142 replies to this topic

[The Dreadnought]

This is a continuation to my earlyer thief thread, I figured I would kill 2 birds with one stone.


Two classes me and many others find too powerful currently, I will start with the Thief.

Thief- I mean they already have amazing mobility, able to get across the map almost as fast as an elementalist, their burst is insane with pistol whip or heartseeker strike spamming alone, They can burst you down in a couple seconds with their band of these elite plus 2 extra thieves alone, it’s crazy.
Couple that with the ability to dodge every second and immobalize you, you cannot dodge or do anything to stop your death, not to mention the ability to stealth and teleport around when you kill them.
HS/PW are considered OP by many when used with quickness.
That’s the main problem people have along with HS being a gap closer and a burst skill that can be spammed, doing more and more DMG as the target HP is lower.
So even if you dodge, the thief will be on top of you using HS. Also if he is out of initiative he can steal on yourkitten and if traited correctly, it will give him more initiative to just HS/PW you again.
Most people getkitten because in order to survive the thief, most classes need your major cooldowns/elite up, along with full endurance.
1-2 minutes into a fight you are exposed to thiefs burstin you down if below or around 80% HP.
Mesmer- Mesmers have the ability to play 4 roles in one build instead of being able to focus on only phantasms, or illusion, but they can do everything, have great survivability, do insane damage, have 3 illusions at once? It’s already hard enough to find the right one!
The “Moa Morph” Elite is far too powerful, It’s basically a 10 second stun. Sure you can move, but very slowly and you do no damage at all.
Downed state on Mesmers is more annoying than thieves, they make a copy of themselves on the ground similar to a thief teleporting around with stealth making you waste much more time trying to down them.
Their ability to play every role (Not to mention the annoyingness of a portal mesmer repairing the trebuchet), do insane amounts of damage (especially with greatsword/pistol sword), Have fantastic survivability, and spam clones of yourself to confuse your enemy’s makes this class too powerful. They can be single handedly the best 1v1 class in the game.
Make it so mesmers have to actually invest points into say phantasms, supporting, power/damage output to focus on 1 single role instead of being able to play 3+ roles in one build.
Opinions?

Edited by The Dreadnought, 11 September 2012 - 10:28 PM.

[UssjTrunks]

Thieves aren't so bad in 1v1s because of how squishy they are (unless they have TG off of cooldown). It's when they sneak up on you in a group fight and spike you down that they're annoying.

Memsers are absolute beasts 1v1 though. If I see a mesmer at a capture point, I won't engage until I can get a teammate to go with me. They are very, very strong in 1v1s (however, I don't believe they are an OP class because the game isn't balanced around 1v1). Moa morph and teleport are definitely two very OP abilities though.

Their downed skills are completely OP. You waste far too much time trying to stomp them, and are often unable to in group fights. They should only be allowed to teleport once, just like other classes can only knock you down/back once (except eles, who can't do anything while downed ).

Edited by UssjTrunks, 11 September 2012 - 10:51 PM.

[Koosti]

Well, i've seen threads like this a lot since i started to browse these forums and finally i decided to express what i feel about mesmers/thieves whine.


