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Mesmer is really screwed in Dynamic Events

dynamic events aoe

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#61 CepaCepa

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:36 PM

View PostBrazen_NL, on 18 September 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Was about to say, not like DEs need like a huge amount of planning or team play. Stuff dies anyway since it's usually a zerg.

The situation is, you'd want loot bags from the mobs. Other people zerging doesn't help you, if you don't do enough damage on a certain mob before it dies you don't get credit for it, this means that: a Guardian can net 20 silver from each dynamic event while a mesmer gets 2 silver. If you farm DE at level 80 for karma and/or do a lot of DE in general, it adds up to several gold difference very fast. With the current exchange rate, that's roughly 20 dollars in a few hours simply due to profession differences.

Now you see why it's a problem? :)

#62 Skyro

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:59 PM

View PostCepaCepa, on 19 September 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

The situation is, you'd want loot bags from the mobs. Other people zerging doesn't help you, if you don't do enough damage on a certain mob before it dies you don't get credit for it, this means that: a Guardian can net 20 silver from each dynamic event while a mesmer gets 2 silver. If you farm DE at level 80 for karma and/or do a lot of DE in general, it adds up to several gold difference very fast. With the current exchange rate, that's roughly 20 dollars in a few hours simply due to profession differences.

Now you see why it's a problem? :)

If I were an ANet game designer the problem would be DEs, not that Mesmer's can't tag things fast enough to get loot from every mob. DE's seems to scale well at low numbers but once it gets to the "mass zerg farm-o-rama" the system breaks. They also need to get rid of these DEs that only attack through one point. I just find it kind of funny how instead of people complaining how broken these DEs are they instead complain how they can't get loot from them.

#63 CepaCepa

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:37 PM

View PostSkyro, on 19 September 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

If I were an ANet game designer the problem would be DEs, not that Mesmer's can't tag things fast enough to get loot from every mob. DE's seems to scale well at low numbers but once it gets to the "mass zerg farm-o-rama" the system breaks. They also need to get rid of these DEs that only attack through one point. I just find it kind of funny how instead of people complaining how broken these DEs are they instead complain how they can't get loot from them.

It is because we can think of possible solutions for making mesmers viable in multi-tagging, but even without computer science or statistics background many of us realize subconsciously that it's hard to prevent zerg-fest without making big changes to the system. Should they restrict the number of people in a dynamic event (lots of people would rage I assure you)? Should they scale up all the mobs in the area simply from the number of people present in the area (all kinds of problems and again, lots of raging)? Should they have a "sign up sheet" for events (defeat the purpose of a "dynamic" event)?

It's similar to the problem of keeping streets clean. Technically, if nobody in a city throws garbage on the ground then the streets of that city would be ultra-clean, and they don't even need to hire any cleaning teams. So the root of the problem is people, no doubt. The roots of MANY problems in the world are people. But hopefully everyone realize how difficult it is to change "people", hence it's much easier to just hire a cleaning team to solve this particular problem, or ask the government to put more garbage cans along the street.

And making mesmer's ground target aoe a little bigger is SO much more easier than changing the whole dynamic event structure, and because of that it's that much more likely to be implemented, hence asking for such is more efficient than asking them to "fix half of the game although we don't know how".

Edited by CepaCepa, 19 September 2012 - 08:40 PM.


#64 Skyro

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:45 PM

View PostCepaCepa, on 19 September 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

It is because we can think of possible solutions for making mesmers viable in multi-tagging, but even without computer science or statistics background many of us realize subconsciously that it's hard to prevent zerg-fest without making big changes to the system. Should they restrict the number of people in a dynamic event (lots of people would rage I assure you)? Should they scale up all the mobs in the area simply from the number of people present in the area (all kinds of problems and again, lots of raging)? Should they have a "sign up sheet" for events (defeat the purpose of a "dynamic" event)?

It's similar to the problem of keeping streets clean. Technically, if nobody in a city throws garbage on the ground then the streets of that city would be ultra-clean, and they don't even need to hire any cleaning teams. So the root of the problem is people, no doubt. The roots of MANY problems in the world are people. But hopefully everyone realize how difficult it is to change "people", hence it's much easier to just hire a cleaning team to solve this particular problem, or ask the government to put more garbage cans along the street.

