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Dungeons are horribly broken for melee - maybe a fix:

dungeons melee broken fix pve

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#31 bhavv

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:50 AM

My guild did an AC run last night on story mode with 2 melees 3 ranged and the melees rarely had to swap to range.

Ofc I was on my ele with 10 points in water, some healing jewelry and the hat from first time completion, and melees were kept up rather nicely against non bosses with soothing mist / water blast and the 2 AoE heals. I also have frozen ground and signet of water for CC, and while they have long cooldowns, bosses were perms crippled / chilled by the effort of the whole group(condition durations from each party member STACK!!! OMG).

Arena et didn't lie about the holy trinity, they said only said there is no 'dedicated healer' which is 100% true. All characters can DPS, CC, and Support, and the easy way through dungeons is for everyone to play as team and use their support / CC skills while also DPSing (Drop down vulnerability, cripple, and ah AoE heal in water attunement, swap to fire for AoE, swap to earth for more AoEs and a shield, swap to Air for blond and knockback, swap back to water and repeat etc etc).

Against harder bosses I would stay in water and try to keep soothing mist on everyone and water blast heals on the called target. Soothing mist gives a permanent +35 health per second to anyone near me so I would run around to everyone to add it to them if I could, and water blast while underlevelled to 30 was at +105 healing with 3 healing trinkets and a hat. Ice Spike alone was dealing solid damage and stacking vulnerbility, plus 10 seconds of cripple from frozen ground and signet of water.

When you use that thing in your head called a brain and practice a little, the dungeons become simple. Its been taking me just 3 runs through each one / each path to get comfortable enough with them to lead random pugs to victory, and no you don't even need voice chat, they are simple when played correctly.

You don't need to spec much into your supportive trait either, just 10 points on top of 30 in two others is fine. I'm eventually going to try out 30 fire / 20 air / 20 water, 20 / 20 / 30, and also 20 / 20 / 20 / 10 arcana (regeneration, condition cure, healing ripple and soothing mist when attuning to water, how lovely, and the 20 air gives me double boons from the healing glyph including 20s of regeneration).

Edited by bhavv, 10 September 2012 - 05:56 AM.


#32 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:05 AM

View PostSoki, on 10 September 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

Dagger/Dagger; Dagger/Pistol for Explorables of TA, AC, and Arah here.
No substantial problems whatsoever.

I hate to be -that person-, but
Learn to play.

So, LDB and BP spam?

#33 Kichwas

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:09 AM

View PostVorch, on 09 September 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

Just finished AC story mode with a Hammer/Rifle Warrior. I had Healing Signet (regen), Kick, Signet of stamina (condition removal), Dolyak Signet (reduces incoming damage), and my Battle Standard.
Rifle... who needs a rifle.

I did AC story today with a warhammer and mace/shield combo.

Even the boss my guildies said "you have to range this guy, melee can't get to him" - I got to him. I walked up the wooden plank to the side of his platform - just like I saw a group do in a 'press demo video' I watched a month ago.

OP: just learn circle strafe action activation - I can do this because of my Nostromo, which lets me move with a D-Pad held by my thumb while still hitting my action buttons. But you can see plenty of keyboard folks on youtube doing it - often WAY better than I can.

I had, I think, the battle standard elite skill

This was my build during the run:
http://www.guildhead...gTMohgTM9Ma0aMo
- As my crafting is weaponsmith and armorsmith, I had all level 30 armor. But my weapon crafting is a tad behind, so I had a level 28 or 29 hammer, a 28 mace, and a 30 shield. I had basic rings and amulet - my jewelcrafter alt is under 50 skill.

Had no trouble dishing out damage, and was fairly good at survival. Better than most of the others, and I had my share of aggro.

I started with Banner of Discipline, and swapped it for Dolyak Signet halfway through as I was getting too much aggro and wanted a little more breathing room - and someone else I think was covering the boons from DIscipline.

