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Mesmer's and thief's, too powerful?

thief mesmer powerful overpowered elite

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#31 Dirame

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:00 AM

View PostLouis8k8, on 13 September 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Unicorn thieves are way more wtf than a heartseeker. Unlike heartseeker which needs 1 button, unicorn thieves needs 3 (blossom, dodge and swap) that's 3 times more skill am i right? (/half-sarcasm)

Mesmer's are no problem, until you're facing a team of 5 mesmers. Then it just gets fking impossible. (Oh my god, they're procreating!?)

My necro spec can deal with those HS spams and Unicorns but mesmers... I seriously have to pre-empt everything they do in order to beat them. The moment I stall for too long, I might as well be dead.

#32 Symbiont

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:37 AM

to the players who complain about the thief and mesmer, what do you play and what build and amulet?
do you even got a counter planned in your build?

could it be you're just wearing cardboard armor and have no clue how to stop them? :P

edit: imo, it should be obligatory for complainers about another profession to share their build and playstyle.

Edited by Symbiont, 04 November 2012 - 11:40 AM.


#33 Kutsus

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:01 PM

View PostSymbiont, on 04 November 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

to the players who complain about the thief and mesmer, what do you play and what build and amulet?
do you even got a counter planned in your build?

could it be you're just wearing cardboard armor and have no clue how to stop them? :P

edit: imo, it should be obligatory for complainers about another profession to share their build and playstyle.

It's taken me years and a lot of pain to get my head around it, but many people (both in RL situations and video games) do *not* want to put in the effort required to solve their problems. They just want to complain and hope baby jesus fixes them. The problem with this mindset in GW2 is that if you don't learn other classes and what it takes to play against them in and out, you won't win much against players that do. Almost every class (Thieves, Mesmers, Warriors especially) has abilities that scream "if you don't avoid me, you are probably going to lose this fight" and if you can't spot them and avoid them and don't want to learn, it's going to be frustrating.

Edited by Kutsus, 04 November 2012 - 12:03 PM.


#34 Chorazin

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:04 PM

People really have a hard time finding the downed mesmer ... really? The giant red arrow bobbing up and down above the true mesmer doesnt give it away? And who still tries to stake, i thought everyone had just shifted over to unloading dps on downed mesmers/thieves?

Moa morph is probably what i would look at, 10 seconds of moa is pretty harsh the problem is you have no option but to run.

As for thieves this

Quote

The problem with thieves is that they dont suffer enough from going full class cannon, remove evade from alot of the attacks and its fine.

Too many outs in massive spike specs, i dont mind you want to go full glass cannon and burn someone down in a couple of seconds if everything in ur combo comes off. But the trade off should be survivability, far too many ways to reset the fight/escape currently.

#35 Sinnacle

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:16 PM

View PostKutsus, on 04 November 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

It's taken me years and a lot of pain to get my head around it, but many people (both in RL situations and video games) do *not* want to put in the effort required to solve their problems. They just want to complain and hope baby jesus fixes them. The problem with this mindset in GW2 is that if you don't learn other classes and what it takes to play against them in and out, you won't win much against players that do. Almost every class (Thieves, Mesmers, Warriors especially) has abilities that scream "if you don't avoid me, you are probably going to lose this fight" and if you can't spot them and avoid them and don't want to learn, it's going to be frustrating.

Agreed.

I think you just have some classes that are better at 1v1 and others that are better than others.  If you have any kind of aoe just drop it down and watch the numbers over the head if your doing 20k to something its not the real mesmer.  Situations where I am going to attack someone I set up with my clones out first to throw them off(which is what they are designed for since they do like 1 damage)  if the person is good they lay a aoe wiping the clones out then the fight is totally different now.  