I'll talk about Thieves, because i play a Thief myself, sword/pistol one. So, it might sound like i'm trying to defend my OP class,but i really don't, and i'll try to explain why.
Whiile i see your point, and can understand why some of you might be a little bit frustrated with thieves "spamming" their abilities, i feel like you are missing one very important thing, that we simply have no other options to do good dmg. Let's take for example my weapon combo, what else can i use to even compete with let's say a warrior, or mesmer, or any of the classes, really? Black Powder?- no, Head Shot?-no, Slice Combo?- we could, but would we win any fight using only our "basic attack", when other classes uses all of their abilities? No we wouldn't. Then maybe Infiltrator's Strike? Nope, still NO, only viable damage source in sword/pistol combo is Pistol Whip. That being said i personally think that skill is borderline op, not entierly, because it has a cast time, you can see the animation to dodge away, blink or whatever, it also roots the thief, and can be interrupted by certain skills. I know, that you canuse it with Haste to somehow negate its downsides, but what sucks about thief's haste is that it empties his endurance bar and prevents it from regenerating, so basically  when he uses it, and somehow fails to land a PW (you can use a stunbreaker for example), or for few secods after it he is a sitting duck, and that's why i don't use it personally. So all in all, I can see why lots of people wants the nerf for this ability, but bear in mind that unless they will make it a total crap, we still WILL use it more than other abilities simply because we don't have much choice. "Spamming" abilities by thieves is not the case of balance issues in my opinion, but it's the case of character design.
Same goes for HS only that i'd wish to play, and see other D/D thieves playing more as THE stealth thieves rather than "spam HS all day long" thieves, and It's possible to play that way very well (at least in sPvP), only that using just HS is easier than Cloak and Dagger and Backstab, not better, just easier, because CnD does decent damage, and Backstab does crazy damage, but the thing is that by spamming HS is much easier and gives similar results. While i would like to see something done about the fact that D/D thieves HAVE other way of doing crazy dmg (through CnD/Backstab), but they're still choosing to walk the easier path, we can't forget that there still exists the D/P combo that in order to do the Backstab has to either use Black Powder+HS(which takes like 9 init) or burn the utility skill
and besides that they're left with HS only. And that's why it would be hard to balance HS.

Thanks if you read all this, cause it was quite a wall of text. One last thing i want to say is that all i want is for most of the whiners to realize, that "spamming" abilities by thieves is not always a sign of being noob, but the way the classes were designed, and to ask you to be patient, because if the devs decide to balance the OP classes, and i'm pretty sure they eventually will, it WILL take some time, because they also need to think about ways of doing this without destroying their unique playstyles and designes, and in case of Mesmers and Thieves this will be even harder.

Regards, and apologies for bad english.

Edited by Koosti, 11 September 2012 - 10:25 PM.

[Yonnystarr]

The Dreadnought, on 11 September 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Mesmer- Mesmers have the ability to play 4 roles in one build instead of being able to focus on only phantasms, or illusion, but they can do everything, have great survivability, do insane damage, have 5+ illusions at once? It’s already hard enough to find the right one!
The “Moa Morph” Elite is far too powerful, It’s basically a 10 second stun. Sure you can move, but very slowly and you do no damage at all.
Downed state on Mesmers is more annoying than thieves, they make a copy of themselves on the ground similar to a thief teleporting around with stealth making you waste much more time trying to down them.
Their ability to play every role (Not to mention the annoyingness of a portal mesmer repairing the trebuchet), do insane amounts of damage (especially with greatsword/pistol sword), Have fantastic survivability, and spam clones of yourself to confuse your enemy’s makes this class too powerful. They can be single handedly the best 1v1 class in the game.
Make it so mesmers have to actually invest points into say phantasms, supporting, power/damage output to focus on 1 single role instead of being able to play 3+ roles in one build.
Opinions?

I don't want to seem biased, so I'm not going to comment on whether mesmers are actually OP or not. What needs fixing is up to Arenanet to decide, not us players after we have had a few frustrating encounters. I will just correct you on some misinformation you are spreading.

Mesmers can only have three illusions out max. It is impossible to have five illusions out at once; if you create anymore than three your earliest illusion will be destroyed.

Moa Morph elite is not a stun. You can move and the movement speed is faster than regular running speed, not slower. Whenever I am morphed I just run away and come back a bit before the timer wears off.

Regarding the mesmer downed ability to stealth, teleport, and create a downed clone. It's not hard to figure out which is the real mesmer. After the mesmer disappears, the clone will spawn first. The real mesmer always reappears after the clone spawns. Also, the real mesmer has a little mark above his head while the clone has nothing. The downed ability is practically useless against players who know to identify the real mesmer before hastily stomping away at the first thing they see. It's baffling how some people continue to fall for the clone.

Mesmer portal with trebuchet should be fixed.

A bit of advice I will offer any player having trouble with a particular profession/build is to play that build yourself. After a few hours of playing that character you'll really start to understand how the profession works - you will learn their weaknesses, their strengths, how to capitalize on those weaknesses, and how to work around their strengths.

