36 replies to this topic

[Aeskarn Vorn]

Guardian Burst sPvP

*New Video

Hello everyone.

I'd like to welcome you to my thread on Guardian Burst Damage. Firstly... whomever believes in this false pretence that anything lower than 17k-18k HP on a Guardian is a fail build please don't read on. Your continued ignorance is really not progressive OR healthy. You can do anything damage orientated at 14k just as well or better with smart play! That and with casual play/hot join this build is good but you will get Zerg'd.

My explanation behind the (Updated) build:

Now in sPvP this build thrives when you run with a point defender/supportive team-mate. Let him/her run in and soak up the aggro from other players(He/her is your distraction) With that in mind, most people look to Guardians as defensive...they will not know what has hit them when you sneak in and burst them down.

Ok so you don't always need that ally to assist you in fights, but there can be a timeline that you must burst your target down before some utilities simply run out, or in fact your enemies are back off cd. This build is more than capable of 1v1's/2v1's!

The Build

*Updated 24/10/2012 below posts may be outdated!

http://gw2skills.net...ak1sKYMyRkNEPRA

The Rotation

Open with the greatsword. Use Judges Intervention to *surprise your target aswell as apply a 2k+ burn than you now gain 10% extra damage on. Place Symbol of wrath, and commence binding blade to pull in your target. Whilst remaining on the symbol if possible. Follow with leap of faith to blind your target and Proc a retaliation combo field.  Now use whirling wrath. (If you are lucky Sigil of Rage has Proc'd and you can chuck out as much as 10k-20k damage with good crit's, in 3 very quick seconds!) *Note if burning is not on your target before using Whirling wrath pop VoJ!

Now nothing ever goes perfectly, this is were you second weapon set comes in. If at any point during the first opener you're in trouble use Stand your ground and Smite Conditions to keep you up whilst still bursting your target with Retal and SC.

Jumping to your second weapon set, you could optionally take the Torch instead of Focus to maintain burst damage. Personally I prefer the Focus as it's my main anti-burst defence. Right back on topic. Blink to your target if they are not all ready dead and use Zealots Defence to keep up the pressure and nuking.

After all that its really situational. Spam Sword Auto attack or launch straight back into the Greatsword.

With any luck I will get some Good footage up of how I go about playing this role soon.

*sPvP Gameplay with A Similar Spec I uploaded late August.

When playing against stronger teams its advised to take Knights Amulet w/ Berserker's Jewel! Or Wurm Runes w/ Berserkers Amulet w/ knights Jewel

Thanks for taking the time to read. Constructive C/C welcome...I'm sure I have more explaining to do around the build. Please don't jump on the flame-wagon straight away, at least test the build.

Edited by Aeskarn Vorn, 03 January 2013 - 08:29 PM.

[Aodan]

Against real teams, your way too squishy. Well done dodges/CC will ruin this extremely glassy build similar to Master Eriko.

-If your going to take 10 in zeal, grab torch instead of focus, esp if you want heavy burst.
-Running 1 meditation in a heavy meditation build is not ideal esp if one is not smite conditions.
-Against real organized groups, you have to be very choosey about using your Bane Signet and make sure they don't have Stability up
-GS is more for either a heavy meditation build (SC/JI) to add some good steady aoe damage and to be used with SigoJudge for a more heavy retaliation build.
- Instead of Battle Signet, you should use Blood Lust
-Altruistic healer is a very horrible tier 3 trait, also 50% crit is too much crit. You could afford to lose some Crit/Crit Damage for some viability.


1v1:
A good Condition Ranger would beat you.
A strong burn/control Engi would beat you.
A Strong Banner/Hammer War would beat you.

3v3+:
Any strong CC on you as they will figure out your very glassy, you would be often the first target to be dropped. (You have no self stability and are running Hold The Line instead of SYG)

Edited by Aodan, 08 September 2012 - 09:51 PM.

[Agalvand]

I agree. The build is powerful, and with a support tagging along you'd probably do alright. But get separated or have 3 more enemies show up, as common when capturing or defending points, I dont believe youd last very long. Relying on the sig passive as your only condition removal isn't enough in my opinion. I run with 3 sometimes 4 and still those conditions stack back up quickly, 5 or more and its game over. And it might bug you, but 14k health, you can only dodge so much, esp against ranged. You will eat hits. I squirmed with going from 22k to 20k when I tweaked mine to hit a little harder.

