142 replies to this topic

[deitiesforce]

they need to buff other classes instead of nerfing classes that are working as intended.

Edited by deitiesforce, 08 November 2012 - 05:25 PM.

[TGIFrisbie]

deitiesforce, on 08 November 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

they need a buff to other classes isntead of nerfing classes that are working as intended.

This can not be said enough.

Unfortunately it's easier for Anet to nerf professions people complain about (that are perfectly fine) than to fix/improve a handful of classes that are under par.  Like most game making companies eventually they fall victim to follow the whining instead of the real issues.

Who whines the most about pvp?  Face rolling, one trick pony glass cannons.

Edited by TGIFrisbie, 08 November 2012 - 04:54 PM.

[Trife]

Red_Falcon, on 12 September 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

The QQ is strong in this one.

[Norn Osprey]

TGIFrisbie, on 08 November 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

Unfortunately it's easier for Anet to nerf professions ...  than to fix/improve a handful of classes that are under par.

Let's say two professions are outperforming.  Let's say we increase the damage output of the other classes to match. Now every profession is matched and the game is balanced right ?

Wrong.  Now, they would need to rebalance ever single NPC in the game. Including story line, dungeons (both story mode and explorere mode), along with those pesky open world NPCs. This also includes NPCs that are part of Dynamic Events. Don't forget W v W. All those NPCs, siege engines and gates would need their HP pool buffed to keep the risk at the same difficulty.

In conclusion: Which is easier -- (A.) adjusting two professions which might be out performing or (B.) rebalancing the entire rest of the game and hoping you get it right before everyone leaves ?


Lastly, you make it sound as if its one or the other. These options are not mutually exclusive. Outperforming professions need to be brought into line along while any under performing professions need to be boosted.

Edited by Norn Osprey, 08 November 2012 - 05:14 PM.

[deitiesforce]

Norn Osprey, on 08 November 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Let's say two professions are outperforming.  Let's say we increase the damage output of the other classes to match. Now every profession is matched and the game is balanced right ?

Wrong.  Now, they would need to rebalance ever single NPC in the game. Including story line, dungeons (both story mode and explorere mode), along with those pesky open world NPCs. This also includes NPCs that are part of Dynamic Events. Don't forget W v W. All those NPCs, siege engines and gates would need their HP pool buffed to keep the risk at the same difficulty.

In conclusion: Which is easier -- (A.) adjusting two professions which might be out performing or (B.) rebalancing the entire rest of the game and hoping you get it right before everyone leaves ?


Lastly, you make it sound as if its one or the other. These options are not mutually exclusive. Outperforming professions need to be brought into line along while any under performing professions need to be boosted.

That depends on where you draw the line. I think Mesmers and thieves are not overpowered at all but some other classes really under performed. But again I think splitting pvp skills and PVE skills are super important. Mesmers are already weak enough in PVE.

[RandolfRa]

AetherMcLoud, on 05 November 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

4. Portal is the most OP skill in the game for tournaments. 2 equally skilled teams on Khylo. The team with the mesmer wins because of instant treb repairs. And the team that uses the treb best wins Khylo.

Well, I quess people just have to have a portal mesmer in their tpvp party.  In gw1 a healer was a must have, here a mesmer is. It's part of the game. You can't complain about the goal keeper being op in soccer because he is allowed to use hands. I mean he is, but hey it's part of the game! D:

Edited by RandolfRa, 09 November 2012 - 12:52 AM.

[TGIFrisbie]

I will also state a lot of face rolling players do not even attempt to figure out how to play against another profession.  They complain any time they fail to capitalize on their own profession's abilities.

Lets just keep nerfing the same class over and over.  Why have previous nerfs not solved the obvious overpoweredness of the nerfed professions?  Is it because the generally accepted perceptions are correct?  I say perhaps they are wrong.

You decide.

[Adashio]

TGIFrisbie, on 08 November 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

I will also state a lot of face rolling players do not even attempt to figure out how to play against another profession.  They complain any time they fail to capitalize on their own profession's abilities.

Lets just keep nerfing the same class over and over.  Why have previous nerfs not solved the obvious overpoweredness of the nerfed professions?  Is it because the generally accepted perceptions are correct?  I say perhaps they are wrong.

You decide.