Mesmer is my favorite profession as of now, but I have played every single profession for several hours. It's amazing how much you can grow by putting yourself in the shoes of others.

Edited by Yonnystarr, 11 September 2012 - 10:32 PM.

[The Dreadnought]

Yonnystarr, on 11 September 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

I don't want to seem biased, so I'm not going to comment on whether mesmers are actually OP or not. What needs fixing is up to Arenanet to decide, not us players after we have had a few frustrating encounters. I will just correct you on some misinformation you are spreading.

Mesmers can only have three illusions out max. It is impossible to have five illusions out at once; if you create anymore than three your earliest illusion will be destroyed.

Moa Morph elite is not a stun. You can move and the movement speed is faster than regular running speed, not slower. Whenever I am morphed I just run away and come back a bit before the timer wears off.

Regarding the mesmer downed ability to stealth, teleport, and create a downed clone. It's not hard to figure out which is the real mesmer. After the mesmer disappears, the clone will spawn first. The real mesmer always reappears after the clone spawns. Also, the real mesmer has a little mark above his head while the clone has nothing. Good players always stomp the real mesmer and ignore the clone. It's baffling how some people continue to fall for the clone.

Mesmer portal with trebuchet should be fixed.

I was overexaggerating about the illusions, but there I fixed it if it makes you guys see it. Do you really think a skilled mesmer would let you run away while moa'd till the duration runs out?

[Yonnystarr]

The Dreadnought, on 11 September 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

I was overexaggerating about the illusions, but there I fixed it if it makes you guys see it. Do you really think a skilled mesmer would let you run away while moa'd till the duration runs out?

Your credibility goes down when you exaggerate.
Whether the mesmer will invest his focus and cooldowns to make sure you stay where you are is a different story. You spread misinformation that moa moves very slowly, when in fact it is actually faster than regular running speed.

[Ghazal]

Some boards delete repetitive threads.  I wish they'd do so in this case.  This one generates misinformation and doesn't add a single new perspective to any of the other conversations about WvW classes so far.

[UssjTrunks]

The Dreadnought, on 11 September 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

I was overexaggerating about the illusions, but there I fixed it if it makes you guys see it. Do you really think a skilled mesmer would let you run away while moa'd till the duration runs out?

The whole point of moa morph is to take you out of the game for 10s, not to kill you. A good mesmer will actually let you run away while they stomp your team (which is now fighting shorthanded for 10s).

Edited by UssjTrunks, 11 September 2012 - 10:54 PM.

[The Dreadnought]

UssjTrunks, on 11 September 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

The whole point of moa morph is to take you out of the game for 10s, not to kill you. A good mesmer will actually let you run away while they stomp your team (which is now fighting shorthanded for 10s).

Or just take advantage of the skill in a 1v1 situation (which happens all the time).

You guys don't think outside the box much.

[Kelarmz]

UssjTrunks, on 11 September 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

The whole point of moa morph is to take you out of the game for 10s, not to kill you. A good mesmer will actually let you run away while they stomp your team (which is now fighting shorthanded for 10s).

That's not entirely true either, moa is very frequently used to kill the target.  Obviously, you can't mitigate, heal, break cc, etc. while you're moa'd, so you're literally a punching bag.  For example, guardians have low base hp and can't mitigate while moa'd, thieves are squishy and can't stealth, etc.  I have no idea what they were thinking with this ability.

But yeah this thread is redundant, I don't think we need 15 different threads about "thieves op" and "mesmers" and "let's all just roll thieves" and "omfg thieves and mesmers" all over the forum.

Edited by Kelarmz, 11 September 2012 - 11:54 PM.

[auxili]

These are the squishy bursty classes that have limited aoe damage and spec options. Can we stop crying about these kinds of classes in MMOs? Yeesh. This has been going on for ten years now, can people get over the hate over this archetype? You'd think veterans of the genre would understand how each archetype operates and how their weaknesses make up for their strengths, etc.

Edited by auxili, 12 September 2012 - 01:01 AM.

[Red_Falcon]

[The Dreadnought]

Red_Falcon, on 12 September 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

Rofl

[owly]

Only mesmer needs a nerf.

