth can't be cast to lead the target.

#3: Take a look at the AOE options of other classes and you'll see they are comparable to the Mesmer. Elementalist has the most, deal with it. They have their own weaknesses

#4: Shatters are great AOE and easy to use if you have half a brain

#5: Staff can be traited to hit up to 3 targets with its auto-attack.

#6: You can trait for clones to apply AOE conditions on death

#7: Greatsword's Mirror Images and Mind Stab are both great at hitting multiple mobs

#8: Phantasmal Warden and Phantasmal Berserker are both great at hitting multiple mobs ... it just *gasp* requires using your brain

#9: Sword is great for hitting multiple mobs, given that you're smart enough to survive melee ... it's not hard, but harder than ranged.

#20 timmyf

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 03:12 PM

Glamour build, bro. Add Feedback and Null Field.

#21 Dastion

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 03:16 PM

All AoEs have a 5 target limit, so you'll need multiple to tag as many mobs as possible.

-Mind Wrack works well enough, it's not near as horrible as you make it out to be.
-Berserker can hit a very wide swathe of enemies, but is also pretty random.  Combining it with a shatter as he positions himself through the group of enemies helps.
-Mind Stab/Chaos Storm are no brainers.
-Staff's WoC and Mirror Blade work okay, especially with the extra bounce trait.  Magic Bullet doesn't deal enough damage to tag, except maybe to the 4th enemy when traited.
-Sword is extremely good at tagging late swathes of enemies.

Just throw 3 iWarlocks up on the boss and you can focus on tagging while they hit for 2.5-4k+ each.

#22 EasymodeX

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 03:38 PM

Don't forget that iBerserker hits 3 times, each hit can tag 5 different mobs.

There's a lot of QQQQ in this thread eh.

#23 Jairyn

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 04:00 PM

I rarely achieve less than gold rewards... Chaos Storm, Feedback, Null Field, and dropping illusions on different targets in diferent places seems to get the job done. I think perhaps people get extra credit for combos?

My standard event/dungeon weapons are now staff and  greatsword for the great bouncing and AoE potential. Illusionary Elasticity rocks.

#24 jondifool

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 04:06 PM

View Posttimmyf, on 07 September 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

Glamour build, bro. Add Feedback and Null Field.
While this might solve the problem, it does actual show that OP has a point, because isn't it a flaw that you actual have to pick certain utillities to cover this particular problem?

#25 MindProd

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 04:15 PM

View PostSebrent_Tehroth, on 07 September 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

#5: Staff can be traited to hit up to 3 targets with its auto-attack.
I never found this reliable since it can just as easily waste a bounce on a friendly instead.

I know the wiki on Bounce says that bounce skills have a separate counter for friend and for foe, but my testing at dummies says otherwise (at least for bot Winds of Chaos and Mirror Blade).

#26 Killua

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 04:16 PM

Throw a warden in one and go Frenzy the other/Normal attack mobs you missed once if tagging is a issue for you. Feedback also counts.

Edited by Killua, 07 September 2012 - 04:17 PM.


#27 Nerathas

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 04:20 PM

Using the great sword alone gives you plenty of AoE damage.
iBerserker, the number 2 and 3 skill.


Off course its not comparable to the elementalist but thats only logical.
But still i have 20 into the power and duel tree and still dishing out a lot of damage.

For every single dynamic i achieved a gold medal with EASE (currently lvl 78) unless i am semi afk.

I pretty much disagree with everything said, you are clearly doing something wrong.

Personally i never found PvE to be hard at all with my mesmer (except in the beta when i had no clue about my class). At this moment i find my mesmer really strong while Pve'ing and can take 3 mobs at once without any problem at all. It does involve a lot more work then any other class though :D

Edited by Nerathas, 07 September 2012 - 04:24 PM.


#28 Lurenai

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 04:23 PM

"Too many quoted blocks of text", wth, forums.