Im on my phone so I cant be real constructive, ill put in more detail tonight.

[Valchas]

I wouldn't say its ignorance to think 14k health on an offence minded guardian will get eaten up by anyone with an ounce of composure. All I'd do is put retaliation on and the likelihood is you'd go down in seconds, just like most thieves do who try bursting. 14k health would scare me, hell, I winced when my health dropped from 21.5 to 20k when I tried a new build.

[Agalvand]

I wish I had a pvp partner hah. Offensive guardian with a healing hand to back you up is deadly. I tried the spike zealots build again last night and couldnt seem to match the crits I've seen. Hitting for 5k compared to 9-10k. I'll run yours when I get home and see how it goes but I wont have any help so I dont expect to last very long. How are you with soloing? Any pointers other then player skill ability?

[Destati]

I was getting worried my original content do not steal build was leaked on the net.  All I'm going to say is you don't nearly have enough crit for all those weird side effects to be useful. You even have the opportunity to have that delicious 15% crit boost with swords. Get that and this'll begin to happen. Also, Altruistic Healing is useless for you.



If you're going to play as a ravaging and aggressive guardian, make the best out of it. There's no middle ground. Okay, there is. Its called shitsville, population: pffffttttt

[Cragen]

Some general things I'd personally change.
One is running with 6 parts Ogre runes instead of 4 + 2 Divinity. The 90 power and 4% damage on Ogre gives you more overall damage then 2 parts Divinity and the survivability loss is not noticeable.

The only runes that give you more straight damage then Ogre from my quick testing is Scholar when you're above 90% hp. But since you're never gonna be above 90% except for the first initial attack and Rock Dog being the beast that it is right now for a damage spec no point not maxing Ogre.

Since you're running with two meditation skills I'd go with Meditation Mastery and Monk's Focus instead of the traits you have selected. With those two traits you're looking at a 2k heal every 16 seconds from Smite Condition alone. Picking up Focused Mind can also potentially be worth it since you can then use it to heal while casting other spells/stunned ect.

Other then that I like to use Stand Your Ground since 5 seconds of stability is an absolute godsend and just incredible for both offense and defense.

What I run is arguably more cookie cutter, but the meditation heals are just amazingly strong and unless you're going to run with retaliation on aegis and retaliation when using virtues to abuse the bug with constantly refreshing retaliation or some spirit weapon build there isn't a great deal of options that works better in my mind.

[Destati]

None of these videos really show anything spectacular to be honest.

[NovAtan]

Destati, on 20 September 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

None of these videos really show anything spectacular to be honest.

^This.
In addition, while your build may provide some good dps and be great fun to play, it offers next to no control or resistance to control when compared to most other guardian builds. When facing a better team, most people will run some sort of stability (and will be much smarter with their dodges than the opponents in the videos) and you will easily be kited, cc'd and then rolled even with all your gap closers because you can't get them to stand still.

[Destati]

Aeskarn Vorn, on 25 September 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

Update to my current Burst Build:

http://gw2skills.net...ak1siYMyRk9IPRA

I have swapped out the 10 in Zeal for Radiance. I don't loose anything really as Fiery Wrath is replaced by Radiant Power, but I do gain an additional 5% Crit. Aswell as 15% with my sword. Now by loosing a small amount of power I have gained a 52% Crit Chance in hand with a 68% Crit Damage. Bring on more burst!

Enjoy Aesk!

Replace runes with flame legion/forge. Use Sword/Focus and Scepter/Shield. Remove 10 from honor, give it to zeal. Get Fiery Assdevestation. Replace Bane with Wrath. Replace Judges' with Stand your ground. Use Soldier amulet isntead of beserkers. Welcome to the "Why the * didn't I think of this" group.

[Itharius]

GS + sword/torch is a really offensive build, so I'd expect it goes heavily into radiance or zeal and rely on spirit weapons. But this is a meditation spec. Which is super weird, because you're sacrificing a LOT of damage just to prolong your glass cannon spec's average lifespan by 6000 health. That makes me wonder why you don't just grab a knight's talisman and spec into spirit weapons, you'll get that 6000 health back as vitality and you'll have much more dps, plus you'll be less susceptible to burst damage and you can still slot smite condition to counter bleed stacks.