In all of the time I have played a Mesmer. 90 percent of the time when I beat someone without the use of moa morph.  they say I am OP. but of those people I beat that say i am OP.  most to all of them have never used a mesmer. As well as the fact they won't take the time to edit their tactic when fighting me. Warrior: oh look a mesmer. BULL CHARGE! 100 blades. Crap it was a clone. OH LOOK ANOTHER MESMER this one must be real. WHirlwind attack. Crap It was another clone. The warrior dies.
Also in my opinion you should not only look at what happens when something lands(moa morph). A lot of stuff hurts when it lands. Instead you should compare it to the cool down as well as how easy it is to dodge/interupt. Also moa morph is not a instant win when used at the biggining of the fight. and the idea that moa morph is op when it is used when your opponent has low health is stupid. really is it op when i use a stun on someone with 10 percent health? No but it is smart. Is smart OP according to you.  it is not imposible to dodge you know. so skilled players will know to dodge it when it comes. and people that play mesmer will know when it comes.
When I fight someon with equal skill to me (which is a very high skill), and I use moa morph. They will 90 percent of the time dodge it. Also the idea that moa morph is op because the mesmer counts how meny times you dodge so he has a high chance of landing it on you is idiotic. Simply because that is how you play the game. You play it smart to win. also The player should have saved 1 of his dodge for what a experienced player would see coming when fighting a mesmer.

Edited by Adashio, 09 November 2012 - 08:39 PM.

[mydixienormus]

Quote

Mesmers and Thieves too powerful?

Yes, they are.

Why are they?  They do too much damage that is too easy to land.  It is almost unavoidable damage, best you can do is guess that it is coming and hope to randomly dodge out of it...too bad that it is easily repeatable too.

Doesnt matter if you know where they are and what they are going to do.  You only get 2 dodge rolls.  Unless you yourself are a thief/mesmer, you're not going to have much of a chance.


They are also "allowed" to be "slippery" with no penalty.  2 classes with extremely high over-the-top burst which is hard to avoid, can get away at any point if in trouble; gg dev logic.


Thief utilities arent that bad, but repeated stealth is super annoying.  Elites are fing stupidly overpowered.  Dagger storm (vs ranged) or thieves guild might as well just be a button you push to instantly kill your target.


Mesmer utilities are brokenly op.  Mesmer elites are brokenly op.




I've played mesmer.  I've played thief.  I've played other classes.  

I dont know why mesmer/thief was severely over-buffed right before retail to this degree and more or less left alone.

Maybe it was like this? :
   "not many people are playing thief or mesmer, let's buff them and make them super overpowered so people will play them eventhough we nerfed the shit out of ele/necro/ranger/guardian already."

[TGIFrisbie]

Adashio, on 09 November 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Snipping good points -

Mesmer is the nemesis of Face Rollers, always has been.  In GW1 I used to pwn facerollers ALL DAY LONG in 4v4 randoms.  The number of warriors who would chase my "little girl" down to WTFpwn her with their spankings, only to die a pitiful swift death once lured away from their group that might have given me a hard time, was countless.

Now back to the countless QQing here from other posters.  You really seriously need to learn to play and stop wasting time crying and posting on forums with your QQ.  It really is over the top, if you spent as much energy figuring out how to play as you do crying you *MIGHT* defeat the classes you consider OP.  So many tears, so little time.

Edited by TGIFrisbie, 09 November 2012 - 10:07 PM.

[redslion]

It's what I always said: they should increase the damage from my jumpshot by thirty times in pvp. What's all the fuss about? It can be dodged!XD

You know, it doesn't seem to me you need to play an engineer to be able to defeat one. So Mesmer is unbalanced compared to engineer. And I'm starting to think clones are the least problem: mesmers have still big damage and mighty escape capabilities. And stealth.

A big part of the problem is that the mesmer mob in the mists sucks too. It does 1/10th of what a mesmer can do, while the thief is almost as annoying as the real ones (with that juici invulnerability field.XD) so I have an easier time against a thief than against a mesmer.

Best thing I can say is that it takes them 40 seconds or even more to take me down.XD And it's only because they heal while I'm focused on avoiding all the damage coming from somewhere (phantoms? probably). If Anet gives me the chance to apply poison through weapon swap sigil the fuss will be over: no heal for you, honey, time to die.XD

And what about downed skills? THEY are overpowered.  No bitching about that. No other class except thieves has so many escapes. And mesmers retain ghosts, too!

I will try to play one, ok, but I'd love other people could always die against engineer if they never played one.XD

[Ojikes]

mydixienormus, on 09 November 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Thief utilities arent that bad, but repeated stealth is super annoying.  Elites are fing stupidly overpowered.  Dagger storm (vs ranged) or thieves guild might as well just be a button you push to instantly kill your target.