Battle Standard and Banner of Defense pretty much put out at the start of every fight, if off cooldown.
Signet of Fury is a personal favorite because it lets me instant max my Adrenaline and then hit my leaping hammer move: Earthshaker.
I'm also VERY FOND of Staggering Blow from Hammer as a defensive and positioning tactic. I'll often move behind mobs and then hit it, to scatter them towards the group, or in front and hit it, if away is better. But tossing them towards seems more handy in AC, helps keep them further away from additional pulls - obvious exceptions being when someone has laid out a ground effect that you want to keep them in. But by contrast good to hit if they have laid down a ground effect, to get them and us out of it.

I think melee's in an ideal place right now, personally. I find myself a LOT less effective when I go ranged as the rifle is single target whereas melee is always 'as many as you can fit in your swing arc.'

#34 bhavv

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:17 AM

The guardian in my group was permanently in mace / shield too and rarely died. In a pug I had a rifle warrior, and he died a lot more because he wasn't getting my heals which he would have gotten if he was meleeing my target.

Seriously, Water blast is every melees best friend in dungeons.

#35 dirkaderpa

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:21 AM

View PostTranquility, on 10 September 2012 - 05:16 AM, said:

Well, excellent job putting together a series of words to make what is called a sentence.

Other than that, you are pretty much wrong about everything you typed here. I've done every explorable as a Guardian, with weapon sets being a hammer and staff.

Yes, some fights you can't just plant yourself in melee range and stand there with your thumb up your bum the entire time, but that was never intended to be a valid playstyle. Learn to dodge. Learn to circle strafe. Learn "Protection". Learn to toughness and vitality.
No there is NO reason to ever put yourself in harms way when you can kite to your hearts content as ranged. There's just too much aoe going around and the mobs do just too much damage.

I don't think you ever played in a dungeon. The dungeons are DESIGNED to disallow melee, there's too much stacked against you.

Edited by dirkaderpa, 10 September 2012 - 06:22 AM.


#36 Tranquility

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:43 AM

View Postdirkaderpa, on 10 September 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

No there is NO reason to ever put yourself in harms way when you can kite to your hearts content as ranged. There's just too much aoe going around and the mobs do just too much damage.

I don't think you ever played in a dungeon. The dungeons are DESIGNED to disallow melee, there's too much stacked against you.

I don't think you have ever played in a dungeon. The dungeons are DESIGNED to allow melee, there's a dodge mechanic to avoid AOE.

I can just envision a glass cannon thief sitting there trying to tank every AoE expecting a healer to keep him alive or something, then getting all bitter and heading to the forum when he dies over and over.

#37 bhavv

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:49 AM

Ima stand in a ghostly firestorm and tank coz ima melee. Oh noez, I died! Ergo this game is terrible for melee coz I died. Nerf everyfing!!!111.

#38 Gladium

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:53 AM

I do perfectly fine as a melee thief in explorables. We have a ton of evasion skills to prevent damage and stealth skills to drop agro when there's too much to avoid. Use them.


edit: and I have a crit heavy build, which is supposedly harder for PvE than conditions.

Edited by Gladium, 10 September 2012 - 06:54 AM.


#39 dirkaderpa

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:55 AM

View PostTranquility, on 10 September 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

I don't think you have ever played in a dungeon. The dungeons are DESIGNED to allow melee, there's a dodge mechanic to avoid AOE.

I can just envision a glass cannon thief sitting there trying to tank every AoE expecting a healer to keep him alive or something, then getting all bitter and heading to the forum when he dies over and over.
No, you haven't played a dungeon before I can tell since kiting is the name of the game. You don't kite, you die. You can't afford getting hit by very many things. I can't argue with someone of your level of intelligence so forget it.

#40 Tranquility

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:13 AM

View Postdirkaderpa, on 10 September 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

No, you haven't played a dungeon before I can tell since kiting is the name of the game. You don't kite, you die. You can't afford getting hit by very many things. I can't argue with someone of your level of intelligence so forget it.