And making mesmer's ground target aoe a little bigger is SO much more easier than changing the whole dynamic event structure, and because of that it's that much more likely to be implemented, hence asking for such is more efficient than asking them to "fix half of the game".

Well first of all I don't think that's the reason the majority of people complain. People complain because they want what other people have/are getting (in this case loot from mobs from DEs). Also I don't think they will increase Mesmer AoE to address this as that would have implications toward other aspects of the game (PvP balance for instance).

Remember that they are have a DE scaling system in place, and I believe for some of these smaller DEs they limit the scaling factor to some level, but for the larger DEs they either don't have a limit or have a much higher limit (e.g. the DEs associated with defending the Temples in Orr). The problem here would be the QA of the scaling effect at these lower DEs.

Secondly it is also bad design of the DEs themselves. There was one in Orr you defend a town where mobs spawn and are actually invulnerable while they all run into one spot, where they then become vulnerable to damage. It's no wonder people farm these DEs. This is simply bad game design.

#65 CepaCepa

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:27 PM

View PostSkyro, on 19 September 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

Well first of all I don't think that's the reason the majority of people complain. People complain because they want what other people have/are getting (in this case loot from mobs from DEs). Also I don't think they will increase Mesmer AoE to address this as that would have implications toward other aspects of the game (PvP balance for instance).

Remember that they are have a DE scaling system in place, and I believe for some of these smaller DEs they limit the scaling factor to some level, but for the larger DEs they either don't have a limit or have a much higher limit (e.g. the DEs associated with defending the Temples in Orr). The problem here would be the QA of the scaling effect at these lower DEs.

Secondly it is also bad design of the DEs themselves. There was one in Orr you defend a town where mobs spawn and are actually invulnerable while they all run into one spot, where they then become vulnerable to damage. It's no wonder people farm these DEs. This is simply bad game design.

The precise mechanism of the DE scaling system is where the complication arises: from what I can tell, they scale up the difficulty by calculating how many different people are hitting the event mobs/boss, basically how many people are involved in combat. Say a mob starts out with 100 hp, two people start hitting it, each takes away 10 hp, the mob would be left at 80%. Then the system calculates the situation and scales up the health pool to 180 total, but it doesn't make sense that the mob's health go back up right? So instead we take that 80%, multiply by 180, the mob now sits at 144 hp, but to our naked eyes we won't be seeing a difference in its hp bar as the green bar doesn't suddenly jump up. It's all very nice and cool.

Now, what happens if that first hit is by, say, 20 people at the same time? The mob simply dies. Or if it survives, it's going to have 5% health left, and no amount of scaling is going to save it from certain death. It also doesn't make sense if all of a sudden the mob's health stops dropping because it's been suddenly scaled up 20 times, so I'm sure they take the derivative somewhere in there too, which ultimately results in trash dying very fast when there are lots of people, regardless of scaling.

Bosses and veterans/champions don't have a problem because they start out really high already, unless you have 100 people hitting it at the same time it will most definitely have time to adjust to the proper level. Trash mobs however, you can't make them strong to begin with or else if 2-3 people are on this event they'd be completely overwhelmed.

So in this situation, you have a few options: faster polling (not even sure if this solves anything major) which sure as hell will burn of lot of CPU from ANet, changing damage calculation structure which then trivializes the whole projectile/combo system, or have DE mobs' health bar jump up and down and up and down as more people join the event, eventually leading to player hostility against each other and many many confused people... As you can see, it's not a straight forward answer.

Personally, if I ever really need to farm for things, I'll probably just grab my Guardian and farm DE on her... It's not like we can only have one character. :)

Edited by CepaCepa, 19 September 2012 - 10:35 PM.


#66 Skyro

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:36 PM

Hmm that is actually quite interesting. Is this just your best guess on how DE's scale based on your experiences? A much better system would be to scale it from the start based on the # of players in the vicinity.

Edited by Skyro, 19 September 2012 - 10:36 PM.


