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Power VS Precision VS Condition Damage


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#1 3py0n

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 04:18 AM

Hi all,

So I've finally reached lvl20! Yay...been working so yea...don't hate.

I am just trying to get a grasp on a few things and the stats-to-go-for at an elementalist.

I realized that precision was pretty good as I was able to get almost 50% crit rate! However, I soon realized when I went to an area where with my true level, my crit rate went down to 41% from 49%.  Is this due to the fact that precision and the amount of crit rate it gives is proportional/influenced by your effective level?

And while on this topic, how well does condition damage help you if say, you are going for a fire based build S/D?  Compared to pure power.  I don't have the resources to try to have different sets of gear to test this theory out...but after pumping precision on almost all my gear I seem to fluctuate between 41% and 49% all the time...not sure if the investment was worth it to be honest.  Though when it crits, it's nice.  Or is the trade off now as good as pure power (more consistent damage)

Please lemme know :)

#2 Rainsford2

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:24 AM

I explained in another thread, but precision takes a back seat while leveling thanks to your awful crit multiplier options at lower levels. Condition damage is nice, but unless your putting on bleed ~and~ burn every fight, your wasting it. Add to that a s/d playstyle is focused on burning your target and condition damage has even less time to be effective. So, for the most part, I'd suggest sticking with power+defensive stats to keep yourself from getting blown up.

The higher level you get, however, the more important precision/crit damage becomes thanks to the better availability of crit damage. But, for the most part, your gear being up to your level is going to be more important than min-maxing until 80. Except, of course, for magic find which is always pretty useless (food gives way more than your gear can and is still a pretty negligible difference).

#3 Verificus

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 07:17 AM

I don't agree. I reworked my own build yesterday. I'm now 20 fire/20 earth/10 water and I fully geared for toughness and vitality. I went with condition dmg + bleed duration runes and condition stacking sigil.
S/D, primarily earth attuned and I can take on entire groups, I pull a group, put down some cc and simply run around waiting for Churning Earth to bleed down all of em. If a few happen to survive ill just pick em off the auto-attack, which is actually a decent one. I have no idea how this build will work at lvl 80, but right now it works like a charm. I don't even know what squishy means anymore. The build is a bit harder to play then direct damage though, I'll grant people that. It requires getting off CE and alot of bleed/burn tabbing of foes. If one has trouble with that, they might find this build a bit underpowered for good consistent damage.

#4 Quotheraving

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 07:35 AM

View PostVerificus, on 07 September 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

I don't agree. I reworked my own build yesterday. I'm now 20 fire/20 earth/10 water and I fully geared for toughness and vitality. I went with condition dmg + bleed duration runes and condition stacking sigil.
S/D, primarily earth attuned and I can take on entire groups, I pull a group, put down some cc and simply run around waiting for Churning Earth to bleed down all of em. If a few happen to survive ill just pick em off the auto-attack, which is actually a decent one. I have no idea how this build will work at lvl 80, but right now it works like a charm. I don't even know what squishy means anymore. The build is a bit harder to play then direct damage though, I'll grant people that. It requires getting off CE and alot of bleed/burn tabbing of foes. If one has trouble with that, they might find this build a bit underpowered for good consistent damage.
I'm doing the exact same thing myself though with a S/F build. Even lacking CE I do pretty well mainly using an Earth elemental or 2 to run interference while I stack a couple of targets with conditions.
Where the Conditions build really shines though is against high armor, high health targets such as world bosses and higher level mobs since the conditions can really be stacked up and have time to do their work... You won't be killing things as fast as a pure power build but you can kill pretty much anything you can kite that isn't completely immune to your attacks.

Edited by Quotheraving, 07 September 2012 - 07:35 AM.


#5 aguliondew

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 09:37 AM

View PostRainsford2, on 07 September 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

Except, of course, for magic find which is always pretty useless (food gives way more than your gear can and is still a pretty negligible difference).

That is not true at high levels. If you are gearing for magic find you can get upto 36% on armor, 30% on accessories, 24% on weapons (assuming you have major sigil of luck fully stacked on one of your 2 weapons), and 50% from runes. That is a total of 140% magic find from gear. The most magic find you can get from food is 40% from a level 80 item. As far as magic find being useless I get more items with it than without. During the event bosses every other mob drops a crafting item. The Auction House/Trading post is how most players will makes their money so having more items to sell will increase your gold in the long run.