I had to ask theives and read about their abilites to understand what i was facing now I manage most of the time.  The information is out there all over these forums.  Go to mesmer forums ask how to beat them or whatever and someone will tell you.  There is a thread in the forums anyway.  Same in thief heck in the mesmer forums there is a thread on how to beat thief.  (search function)

#36 Adashio

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 01:57 PM

Ok before I get a whole bunch of crap about me defending the Mesmers. Allow me to clarify the fact that I am what u would call a professional gw2 player. I play every class and every build. So I have a good grasp on what is OP and what is not. Ok to start off I would like to say that Mesmers are not OP. they are confusing and if the build is made properly and used with enough skill can have great survivability. BUT THEY ARE NOT OP BECAUSE OF THIS. I will usually win every fight with my mesmer. even if I do not use my moa morph. But the only reason I win is simply because my opponents are confused by the fact that they cannot find the real me in my swarm of eye sore phantasms and more importantly clones. But in truth not being able to identify the real mesmer is simply a matter of non skilled opponents and or "noobs". "JUST BECAUSE U CANNOT IDENTIFY THE REAL MESMER DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE CLASS IS OP. BUT INSTEAD THAT U DO NOT HAVE THE SKILL, EXP, AND OR INTELLIGENCE NEEDED TO IDENTIFY A REAL MESMER FROM HIS OR HER CLONES. Really the whole point of the mesmer is to confuse you. Not to fight you in open combat like every other class. In truth I have played the mesmer, and in the many fights I have been in I have noticed that my opponent will almost always attack my clones. simply because they cannot tell which one is really me as well as the fact that they are not used to CONSTANTLY clicking the opponent they want to attack. Because of this I take minimal damage and all the time he is attacking my clones my opponent is taking damage. However this was a battle with someone that was a noob and or does not have enough exp with mesmers. when I fight a good player. Or rather someone that can actually find me in my crowd of clones the battle continues like in a normal fight between 2 classes as it always was.  this is because the opponent has enough skill to not be confused by my clones, and as such makes my clones only useful for shatter or stalling. Now for all those noobs and or people that cannot beat a mesmer, and have come to the conclusion that Mesmers are OP. think back on all those battles with Mesmers. Do you remember attacking a clone. Wasting elite, utility skills. Maybe u wasted a lot of resorces against the clones. Then the mesmer shatterd his illusions  revealing himself but u lost the fight because u had nothing left to fight or defend with And in truth that is 1 of 2 reasons u lost. the first is that you wasted your abilities. The second is that u cannot find the real mesmer who's difficulty to find is determined by the skill of the mesmer (it takes skill to use the mesmer abilities to their fullest potential). and even if you do you have difficulty clicking him or her so you can target and attack him. the reason you cannot click on him is becasue you have never had to do it constantly before.You have only had to click on your target ocasionally against theives and necromancers but with mesmers you have to do it constantly. this does not make mesmers OP but rather that you will have to take on mesmers differently then other classes. which is how the game was meant to be. all of you out there that cannot beat a mesmer because u are confused by their clones and also have difficulty in clicking the target you think is the real mesmer. then allow me to give u some advice. To start off I will explain the Mesmers clones and phantasms. The phantasm are simply week pets that will burst damage and do a ability ever so many seconds( around 7) and are easily to distinguish from the mesmer. The clones are just like the mesmer only they are pathetically week and are just there to confuse u. And seeing as u are here complaining about the mesmers clones that much should be obvious. However what most of you do not know is that clones cannot gain boons. And as such if you see a clone/mesmer with boons. Chances are that is the mesmer. In order to succesfully fight a mesmer you should save all of your big abilities(stuns,knockbacks,and big damage), and wait until you are sure that the clone/mesmer in front of you is the real mesmer due to the fact that it has a boon or evaded and or gave itself away in some manner that seems human. In which case you go all out on the real mesmer. And seeing as Mesmers are averagely just lower than decent health they will go down just like every other class. the only way to get used to clicking on the target you want to atk constantly is simply a matter of practice. In truth the only reason that u belive they are OP is because you find it hard to click on the mesmer you think is the real one. But this is only due to the fact that you never had to do this very often with any other class. I and meny others have adapted this tactic and we fight mesmers all the time. and with this it becomes a even fight. Which it always was. we win some we lose some due to other gaming factors not becasue our opponent is a mesmer. the idea that becasue of the clones and constant changing of the target is not OP. theifs disappear constantly resulting in the fact that u cannot target them. the mesmer uses clones so it results in this as a way to confuse the player.