#67 Brazen_NL

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:30 PM

View PostCepaCepa, on 19 September 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

The situation is, you'd want loot bags from the mobs. Other people zerging doesn't help you, if you don't do enough damage on a certain mob before it dies you don't get credit for it, this means that: a Guardian can net 20 silver from each dynamic event while a mesmer gets 2 silver. If you farm DE at level 80 for karma and/or do a lot of DE in general, it adds up to several gold difference very fast. With the current exchange rate, that's roughly 20 dollars in a few hours simply due to profession differences.

Now you see why it's a problem? :)
You misunderstand me. I don't care about planning, since it's not needed for a zerg DE. Just do whatever you can to get loot, be it push them out of AoE, whatever.

#68 CepaCepa

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 06:15 PM

View PostSkyro, on 19 September 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Hmm that is actually quite interesting. Is this just your best guess on how DE's scale based on your experiences? A much better system would be to scale it from the start based on the # of players in the vicinity.

Basically I arrived at these conclusions from the facts that: 1) DE around a town location where lots of people were in its vicinity does not get harder as long as those people do not come out and help 2) Mob's health never go back up because someone decided to join (that would be weird) 3) Using the same hard hitting spell, as more and more people join the event I notice that the mob's health drop slower and slower due to my particular spell attack 4) I don't hit less because other's are joining in, meaning health pool instead of toughness is buffed on the mob 5) As mentioned in point 3 above, (mob's visible proportional health drop) per (attack) decreases over time as more people join in, and this decrease is never a sudden stop (that is, all of the sudden the mob's health doesn't drop at 50%), but rather gradual, implying that there is a rate limit associated with it. 6) Bosses have high base hp even in soloing, where trash don't; bosses have less problem in DE, where trash do.

But without confirmation from ANet, of course this is just at best an educated guess lol.

As for scaling simply from the number of people in the vicinity, this creates problems such as 1) some people are simply doing other things/not helping/afk and making it hard for the others, especially around towns/waypoints etc. 2) It's probably way more computationally intensive to constantly polling and trying to get the number of people in the area (that is, every single mob out there now has to constantly have its health pool readjusted as people walk by), instead of doing so reactively and rely on incoming damage to a few objects in a given situation (combat).

However, we're just sitting here guessing, I'm sure the system designers at ANet have thought about it a lot more than we have and had to make tough calls between potential problem A and potential problem B. I guess for us mesmers the easiest ways out are to take things into our own hands: make a Guardian alt for farming only, or maximize our profession's burst aoe potential to tag those pesky mobs. :)

#69 Skyro

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 06:54 PM

View PostCepaCepa, on 20 September 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Basically I arrived at these conclusions from the facts that: 1) DE around a town location where lots of people were in its vicinity does not get harder as long as those people do not come out and help 2) Mob's health never go back up because someone decided to join (that would be weird) 3) Using the same hard hitting spell, as more and more people join the event I notice that the mob's health drop slower and slower due to my particular spell attack 4) I don't hit less because other's are joining in, meaning health pool instead of toughness is buffed on the mob 5) As mentioned in point 3 above, (mob's visible proportional health drop) per (attack) decreases over time as more people join in, and this decrease is never a sudden stop (that is, all of the sudden the mob's health doesn't drop at 50%), but rather gradual, implying that there is a rate limit associated with it. 6) Bosses have high base hp even in soloing, where trash don't; bosses have less problem in DE, where trash do.

But without confirmation from ANet, of course this is just at best an educated guess lol.

As for scaling simply from the number of people in the vicinity, this creates problems such as 1) some people are simply doing other things/not helping/afk and making it hard for the others, especially around towns/waypoints etc. 2) It's probably way more computationally intensive to constantly polling and trying to get the number of people in the area (that is, every single mob out there now has to constantly have its health pool readjusted as people walk by), instead of doing so reactively and rely on incoming damage to a few objects in a given situation (combat).