Yup, its really hard to just run away for 30 sec when he uses Thieves guild and then come back and kill him. And stop shooting on the thief with range if he uses Dagger Storm.

The elites are good, not OP.

[MrForz]

Ojikes, on 10 November 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

Yup, its really hard to just run away for 30 sec when he uses Thieves guild and then come back and kill him. And stop shooting on the thief with range if he uses Dagger Storm.

Running away for 30s? You might aswell just drop the fight and go look elsewhere.

[Caffynated]

redslion, on 10 November 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

And what about downed skills? THEY are overpowered.  No bitching about that. No other class except thieves has so many escapes. And mesmers retain ghosts, too!

Thief downed skills are quite strong. In a glass build, I've been taken from full to 1/3 life in the time it takes to get a stomp off. Their ability to chain stealth and teleport makes them the hardest class to kill in the middle of a fight.

Mesmer downed state is kind of crap to be honest. Good thing they have to be fairly terrible to end up in it in the first place.

Ojikes, on 10 November 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

Yup, its really hard to just run away for 30 sec when he uses Thieves guild and then come back and kill him. And stop shooting on the thief with range if he uses Dagger Storm.

The elites are good, not OP.

Right, I'll just leave a point for 30 seconds. I'm sure they'll wait for me to come back before they try to cap it.

[redslion]

If only my Supply Crate could force people to run away for 30 seconds...XD

I think the idea with fighting against thieves is that you win against one when he cannot stop you from doing what you wanted to do, or when you can stop him doing what he wanted to do.

Whether you manage to take him down or not, depends on the fight and on the luck, but I think that a thief that wants to escape WILL escape and reset his heals before you can.

Thank God I am a bunker, and I draw all thieves on me, because I still pose a threat to them: I have enough burst to kill them, if I need. I may die, but my team mates won't.

Edited by redslion, 10 November 2012 - 08:58 PM.

[Sonzai_Moto]

Hopped on my mesmer a bit for some sPvP to see what people were complaining about. I won most, not all, but most of the battles I was in because the other players didn't know what to do. Not just against a mesmer, but how to play their own class. Most were button mashing, expecting a win. Some did great damage, but never followed up on it. I was allowed to heal so many times. Plus, I could just see the c-spacing against my clones...even when I didn't go invisibile... One warrior blocked my Moa once, and that was the most impressive thing I saw from other players. Meanwhile the npc soldiers on the guild lord map were crippling me, interrupting me, and tearing through my illusions. I thought, if human players were doing this, I'd be toast.

I haven't played the tournaments, but I can see how portals and time warp would affect play. But on sPvP, mesmers are fine. Button mashing, just won't be effective against them. Then again, mesmers can't button mash themselves and expect to survive either.

[AetherMcLoud]

Sonzai_Moto, on 11 November 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Hopped on my mesmer a bit for some sPvP to see what people were complaining about. I won most, not all, but most of the battles I was in because the other players didn't know what to do. Not just against a mesmer, but how to play their own class. Most were button mashing, expecting a win. Some did great damage, but never followed up on it. I was allowed to heal so many times. Plus, I could just see the c-spacing against my clones...even when I didn't go invisibile... One warrior blocked my Moa once, and that was the most impressive thing I saw from other players. Meanwhile the npc soldiers on the guild lord map were crippling me, interrupting me, and tearing through my illusions. I thought, if human players were doing this, I'd be toast.

I haven't played the tournaments, but I can see how portals and time warp would affect play. But on sPvP, mesmers are fine. Button mashing, just won't be effective against them. Then again, mesmers can't button mash themselves and expect to survive either.

Brilliant strawman argumentation. /golfclap

[Sonzai_Moto]

TGIFrisbie, on 09 November 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

Mesmer is the nemesis of Face Rollers, always has been.  In GW1 I used to pwn facerollers ALL DAY LONG in 4v4 randoms.  The number of warriors who would chase my "little girl" down to WTFpwn her with their spankings, only to die a pitiful swift death once lured away from their group that might have given me a hard time, was countless.

Glad to hear that in some respects the GW1 mesmer still exists.

Ugh, there are so many professions I could QQ against in this game. But I realize that that is what they do. A ranger owned me with conditions recently. And there was an ele I just couldn't take down. I remember when fighting a bunker guardian, I had to play very carefully because he could tank and his burns would destroy me. Not sure if I was ever able to take him down alone or without using Moa at the right time.

