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pve dungeons gameplay

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#1 Kendei

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 09:35 PM

I've got a general question about the dungeons in the game. Before I start explaining anything, I'll just go ahead and ask it: Is there a certain art form/learning curve to doing them?

The reason why I ask is that pretty much every group I've had and every dungeon I've gone to (up to the 60 dungeon, Sorrow's Embrace) has been pretty much the same thing. By same thing I mean: Fight, die, res people, run back.
  • The level 30 dungeon, AC, seemed like a lot of this. I went with three different groups.
  • The level 40 dungeon, CM, was a lot more balanced it seemed. Either that, or incredibly easy. No groups I went with had a problem.
  • The level 50 dungeon was an absolute death fest. I knew what to do, but a lot of the normal mobs seemed much harder than the actual bosses themselves--aside from the poison guy. I never died (Mesmer), but I spent the majority of my time kiting everything with a mixture of portals and illusions while the rest of my party made the infamous death run.
  • More recently (last night) I ran the level 60 dungeon, Sorrow's Embrace. We made it to the 2nd to last boss and just got steam rolled when he hit about 50% and summoned the second golem. Some of the mobs beforehand also seemed really powerful, killing a good majority of my group.
So, that's pretty much what I've noticed. Are the dungeons considered a little out of tune for the players, or are they meant to be like that and there're just some tricks and such that I'm not noticing? Any pointers will help!

For further information, my general playstyle is as such, in no particular order:
  • Feedback around group/on ranged mobs.
  • Cleanse on group
  • Send in clones to stun groups of enemies when CD is up.
  • Weapons are greatsword/staff, or sword+pistol/staff
So.. Tips?

#2 Fatalis

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 09:42 PM

Dungeons are meant to be for coordinated groups, I think the difficulty is at a fine spot (except for CM which is really easy).

Once you figure out the mechanics of all the fights, they're really not that hard.

For example, in the boss fight with the flame golem in Sorrow's Embrace, you need to change your build in order to put in a ton of condition removal. Once you have that, as long as when you see him preparing the attack and dodge accordingly out of the circles, you shouldn't have a problem. For the times that you do get hit, you use your condition removal. If you have AoE condi removal, then you obviously work with your team in order to save cooldowns. Furthermore, you can escape getting hit again if you have any reflection skills, such as the guardian's wall of reflection. Using that skill alone, you can avoid a ton of trouble with that boss fight.

Too many people can just easily go through the PvE world without any trouble, or trying to learn how to optimally play their build, and when they go to dungeons, it's not surprising that they get stomped.

#3 Kendei

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 10:05 PM

I figured that was the case. I think it'll just be hard to find a decent group that is coordinated when it comes to PUGs. Thanks for the response!

#4 Endael

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 04:42 AM

Agreed.  The dungeons force players to pay a lot more attention to enemy tells (windups for swings, etc.) than some players may in the PvE world.  That said, it made me happy to be an elementalist.  Being so squishy means I do a lot of paying attention, dodging, and adapting.  The ranger and turret engineer both had the hardest time, being so used to standing and shooting.

I'm glad of the difficulty of the fights.  GW2 is a game where you aren't playing the UI like some MMOs have become.  I used to love playing whack-a-mole with the health bars as a healer, but this experience is so much more engaging and fulfilling.

#5 Sieran

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 04:52 AM

View PostFatalis, on 09 September 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

Dungeons are meant to be for coordinated groups, I think the difficulty is at a fine spot (except for CM which is really easy).

Once you figure out the mechanics of all the fights, they're really not that hard.

*snip* such as the guardian's wall of reflection

Agreed with all of this - I'd also add HotW as one that is pretty easy, though not on the level of CM. CoF is relatively easy as well. For my money, AC is probably the hardest of any of them, which I think is giving people an impression that the dungeons as a whole are harder than they are.

For SE, guardianway is the way to go. Wall of reflection destroys the golems, and the miniboss before the forgeman. We made it through no wipes my first time with 3 guardians.

