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Flipping sucks in this game, agree?

playing trading post money

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#31 Requiem For Dawn

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:43 PM

View PostLootifer, on 10 September 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

And finally for the wider audience: I have started finding the odd good margin here and there. So maybe margin trading isnt dead after all? (and my ability to divide by 0.85/time by 1.15 is getting pretty quick :P)
I've found some too, there aren't many nor they sell as fast as I wish but they eventually do
btw if you are trying to buy low / sell high you just need to see if can easily sell your bought item in more then 118% buy money, anything less and you'll be losing

#32 Corvindi

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 02:31 AM

I find the trading post incredibly annoying and tedious to make even a few silver off of, and the gems/gold exchange and cash shop items completely worthless for making gold (I had to learn that the hard way and it cost me over 3 gold in one night of messing with dyes and minis).

The worst thing is, if I hadn't gone all alt+crafting happy and just leveled my first character to 80, I'd probably have been able to buy extra character slots and a bank slot with the gold I'd have made.  It's a whole lot easier than trying to stay ahead of a bunch of auction house players all scrambling to buy the same few items.

#33 Lootifer

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 03:18 AM

View PostRequiem For Dawn, on 10 September 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

I've found some too, there aren't many nor they sell as fast as I wish but they eventually do
btw if you are trying to buy low / sell high you just need to see if can easily sell your bought item in more then 118% buy money, anything less and you'll be losing
Haha, yer I meant divide by 0.85, times by 0.85 (herp moment...).

An you touch on a good point: Liquidity (selling fast/buying fast) is inversly proportional to margin. That is (in theory) the slowest moving items will have the largest margin, and the fastest moving will have the smallest. So you either play the fast game with crap margins or the patient game with good ones.

Currently the only real option is the latter because the market hasnt properly adjusted to the 15% tax rate on fast moving items (that is people are losing money on their sales by not pricing 118% above the vend price/highest buy order). Hopefully either ANet will put up a warning on the sell screen or the population will smarten up and realise that they should be just vending/selling to highest BO.

One thing I havent checked. Do you get charged the 10% post sale tax even if you sell direct to a buy order? That would complicate things (for the masses, not exactly complicated, people just dont care) and mean the margins are never likely to yield profits for traders.

Edited by Lootifer, 11 September 2012 - 03:18 AM.


#34 christiansoldier

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 06:54 AM

View PostShiren, on 09 September 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

As much as I liked that trading is difficult to become rich with, it's very clear there are many people in the game who have figured out how to make massive profits doing it. Flipping still exists, you just haven't figured out how to do it yet. Others have and they are rolling in cash.

Is it possible that they simply purchased gems with real money and sold it for gold?

#35 cyferior78252

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:05 AM

View PostVerificus, on 09 September 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

You misinterpret. I don't mind having to wait one day. If that was the actual even playing field I was doing business on. The fact is. I've SEEN multiple exquisite items being sold every hour. I watch alot of markets. That means that there are people that have found a way to make heaps of gold. Despite Anet's plans to make this a smooth, communist-like ecoconmy, which I would have appreciated, they failed. Working for it would only be acceptable for me if it meant that working yields higher results than playing the TP. Which it cleary doesn't, how else to explain the huge sales of the items. Let me define huge though, by huge I mean, a huge part of the hardcore players, which I consider myself one of. Most likely 97% of all players are casuals and don't have those heaps of gold, however the other 3% dominate the gold input/output with whatever strategy or market niche they have found.

I have jeweler on 400 and I can tell you, there is not a single item I can make right now (and I invested heavily in trying to get all the recipes, still missing a few though) that I can sell without a loss. All mats are more expensive than the final product. On products where it's not easily determined wether its a loss or profit, the fee does an adept job at assuring there is no profit to be made.

Maybe I chose the wrong profession, but I considered, since the gems that are required to make the items are many many times more scarcer than ores and the like, I could probably dish out a good selling item. Guess I was wrong. What is that magical crafting market you are referring to that all GW1 players will use to gain an unfair advantage?