Edited by Sonzai_Moto, 11 November 2012 - 10:17 PM.

[Endlessly]

Trife, on 08 November 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

The QQ is strong in this one.

That's actually just funny. I guess you have to be a non-thief to appreciate the humor, though.

Mesmer, here. Yes, we're overpowered. Especially in 1v1s. In team fights we're not that much better than anyone else, though. But I don't feel we're overpowered due to one ability (if you can consider one it would probably be our downed state) but rather just our abilities in general and how they affect our opponents. I do agree our Moa could be nerfed somewhat, though. Nerfing any of our other offensive abilities would just serve to make us easier to deal with in 1v1s in PvP and make us mediocre in PvE.

[Coldman]

I'm sick of this Mesmer hate, let's talk about Thiefs. Me and 4 players were trying to kill this Thief in WvW a couple of hours ago, and we couldn't. Because every time he was getting close to death he used stealth. I used AoE attacks to where he was stealthed, spammed my #1 skill. But it didn't work. We just couldn't kill him. How is this not OP? 5 players should be able to kill 1 player.

Edited by Coldman, 15 November 2012 - 05:18 AM.

[Shatteredz]

Coldman, on 15 November 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

I'm sick of this Mesmer hate, let's talk about Thiefs. Me and 4 players were trying to kill this Thief in WvW a couple of hours ago, and we couldn't. Because every time he was getting close to death he used stealth. I used AoE attacks to where he was stealthed, spammed my #1 skill. But it didn't work. We just couldn't kill him. How is this not OP? 5 players should be able to kill 1 player.

Was that in the desolation borderlands jumping puzzle?
If so, that would be me ^^.

[Rrafaz]

The only thing that makes Mesmers OP is that they have way too many "get out of jail free" cards.

The only thing that makes a Thief OP is their burst.

[Naglifar]

sigh...

the problem right now is this: as a new growing community, most Casual/New/Learning Guild Wars 2 players have not actually developed a [metabuild] play-style due to--

1. Lack of exposure to builds
2. Unfamiliarity with Guild Wars' tempo/speed

Every week someone on some form posts some INSANE PVP/PVE BUILD...but usually they are what most Guild Wars
players would consider a 'Good' build. Are they effective...yes! But the degree which they fall short of a Meta Build is
Most felt when they are defeated by a more skilled foe using a toolkit that defeats 80% of 'Good Builds' by default.

Most of the best players ive seen in WvW or SPvP use incredibly unique combinations of weapons/utilities/runes.
I would consider these Meta builds, and more often than not...its not something your gonna be able to actually find
in forums unless you also spend some time Reading Skills/Runes/Traits, watching replays, and testing stats on gear.

There do exist a large population of 'Good' Players of all classes in Guild Wars 2. As a group of 3+, these players might
be able to defeat a player using a Meta build...but 1v1, 1v2...a meta build is optimized to sustain pressure (both offensively
and defensively)

----- Returning to the status of Thief and Mesmer potential...It is obvious why these two classes (More than others) stand-out
in a survey of overly-represented 'effective' classes.

A Thief is a class with spacial upper-handedness, meaning a 'Good' Thief
could easily trump a 'Good' Other...if said Other is really bad at spacial awareness (conversely, any thief who practices good-mobility
is training to be a good thief, regardless of build efficiency). In other-words, many players coming to guildwars might underestimate the
importance of pacing and spacial attention in the games mechanics, a thief might eventually teach them otherwise.

The Mesmer is very much the same monster it was from the original guild wars. Its a role that rewards the player for every minor choice in the game's otherwise vast ocean of mechanics. Likewise, playing a Mesmer REQUIRES a constant re-framing of current situations to even MAKE it in PvP and PvE. Ergo, a decent Mesmer might defeat a 'Good-Build' Player, only because the Mesmer kept up with a steady-stream of correct choices that inevitably ends in victory. Conversely, a decent Mesmer may make one slightly inappropriate choice (shatter) that defaults to its demise.

Thief's reduce the number of choices a foes can make, Mesmer cause foes to waste a number of resources in a window of time.

A thief's primary weakness is poor luck. it's Meta weakness is Confusion, Long-duration AoEs, increasing # of targets.

A Mesmer's primary weakness is making a mistake. It's Meta weakness is reduced illusion generation.