Edited by aguliondew, 07 September 2012 - 09:38 AM.


#6 Wildclaw

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 12:40 PM

View Postaguliondew, on 07 September 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

That is not true at high levels. If you are gearing for magic find you can get upto 36% on armor, 30% on accessories, 24% on weapons (assuming you have major sigil of luck fully stacked on one of your 2 weapons), and 50% from runes.

60% from runes actually. You can go 5 Pirate/1 Traveler.

#7 3py0n

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 01:59 PM

Hrmmm...

I take it condition damage is different from bleeding?  or no :o And I don't do much switching atm...unless I'm in a party or boss fight then I'll switch lol...maybe cause I'm too lazy.

Guess for now I'll drop precision gear for pure power until I think I need more vit or toughness.

Oh yea on that topic, which is better invested.  Please note i'm only lvl20 so talking about you being at lvl50 does little to explain to me and others who are starting out, how effective a stat is early on :)  

I always thought vit was a better investment than toughness.

#8 Necro

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:38 PM

conditions consists of every debuff from confuse to vunerability to bleeding

#9 3py0n

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:43 PM

ahhh makes sense...regardless I'll prob. go for power first cause I'm unsure if an item that gives +10 condition damage is straight up 10 more damage after the formula or before, etc...did not even notice too much after I put in +30 more condition.

Can someone clear this up?

#10 Rainsford2

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 03:09 PM

View Postaguliondew, on 07 September 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

That is not true at high levels. If you are gearing for magic find you can get upto 36% on armor, 30% on accessories, 24% on weapons (assuming you have major sigil of luck fully stacked on one of your 2 weapons), and 50% from runes. That is a total of 140% magic find from gear.

I was talking about while leveling, but it still feels real useless.I was using a full level 80 rare explorers set with Omnom Bars and Pirate runes and, when I eventually switched to my exotic berserkers set, I feel like I my drop rates are the same. I get a few less junk items, but my exotic/rare drop rate is the same, and that's with an almost 100% drop in magic find. At lower levels, using magic find gear is super blah.

#11 Quotheraving

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 05:14 PM

View Post3py0n, on 07 September 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

ahhh makes sense...regardless I'll prob. go for power first cause I'm unsure if an item that gives +10 condition damage is straight up 10 more damage after the formula or before, etc...did not even notice too much after I put in +30 more condition.

Can someone clear this up?

Bleeding ticks are calculated as 2.5 + 0.5 * Level + 0.05 * Condition Damage per stack per second

Burning ticks are calculated as  4.1 * Level + 0.25 * Condition Damage per second

So with 0 condition damage at lvl 60 bleeding will tick for ... 32.5 per stack per second
with 200 condition damage at the same level it becomes ... 42.5 per stack per second

Lets say you hit causing a 6 second bleed, that will deliver 195 damage over it's duration with 0 CD
With 200 CD that becomes 255 damage

In PVE you will want your bleeds to run on as long as possible, so let's say you have a 50% duration increase through talents, runes and the like this becomes.... 292.5 damage with 0 CD or 382.5 with 200 CD

This may seem weak but unlike ordinary damage Condition damage (Burning, Bleeding, Confusion) is not mitigated by armor.

Edited by Quotheraving, 07 September 2012 - 05:15 PM.


#12 Murmer

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:12 PM

View PostQuotheraving, on 07 September 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

Bleeding ticks are calculated as 2.5 + 0.5 * Level + 0.05 * Condition Damage per stack per second

Burning ticks are calculated as  4.1 * Level + 0.25 * Condition Damage per second

So with 0 condition damage at lvl 60 bleeding will tick for ... 32.5 per stack per second
with 200 condition damage at the same level it becomes ... 42.5 per stack per second

Lets say you hit causing a 6 second bleed, that will deliver 195 damage over it's duration with 0 CD
With 200 CD that becomes 255 damage

In PVE you will want your bleeds to run on as long as possible, so let's say you have a 50% duration increase through talents, runes and the like this becomes.... 292.5 damage with 0 CD or 382.5 with 200 CD

This may seem weak but unlike ordinary damage Condition damage (Burning, Bleeding, Confusion) is not mitigated by armor.