> #2: Elementalist AOEs have delays on a large number of them before they hit and/or require channeling ...
> this doesn't work too well against moving mobs either ... dragon's tooth can't be cast to lead the target.
I don't want Eles to be nerfed, since I consider them the better designed class. However getting tons of AoE with them is easy, even fire and air staff auto-attacks are betyter than most that mesmer has for this job.

> #3: Take a look at the AOE options of other classes and you'll see they are comparable to the Mesmer.
>Elementalist has the most, deal with it. They have their own weaknesses
It's not about eles being nerfed, it's about mesmers don't even getting exp from many mobs with many builds [and you shouldn't be forced to run a specific build, that's against the design of the game].

> #4: Shatters are great AOE and easy to use if you have half a brain
Not really, they have considerate cooldowns and illusions must be near the target. Sometimes mobs die too fast for that. And can we keep discussion polite and civil, please?

> #5: Staff can be traited to hit up to 3 targets with its auto-attack.
Staff is a support weapon, it's damage is laughable.

> #6: You can trait for clones to apply AOE conditions on death
This doesn't happen much with the problem. Mobs will rarely survive long enough to the conditions to do considerable damage.

> #7: Greatsword's Mirror Images and Mind Stab are both great at hitting multiple mobs
Mind stab has a very small area, although the damage is pretty good. Mirror Images isn't a greatsword skill, perhaps you're thinking of  mirror blade? Teaah, it's decent, but one use isn't enough to tag mobs and you don't have enough time for more uses. Using both skills CAN tag mobs with a decent ratio, but as I said, tiny AoE of Mind Stab doesn't help much.

>#8: Phantasmal Warden and Phantasmal Berserker are both great at hitting multiple mobs ... it just *gasp*
> requires using your brain
Why the agressiveness? And warden is horrible, if it isn't insta-killed, it takes ages to cast and the mobs will have advanced.

> #9: Sword is great for hitting multiple mobs, given that you're smart enough to survive melee ... it's not
> hard, but harder than ranged.
When  you get to melee range [even with iLeap] tyhe mobs are already half dead, and many times even a blurred frenzy won't do the job. Sword is a great weapon for sustained damage, but not for combos.

> I rarely achieve less than gold rewards... Chaos Storm, Feedback, Null Field, and dropping illusions on
> different targets in diferent places seems to get the job done. I think perhaps people get extra credit for
> combos?
I don't think this works, once I went with a null-field, feedback, time warp(!!) sword/focus build and didn't even get bronze reward on a champion.

> -Staff's WoC and Mirror Blade work okay, especially with the extra bounce trait.  Magic Bullet doesn't deal
> enough damage to tag, except maybe to the 4th enemy when traited.
As I said, WoC does laughable damage. Mirror Blade is pretty decent though.

> Just throw 3 iWarlocks up on the boss and you can focus on tagging while they hit for 2.5-4k+ each.
That's a pretty decent strategy, but I believe the main problem is the zergfest normal monsters.

Edited by Lurenai, 07 September 2012 - 04:27 PM.


#29 timmyf

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 04:43 PM

View Postjondifool, on 07 September 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

While this might solve the problem, it does actual show that OP has a point, because isn't it a flaw that you actual have to pick certain utillities to cover this particular problem?

I get gold on every event I play - including playing through Teqatl as a level 49 and only able to deliver glancing blows. Now, I play a glamour build OUT OF CHOICE, not because I decided I need to get higher rankings in the events. (I made this choice because I felt that some of the traits synergize well and I felt like Mesmer was weak against large mobs. And I just like playing support.)

Mesmer isn't a strong AoE class, but we have some great support skills. I don't think any class should be better-equipped for events than others, but certain builds will work better than others. You CAN build for DEs/large groups and it works well.

#30 Mick

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 05:06 PM

It's not really an issue of getting gold. It's an issue of not getting as much XP/loot from all of the involved enemies in the event because the system rewards tagging as many mobs as possible over total contribution.

I repeat, it's not an issue of getting gold medals.

Gold medals. Not an issue.





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