You're so mad.

Playing is pretty hard.

View Postbhavv, on 10 September 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

Ima stand in a ghostly firestorm and tank coz ima melee. Oh noez, I died! Ergo this game is terrible for melee coz I died. Nerf everyfing!!!111.

More or less what I'm getting from this guy.

#41 bhavv

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:13 AM

The melee guardian and warrior in my group that were getting hit by everything didn't die. So I have no idea what you're talking about.

Edited by bhavv, 10 September 2012 - 07:15 AM.


#42 LavaSquid

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:24 AM

Not sure if dungeons are broken for melee or I need to practice more....

#43 Waar Kijk Je Naar

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:31 AM

Don't try to play pure melee. While it is possible to do so, you're just making the game hard for yourself and your group. Always bring a ranged weapon. While you heal up, as a Warrior you can build adrenaline, as a Guardian you can support and I don't know what a Thief can do. Going ranged for a bit beats getting downed/defeated.

#44 Soki

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:06 PM

View PostProtoss, on 10 September 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

So, LDB and BP spam?
Hey, it worked.
Also switching to drop Black Powder to blind when it's needed; and setting Shadow Refuge when it gets bad to reposition.

I'm just saying that I never had any problems meleeing in dungeons. Ever. And that it's a playstyle issue if you do.

#45 Devlin1991

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:25 PM

You can melee in a few explorable paths, I actually recommend it in my AC guide that is stickied, but there are some paths that have so many anti-melee mechanics that it is a complete waste to not go ranged. Arah being the main culprit so far.

Risen Hunter - His autoattack hurts and it bounces between targets, at ranged you can "Juke" it and make it miss you but at close range you have no choice but to eat it or spend all your time dodge>dodge>block>dodge doing no damage.

Risen Elementalist - His auto attack is conal, at mid-long range you can easily sidestep between the projectiles, but at close range you often eat 2-3 every cast which will kill you very fast or at least force you to run for it spamming blocks.

Risen Illusionist - Casts a chaos storm which ticks very fast for 6k a tick, you need to immediately dodge out of it or you die, having more than 1 melee attacking this mob is a sure way to have terrible uptime as you bait multiple storms in melee range.

Boss with the trees - Has a melee range knockback combined with the high density of the green poison knockdown effects means that melee have almost no uptime.

Giganticus Lupicus - Phase 1 - can't melee due to grub mechanic. Phase 2-3 - Aoe life leach kills melee, multiple almost instakill aoe's combined with splash damage auto attacks means that going close to him gets you killed. You just don't have the time to dodge things when they hit the ground almost isntantly as close range.

Pistol boss in the Murssat route - You need to LOS or Smoke screen/reflect most of his damage, going in melee gives you no support frm party reflects and you will die or have almost no uptime.

Even though I really really want to find a way to have melee be a viable option in more than just AC and route 2 COF, they just aren't. There is too much stacked against them currently due to poor encounter design and horrificly unfair conal attacks that are only dodgeable at range. If you want to be useful to your group in Explorables, especially in Pug groups, build primarily for range dps with some survivability and group support, spells like Smoke screen, scorpion wire, epidemic, any boon removals or projectile reflections etc are all pretty much mandatory if you don't want your runs to be 3-4 hour wipefests.

#46 AxeX

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:50 PM

I play exclusively melee Guardian (Sword/Torch and Hammer) and I must say that if you ONLY play with pugs, melee is of course horrible. If you play with friends or guildmates things turn out much better. Not because you have a controller or supporter (though that can play its part) but because you're coordinated.

Did a pug CoF Explorable the other day. Died roughly 10 times, half of those times because nobody tried to revive me when I was still Downed. Later that day did several CoF Explorable runs with 4 other guildmates. Died only once or twice each run and if I got downed I was revived shortly after.

