9 replies to this topic

[Andy88]

I played a couple of explo mode dungeons and also story mode. The thing i don't get is why the dungeon system is designed as grind? First off this is not about the "need" or "requirement" to grind dungeons, but simply about either those minority of condition builds that wants (Condition DMG/Precision/Toughness) or u simply want the dungeon armor for the cool looks.

So assuming u decided u want to get this bad ass looking armor, what now? U basically need to run one specific dungeon like 44-60 times, for a set + weapon. Since most dungeons have one faster/easier option, u will practically run the same dungeon path/variation for 1-2 weeks.

Why is this bad? Simply because its the same crappy system we have in other MMO's and i hoped ArenaNet would come up with a better solution.


Problems of the Dungeon system:

- unique dungeon tokes for each dungeon, requiring to run the same over and over = grind
- no to very little incentive for others to run "your" dungeon, if they don't need/want the armor
- punishing minorities, if u run a condition build, all the power builds wont try to get "your" armor in this dungeon, making forming groups even more harder
- no dungeon cross server LFG system, this means depending on the dungeon u will wait for 10min-1h to get a group together


Possible fixes:

- remove the unique tokens, so that each dungeons yields the same tokens
- add a cross server dungeon system and a actual LFG system, making grouping faster more comfortable
- change the cost of sets, if u run all explo mode dungeon paths once, u should be able to buy a full set or at least 4 pieces, this should be the "dungeon explo mode completion" reward



Summary: So instead of 44-60 runs of the same explo mode, i would prefer to simply run all dungeons explo modes once and be able to get one set i like. This would feel much more less grindy and also makes forming groups more easy.

So now keep discussing

[NeonArlecchino]

I see a couple problems in your suggestion.

Dungeon armors are something you work for, that is why there are multiple runs. There aren't many long term goals in this game, why remove one of the few there are?

Unique tokens are because running a level 35 dungeon for 80 armor is silly and so they can be used in legendary crafting. Blame immersion, blame balance, blame what you like but I do not see this change ever happening.

Both suggestions would require massive increases in difficulty in every explorable dungeon to make up for them and ensure no explorable dungeon is viewed as the easiest. Then there's also the issue of stats dropping to fit the new low price.

Your own suggestions would likely hurt you more than the current system. You mention a long wait time to get a group together, but why would players take a random when only a few runs are needed and friends are usually more reliable? Why risk repeated death because one player isn't up to the difficulty when the gear would likely no longer have the top stats?

The only part of this suggestion which seems possibly viable would be a dungeon finder but ArenaNet has said they want people to talk, build a community on their server, and have explorable dungeons require top coordination so I am not aware of their current position on one.

[Aveneo]

NeonArlecchino, on 11 September 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

Unique tokens are because running a level 35 dungeon for 80 armor is silly and so they can be used in legendary crafting. Blame immersion, blame balance, blame what you like but I do not see this change ever happening.

Just a small point regarding this section of your response, but people already need to run a level 35 dungeon for a level 60 weapon. Apparently there were level 35 Rare weapons at some point for 1/3 of the token cost (according to the wiki), but ArenaNet removed those and only kept the level 60 ones (at 3 times the token cost).

If anything, I was hoping for less of a grind. I would have loved to do AC a couple of times and then buy an Ascalonian Greatsword skin to put on my level 35+ weapon.

Edited by Aveneo, 11 September 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[Kuro1n]

This game has way too little grind already, don't get rid of the little that is still left. :/

[AMIX_GW2]

you people and the term "grind" ...you still have no idea what true meaning of grind is..stop blowing crap out of proportion

[JemL]

is one of the features for the ''whats left to do at lvl 80'' topic makers

[Andy88]

Wow, so cant distinguish anymore between content that is worth working/playing or has some sort of replay-ability and pure stupid grind?

I define "grind" doing the same thing over and over without any risk or complicated thinking involved, for the sole purpose of acquiring something. I see all those players grinding CoF/CM atm in even so called "farm" runs. This is worse than queuing up in WoW/Rift instances, since at least u don't run just 1 instance over and over. The explo modes are a joke, if one variation is easier/faster to farm, with the same rewards.

Quote

you people and the term "grind" ...you still have no idea what true meaning of grind is..stop blowing crap out of proportion

So u think because something is less "grind" u arnt allowed to label it as such? I finished CoF like 10 times now and after run 3 it became pure GRIND, since no one talks anymore, everyone knows what to-do and there is no risk of "failing" anymore. This for me means GRIND and i will soon stop doing it, since it is such obvious and stupid grind that i cant bear it for much longer.

In contrast i would not "label" WvWvW as grind, even if it takes longer, since i still need to use my brain and communicate with peoples. The only damn problem here are the stupid queue times, which ruin the whole system for me.

[Alemoot]

Because it was popular in EotN.

[bdatty]

I disagree with your same token suggestion. This will defeat the purpose of other dungeons and make you go for the one you like effectively ruining the variety that each dungeon gives unique encounters to their own. The grind itself is there for psychological reasons. Why would you ever do a dungeon once and get all the gear you want and never do it again? It destroys the purpose of 'working' for it. This concept has been instilled for the longest time, and many game companies will agree.

As for LFG and other aspect, that's all personal point of view. I'm doing fine in my guild and in pugs

[Andy88]

bdatty, on 13 September 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

It destroys the purpose of 'working' for it. This concept has been instilled for the longest time, and many game companies will agree.

So for u grind equals "working" for it and u reason that because something did exist for a period of time, therefor it must be a good system? This is a weak or even invalid argument, since any new system/change that replaces a other will invalidate such a argument. As example, most MMO used to regen health extremely slowly and also had harsh death penalties, yet thats not present anymore in the last generation. I could use your argument and say WoW feature XY is there for x amount of time therefor it must be great!

Also u notice that "grindy" game mechanics are mainly present in MMO's, while nearly all single player games try to avoid such mechanics? Designing a system that than feels "grindy" is almost always the result of resource short-comings in the development process. This simply means that the company had no time/money/personal to do anything better or the feature was not important enough.

I think MMO players in particular are so blinded by the present MMO game mechanics, that they cant imagine any other way of doing things, which results in even defending weak or technical limited game design.

Edited by Andy88, 13 September 2012 - 06:38 PM.