You could hardly be wronger. Jeweler is one of the most profitable professions, and I can usually generate 2-3 gold per hour. Do yourself a favor, get into the habit of creating spreadsheets for about everything. Keep track of the direct buy price, the highest buy order as well as the crafting cost. Populate the spreadsheet regulary and you will see that there is nearly always some opportunity. And to give you a kickstart: Red is the new gold.

#36 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:11 AM

View PostReeku, on 09 September 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

It doesn't suck, it does require patience. Its the closest game you will ever find that comes close to stock market trading. Get used to it, it is not your lame World of Warcraft market that lets you control a particular commodity in a quick sweep. Buy low and sell high obviously works no matter what, but its a matter of obtaining the right product and fighting for it. It wont be easy either, and it shouldnt be. I love this system.

This. And it's good.

#37 Bilateralrope

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:38 AM

View PostLootifer, on 11 September 2012 - 03:18 AM, said:

Currently the only real option is the latter because the market hasnt properly adjusted to the 15% tax rate on fast moving items (that is people are losing money on their sales by not pricing 118% above the vend price/highest buy order). Hopefully either ANet will put up a warning on the sell screen or the population will smarten up and realise that they should be just vending/selling to highest BO.

Thing is, if people are selling items that they have found in the world, selling them for one copper above the highest buy order usually does earn them more coin after tax than selling to the highest buy order. The only exceptions being when increasing the price by one copper also increases the rounded tax take by one copper, then they get the same amount of coin. Or when the item is being sold for so low that they will make less than the vendor value, but making those people aware of the tax would just push their price up to 1 copper above the point where they make the same as they would selling to the vendor.

It's only the buy low, sell high people who need a larger difference between prices.

Still, the sale tax should be made more obvious.

#38 Verificus

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:45 AM

View Postcyferior78252, on 11 September 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

You could hardly be wronger. Jeweler is one of the most profitable professions, and I can usually generate 2-3 gold per hour. Do yourself a favor, get into the habit of creating spreadsheets for about everything. Keep track of the direct buy price, the highest buy order as well as the crafting cost. Populate the spreadsheet regulary and you will see that there is nearly always some opportunity. And to give you a kickstart: Red is the new gold.

I couldn't be more right. It is simply math. I have to buy all the ores, to refine into ingots, to create settings/bands/chains/hooks. For one amulet for instance. I need 1 setting and chain, this will cost me 6 ingots = 12 ore. Lets take Mithril for example. Mithril sells for about 25 copper. So that's 3 silver right there for just the mithril. Then I need the gems. I watch the prices, sometimes I buy lower tier gems if the dusts and the gems together are cheaper than the transmuted gem itself. Usually this isn't the case and I'll buy the gem itself and then upgrade it to embelished bla bla bla. Mind you that for exotic stuff this costs one of those ectoglobs which costs around 20 silver a piece. Lets assume I just make normal rares. I'm staring at 3 silver for the ores, 5 gems to transmute into embellished/1 embellished gem depening on price is usually about 2-4 silver. Assuming the worst I have to pay about 7 silver and sell for 8 silver 26 copper to break even. Rare's sell nowhere near that amount. I would know since I upgrade my gear regularly and never spend more than 3-4 silver per jewelry. It's so stupid. It's more expensive to make em myself than it is to buy them straight off the TP. Retarded. I have noticed carnelian/ruby whatever name they have at max level to be more wanted than others yes (if that is what you mean by red is the new gold) however it also makes their mats more expensive. I must admit that I haven't looked at every of the what seems like hundres of recipes I have. But I have looked at all platinum and mithril blue, green and rare jewelry and there is no way to make profit on them. Unless you farm for the mats yourself. Which I assume you don't. Please enlighten me how you are generate 2-3 gold per hour on jewelry that costs more to make than the end product can sell for.