However, we're just sitting here guessing, I'm sure the system designers at ANet have thought about it a lot more than we have and had to make tough calls between potential problem A and potential problem B. I guess for us mesmers the easiest ways out are to take things into our own hands: make a Guardian alt for farming only, or maximize our profession's burst aoe potential to tag those pesky mobs. :)

I see. But as for my suggestion about scaling based on vicinity I meant it would only do a 1-time check for scaling as the DE starts, not continually scale as more or less people enter the area. If people are AFK or not helping for whatever reason I think that will actually be a positive. It will cause a greater sense of urgency to help complete the DE in your area and also cause more DEs to fail which opens up different DE chains which rarely occur since DEs are currently too easy. I think that feeling holding on for dear life defending a town and slowly being overwhelmed by waves of mobs and then suddenly being saved at the last minute as a group of players arrive to save you at the last minute... those are the kind of scenarios I think were the original vision for DEs.

#70 CepaCepa

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 04:31 PM

View PostSkyro, on 20 September 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

I see. But as for my suggestion about scaling based on vicinity I meant it would only do a 1-time check for scaling as the DE starts, not continually scale as more or less people enter the area. If people are AFK or not helping for whatever reason I think that will actually be a positive. It will cause a greater sense of urgency to help complete the DE in your area and also cause more DEs to fail which opens up different DE chains which rarely occur since DEs are currently too easy. I think that feeling holding on for dear life defending a town and slowly being overwhelmed by waves of mobs and then suddenly being saved at the last minute as a group of players arrive to save you at the last minute... those are the kind of scenarios I think were the original vision for DEs.

A one time check at the beginning sounds like a good idea, especially if they put some kind of scaling on it to eliminate extremes; I don't know if they already do that but they should consider that if they haven't got it already.

Although I did experience many times "holding on for dear life and come a group of people to my rescue", and that felt amazing, like all those effort I pulled off were meant for something. The reverse is true too, it feels great to go in there and save some lives. For most DEs this actually isn't a problem, these situations happen quite frequently. It's just more of a problem in Orr where it is significantly harder to finish some events by yourself, hence people tend to join huge zerg.

#71 Jobuu

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 04:40 PM

Another question for me is, has anyone ever failed a DE? I mean as in a total wipe resulting in people shouting "hey some big boss DE, need help". I've never seen this which tells me DEs are still too easy. Just throw a bunch of people in the area and bash face into keyboard = win. Maybe that changes at a higher level but I haven't seen it yet.

#72 Harper

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 05:53 PM

I've been in a number of failed DEs.  Usually it is from too few players or players inexperienced with the DE.  These are actually my favorite ones, where it is a challenge to complete, rather than a challenge to tag.

1)  Undead attacking wardens in the swamp, level 25ish, only 3 defenders
We got schooled before we really realized what hit us.  Those risen were much tougher than expected.
2)  Power plant clean up final boss (huge fire elemental) in the 2nd Asura area
The final boss spawned many many adds and lots of AoE fire spots.  When you got downed, you were assured of dying quickly.
3)  Centaur boss in Harathi area
This guy has a bunch of AoE attacks and annoying invulnerable whirlwind pets that interrupt and fling you.  The DE can turn badly once a critical mass of players get one-shotted.  The nearest waypoint is a long ways off if the close one is contested (which I think it is during centaur boss fight)  So I've seen this one given up on.

--Harper

#73 Jobuu

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 06:05 PM

Well, maybe mobs could spawn with a "jedi invisible force bubble" (some type of buffer shield) - right now DE mobs usually spawn a little bit away from the event as invulnerable then walk to where they will end up. This shield bubble thing would be on a small timer 5-10 seconds (add mobs talking/taunting etc.. for story effect) where it's actually keeping track of people doing damage to it allowing better tracking of who's actually participating in the event = helping everyone and not unbalancing anyone either.

no changes to any character profession, graphics, or whatever - all invisible to everyone

Edited by Jobuu, 21 September 2012 - 06:07 PM.


#74 Lemuux

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:21 PM

best way: make an engi and just move arround with the bomb set auto

#75 Dixa

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:37 PM

engineer is really the only class that can do DE"s in full magic find gear and not be overly punished in the 'tagging everything' department. longbow warriors and ele's as well, but not as good as grenade tossing engineers.