Explorable mode, however, is another story. There's one stupidly easy one (2nd path in CoF), but haven't been able to finish a path on any others -_-

#6 Kuurde

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 11:14 AM

So far I still have very little experience with the dungeons. But what annoys me immensely is that you they hit so hard you die in 3 hits. Which also makes almost all form of support you can put out, seem pretty ineffective if they hit that crazy hard. (A group heal of ~600 with a 20 sec or longer cooldown when mobs easily hit 2k+ ..) Atleast that's my experience and not liking the dungeons at all ..

Edited by Kuurde, 10 September 2012 - 11:14 AM.


#7 Wildclaw

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 10:29 AM

View PostKendei, on 09 September 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

The level 30 dungeon, AC, seemed like a lot of this. I went with three different groups.

There are really only four reasons for wiping in AC.
  • Underestimating "trash" mob packs and not using soft cc/focus fire, or gearing glass cannon melee.
  • Pulling rangers while in trap room.
  • Not using LoS to pull the 3xranger group.
  • Failing to separate the lovers.

Quote

The level 50 dungeon was an absolute death fest. I knew what to do, but a lot of the normal mobs seemed much harder than the actual bosses themselves--aside from the poison guy. I never died (Mesmer), but I spent the majority of my time kiting everything with a mixture of portals and illusions while the rest of my party made the infamous death run.

Sounds more like a problem with your party. I would say that there are three "difficult spots" in TA. (unless you as above mentioned, underestimate the "trash" mobs and don't work to reduce incoming damage).
  • The spider boss until you realize that you should just run away from the spiders. Of course, as a staff elementalist I run from everything, so all I had to do was wait for the rest of my group to come back before finishing the boss.
  • 2xCasters after the spider boss as it is in a relatively confined area so the AoE is quite difficult to avoid.
  • The last boss since the ranger can deal a huge amount of damage and the melee can do some nasty things if you don't control them properly.
The first two just require good tactics. The third is mostly about playing it safely and treating it is a difficult trash pack. Just use the corner in the corridor leading to the boss to LoS/retreat around and everything should go fine.

Quote

More recently (last night) I ran the level 60 dungeon, Sorrow's Embrace. We made it to the 2nd to last boss and just got steam rolled when he hit about 50% and summoned the second golem. Some of the mobs beforehand also seemed really powerful, killing a good majority of my group.

Everyone needs condition removal on that golem. And spread out a bit of course. Other than that, as long as everyone has somewhat decent reflexes and you revive the occasional downed player, things should go fine.

That boss really emphasizes your ability to play as a team by forcing you to spread out most of the time, but encouraging you to get back closer for AoE cleansing/healing. Keeping an eye on the health of team mates helps a lot.

But really, it is a pure endurance fight.

#8 Yllibas

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:08 PM

I just finished Story mode for Sorrow's Embrace last night and that Fire Golem was a serious bummer. It set us back a good 30 minutes or so. This is the problem I have with GW2 dungeons - they seem difficult for the wrong reasons.

Monsters in the dungeons are just straight up overpowered requiring players to constantly warp to waypoints after dying just to rush back in the fight so the enemy doesn't regenerate health. That fire golem for example felt a little cheap. That thing rarely missed you when it threw fireballs out. It's one thing to have it cause burning on every attack but it's another to practically have close to 100% accuracy on its projectiles. Maybe there's a trick to beating it a little more easily that doesn't require having to run back from a waypoint. But if there was a trick, it was no obvious.

Instead of having monsters, bosses in dungeons possess insane abilities and extremely high hp, ANET should figure out some way to present a challenge to dungeon goers without just OPing the mobs. I'd much rather have a more thinking challenge instead of the "rush the mob, frantic, jump around, spam skills" challenge. I know dungeons aren't supposed to be that way but players die a freaking lot in dungeons. That is fact. Dying a ton of times isn't fun, and if ANET's version of "difficult" means equipping bosses with insta-kill abilities so that players die, resulting in broken armor, which acts as a way to siphon coin to keep the economy stable, it feels gimmicky. Don't get me wrong, I like dungeons, I think they are fun but sometimes it feels like there should be more strategy involved. Because right now, some bosses simply are too damned strong for any tactics a group throws at it leaving players only one choice: die, respawn, rush at it, repeat.