Edit: To make sure I wasn't running my mouth I looked it up for you:

If I wanna sell Ruby Mithril Ring/Amulet/Earring of the Berserker, which are currently price at 1g,2s/1g,4s/1g,13s respectively. I can either, buy embellished brilliant rubies, for 32 silver a pop, or invest in 5 ruby crystals and a filigree which is a little less, around 30,5/31.5 silver depending on the trend. I need three of them. Worst Case scenario it'll cost me 1g,2silver for just the gems. Ruling out profits on the rings. I also need a setting + band/chain/hook. These are priced about 1.5 silver each. Buying ore and crafting it myself is sometimes more expensive, sometimes cheaper, depending on the trend. It's really only a difference of 1-10 copper max so it has no relevance. It'll cost me 1g.5s to make a full item, ruling out the amulet aswell. Finally the earring. If I wanna break even I have to sell at 118% the price of costs. Which is 1g,23s rounded down. Currently, for Rare, Mithril, Level 80 jewelery, there is no way to make profit on either 3 accesoires. Mind you that these are also the highest selling ones. All the other gemstones and associated rings/amulets/earring sell for no more than 77 silver. The costs being a little bit lower but not by much. The other ones will have around 70-80 silver cost to make. Which doesn't even give me profit even if the fee didn't exist.

Maybe the type of items you are selling are orichalcum ones, fine, master, rare and maybe even exquisite ones. In order to be able to make those, you need to have alot of gold already to invest in buying the mats. And if you say you can sell those for a profit I'll believe that for now, however it is hardly relevant as nearly no one can make this right now as nearly no one has the gold to afford the mats. Hence why there aren't many orichalcum based jewelry on the TP as of now (as opposed to mithril). I am one of those people that makes no more than a gold a day simply by farming events and selling any mats I find. 2gold if the event happens to be one of those 'surive all the waves' one where the attackers drop lots of desireable fine crafting mats.

Edited by Verificus, 11 September 2012 - 11:18 AM.


#39 killay

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:09 AM

Be careful the way items are being sold is tricky on Anet's server.
It seems items with the lowest quantity are being sold first. So never sell a full stack but divide it into smaller parts.

Also people tend to profit from the ignorance of others. At first you could for example easily buy cheap items attuned with certain runes and sell those runes for profit. So be on the lookout for these types of sales :)

#40 RamzaBehoulve

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 04:21 PM

View Postcyferior78252, on 11 September 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

You could hardly be wronger. Jeweler is one of the most profitable professions, and I can usually generate 2-3 gold per hour. Do yourself a favor, get into the habit of creating spreadsheets for about everything. Keep track of the direct buy price, the highest buy order as well as the crafting cost. Populate the spreadsheet regulary and you will see that there is nearly always some opportunity. And to give you a kickstart: Red is the new gold.

Jeweler is the worst money making profession by miles and it will get worse and worse as time passes. You making money is not an example of how the profession is. You'd probably be making more with an armor or weapon profession given your market skills.

#41 stefanplc

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 04:40 PM

i've personally found a secret that will work only for so long and its totally legit, but I'm not going to share... so not everyone is BSing... it is possible to make up to 10 maybe even 15g per day without much work using the TP

#42 zaierk

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 05:16 PM

The opportunity is definately there to flip in this game. I am averaging 25+ gold per day now and I only see that amount increasing as I build my portfolio (heh) and expand into new markets. Decide where you want to start (copper, silver, gold) and go from there. :)

#43 Specialz

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 06:31 PM

View Postzaierk, on 11 September 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

The opportunity is definately there to flip in this game. I am averaging 25+ gold per day now and I only see that amount increasing as I build my portfolio (heh) and expand into new markets. Decide where you want to start (copper, silver, gold) and go from there. :)
I hate people like you or maybe I am just jealous. I farm all day and I can barely go above 4g. Tried playing the market with some runes and 4 hours later so jackweed puts them up for half the price.

#44 RabidusIncendia

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 05:18 AM

... I just realized the title is "flipping" sucks, and not "flipping sucks"  XD  either is kinda true.
Fun while it lasted.  I guess.

#45 RamzaBehoulve

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:54 PM

View PostSpecialz, on 11 September 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

I hate people like you or maybe I am just jealous. I farm all day and I can barely go above 4g. Tried playing the market with some runes and 4 hours later so jackweed puts them up for half the price.

It's easy to be jealous and understandable. However, let me clue you in on the little secret. For you to make money via farming, you don't need any special skill (maths, economy), you don't need to search for hours what sells, for how much and how quickly. You don't need to take any risk with your money.