Thank you, you hit the nail on the bean.

And of course ideally you'd want to keep your targets bleeding and burning by switching through your attunments appropriately. In this way, the damage doesn't stop.

Ideally you don't want to forsake power in any case whether you take precision or conditioning. I run a lot of conditioning gear now, and my damage is rather lovely. My bleed ticks are 25 per tick, per stack. When I manage to get 10 bleeds or more on a mob, it gets fun. Having a burn there as well? Priceless.

#13 Necro

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:26 PM

my problem is i seem to be finding a lot of gear with +condition damage AND +perception, from what i understand conditions can't crit therefor making the perception useless? (i have yet to find any gear with +power and + condition dmg)

#14 3py0n

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 08:01 PM

oh wow that explains it :) But I think at my level I can't get enough condition damage to make it worth while...if I got +10 on each piece I'd still only get at most like +70...so that'd only be like an additional 17.5 per tick and over the course of say...6s, it's only 105dmg so doesn't really help at my level (20).

Thanks though :) I feel it will be a better investment when I'm around 40 or so.

#15 Quotheraving

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:28 PM

View Post3py0n, on 07 September 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

oh wow that explains it :) But I think at my level I can't get enough condition damage to make it worth while...if I got +10 on each piece I'd still only get at most like +70...so that'd only be like an additional 17.5 per tick and over the course of say...6s, it's only 105dmg so doesn't really help at my level (20).

Thanks though :) I feel it will be a better investment when I'm around 40 or so.
You are absolutely correct. Different builds come into their own at different levels, at lvl 20 Conditions aren't so good as your base damage is still relatively high compared to what CD can offer, while at around lvl 30-40 the numbers available from CD start becoming significant and at around this level gear for Cd is readily available.
Around lvl 55 precision (I assume you mean this and not perception Necro) starts being pushed at us in gear, which makes me wonder if the coefficients for precision don't start to make themselves felt at around this level too.

My suggestion is that if you want to kill lots of mobs fast go for power / precision, while if you want to go for more challenging mobs or to play in higher level zones I'd suggest going for Cd, ultimately it comes down to a matter of personal preference.

Edited by Quotheraving, 07 September 2012 - 10:32 PM.


#16 Necro

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:48 PM

don't forget if u go 30 into earth you get a cool 300 condition damage and toughness to boot!

#17 3py0n

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 01:52 PM

but if you go full in earth, how much does it improve your defense?  Say at level 40 you have 30 in earth, what % difference would it make or do you have an example of numbers?

#18 BlackCephie

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 09:54 PM

My weapon build of choice is S/D, which has a ton of conditions. You've got lots of burns, some major bleeds, plus vulnerability and two blinds. Not sure if condition duration effects knockdown but I think it does. You have two knockdowns in S/D. That being said, I am currently lvl 44 and am specing for conditional damage and duration mainly. My question is would it be worth/viable to spec some in precision/crit? I ask because heavy hitters like dragon tooth and churning earth have really nice initial burst as well as the burn and bleed, so I figure having some crit would make you a powerhouse in all respects if you already have great conditional damageand duration. Also think its worth mentioning that your overall power scales off of cd and precision so is it fair to say that power can pretty much be put to the side at high level if you are building heavy in the former or latter?

#19 Murmer

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 07:19 AM

View Post3py0n, on 08 September 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

but if you go full in earth, how much does it improve your defense?  Say at level 40 you have 30 in earth, what % difference would it make or do you have an example of numbers?

You can't get 30 in earth by level 40. The books won't let you.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited by Murmer, 09 September 2012 - 07:19 AM.


#20 kalendraf

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 01:15 PM

View PostMurmer, on 09 September 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

You can't get 30 in earth by level 40. The books won't let you.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
You are correct.  At level 40, you only have access to the Master book that allows up to 20 points in a trait.  You need to be level 60 before you can use the Grandmaster book that allows the full 30 points in a trait.

#21 3py0n

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 02:49 PM

oh my mistake.