[dyl666]

I think all classes should be transformed into a moa indefinately when they enter PvP! That's the only way we'll ever have real balance.

Peck each other to death hell yea!

Oh and razer naga needs a nerf already!

[Lailendil]

Red_Falcon, on 12 September 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

<3

As usual: mesmer players defend mesmer, thief players defend thieves. Why so much discussion about it?

ANet knows already about it and will nerf those SoB's so bad we'll hear little girls cry for at least a month :-).
Just can't wait...

Edited by Lailendil, 13 September 2012 - 12:48 PM.

[Louis8k8]

Unicorn thieves are way more wtf than a heartseeker. Unlike heartseeker which needs 1 button, unicorn thieves needs 3 (blossom, dodge and swap) that's 3 times more skill am i right? (/half-sarcasm)

Mesmer's are no problem, until you're facing a team of 5 mesmers. Then it just gets fking impossible. (Oh my god, they're procreating!?)

Edited by Louis8k8, 13 September 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[dyl666]

Anet, please remove the thief altogether. If you just nerf HS, we'll just change to PW and own nabs some more. If you nerf that, we'll change to DB and make bads cry harder than ever. There is really no point in nerfing any of our skills, they're all OP.

Please just remove the class and let us re-roll to some other class that needs nerfing.

[Ponzio]

dyl666, on 14 September 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Anet, please remove the thief altogether. If you just nerf HS, we'll just change to PW and own nabs some more. If you nerf that, we'll change to DB and make bads cry harder than ever. There is really no point in nerfing any of our skills, they're all OP.

Please just remove the class and let us re-roll to some other class that needs nerfing.

The problem with thieves is that they dont suffer enough from going full class cannon, remove evade from alot of the attacks and its fine.

[ZNICK]

I play a ranger and don't feel either need a nerf. Moa doesn't even bother me either, I don't think I ever die because of Moa.

I recently rolled a new character because I wanted to play a class I saw stomping people, so I rolled a guardian.

If you're losing to theifs and mesmers consistently I suggest you change your build to one with more toughness. That alone will make you feel different.

Z

[Ponzio]

ZNICK, on 14 September 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

If you're losing to theifs and mesmers consistently I suggest you change your build to one with more toughness. That alone will make you feel different.

No impossible, would not create those huge numbers on the screen. The logik that you deal more damage if you spec tanky because you have more time to do it is not obvious to many.

Edited by Ponzio, 14 September 2012 - 07:03 AM.

[writethemwrong]

The Dreadnought, on 11 September 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Mesmer- Mesmers have the ability to play 4 roles in one build instead of being able to focus on only phantasms, or illusion, but they can do everything, have great survivability, do insane damage, have 3 illusions at once? It’s already hard enough to find the right one!
The “Moa Morph” Elite is far too powerful, It’s basically a 10 second stun. Sure you can move, but very slowly and you do no damage at all.
Downed state on Mesmers is more annoying than thieves, they make a copy of themselves on the ground similar to a thief teleporting around with stealth making you waste much more time trying to down them.
Their ability to play every role (Not to mention the annoyingness of a portal mesmer repairing the trebuchet), do insane amounts of damage (especially with greatsword/pistol sword), Have fantastic survivability, and spam clones of yourself to confuse your enemy’s makes this class too powerful. They can be single handedly the best 1v1 class in the game.
Make it so mesmers have to actually invest points into say phantasms, supporting, power/damage output to focus on 1 single role instead of being able to play 3+ roles in one build.

I don't see this being true at all. Mesmers can't play 3 or 4 roles in one build. If you look at their traits there are very few passives that increase our damage flat out. Compared to warriors that have a few in their strength trait. Most of our passives come from proccing something else; shatters, crits, etc; or increase our illusions' dps. If mesmers want to go damage they either spec into keeping their phantasms up and dpsing or a shatter build that's able to pump out illusions. But not both, not stellar anyways. We do have great survivability but that's mainly because some of our best abilities are in the toughness or vitality lines. That could use a rework from the devs. As for support, there isn't really a build for supporting, our phantasms can give a small regen to people around them but we don't have a support build. We can still support with staff or OH torch or focus but odds are mesmers are doing it with some kind of damage-based build.