The reason for the difference? Guildmates weren't playing the lone wolf game, we marked and properly focused down the most dangerous enemies and we even called out our big support/control abilities (the other Guardian in the group kept calling out CH when using Tome of Courage #5).

#47 twixx73

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:00 PM

I just posted in another thread how much I liked the dungeons alot. To the OP, I do understand what your trying to say but I am guessing that you want to stand toe to toe and melee the whole time which probably wont work. I don't play a melee class but I do know that some of the mobs bang pretty hard. I don't think it was designed to go blow for blow in melee range like a tank would play. I said in my other thread that I liked the dungeons because it felt like pvp. If you know your taking heavy shots you gotta dodge out and switch to range or whatever it takes to survive just like you would in pvp. It helps too if your party is doing there job as well using abilities that benefit the group.

Ive been in groups where we wipe so dam much and ive been in groups where we hardly die at all. Sometimes its your teammates that make things better, for instance that one boss fight with the couple, " the girl and the guy" I forgot their names but that boss fight really shows how good your group is. Some people just know how to use the boulders right and it makes things so much easier for the group while some just start throwing boulders anywhere and everyone starts taking a beating. Just saying it might not be fully your fault, I think there are a lot of factors that play in here as to how people take damage.

#48 Wildclaw

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:22 PM

View Postbhavv, on 10 September 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

Seriously, Water blast is every melees best friend in dungeons.

Water blast is pure crap.

Healing Ripple+Eruption blast combo(with geyser or HR)+EA Regeneration does almost as much healing as constant WB spamming, while wasting a fraction of the casting time.

Edited by Wildclaw, 10 September 2012 - 07:22 PM.


#49 Prokofiova

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:30 PM

View Postph2001, on 09 September 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Control specced? Most characters have one or two hard-CCs on a LONG cooldown.

Also, if you need a "controller", a "supporter" and DPS, then ANet lied to us, then there IS a trinity after all.
What?  ArenaNet didn't lie.  They stated, specifically, that they were replacing Healing and Tanking with Support and Control.  This was known several months before the game was released.

#50 LethoOfGulet

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:49 PM

View PostProkofiova, on 10 September 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

What?  ArenaNet didn't lie.  They stated, specifically, that they were replacing Healing and Tanking with Support and Control.  This was known several months before the game was released.
And I don't know if it's just me, but the line between controller and supporter is incredibly blurry

Knockbacks and pulls, stuns and immobilizes, offensive summons, abilities that give both boons and conditions, etc.

Edited by LethoOfGulet, 10 September 2012 - 09:50 PM.


#51 ph2001

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 04:53 AM

View PostDevlin1991, on 10 September 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

You can melee in a few explorable paths, I actually recommend it in my AC guide that is stickied, but there are some paths that have so many anti-melee mechanics that it is a complete waste to not go ranged. Arah being the main culprit so far.

Risen Hunter - His autoattack hurts and it bounces between targets, at ranged you can "Juke" it and make it miss you but at close range you have no choice but to eat it or spend all your time dodge>dodge>block>dodge doing no damage.

Risen Elementalist - His auto attack is conal, at mid-long range you can easily sidestep between the projectiles, but at close range you often eat 2-3 every cast which will kill you very fast or at least force you to run for it spamming blocks.

Risen Illusionist - Casts a chaos storm which ticks very fast for 6k a tick, you need to immediately dodge out of it or you die, having more than 1 melee attacking this mob is a sure way to have terrible uptime as you bait multiple storms in melee range.

Boss with the trees - Has a melee range knockback combined with the high density of the green poison knockdown effects means that melee have almost no uptime.

Giganticus Lupicus - Phase 1 - can't melee due to grub mechanic. Phase 2-3 - Aoe life leach kills melee, multiple almost instakill aoe's combined with splash damage auto attacks means that going close to him gets you killed. You just don't have the time to dodge things when they hit the ground almost isntantly as close range.