This post is sort of fast but I only have a limited time and wanted to write this out before I forgot about it. I just wish that dungeon bosses were challenging but not cheap. Games like Shadow of the Colossus was fun, and the giants there provided great challenges but they weren't at all cheap. I know it's a different style of game but I'm just using that as reference. With some of those bosses, it felt like I was playing Dark Souls or something. But even that game rewarded players by dodging his and attacking at certain times. I guess I'm just really pissed at that fire golem because no matter how much you dodged, it still hit ya with fire. And there's only so many condition removals and cool down timers. Agh!

/end rant

:D

#9 CoffeeMug

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 06:07 AM

View PostYllibas, on 13 September 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

Instead of having monsters, bosses in dungeons possess insane abilities and extremely high hp, ANET should figure out some way to present a challenge to dungeon goers without just OPing the mobs. I'd much rather have a more thinking challenge instead of the "rush the mob, frantic, jump around, spam skills" challenge. I know dungeons aren't supposed to be that way but players die a freaking lot in dungeons. That is fact. Dying a ton of times isn't fun, and if ANET's version of "difficult" means equipping bosses with insta-kill abilities so that players die, resulting in broken armor, which acts as a way to siphon coin to keep the economy stable, it feels gimmicky.

This very succinctly tells the story of dungeons in GW2.  I know a lot of people claim to like what ArenaNet has done, but I have fun playing every single other piece of content they've created for the game... except dungeons.

I hate GW2's dungeons.

I sincerely hope these dungeons are not the 'future of MMOs'.  They seem like design done wrong when everything else is done right.  I'm glad some people are getting enjoyment out of them, and normally I'm the first in line to sing endlessly the praises of ANet.  But I'm afraid in this one case I have to say that I feel like they've dropped the ball.

For reference, I've played the story modes on all the dungeons with a guild group on Teamspeak.  A group who, I might add, now doesn't want to do any of the explorable modes because the dungeons have all been wipe-fests where we spend a ton of money on repairs and get nothing but frustration. Certainly not any kind of meaningful reward.

#10 Nivrax

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 09:23 AM

It seems like they looked at WoW and though that they will be special by inverting everything.

Control with tank/heal/dps -> chaotic pvp-like fights
First dungeon extremely easy, increasing difficulty and mechanics as you progress -> first dungeon very hard from start, nothing to prepare people for it when soloing.
Thrash being 'break' between bosses -> thrash harder than some bosses they guard
Thrash always pull together, it's a group that is challenge you need to overcome -> can exploit mob leash to bring single mobs destroying supposed challenge
Hard hitting skills on mobs have long cast time, can and should be interrupted, have cooldown if successfull -> hard hitting skills instant, no way to tell if mob is going to wipe you with aoe or do autoattack, interrupt have no effect on skill CD and mob will cast it again
One life per encounter, wipe means reset -> Graveyard zerg
Bosses having cast bar and often rich voice acting in case of powerful attacks or mechanics -> one shot attacks often with no cue, or hidden behind particles
Very clear void zones, easily distinguishable apart from helpfull/team aoe even in 25 man raids -> small barely noticeable circles sometimes blending with terrain, easy to mistake for ally skill, even in 5 man drowning in special effects all over screen decreasing visibility

The only thing that they manage right is first point, the difference is refreshing in change of pace, rest is just terrible. In every single game, you die, you lose. Graveyard zerging should not be a valid tactic, ever! I would really like to have encounters closed to get back until group either wins or wipes, if only to shut up people saying difficulty is fine WHILE bum-rushing mobs to 'win'.

Trash mobs are together for a reason, you pull one, you pull all, point is to defeat whole group. Pulling one apart is pure exploiting weak mob AI. I hope they will improve that.

Insta kill abilities are fine IF they are clearly shown. Some mobs have 2-3 second windup on their attacks, if you stand in the it's your fault. Others like snipers in CM require you to spot a target circle under you are less fine, since it's just illusion of charging, if you don't notice it the moment it appears under your feet, you can't time dodge, and mob itself from what I seen just aim with no cues when it will pull trigger. Some just maul you instantly, with no chance to roll.

Void zones that are same color as arena you are fighting on. Foefire on King Adalberk is best example, light bluish small flames on a bluish floor, bonus point if you have blue-ish flame inducting Guardian in party.

