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Flamethrower just got nerfed

nerf flamethrower

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#1 turbear

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 07:38 AM

The Juggernaut trait, final tier in firearms line, used to give perma-stability while also perma-crippling you.  Now it instead gives 1 stack of might lasting 15 seconds every 3 seconds.  This would be useful if running around with a flamethrower constantly out was viable.  In reality the engineer needs to be able to switch in and out of kits quickly and constantly so 1 or maybe 2 stacks of might is all you're going to be able to get before you have to switch back to a weapon whose abilities are not on cooldown.

There goes my favorite PvP build :(

#2 Merryem

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 07:41 AM

Yeah it was a bit of a blow to the Point Defense engineers. :/

#3 Berlus

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:54 AM

serious? so they nerfed a trait which most engineer don´t use and something like ridiculous heartseeker spam of thief which 90% of the thiefs use still exist?! thats funny

Edited by Berlus, 08 September 2012 - 08:54 AM.


#4 Amschel

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 09:05 AM

View PostBerlus, on 08 September 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

serious? so they nerfed a trait which most engineer don´t use and something like ridiculous heartseeker spam of thief which 90% of the thiefs use still exist?! thats funny

Agreed, Juggernaut was one of the few reasons that actually made flamethrower viable. its extremely dissapointing to see it get nerfed while perma heartseeker and 3 second death warriors (if you don't manage to dodge it) are still around.

#5 Berlus

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 09:57 AM

Tested it....you can get 5-6 stacks of might permanent and the 50% speed penalty is gone! Not that bad....

Edited by Berlus, 08 September 2012 - 09:58 AM.


#6 Inui

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:25 AM

This makes me sad :( No more free kills with stability

#7 Aitchkay

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 01:22 PM

We all knew it would happen when Foot in the Grave got nerfed to a 3 second stability.  Changing it to might stacks is pretty terrible though.

#8 Adakias

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 01:57 PM

Wow...I just...what...why??? It's the only thing that made flamethrower useful...high toughness and stability for point defense. What reason would I ever cripple my distance to that close with offensive bonuses instead of defense? Unless they cranked up the damage, my alt might be my new main :(

#9 Dz131

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 02:37 PM

Yeah..I don't see why this skill got the axe, it lets you sit on a point against 1 maybe 2 people (if they're bad), which is what it's designed to do and is super weak againest cond dmg.  It doesn't give you got mode, far from it, in a class that's not even remotely top tier.  Now Arenanet does a total 180 on it and makes it a roaming skill.  Arenanet already choking in the balance patches.  Re-rolling thief right now.

Edited by Dz131, 08 September 2012 - 02:38 PM.


#10 turbear

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 06:10 PM

View PostAitchkay, on 08 September 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

We all knew it would happen when Foot in the Grave got nerfed to a 3 second stability.  Changing it to might stacks is pretty terrible though.

Agree, although Foot in the Grave has no drawback whereas we were perma-snared which is reasonable (esp since flamethrower is a close range weapon).

There are plenty of builds that need balancing more than this.  I remember right after realizing this, a hundred blades warrior came up to me in sPvP and took my entire health bar in 2.5 seconds because I didn't have a stun breaker up.  How silly.

#11 Isms

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 07:04 PM

I actually think it was beyond overpowered. But I'm still sad that we got a taste of it and now it's gone :(. Lost a few tournaments today because I didn't realize the change.

#12 Xaragoth

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 07:13 PM

This was clearly something to try and make Flamethrower a lot more viable in PvE. I am happy, since I primarily play with the Flamethrower on my Charr Engineer for PvE and this change is awesome for that :)

The problem here is the same as with other MMOs though: If PvE and PvP share skills and traits, it becomes shit for people playing primarily the opposite. Which we have now. The Trait was actually really balanced, since you could easily be kited without dealing any damage, robbing you of any way to fight back at all. Now it's semi-good in PvP, while it's wonderful in PvE.

Edited by Xaragoth, 08 September 2012 - 07:14 PM.


#13 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 07:42 PM

View PostAmschel, on 08 September 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

Agreed, Juggernaut was one of the few reasons that actually made flamethrower viable. its extremely dissapointing to see it get nerfed while perma heartseeker and 3 second death warriors (if you don't manage to dodge it) are still around.