Pistol boss in the Murssat route - You need to LOS or Smoke screen/reflect most of his damage, going in melee gives you no support frm party reflects and you will die or have almost no uptime.

Even though I really really want to find a way to have melee be a viable option in more than just AC and route 2 COF, they just aren't. There is too much stacked against them currently due to poor encounter design and horrificly unfair conal attacks that are only dodgeable at range. If you want to be useful to your group in Explorables, especially in Pug groups, build primarily for range dps with some survivability and group support, spells like Smoke screen, scorpion wire, epidemic, any boon removals or projectile reflections etc are all pretty much mandatory if you don't want your runs to be 3-4 hour wipefests.

This, this here is what I'm talking about.

It's sad to see so many people COMPLETELY miss the point of this topic.

Statements like these:

View Posttwixx73, on 10 September 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

I am guessing that you want to stand toe to toe and melee the whole time which probably wont work.

No, I don't. I'm a thief and not supposed to take hits. But the way auto-attacks and some of the current special attacks are designed makes it impossible to melee EFFICIENTLY at all.
What use are my 3 dodges at melee, when every single autoattack hits extremely hard and there are instakill mechanic projectiles at work everywhere? I'd be damn stupid not to stay at range, where you can actually SEE, REACT TO and DODGE those projectiles as they come flying in.
Again: 25% bonus damage doesn't justify anything if you have to stay out of the fight 60%+ of the time.

#52 Cottage Pie

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:00 AM

melee steam rolls normal pve like nothing else, but in exp dungeons you are going to have to think about ways of making the damage either not as bad or miss completely.  A lot of good advice in the thread so i won't repeat it.  But yes, melee right now is torturous in exp dungeons and in PvP easily shut down.

#53 Chorazin

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 02:58 PM

Sure, you can roll in, roll out, firing off abilities to help you survive. Or u can stand back whilst circle strafing around the mob with ur auto attack active and yawn occasionally dealing out rng dps, maybe throw in a roll occasionally if something gets close, i recall doing the spider lord guy in TA without even using a HoT, just strafed around him for 5 mins.

The problem is there is no drawback to this, and this is throughout the entire game like the 1 shotting champion mobs stomps(im looking at you giants and ice beasts).

As a side note if that is the way the game is meant to be designed then it is working as intended that it is just easier to use rng dps.

#54 jirayasan

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 03:11 PM

It's not broken. You need the right combinations and if you don't, ranged + melee is a good combination.

I use Sword + Shield, Mace + Mace on my Warrior. 3 stuns,1 AoE stun/Knockdown, 2 blocks, 1 slow and 1 AoE bleed/immobilize.
I also use Bull's Charge (stun,knockdown), Stomp (Knockback) and Endure Pain (No damage from attack for 5sec and breaks stun) and my Elite Skill is Battle Standard or Rampage depending on what the group needs.

I use my stuns to interupt and knockdowns to keep mobs from changing target. Endure Pain with the AoE bleed/immobilize. Battle standard is used to ress downed allies and if i use Rampage i can knockdown enemies and interupt them.

I also have Traits that deflect projectiles when i block and a few other good traits. My highest dmg on a reflect was 7600.

If you have 2 Guardians you can melee your way through most mobs, they have regen, heals etc that can create combos with your charge skills.

Edited by jirayasan, 16 September 2012 - 03:14 PM.


#55 Chorazin

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:35 PM

Quote

If you have 2 Guardians you can melee your way through most mobs, they have regen, heals etc that can create combos with your charge skills.

I found as a Guardian i was much better off going rng DPS, didnt even need to use combos, HoT's etc, just circle strafed around at a distance with some judicious 'juking'(which is nothing more than rocking side to side on the spot to throw off the rng attacks) and rolling occasionally.