We, traders/crafters spend a lot of time initially and even through the game life figuring out what works and what doesn't. We also, sometimes, take huge hits to our money bank because we either made a mistake or the market totally went the opposite way than what we predicted.

Basically, as a farmer, you have a steady, safe income while we have a non-steady, riskier, but potentially higher income.

So, don't be jealous, some lose tons of gold daily also while you are still making your 4g constantly.

Edited by RamzaBehoulve, 13 September 2012 - 12:56 PM.


#46 Treble

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 04:46 PM

View PostVerificus, on 09 September 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

How else do you explain the exquisite gear and rare gear of lvl 80 that are priced around ~3-4 gold and ~50 silver respectively are being bought. There is a good amount of them listed (like say a couple hundred maybe) and I see at least a dozen being sold each hour. Apparantly there are many people who have enough budget to buy one full lvl 80 set. This prolly not for every class and I know there is much more expensive stuff.. But a basic rare or exquisite lvl 80 set might cost you around 5-10 gold or 30-40 gold depending on which rarity you want. I can't even afford 5 or 10 gold.. let alone 30-40. So there must be a way to make that kinda gold that I am missing.
Idk about anyone else, but I'm making a ton of money just playing the game at 80.

DE's give around 3s per, and there are a TON of DE's to be had in Orr and Frostgorge Sound.

Blues and Greens generally vendor for 70c-1.8s or more, and are quite frequent drops.

Lots of Mithril Ore and Elder Logs to be farmed, which aren't much on their own, but can easily be sold in bulk or converted to Orichalcum.

Salvaging Rares for Orichalcum and selling the runes.

Dragon zone events give plenty of greens and yellows.

Selling excess high level fine crafting mats since I already have enough for my full exotic set.

Easy to make 10-15g/day by just playing, really.

#47 horrorslice

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 04:54 PM

I'm playing maybe 1-2 hours a night. I'm level 53, and I have about 7g50s after buying a full set of rares and every single green dye I could find. I stopped using my resources for crafting, and I have been selling everything. Not sure how well I'm doing compared to everyone else, but I TP freely to wherever I want, and I'm not worried about gold. :D

#48 Keops

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 05:10 PM

There are still interresting items to flip, but it's not a basic flip, you have to understand what might gain value.

For example, Sup runes of the ranger used to go for 10s.  Now they are over 1g.  I have no clue why it raised that much since I don't consider the rune to be that good.

Then there are weird things:

Following some "how to make gold" reddit post that were talking about Magic Find, the prices of the Runes of Traveler and of Pirate went up by a lot.

Problem is, despite both rune sets providing the same +MF percentage, the Pirate worth are less than half the Traveler runes (50s vs 1g+).

I have a hard time understanding that one but I see potential there.

#49 Grayle

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 05:47 PM

Well, Traveler has Vitality and its 6-piece is 5% faster movement speed which helps with farming. Pirate might give you some Might if you get hit in the face enough times, prolongs Might duration which not every class has a lot of and summons a Parrot, which is a gimmick.

#50 Keops

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 05:50 PM

View PostGrayle, on 13 September 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Well, Traveler has Vitality and its 6-piece is 5% faster movement speed which helps with farming. Pirate might give you some Might if you get hit in the face enough times, prolongs Might duration which not every class has a lot of and summons a Parrot, which is a gimmick.

Yeah but guides say to go with 5 runes of 1 type and 1 of the other to get another 10%, so if you follow this you do not get the +5% movement speed.

#51 Grayle

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 05:57 PM

Well, then Vitality all the time is still better than a stack of Might sometimes. Might also be that more people know Traveler exists as they seem to drop more Minor variants in lower levels, so people just go looking for the Superior version. That's my guess, I don't actually know if they do drop more Minor variants, but I've seen plenty of Minor Traveler runes and only came across a Pirate rune once, and that was the Superior one in Orr when I was already 80.

#52 Keops

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 06:00 PM

Ok that might explain it.

I might attempt to gamble with these runes.  We'll see.

#53 Grayle

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 06:28 PM

Also, you can craft Pirate, but not Traveler. So that's another reason why there's a premium on Traveler I'd imagine.