Moa elite is op, I think we can all agree on that. Still, however, it's an elite ability. Warriors have a 20s immune to CC, and Guardians have a 3s immunity that's half the cd of moa. If one's not OP another is bound to be.

Can't remember the last time I was able to be successful from a downed state but I guess that's a concern?? The illusions I can create from downed state are beyond pathetic, not sure how they are a problem.

Edited by writethemwrong, 14 September 2012 - 07:36 AM.

[renroval]

Red_Falcon, on 12 September 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

Best post ever.

Also, best ad ever XD

[antoninusthepious]

just plain out nerfing phantasm dmg is a bit on the iffy side of balancing the mesmer imo.  Doing that will mess the class more in PvE (since phantasms get 1 shot or are able to get 1 hit off before dying/getting 1 shotted by boss or aoe dungeon mechanics - talking bout explorable mode here)

[Muppetized]

All of mesmer's damage come from their phantasms.  Do you really want Anet to make them a useless class in spvp as well further hurt their abilities in PVE?

[Runkleford]

Nerfing does not automatically make something useless. I wish people would stop using that false conclusion. It just makes any discussion pointless when we have people spewing stuff like that constantly.

[controls]

It's sad to see how many people claim mesmers are not OP. I play one myself as an alt and I would feel like an idiot if I said they weren't. Stop defending your class you know it's OP.

Edited by controls, 14 September 2012 - 10:27 PM.

[shadow9d9]

Why did you add apostrophes in the title?  Randomly adding apostrophes isn't the way English works.

[Adashio]

Ok before I get a whole bunch of crap about me defending the Mesmers. Allow me to clarify the fact that I am what u would call a professional gw2 player. I play every class and every build. So I have a good grasp on what is OP and what is not. Ok to start off I would like to say that Mesmers are not OP. they are confusing and if the build is made properly and used with enuff skill can have great survivability. BUT THEY ARE NOT OP BECAUSE OF THIS. I will usually win every fight with my mesmer. even if I do not use my moa morph. But the only reason I win is simply because my opponents are confused by the fact that they cannot find the real me in my swarm of eye sore phantasms and more importantly clones. But in truth not being able to identify the real mesmer is simply a matter of non skilled opponents and or "noobs". "JUST BECAUSE U CANNOT IDENTIFY THE REAL MESMER DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE CLASS IS OP. BUT INSTEAD THAT U DO NOT HAVE THE SKILL, EXP, AND OR INTELLIGENCE NEEDED TO IDENTIFY A REAL MESMER FROM HIS OR HER CLONES. Really the whole point of the mesmer is to confuse you. Not to fight you in open combat like every other class. In truth I have played the mesmer, and in the meny fights I have been in I have noticed that my opponent will almost always attack my clones. simply because they cannot tell which one is really me as we'll as the fact that they are not used to CONSTANTLY clicking the opponent they want to attack. Because of this I take minimal damage and all the time he is attacking my clones my opponent is taking damage. However this was a battle with someone that was a noob and or does not have enuff exp with mesmers. when I fight a good player. Or rather someone that can actually find me in my crowd of clones the battle continues like in a normal fight between 2 classes as it always was.  this is because the opponent has enuff skill to not be confused by my clones, and as such makes my clones only useful for shatter or stalling. Now for all those noobs and or people that cannot beat a mesmer, and have come to the conclusion that Mesmers are OP. think back on all those battles with Mesmers. Do you remember attacking a clone. Wasting elite, utility skills. Maybe u wasted a lot of resorces against the clones. Then the mesmer shatterd his illusions  revealing himself but u lost the fight because u had nothing left to fight or defend with And in truth that is 1 of 2 reasons u lost. the first is that you wasted your abilities. The second is that u cannot find the real mesmer whos difficulty to find is determined by the skill of the mesmer (it takes skill to use the mesmer abilities to their fullest potential). and even if you do you have difficulty clicking him or her so you can target and attack him. the reason you cannot click on him is becasue you have never had to do it constantly before.You have only had to click on your target ocasionally against theives and necromancers but with mesmers you have to do it constantly. this does not make mesmers OP but rather that you will have to take on mesmers differently then other classes. which is how the game was meant to be. all of you out there that cannot beat a mesmer because u are confused by their clones and also have difficulty in clicking the target you think is the real mesmer. then allow me to give u some advice. To start off I will explain the Mesmers clones and phantasms. The phantasm are simply week pets that will burst damage and do a ability ever so meny seconds( around 7) and are easily to distinguish from the mesmer. The clones are just like the mesmer only they are pathetically week and are just there to confuse u. And seeing as u are here complaining about the mesmers clones that much should be obvious. However what most of you do not know is that clones cannot gain boons. And as such if you see a clone/mesmer with boons. Chances are that is the mesmer. In order to succesfully fight a mesmer you should save all of your big abilities(stuns,knockbacks,and big damage), and wait until you are sure that the clone/mesmer in front of you is the real mesmer due to the fact that it has a boon or evaded and or gave itself away in some manner that seems human. In which case you go all out on the real mesmer. And seeing as Mesmers are averagely just lower than decent health they will go down just like every other class. the only way to get used to clicking on the target you want to atk constantly is simply a matter of practice. In truth the only reason that u belive they are OP is because you find it hard to click on the mesmer you think is the real one. But this is only due to the fact that you never had to do this very often with any other class. I and meny others have adapted this tactic and we fight mesmers all the time. and with this it becomes a even fight. Which it always was. we win some we lose some due to other gaming factors not becasue our opponent is a mesmer. the idea that becasue of the clones and constant changing of the target is not OP. theifs disappear constantly resulting in the fact that u cannot target them. the mesmer uses clones so it results in this as a way to confuse the player.