A hundred times this. WTF.

#14 Baughbright

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:42 PM

Why are people acting all surprised by this?  They said months ago when they originally made some of the changes to flamethrower that they wanted it to be a damage kit, not a defensive kit.  And Juggernaut is located on the top of the crit/condition damage line.

#15 Mianhe

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 10:45 PM

Don't try to justify the fact that Flamethrower's on-demand perma stability made the kit a finish-ressing tool with no counterplay just because Heartseeker's values are off.

Heartseeker has an issue regarding it's damage output. Flamethrower's issue was the fact that the stability itself from the trait was permanent, no amount of boonstripping would get rid of it as it will pulse back up. I'm well aware many builds were not even surrounding said trait, but as said before, the kit's original design is meant to be offensive, not a one-trick pony that only comes out when you want to res/finish people.

#16 Kraag_Deadsoul

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 10:58 PM

View PostMerryem, on 08 September 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

Yeah it was a bit of a blow to the Point Defense engineers. :/

View PostAdakias, on 08 September 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Wow...I just...what...why??? It's the only thing that made flamethrower useful...high toughness and stability for point defense. What reason would I ever cripple my distance to that close with offensive bonuses instead of defense? Unless they cranked up the damage, my alt might be my new main :(

View PostBaughbright, on 08 September 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

Why are people acting all surprised by this?  They said months ago when they originally made some of the changes to flamethrower that they wanted it to be a damage kit, not a defensive kit.  And Juggernaut is located on the top of the crit/condition damage line.

View PostMianhe, on 08 September 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

I'm well aware many builds were not even surrounding said trait, but as said before, the kit's original design is meant to be offensive, not a one-trick pony that only comes out when you want to res/finish people.

One of ArenaNet's design mantras is offense is greater than defense.  Any skill or trait that leads to players camping a spot and/or making themselves permanently immune to certain conditions, effects, and/or damage is going to get nerfed.  If you find a combination of skills and/or traits that lead to a defense-heavy build, best not to become too attached to it as it's a likely candidate for future nerfing.  Not saying don't play it; just don't be surprised if a few weeks or months later it's nerfed.

#17 Cutwolf

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:00 PM

God the crying over heartseeker is absurd.



#18 Grenx Blastermind

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:23 PM

Did they announce this change somewhere?

#19 Kraag_Deadsoul

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:27 PM

View PostGrenx Blastermind, on 08 September 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

Did they announce this change somewhere?

https://forum-en.gui...first#post32760

#20 Maal

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 05:01 AM

So, except throwing an elixir with a random chance and elixir X (i think), what stability do engy have now?

Edited by Maal, 09 September 2012 - 05:01 AM.


#21 bobjohn

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 05:13 AM

there doesn't to be many different engineer builds which are uniquely different.  bomb kit dps is horrendously low, and is there any engineer build that actually works well as a glass cannon nuke? NO. seriously almost all engineer builds have pointsinto toughness. the condition builds are terrible

#22 Bactyrael

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 05:17 AM

View PostMianhe, on 08 September 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

Don't try to justify the fact that Flamethrower's on-demand perma stability made the kit a finish-ressing tool with no counterplay just because Heartseeker's values are off.

Heartseeker has an issue regarding it's damage output. Flamethrower's issue was the fact that the stability itself from the trait was permanent, no amount of boonstripping would get rid of it as it will pulse back up. I'm well aware many builds were not even surrounding said trait, but as said before, the kit's original design is meant to be offensive, not a one-trick pony that only comes out when you want to res/finish people.
This

#23 Berlus

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 10:59 AM

View PostMianhe, on 08 September 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:



Heartseeker has an issue regarding it's damage output.
Thats not true...the problem is that you can spam this shit and you dont need any skill doing this but thats off topic

#24 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 04:38 PM

The good thing is that now I am free to try builds not including juggernaut. Previously it was so good whenever I ran a build that didn't have it I felt gimped. And honestly, it was OP. It rendered all downed skills besides teleport ones useless, and people would need to burst me down fast to hinder me from killing downed enemies.

The might is actually kinda nice because you can unequip the flamethrower and still have 15 seconds of might stacks, but I'd wish it'd stack higher than 5.





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