Although it looks complex. which it is not. I have killed meny Mesmers with my thief,gaurdian,warrior,and necromancer. And do not give me any cramp about the Mesmers I killed were noobs.(do not insult those i have fought against simply to support your claim Although I have come across some noobs most of the Mesmers were good to great players, and i lost some of the fights in 1v1 situations even after using moa morph. Most people lose to Mesmers because they are intimidated by the Mesmers ability to look like 4 opponents and hence reduce their confidence as well as confuse the opponent. Which is what the mesmer is meant to do. in my professional opinion with the accreditation of playing every class in the game with at least a decent amount of skill I can say that the mesmer is most definitely not OP. confusing but not OP. though I have to admit that the moa morph is a OP elite skill. Though with the 3 minute cool down that will usually only give 3-4 uses in a game.it has a casting time of 2 secounds so i see your complaint. the casting time has at least be brought up to 4 secounds. So people can easily dodge or interrupt the spell. though do not think that moa morph will be changed very soon. Also yes you are a noob if you waste skills on clones because you thought that the clone was the real mesmer. Its nothing personal its just basic knowledge. after some time to accumulate some experience in fighting any of the classes. i have come to the conclusion that the best way to end a fight between 2 equally skilled players is to interupt your opponents attampt to use their heal skill resulting in a huge advantage of health difference. in truth a noob in terms of fighting a mesmer is simply anyone that cannot distinguish the clone from the mesmer as well as anyone that has difficulty selecting the target they want to attack. a noob that is fighting a mesmer will almost always lose becasue he is new to finding the real mesmer as well as having to click on the mesmer they wish to atk. but this is not OP it is simply a matter of skill. i had a friend just today that could hold his own against me. he was a gaurdian. our fight lasted very long and it only ended when i interupted his heal giving me the end up and allowing me to end the fight. i did not win becasue i was a mesmer but rather that i had more skill in interrupting heals then he did. which is a skill that every player that wants to be good and wants to win should have. Most people are not used to clicking their target constantly as well as Most people will not change their attack every red name attitude when fighting a mesmer and for that reason they will always be confused. And just because you are confused does not make the mesmer OVER POWERED

Edited by Adashio, 04 November 2012 - 02:12 PM.


#37 Outt

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:08 PM

View PostAdashio, on 04 November 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

OMG please seperate your thoughts

Everyone you fight on your mesmer is a noob, but every mesmer you fight is a great player?  Seems legit to me...


OP: Both classes are very good at killing unexperienced in sPvP, and since the majority of the playerbase is this, it just gets pointed out over and over and over.

#38 Adashio

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:23 PM

View PostOutt, on 04 November 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

Everyone you fight on your mesmer is a noob, but every mesmer you fight is a great player?  Seems legit to me...


OP: Both classes are very good at killing unexperienced in sPvP, and since the majority of the playerbase is this, it just gets pointed out over and over and over.

i see that u did not read my full post. was it to big for you

View PostOutt, on 04 November 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

Everyone you fight on your mesmer is a noob, but every mesmer you fight is a great player?  Seems legit to me...


OP: Both classes are very good at killing unexperienced in sPvP, and since the majority of the playerbase is this, it just gets pointed out over and over and over.

i do not see how you can come to the conclusion that as you say it "Everyone you fight on your mesmer is a noob, but every mesmer you fight is a great player" really ???. i am not saying that. instead i am saying that everyone that belives mesmers are OP because they lose to them regularly simply because they do not have the tactic needed to attack mesmers. which brings me to the term "noob" (newbie= new) meaning new to something in this case the correct tactic to fight mesmers.

Edited by Adashio, 04 November 2012 - 02:27 PM.


#39 Outt

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:44 PM

View PostAdashio, on 04 November 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

i see that u did not read my full post. was it to big for you



i do not see how you can come to the conclusion that as you say it "Everyone you fight on your mesmer is a noob, but every mesmer you fight is a great player" really ???. i am not saying that. instead i am saying that everyone that belives mesmers are OP because they lose to them regularly simply because they do not have the tactic needed to attack mesmers. which brings me to the term "noob" (newbie= new) meaning new to something in this case the correct tactic to fight mesmers.

I did in fact read it, which is how I was able to say that, because they are in 2 completely seperate parts of your text wall, which was very difficult to read because your thoughts weren't seperated well.