I think people are missing the point of the thread, sure you can spec specifically, have correct class make up for the group, rotate ur knock downs, blocks, heals, hots, keep weakness up, condition purges, roll in and out, get your combo fields setup, etc etc etc. Or stand back at range, not worry about any of that, strafe in a circle with autoattack on, throw in a roll or 'juke', collect loot, move on.

Why would i choose the more difficult option, im going to choose the path of least resistance and melee is certainly not that path.

#56 1carcarah1

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:55 PM

View PostChorazin, on 16 September 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

Why would i choose the more difficult option, im going to choose the path of least resistance and melee is certainly not that path.
Cause for some people, meleeing is more fun

#57 Di-Dorval

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:05 PM

Did explorable mode of TA with my 60 warrior. Didn't had trouble using melee. Just don't expect to go full glass build and succeed.
I just popped dolyak signet on my glass warrior and was fine. I actually was the one who died the least all the rest were lv 80s. You need to know when you can melee and when it's preferable to go ranged.

#58 Mutou

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:17 PM

View PostSkjuludde, on 09 September 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:



No they didn't. They've mentioned that setup a number of times.
I remember them saying removing the holy trinity, Not saying "There won't be any trinity whatsoever"
Besides pretty much any class can fulfill each of the roles mentioned, something that's substantially harder to create with healer, tank and dps.

I think you are taking that quote wrong. They said there was no trinity, but they did say in dungeons there will be roles that need to be filled. It's just your character can do all of them. When not in combat you can change the traits/ utility skills you have purchased to suit the group best. I use a hammer on almost all my dungeons. I can't tell you how many axe/axe and greatsword warriors I see fall because they come in here in a glass cannon build and expect it to work because it works outside of dungeons. Gw2 gives you so many tools to adapt to the situation, you just need to use them.

#59 Nox_Aeterna

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:29 PM

Well i got a guardian and still go full ranged.

Guardians should "tank"? Guardians should melee?

See if i care, im going to avoid dying mate, that is what i care about, even if it is only 10% as effective.

#60 MFGrady

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:53 PM

I melee all the time on my Guardian, level 58, have done AC, TA, and CM normal/explorer using Greatsword/Staff. I die the least in my group of friends and I am usually the last to go down when wiping.

I see people all the time attempting to maximize damage out put by using their skills when they are on cooldown as opposed to timing them to take advantage of secondary effects. You are not meant to go into the dungeons and steam roll the boss on the first try. You must learn their attack patterns, attack timing, and other tells. Nothing is even remotely random about combat in this game.

Circle strafing DOES NOT WORK IN GROUP SETTINGS simply because aggro bounces around too much. All you will do is pull aggro at get people hit by cone attacks would otherwise be safe. Story mode dungeons are easier simply because you have those damn NPCs throwing off aggro, making it hard to tell who is facing what so attacks are a bit tamer. Explorables are less lenient on damage, but you have full control over positioning.

Melee should be next to each other, that way any melee strikes go the same direction. Melee should dodge through the target or away from another player. If there are a lot of melee, you may be better off disengaging completely as opposed to dodging into another player.

Range should be behind or to the side of the boss so that it is obvious when the boss switches targets. This also keeps them out of frontal cone attacks.

When handling multiple mobs, especially more than two lieutenants, it is best to focus down healers as soon as possible. Leaving too many mobs unattended will end in disaster as you will have mobs randomly attacking people who are not in position to handle them.

Mobs will follow the path of least resistance. They will attempt to take out debuffers > Damage dealers > Closest person. They will avoid AoE effects if possible.

Arenanet did not take your cut and dry, tank and spank MMO and re-skin it. New game, new mechanics, and you have to learn them. It is not the developer's job to hold you hand while you learn the game, and they are not responsible for helping you un-learn things you have learned from other games. You WILL go down, people will die. The rally/rez mechanic is there for a reason, as are the large number of traits/skill which allow you to help downed players. It's not hard.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: dungeons, melee, broken, fix, pve

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