Although it looks complex. which it is not. I have killed meny Mesmers with my thief,gaurdian,warrior,and necromancer. And do not give me any cramp about the Mesmers I killed were noobs.(do not insult those i have fought against simply to support your claim Although I have come across some noobs most of the Mesmers were good to great players, and i lost some of the fights in 1v1 situations even after using moa morph. Most people lose to Mesmers because they are intimidated by the Mesmers ability to look like 4 opponents and hence reduce their confidence as well as confuse the opponent. Which is what the mesmer is meant to do. in my professional opinion with the accreditation of playing every class in the game with at least a decent amount of skill I can say that the mesmer is most definitely not OP. confusing but not OP. though I have to admit that the moa morph is a OP elite skill. Though with the 3 minute cool down that will usually only give 3-4 uses in a game.it has a casting time of 2 secounds so i see your complaint. the casting time has at least be brought up to 4 secounds. So people can easily dodge or interrupt the spell. though do not think that moa morph will be changed very soon. Also yes you are a noob if you waste skills on clones because you thought that the clone was the real mesmer. Its nothing personal its just basic knowledge. after some time to accumulate some expierience in fighting any of the classes. i have come to the conclusion that the best way to end a fight between 2 equally skilled players is to interupt your opponents attampt to use their heal skill resulting in a huge advantage of health difference. in truth a noob in terms of fighting a mesmer is simply anyone that cannot distinguish the clone from the mesmer as well as anyone that has difficulty selecting the target they want to attack. a noob that is fighting a mesmer will almost always lose becasue he is new to finding the real mesmer as well as having to click on the mesmer they wish to atk. but this is not OP it is simply a matter of skill. i had a friend just today that could hold his own against me. he was a gaurdian. our fight lasted very long and it only ended when i interupted his heal giving me the end up and allowing me to end the fight. i did not win becasue i was a mesmer but rather that i had more skill in interrupting heals then he did. which is a skill that every player that wants to be good and wants to win should have. Most people are not used to clicking their target constantly as well as Most people will not change their attack every red name attitude when fighting a mesmer and for that reason they will always be confused. And just because you are confused does not make the mesmer OP.

Edited by Adashio, 04 November 2012 - 01:56 PM.

[Typhoris]

After the thief patch it's going to be Mesmers - The Game