Edited by Itharius, 26 September 2012 - 12:33 AM.

[Wrong]

This is my build, very similar to what Itharius was saying. It's literally unstoppable in 1v1s (except perhaps against Mesmers).

http://www.gw2db.com...828-spirit-burn

twitch.tv/smug_dom
I stream tournaments pretty often, though sometimes I play support. But the videos for the build are there also.

[FalseLights]

Wrong, on 26 September 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

This is my build, very similar to what Itharius was saying. It's literally unstoppable in 1v1s (except perhaps against Mesmers).

http://www.gw2db.com...828-spirit-burn

twitch.tv/smug_dom
I stream tournaments pretty often, though sometimes I play support. But the videos for the build are there also.

+1 for having a similiar build as me! Except I went all the way in Radiance for more crit, condition damage and improved signet passive but the out come is the same, no one can take me 1v1 except for Mesmers like you said.

Spirits all the way

[Aeskarn Vorn]

Just updated the thread. Check the Opening Post for changes! -Enjoy Aeskar!

[Aodan]

I would be happy to see a screenshot of your current games played vs wins.

Also what teams have you played against? Have you done any Paid yet?

I'm not here to say offensive can't be played and be viable in specific comps, Oppa from TP runs a great offensive guardian (played against it in paid) but he also runs with the comp to support it and his build is nothing like the one posted.

http://imageshack.us...534/gw164o.jpg/

Edited by Aodan, 25 October 2012 - 10:11 AM.

[Aeskarn Vorn]

Aodan, on 25 October 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

I would be happy to see a screenshot of your current games played vs wins.

Also what teams have you played against? Have you done any Paid yet?

I'm not here to say offensive can't be played and be viable in specific comps, Oppa from TP runs a great offensive guardian (played against it in paid) but he also runs with the comp to support it and his build is nothing like the one posted.

http://imageshack.us...534/gw164o.jpg/

Hey Aodan,

I've played against some pretty solid teams.

Synergy
Origine Online
Super Squad
Legacy
No Scrub

In hand with ones that are not necessarily worldly known, but competitive all the same.

I will have to dig out my win ratio... have to say it's a little obscured as I have jumped around a few teams and not played as Burst every game. Played over 1000 matches on my guardian though. Generally I swap out to a Point Defender on Khylo, and if needed a healing/support Guardian on Foefire, dependant on enemy setup.

Currently play for myRevenge "Synthetic Gods" 2nd Team.

Paid Tournaments have forced me to switch between Knights amulet and berserker's more frequently, but in team fights providing I turn up a few seconds later to not get insta-gibbed by aoe I can dish out a whole lot of AoE pain by using Stand Your Ground as opener to dps un-hindered.

Admittedly my build is more solo orientated, but if I was to comprise on this I loose my burst capability. You have a link to Oppa's build at all for comparison? i'm guessing its this one? http://www.gw2build....torch-8260.html

Edited by Aeskarn Vorn, 25 October 2012 - 11:29 AM.

[GammaWolf]

For dps guardians the 10-30-30 build better in my view.

Limited to 1H weapons but you can have around 40% crit while using a soldier amulet to maintain tankyness. Guardian is the only class that can do this. The strength of the guardian is the ability to get loads of boons including stability, condition removal and healing which is only useful you can stay alive.

Trading all your defense for a bit of precision and crit damage doesn't seem that great. Sure the auto attacks will do alot, but you will only get a few off, especially without access to quickness or range.

I just don't see how a berzerker amulet guardian can perform better than a GS warrior for instance, who is essentially doing the same thing, but has higher base HP and skills like 100b and frenzy which have good synergy with zerk amulet.

[Aodan]

GammaWolf, on 25 October 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

For dps guardians the 10-30-30 build better in my view.

Limited to 1H weapons but you can have around 40% crit while using a soldier amulet to maintain tankyness. Guardian is the only class that can do this. The strength of the guardian is the ability to get loads of boons including stability, condition removal and healing which is only useful you can stay alive.

Trading all your defense for a bit of precision and crit damage doesn't seem that great. Sure the auto attacks will do alot, but you will only get a few off, especially without access to quickness or range.

I just don't see how a berzerker amulet guardian can perform better than a GS warrior for instance, who is essentially doing the same thing, but has higher base HP and skills like 100b and frenzy which have good synergy with zerk amulet.