Visuals in this game are great, but work completely against what ANet is trying to push (looking at mob, not his castbar, to know what is coming your way), they are all over the screen, to the point finding enemy in them seems more like Find Wally. I believe they said that they don't want addons in game so that you fight enemies, not ui, but currently, I'm not fighting enemies, I'm fighting with my teammates spells.

Camera not having ability to zoom out while you must watch for every mob yourself is... well, not bad design, but they aren't sticking to it. If you want to have limited PoV in game, you should not be able to rotate camera without rotating character, making looking around impossible if fighting a mob. That would be fine. But you can do that, yet somehow can't zoom it out to have better view on battlefield, so the most efficient way to play is tapping 'look behind key', getting dizzy irl, but having pretty much 360 degree fov. Just let me zoom out instead :(.

Less damage from 'auto' attacks, keep one shots in but give better way to predict them, let me turn down others effect, more visible void zones, THEN disable ability to zerg rush (one live, one try) and you still have hard dungeons, but with less cheap effects and deaths that you can say was your fault every time.

#11 Kanto

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 11:11 AM

View PostNivrax, on 14 September 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

It seems like they looked at WoW and though that they will be special by inverting everything.

Control with tank/heal/dps -> chaotic pvp-like fights
First dungeon extremely easy, increasing difficulty and mechanics as you progress -> first dungeon very hard from start, nothing to prepare people for it when soloing.
Thrash being 'break' between bosses -> thrash harder than some bosses they guard
Thrash always pull together, it's a group that is challenge you need to overcome -> can exploit mob leash to bring single mobs destroying supposed challenge
Hard hitting skills on mobs have long cast time, can and should be interrupted, have cooldown if successfull -> hard hitting skills instant, no way to tell if mob is going to wipe you with aoe or do autoattack, interrupt have no effect on skill CD and mob will cast it again
One life per encounter, wipe means reset -> Graveyard zerg
Bosses having cast bar and often rich voice acting in case of powerful attacks or mechanics -> one shot attacks often with no cue, or hidden behind particles
Very clear void zones, easily distinguishable apart from helpfull/team aoe even in 25 man raids -> small barely noticeable circles sometimes blending with terrain, easy to mistake for ally skill, even in 5 man drowning in special effects all over screen decreasing visibility

The only thing that they manage right is first point, the difference is refreshing in change of pace, rest is just terrible. In every single game, you die, you lose. Graveyard zerging should not be a valid tactic, ever! I would really like to have encounters closed to get back until group either wins or wipes, if only to shut up people saying difficulty is fine WHILE bum-rushing mobs to 'win'.

Trash mobs are together for a reason, you pull one, you pull all, point is to defeat whole group. Pulling one apart is pure exploiting weak mob AI. I hope they will improve that.

Insta kill abilities are fine IF they are clearly shown. Some mobs have 2-3 second windup on their attacks, if you stand in the it's your fault. Others like snipers in CM require you to spot a target circle under you are less fine, since it's just illusion of charging, if you don't notice it the moment it appears under your feet, you can't time dodge, and mob itself from what I seen just aim with no cues when it will pull trigger. Some just maul you instantly, with no chance to roll.

Void zones that are same color as arena you are fighting on. Foefire on King Adalberk is best example, light bluish small flames on a bluish floor, bonus point if you have blue-ish flame inducting Guardian in party.

Visuals in this game are great, but work completely against what ANet is trying to push (looking at mob, not his castbar, to know what is coming your way), they are all over the screen, to the point finding enemy in them seems more like Find Wally. I believe they said that they don't want addons in game so that you fight enemies, not ui, but currently, I'm not fighting enemies, I'm fighting with my teammates spells.

Camera not having ability to zoom out while you must watch for every mob yourself is... well, not bad design, but they aren't sticking to it. If you want to have limited PoV in game, you should not be able to rotate camera without rotating character, making looking around impossible if fighting a mob. That would be fine. But you can do that, yet somehow can't zoom it out to have better view on battlefield, so the most efficient way to play is tapping 'look behind key', getting dizzy irl, but having pretty much 360 degree fov. Just let me zoom out instead :(.