But yesterday I was fighting some higher level mobs and it really became apparent how squishy I was...though it's rare of me to die in a 1v1...i was faching a Champion bandit something yesterday and switched to earth for some fun and I kept seeing a ton of bleeding damage...the number 14 kept spilling out of him at a pretty fast rate! Though looks cool and makes me think I'm doing a ton of damage, I don't think I was...

Sigh...right now I am at 8fire and 5 air (lvl23)...
power 391
precision 241
toughness 148
vitality 158

#22 Murmer

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 03:20 PM

View Post3py0n, on 09 September 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

oh my mistake.

But yesterday I was fighting some higher level mobs and it really became apparent how squishy I was...though it's rare of me to die in a 1v1...i was faching a Champion bandit something yesterday and switched to earth for some fun and I kept seeing a ton of bleeding damage...the number 14 kept spilling out of him at a pretty fast rate! Though looks cool and makes me think I'm doing a ton of damage, I don't think I was...

Sigh...right now I am at 8fire and 5 air (lvl23)...
power 391
precision 241
toughness 148
vitality 158

If you want to be ridiculous, stack yourself with condition damage and power, with some vit & toughness secondaries. I find that gearing for Vitality and Toughness, and running the earth signet, is actually helping me live through some rather wild encounters.

Currently, my bleeds go at 25 per tick. Which is... nice when you get upwards of 10 bleed stacks and burning at the same time.

#23 3py0n

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:58 PM

View PostMurmer, on 09 September 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

If you want to be ridiculous, stack yourself with condition damage and power, with some vit & toughness secondaries. I find that gearing for Vitality and Toughness, and running the earth signet, is actually helping me live through some rather wild encounters.

Currently, my bleeds go at 25 per tick. Which is... nice when you get upwards of 10 bleed stacks and burning at the same time.

but what level are you at?  I'm only like 27 lol

#24 Murmer

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 01:16 AM

View Post3py0n, on 11 September 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

but what level are you at?  I'm only like 27 lol

I meant to update that... but actually right now my bleed damage is at about 35 per tick. And at the moment I'm at level 41. At the time of that post, I was level 38.

#25 3py0n

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:32 PM

View PostMurmer, on 12 September 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

I meant to update that... but actually right now my bleed damage is at about 35 per tick. And at the moment I'm at level 41. At the time of that post, I was level 38.

Ahhh I see.  I shall try it when I'm around that level :)

I'm actually liking air now just cause the damage is so much more consistent than fire...that and it's a change of pace from ~20 levels of fire.

#26 Murmer

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:35 PM

View Post3py0n, on 12 September 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

Ahhh I see.  I shall try it when I'm around that level :)

I'm actually liking air now just cause the damage is so much more consistent than fire...that and it's a change of pace from ~20 levels of fire.

Actually I use D/D personally. So most of the air things in that set are to assist evasion and travel times... and stuns. Mostly, D/D is probably the best for PvP (Not WvW though, maybe).

#27 Anam Itheoir

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 05:47 PM

View Post3py0n, on 12 September 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

Ahhh I see.  I shall try it when I'm around that level :)

I'm actually liking air now just cause the damage is so much more consistent than fire...that and it's a change of pace from ~20 levels of fire.

Heh, I hate air, fire is easily more powerful, but I am like you I transition what I use.  I would recommend giving earth a try even at 27.  Water doesn't get strong until around 40 or 50 and only if you have around 40 percent crit.  

My earth bleeds at 62 with 0 condition damage tick for 51 which is the same that they ticked at lvl 30-40 with full condition gear.  

If you prefer air run scepter/Dagger as scepter air is very nice.  As for being unable to kill a champion, don't worry about it.  no one can solo a champion :P.  Now a veteran you should be able to kite to death.

The key is using your Stuns, dodges, and abilities to avoid major hits.  You will never be able to stand and fight like a warrior or guardian.

View PostMurmer, on 12 September 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

Actually I use D/D personally. So most of the air things in that set are to assist evasion and travel times... and stuns. Mostly, D/D is probably the best for PvP (Not WvW though, maybe).

D/D is awful for WvWvW.  WvWvW is rough without range.




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