10/25/30/0/5 is most likely the best. You shouldn't need RHS if you build and itemize correctly.

[JaxSilven]

Aodan, on 25 October 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

10/25/30/0/5 is most likely the best. You shouldn't need RHS if you build and itemize correctly.

He was talking about using 1 handed weapons over GS, not using GS with 10,30,30. At least that's how I read what he was saying.

Aeskarn Vorn, on 08 September 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

Open with the greatsword. Use Judges Intervention to *surprise your target aswell as apply a 2k+ burn than you now gain 10% extra damage on. Place Symbol of wrath, and commence binding blade to pull in your target. Whilst remaining on the symbol if possible. Follow with leap of faith to blind your target and Proc a retaliation combo field.  Now use whirling wrath. (If you are lucky Sigil of Rage has Proc'd and you can chuck out as much as 10k-20k damage with good crit's, in 3 very quick seconds!) *Note if burning is not on your target before using Whirling wrath pop VoJ!

I assumed the purpose of this thread was AoE burst rather than single target, a focus more on team play, rather than soloing, while still retaining some ability to 1v1. Your armour is only at 2.4k, with 14k health, which seems way way too glassy-cannon-y, infact there's no reason to run this over a RHS burst Guardian for 1v1's. So I'm going to just reply assuming you're playing with a bunker constantly.

I have to admit, I don't actually know how much Zealous blade heals for (not sure if it's like meditations or Selfless Daring), whether you require a high healing power investment or not. I do like this build though, high damage spike, AoE, Good utility. But I don't like how it's very squishy and your description of the usage. Using JI + WW at the same time increases the amount of 'whirls' hitting and reduces your ability to kite, but teleporting in then starting your symbol and then trying to pull seems really, really bad (not to mention you can start your pull and then JI to instantly hit them without the ability to miss). Not to mention you miss out on the ability to interrupt your enemy's heal with SoA.

tldr;
- Good Build for AoE damage with a bunker
- Don't like the squishiness
- Don't like the usage
- Don't like reduced utility from standard RHS

Good read thanks!
Also don't take anything I said to offense =D And feel free to correct me on assumptions or mistakes.

[Aeskarn Vorn]

Hey Silven,

Thanks for the comments.

Pretty much hit its purpose on the head. Whilst the build is predominately an AoE power house it still has strong soloing potential. Admittedly there is little room for error when soloing, but if you were not fully confident at 14.5k HP run with Knights Amulet for the extra 4.5K HP (A good initiation). When paired with my bunker Guardian or Shout Warrior I generally don't have too much to fear, even if I go down I'm ress'd quicker than I can say rallied, and back on the burst offensive!

It is somewhat reliant on those team fights and strong communication. In paid tournaments I would strongly advise you do NOT roam solo. Unless you know your target.

Zealous Blade could be stronger, but with my build I'll take all the healing I can get. It certainly is no were near meditations/daring! I absolutely refuse to take a spirit weapon though that would prompt me to take wrathful spirits instead.

The *Rotation* is more of a generic guide. There are times that using JI to open is preferential to gap close on a squishie target hiding out at the back of the group, or using it to applying burning to a bunched up enemy team. Dropping the symbol before chaining WW/JI provides me with retaliation when I need it the most. With my high Power I want targets to kill themselves trying to burst me. I have enough utility to escape it whilst they have effectively just nuked themselves. But agreed it can also be used to make sure WW connects more! As JI is the second break stun available its use should be more calculated yes. Purely situational though. Especially as you can loose out to a 2k heal here before starting combat!

I suppose with the Guardians inherent defence it will always look a little scary to run at a low health pool and armour. But think of it as an "AoE-Burst" Thief if you like, as opposed to a 100b warrior with a high HP. Your purpose is to burst targets not to point hold or soak up damage, your utilities are there to assist with nuking in hand with some surviveability.

With Team fights becoming much more important to win on Niflehel and Foefire I'm taking all the AoE I can. IF all else fails Stand Your Ground with Tome of Courage for a last ditch defence!

[JaxSilven]

Aeskarn Vorn, on 26 October 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

I suppose with the Guardians inherent defence it will always look a little scary to run at a low health pool and armour. But think of it as an "AoE-Burst" Thief if you like, as opposed to a 100b warrior with a high HP. Your purpose is to burst targets not to point hold or soak up damage, your utilities are there to assist with nuking in hand with some surviveability.