I understand you're saying mesmers are good against new players, and I can agree there, Thief and Mesmer both stand out more than other classes just because of how their mechanics work as being "noob killers", I was only pointing out that you stated every mesmer you played against was a great player while on your other professions, and yet every player you've killed while on your mesmer is a noob, is quite a blanket statement that really doesn't fit.

#40 Kutsus

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:21 PM

View PostAdashio, on 04 November 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

i see that u did not read my full post. was it to big for you

I sure as hell didn't. If you can't make your point concisely, you should expect that the majority of people are going to skip it. If you still feel the need to wall of text it, at least format it properly so it's easy to read.

#41 Adashio

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 05:28 PM

View PostKutsus, on 04 November 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:



I sure as hell didn't. If you can't make your point concisely, you should expect that the majority of people are going to skip it. If you still feel the need to wall of text it, at least format it properly so it's easy to read.

I really just put all my thoughts in to one big wall of text because I do not have the time to take everyone's questions and bring out my thoughts bit by bit.

Anyway to just bring out the basics of my thoughts allow me to put it this way. I have played all the classes and most of the most common builds. And what I found is Mesmers are not OP . It's simply that people have trouble with the clones and get confused as to where the real mesmer is. This results in skills being wasted , and just basically making things harder than they need to be when fighting Mesmers. If you think that the mesmer clones are Op because you get confused as to which one the real mesmer is. Only proves that anet did a great job at making a good mesmer who's whole play style is to CONFUSE YOU. Really what about the mesmer do you think is OP, and what should be changed. The only thing I can think about is the moa morph which I totally get. But other than that the class is solid and not OP. you gyz that think differently should stop fighting Mesmers until you learn how to actually play against them. Because I have seen too meny people waste their skills on my clones. Then after I kill them I get the little private massage "mesmers are OP". Honestly that is just idiotic.

#42 Adashio

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 05:33 PM

As for thiefs I really don't know. I have played the theif but I never got the hang of it. My death rate with it is miserable. But when I am fighting one. I do not think they are OP. but I have to admit that the spamming of 1 button is a real problem.

#43 Impmon

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 05:46 PM

As a mesmer I can reflect enemies projectiles, moa morph them, confuse which causes damage upon skill use, teleport, clone myself & use 1 of 4 insta's to either do aoe explosion damage, confuse more, distort, or daze, or spawn a warder or berserker which also do AOE damage & pull them off walls or ledges, blind etc.

I use primarily greatsword &  scepter/focus.  Confusion damage is quite simply awesome.  Everytime they try to use a skill they hit themselves with anywhere from 500-1000 damage.  

I can spawn a berserker, switch & add a warder.  Detonate them for some confusion aoe, and then dodge (spawns a clone) and then use clone skill, add 2 more then detonate them for aoe damage.  All while running around far away from the enemy who is most likely trying to attack the clones and not me.  

Should they get close, temporal field can knock them all back, or the GS sword wave,  teleport, decoy, invis field, or mass invis... rarely do I die unless totally zerged.  Even then you can easily escape zergs using the above abilities.  

Mesmers are strong,  if you however take out the phantasms fast and focus on the mesmer they're actually pretty squishy.  You need alot of burst damage and get in close.

#44 Adashio

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:41 PM

View PostOutt, on 04 November 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:



I was only pointing out that you stated every mesmer you played against was a great player while on your other professions, and yet every player you've killed while on your mesmer is a noob, is quite a blanket statement that really doesn't fit.

I was not referring to a new player when I said the word "noob". Or at least in some cases. I was instead referring to players of any level of experience that's were new to the basic and obvious tactic in fighting Mesmers. Which if you do not know is finding the real Mesmer in the group of clones they usually hide in. I even gave a way to identify a Mesmer from a clone. Which is to notice that the clone/Mesmer has a boon. And because clones cannot gain boons. It is obvious that the clone was in fact a Mesmer.

View PostImpmon, on 04 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

As a mesmer I can reflect enemies projectiles, moa morph them, confuse which causes damage upon skill use, teleport, clone myself & use 1 of 4 insta's to either do aoe explosion damage, confuse more, distort, or daze, or spawn a warder or berserker which also do AOE damage & pull them off walls or ledges, blind etc.

I use primarily greatsword &  scepter/focus.  Confusion damage is quite simply awesome.  Everytime they try to use a skill they hit themselves with anywhere from 500-1000 damage.  