Less damage from 'auto' attacks, keep one shots in but give better way to predict them, let me turn down others effect, more visible void zones, THEN disable ability to zerg rush (one live, one try) and you still have hard dungeons, but with less cheap effects and deaths that you can say was your fault every time.

I'll quote this in full. This has been exactly my experience in GW2 dungeons. You could have been living inside my head and typed out my thoughts..

The lack of wind-up warning, the lack of tells (voice overs or otherwise), the trash harder than the bosses (why hello there Diablo 3!), the lack of agro, the expectation of using Dodge to survive but a boss staying glued to us for 20 seconds while we can dodge only twice in that time frame, the death zerging.

I love the game and how I level without even noticing, how the downleveling makes going to low areas and feel as if they were new, instead of lowbie, but the dungeons leave me scratching my head.

Each time I play a 'non trinity' game it devolves into chaos and one shots. Interestingly enough my runs in GW2 all went better with one person healing and another tanking.

#12 SpoonyBard

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 11:23 AM

Tip for Sorrows Embrace Story mode.  When the 2nd Golem from Kudu comes out create iWardens around it.  Blocks nearly all of the projectiles making the fight considerably easier.  Make sure your party is all range, so the golem keeps trying to attack them and avoid killing the phantasms.  Putting enough points into Illusions to get Phantasmal Haste improves the wall dramatically.

My general dungeon experience so far has been go to a new dungeon, get wrecked, figure out why we got wrecked, adjust try again.  Some times it works great, sometimes.

Edited by SpoonyBard, 14 September 2012 - 11:35 AM.


#13 thrakkemarn

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 06:21 PM

I had to make a post after seeing some of the stuff in here. I can't believe so many people are having trouble with the basics of dungeons. The first time I went into AC with a group of friends, yes we wiped a lot because we had no idea what to expect or what the mechanics were. The next day we went back and steamrolled the joint. Now we've done the level 40 and 50 dungeon and a few explorable modes, and it gets easier everytime.

Bosses (just like every enemy) have VERY distinct tells and/or repeated attacks. If you are playing by watching your UI instead of the enemy, watching for the animation signaling an attack, you are playing wrong. Enemies will either show an animation you can avoid, or have a very specific attack (such as a charge or snipe) that will probably 1-shot you, and need to be controlled (BLIND BLIND BLIND!) kited or LOS ... if you get hit you should be supported by your team to get back up.

Also, you have to know your group. If you are running a high-dps group, have ways to get people back on their feet. Make sure you know which mobs to focus target and which ones need to be controlled with debuffs (BLIND BLIND BLIND!).

Along with knowing your group, know what combos you can do! Combos are the key to ultimate power! For example, I run a Necro with darkness fields and poison fields, and as such all of my blast finishers and my party's are throwing out AoE Blind and AoE Weakness on every trash pack we come across. Guess how much damage a Ranger's snipe does when he misses?

Even with PUGs, I've had decent luck. The worst group I've run was in the level 50 dungeon (that place is rough) with some PUGs but we still got through it, and it was our first time and our control sucked. Repeated runs I expect to go much better.

In short, dungeons may not be for everyone, but they are very managable if you are prepared and work together. I am NOT saying they are easy or that everyone should enjoy them, but from some of these posts you'd think they're impossible or a just a time/money sink. They aren't. In fact, I've made a decent profit in silver off of every run I've done, even the wipe-heavy runs, as well as getting some good gear and tokens from Explorable modes!

p.s. TBH I came in here hoping to find some tips on dungeons, and I'm sure there are people with WAY better advice than mine, but I hope this helps encourage more people to try dungeons!

Edited by thrakkemarn, 14 September 2012 - 06:23 PM.


#14 Niranj

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 12:51 AM

They really need to work in some kind of in game combo tutorial, as it stands now it seems like barely anyone understands how powerful it is in group play. As thrakkemarn pointed out, the combo system isn't just there as a bonus, explore mode dungeons are clearly tuned in such a way that you really need to use the combo system to your advantage. Leave the selfish builds outside and use a spec that benefits the group by way of boons and conditions, combo fields and finishers.





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