#54 Jaynestown

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 12:00 AM

Flipping specifically has very little profit, yes.

It's the more creative things that will net you the most profit.

I made about 20g in 2 days buying 70+ rares cheap, salvaging them for ectos, then selling the ectos. Most people have caught on though, and either the prices for all rares are too high now, or ectos drop in price to the point it's not worth doing.

I had also been making a bit of profit off of buying Linen Scraps dirt cheap then selling 15 slot bags. There's not too much profit in this unless the bags are going for 62+s each. Just have to watch the prices and keep a stock of Linen Scraps that you've bought really low.

One of the popular ones now is buying green items and then putting them in the Mysic Forge. I told my friend to give it a shot, since my bloody hands are still sore from doing the ecto's. He seems to be doing pretty good with it. He doesn't have a lot of time to play though, but if someone has hours upon hours to do this, they'd probably come out with a hefty profit quickly.

It's all about watching prices, knowing what to look for, and thinking up different ways you can make a profit with the system.

#55 Wballstarz

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 12:49 PM

The system is nice for getting cheap gear/mats, so that should equal out the economy for most people. The features do mean though that those that dont plan ahead have to pay more, which is where money can be made. Its Anets attempt IMO to make the game appeal more and more to the casual. They dont seem to mind if your not playing 24/7 like wow, aslong as you do play now and again, buy the odd thing on the gem shop and buy the xpacks. Which is fair.

I made money on the TP, but only from mats I gathered. Due to some of its tools, it seems that people are feeling that the TP is god. As in, its not socially acceptable to sell in trade chat, (why?, if i sell it to your 5% less then the TP, I still save 10% from the listing fee, which could become important), and people salvaging items for a fraction of their worth.

Will be interesting to see where it goes.

#56 pratt1085

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:48 AM

Wrong, you didn't even need alot of patience although the item flipping market has become that competitive that iv retired from this, I made roughly 250g from buying runes off tp low and selling high, usually having orders on about 40 different ones, all with profit margins of atleast 80% pre tp cuts, of course you won't get them sort of margins anymore as everyone is doing it, but its paid for my spark, 100 icy runestones, 100 molten lodestones, 100 destroyer lodestones and 400 glob's of ecto ; P

#57 Saintray1

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 01:21 PM

I see the flipping people are also making a big mistake.. They put an option on stuff for value under merchant value. Whenever someone tries to sell his stuff, he will see it's not possible to sell to the TP because of the lower value.

So you can put options of stuff for that lower price, however, you cannot sell stuff for that price.
Hense, putoptions stay there at low, keeping the prices themselves low for people who actually will sell it and see those putoptions at such low prices.

Idiotflippers with no idea about prices and merchant prices make it impossible for people like you to make the profit you are looking for.

#58 Blixcoe

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 01:30 PM

that ''hot-topic crafting material'' that was mentioned, might that be ecto? I have seen ecto's in gw2 :) they're crafting level 400 mats.

#59 phobos

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 01:46 PM

Habitually broke gamers are perpetually poor because they approach the market the wrong way.  They look at their tradeskills and see stuff selling for a loss.  Half will quit trying right there,  Some will poke around a bit more and lookup stuff off the top of their heads but it's the same stuff that everyone thinks up.  95% don't get much further than that.  A few might look online or talk in chat about making money and get an idea but as soon as "everybody" hears about it, the opportunity has passed (but maybe only temporarily).

I hear players are getting rich and it becomes a puzzle and a scavenger hunt for me.  There is gold to be made, I need to find it.

If a player wants to earn money in game it takes time and effort and creativity.  Not a ton of it necessarily, just some. It's not going to be made from mindlessly hitting the same one or two buttons everyone has and plunking it on the TP thoughtlessly.

#60 Mustache Mayhem

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 07:17 PM

you could flip.. but crafting is where it's at- guys making the money are either buying rares and pulling the money out the sleeves or crafting them..

I could care less myself.. I want the god set and that takes karma- noticed people are too lazy to go for legendaries too.. but they'll sit on the tp all day and flip.. how is that fun? and your not getting the skill points you need to get the real rare stuff in the game..





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