#76 chuckles79

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:49 PM

as a rule, most classes do NOT have more than a couple of ranged AoE skills.

Rangers have barrage, Warrior has Longbow Adrenal, necromancer have wells, etc.

If you want to do the damage of an elementalist, then play an elementalist.

Otherwise, recognize what your profession is best at and do that.  There have been suggestions on making sure you tag enough enemies, as well as suggestions on how to boost overall damage output.

If you just want to QQ about mesmer not being an elementalist then create a thread called that.

Edited by chuckles79, 10 October 2012 - 06:49 PM.


#77 Jobuu

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:26 PM

i dont think anyone is saying that. "tagging" is a stupid way to determine if someone is participating equally in an event. I remember wow had issues with healers not getting credit since they didn't "kill" anyone. there needs to be a timer per person per area and if they're in combat. that's all - everyone wins since loot is instanced

#78 Lastchime

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:44 PM

View PostJobuu, on 10 October 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

i dont think anyone is saying that. "tagging" is a stupid way to determine if someone is participating equally in an event. I remember wow had issues with healers not getting credit since they didn't "kill" anyone. there needs to be a timer per person per area and if they're in combat. that's all - everyone wins since loot is instanced

  Just pay out using the little chests that are already on some DEs/champions, like a dragon chest, but a little less swag.

#79 Yasma

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:40 AM

View PostLastchime, on 10 October 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

  Just pay out using the little chests that are already on some DEs/champions, like a dragon chest, but a little less swag.

This pretty much seems like the best idea - have DE spawns not drop loot but always have some sort of chest with reward based on participation,  not luck or aoe ability as lets face it,  pretty much all DEs in Orr have turned into AoE zergfests now.

#80 Mind Wrack

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:50 AM

Late to the party but -

How does Null Field tag mobs? I'm interested in the Glamour build mentioned.

I use Null Field all the time in dungeons but mainly for condition removal. I thought it removed boons from mobs, not dealing damage. Is that enough to tag something?

#81 SimplyAlways

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:33 AM

View PostStaplerPie, on 06 September 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

I would say Mesmer is the worst class for Dynamic events.  I'm doing level 80 content in Orr right now, and there are a lot of dynamic events that spawn 2+ huge groups of enemies, so the only way to get loot and exp from all of them is to use 2+ ground targetted AoEs on the groups.  The only ground-targetted AoEs we have are Chaos storm (5 sec duration on a 30 second cooldown) and Mind Stab (tiny, tiny AoE).  Phantasms like Berserker and Warden are extremely unreliable for AoE because you can't control where they go and they often die before they even get their attack off.  Bouncing attacks don't cut it when there's a group of 15+ mobs.

Basically every class can spam AoEs and get loot and exp from 100% of the mobs, but Mesmer has to struggle to get even 50% of the loot.  It makes me feel like I should just roll and Elementalist alt to do dynamic events to get loot for my Mesmer :(

tip 1: 10/30/0/0/30
tip 2: l2p
tip 3: reroll if u still cant tag

#82 tufy

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:26 AM

First, elementalists aren't as awesome as this thread makes it appear, because the vast majority of their AoE is delayed. In my own experience, the most powerful AoE grinding spec for elementalists is Lightning Hammer build, which is still rarely used, but has a considerable amount of instant cleave/AoE. Staff and Scepter/Dagger fall far behind due to delays (think how many times you've seen that Dragon Tooth drop long after the mobs have been steamrolled by the zerg), whereas Dagger/Dagger fares a bit better. Note: this doesn't mean Staff isn't capable of some insane AoE, it just isn't capable of insane AoE instantly, which matters for DE. There's no matching the staff in WvW or against AC burrows.

Second, Mesmer AoE is fine. Personally, I'm using double sword / GS heavy power/precision build and never had issues getting 50%+ mobs per wave, even with full magic find gear, which deals quite a bit less damage than my maximum potential. In other words: if your build doesn't work, try something else, eventually you'll find what you're looking for.

One other thing - don't underestimate shatters. They aren't available often, but used at the right time, they can do one hell of tagging on their own.





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