Hey, thanks for the response ^^
I understand what you're saying and the purpose you're trying to achieve. But the difference is Guardians don't have high survivability through stealth or teleports, rather through higher armour and healing abilities. I never actually insinuated that you were point holding or soaking up damage, but you really can't 1v1 with this, and I cannot imagine what you'd be able to deal with (maybe thieves but certainly not Guardains or Mesmers at the very least).
I guess what I'm trying to say is yes it works well in team fights (as I said before) but you simply cannot play the role of the theif's DPS, simply because your survivability doesn't work the same way. I hope this clears up my previous post.
Thanks for listening =D

PS. With Zealous blade I was referring to whether it was heavily affected by healing power like dodge rolls with selfless are or lightly affected like meditations without any points in healing power is.

[Aeskarn Vorn]

JaxSilven, on 26 October 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

Hey, thanks for the response ^^
I understand what you're saying and the purpose you're trying to achieve. But the difference is Guardians don't have high survivability through stealth or teleports, rather through higher armour and healing abilities. I never actually insinuated that you were point holding or soaking up damage, but you really can't 1v1 with this, and I cannot imagine what you'd be able to deal with (maybe thieves but certainly not Guardains or Mesmers at the very least).
I guess what I'm trying to say is yes it works well in team fights (as I said before) but you simply cannot play the role of the theif's DPS, simply because your survivability doesn't work the same way. I hope this clears up my previous post.
Thanks for listening =D

PS. With Zealous blade I was referring to whether it was heavily affected by healing power like dodge rolls with selfless are or lightly affected like meditations without any points in healing power is.

Ok my bad on the Thief metaphor... thought I might have been asking for trouble with that one. What I meant was that you have to accept the trade off for a build like this. Yes you will be running at low armour/hp/healing. You're reliant on other members bringing this to the table.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is you need to wrap your head around thinking like a burst class. Yes you are squishie.... but boy do you chuck out a hell of a lot of damage whilst doing so. Age old way of thinking the best form of defence is offence. If you can apply enough pressure to a target with burst they are all ready:

A) Thinking about defending themselves
B ) Therefore not necessarily attacking you/others
c) Not watching progress of fight around them

I run a Point Defender Guardian in hand with a healing support guard so I fully understand where our strengths truly lie.

What it ultimately comes down to is I <3 running around with a greatsword, and the ability to be flexible. Hopefully in some footage that I am working on that will come across via switching out amulets and weapon set-ups/utilities but keeping the same Traits/Spec.

Either way it is possible to 1v1, its not the strongest in terms of survivability for sure, but you should be practically attached to your Support/Bunker/Team Fight were you work best.

Edited by Aeskarn Vorn, 26 October 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[Aeskarn Vorn]

After some of the stick I got about being squishie I rolled this build tonight for paid tournaments:
http://gw2skills.net...ak1sAZMyRkNEPRA

It's been working really well. See what you think!

Edited by Aeskarn Vorn, 28 October 2012 - 10:58 AM.

[Nam Otatop]

http://gw2skills.net.../sYYwxJitIPRmDA i've been using this in paid tournies and i haven't lost a game yet. Give it a go see what you think.

[JaxSilven]

Aeskarn Vorn, on 26 October 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

After some of the stick I got about being squishie I rolled this build tonight for paid tournaments:

http://gw2skills.net...ak1sAZMyRkNEPRA

It's been working really well. See what you think!

I don't understand what you're trying to achieve here...

Nam Otatop, on 27 October 2012 - 01:15 AM, said:

http://gw2skills.net.../sYYwxJitIPRmDA i've been using this in paid tournies and i haven't lost a game yet. Give it a go see what you think.

Good troll.

[JaxSilven]

Aeskarn Vorn, on 27 October 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Sorry, I will come back with more of an explanation soon. Also I put the wrong Amulet on there should be Berserkers w/ Knights not the otherway around. The link is edited.

As for the troll >_<

I meant more along the lines of what is your build now trying to achieve? When you've moved away from the spike build and it's called "Guardian burst".

[Aeskarn Vorn]

JaxSilven, on 27 October 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

I meant more along the lines of what is your build now trying to achieve? When you've moved away from the spike build and it's called "Guardian burst".

Well this variant is not as burst damage orientated yes. Whilst I have not moved away from the original burst build, I have also wanted to test other specs. The utilities the Greatsword and Hammer combine are great for supportive/Aoe team fights, and as most of us all know if you can't Ress/Stomp what's the point in dps'ing targets down in the first place. Like I mentioned earlier I will explain the build properly soon. -Would rather not update multiple threads at a time.

[JaxSilven]

Aeskarn Vorn, on 27 October 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Well this variant is not as burst damage orientated yes. Whilst I have not moved away from the original burst build, I have also wanted to test other specs. The utilities the Greatsword and Hammer combine are great for supportive/Aoe team fights, and as most of us all know if you can't Ress/Stomp what's the point in dps'ing targets down in the first place. Like I mentioned earlier I will explain the build properly soon. -Would rather not update multiple threads at a time.

My point is, why didn't you just look through the forums, when there are multiple threads already about guardian burst builds. And show improvements on theirs if you have it. Rather than; here's my build -> doesn't work -> here's a completely different off-topic build. You're not really keeping to even your own constraints anymore, so I really don't follow what you're doing. You can have way more burst and survivability with other builds.

Not to mention everybody already knew you need to be able to stomp/res or your build isn't really too good and that's what everybody was trying to say. Then when you took a step in the right direction you acted like nobody had already spoon-fed you this answer. And you writing an explanation to how use the build is not going to help either, we can see how it works and are trying to explain that there are better builds in terms of both damage and survivability.

tldr; your build isn't optimized, you really just want to play with GS (which is fine but I think you're going about it the wrong way) and although you're taking some advice on you've dropped the main concept of your OP.

I'm not trying to be mean, it just seems like you're not actually getting what I'm saying, so I tried to re-word it, came off more aggressive than I would like which is not what I'm trying to do, I really just want to say try the build on other forum posts first and then make a more informed decision on your build.
thanks for reading, feel free to point out any errors in assumptions I've made or similar.

[Aeskarn Vorn]

I have a video of how this second builds runs (The builds are not exactly the same). It's a little old but you get the jist:

Slapping down that 2nd build  was just another burst alternative with a hint more of survivability  Whilst gaining the utilities of 2h hammer and Greatsword. Surely that's still evident in my selections. I have made some additions to it so it does not draw away from a *burst spec* guardian in keeping with the OP.

Jax if you have time today, I'm GMT perhaps we could hotjoin together and test a few things out. Actions speak louder than words. And seeing as duking it out as two Guardians of whom would know what's coming and how to counter each other could provide some nice benefits. -Just a thought

Edited by Aeskarn Vorn, 28 October 2012 - 11:19 AM.

[JaxSilven]

Aeskarn Vorn, on 28 October 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I have a video of how this second builds runs (The builds are not exactly the same). It's a little old but you get the jist:

Slapping down that 2nd build  was just another burst alternative with a hint more of survivability  Whilst gaining the utilities of 2h hammer and Greatsword. Surely that's still evident in my selections. I have made some additions to it so it does not draw away from a *burst spec* guardian in keeping with the OP.

Jax if you have time today, I'm GMT perhaps we could hotjoin together and test a few things out. Actions speak louder than words. And seeing as duking it out as two Guardians of whom would know what's coming and how to counter each other could provide some nice benefits. -Just a thought

We live on opposite sides of the world but sure add me and I can play on the 2nd of Nov onwards when my month restarts (currently on dial up speed). I guess we can play now if you're really really desperate but I generally have ~1-3s lag.

Didn't really get the point of the video, but some nice hammer control there. If you take any advice from me it's; you don't use your binding to rupt as much.

Also with ele's if you drop their heal at around 25-33% of their hp (rupt it with SoA, binding blade etc) you pretty much auto-win against their D/D crap. Also spec'ing for hammer of wisdom can be strong against them, and works in Khylo. And I really want to try Searing Flames (removes boons with application of burning) but havent had a chance yet. Although it now comes to mind as I'm typing this a torch may be amazing as keeping burning up may be able to negate a lot of the regen... But as bunker I've started bring scepter when matched against an ele on Khylo especially, and just using chains of light + hammer + signet sometimes to spam immo for the treb shot.