I can spawn a berserker, switch & add a warder.  Detonate them for some confusion aoe, and then dodge (spawns a clone) and then use clone skill, add 2 more then detonate them for aoe damage.  All while running around far away from the enemy who is most likely trying to attack the clones and not me.  

Should they get close, temporal field can knock them all back, or the GS sword wave,  teleport, decoy, invis field, or mass invis... rarely do I die unless totally zerged.  Even then you can easily escape zergs using the above abilities.  

Mesmers are strong,  if you however take out the phantasms fast and focus on the mesmer they're actually pretty squishy.  You need alot of burst damage and get in close.

Nice build. I am on the fence with the focus and pistol though

#45 Asudementio

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:04 PM

edit, for misunderstanding the core of the discussion.

Edited by Asudementio, 04 November 2012 - 07:05 PM.


#46 Shinimas

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:05 PM

Thief nerfs are confirmed.

#47 Impmon

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:07 PM

View PostAdashio, on 04 November 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

I was not referring to a new player when I said the word "noob". Or at least in some cases. I was instead referring to players of any level of experience that's were new to the basic and obvious tactic in fighting Mesmers. Which if you do not know is finding the real Mesmer in the group of clones they usually hide in. I even gave a way to identify a Mesmer from a clone. Which is to notice that the clone/Mesmer has a boon. And because clones cannot gain boons. It is obvious that the clone was in fact a Mesmer.



Nice build. I am on the fence with the focus and pistol though

With focus you can pull people off walls/ledges etc.  Takes a lil practice placing the temporal curtain in the right spot.  If someone is on a cliff usually by Longview Keep in WVW you put the curtain slightly below them.  If you have one person targetted standing with 3 others they'll all get pulled off the cliff, or wall.  I have fun just doing that lol.  The pistol might be good for single targets but you're usually always with people and I prefer more AOE bursts.

#48 Adashio

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:14 PM

View PostShinimas, on 04 November 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Thief nerfs are confirmed.

Really. What is your source

#49 Outt

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:57 PM

View PostAdashio, on 04 November 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Really. What is your source

lol if by confirmed does he mean "We're looking into thief burst damage" from a day or 2 ago's ANet post?

#50 Adashio

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:59 PM

Never mind I found the nerf he was talking about. Though the one I found only involved the heart seeker skill. Are there any more I missed

Edited by Adashio, 04 November 2012 - 07:59 PM.


#51 Lilitu

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:08 PM

Confirmed as in they are going to boost other areas to make up for any nerfs? Yup.

#52 Bloodtau

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:11 PM

The classes will never be properly balanced no matter how hard they try. This is why GW2 pvp will never be as good as they wanted it to be and will never take off as an e-sport.

Just Enjoy it for what it is, a casual break between PVE that you can spend a few hours or so in

#53 Asomal

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:47 PM

Mesmers are utter strong / broken in some aspects yet people keep crying over the thief,go figure.

#54 Coldman

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:54 PM

l2play

You can dodge Moa Morph, you can stun/immobalize Mesmers. Believe me, once you get close, Mesmers are done for with their light armor. And seriously? You can't find the right one in between the clones? It's the one NOT stationary and casting at a -100% firing rate. Usually the one running around and casting skills.

And don't give me the: "Yeah, but he goes in stealth and I can't find him". Mesmers have 4 skills that make them go stealth, 1 is elite, 1 has a 90 second recharge, the other is bound to torch (which rarely anyone uses).

If you can't find a Mesmer in between clones, then it's not Mesmers who are overpowered, it's you who can't play properly.

I'm sick of all this Mesmer hate when it's coming from people that don't know how to play the game.

Edited by Coldman, 04 November 2012 - 09:55 PM.


#55 Asha2012

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:55 PM

NEVERRRRR!!!!! (says the person playing a mesmer) :D

#56 Asha2012

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:26 PM

View PostYonnystarr, on 11 September 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

A bit of advice I will offer any player having trouble with a particular profession/build is to play that build yourself. After a few hours of playing that character you'll really start to understand how the profession works - you will learn their weaknesses, their strengths, how to capitalize on those weaknesses, and how to work around their strengths.

Mesmer is my favorite profession as of now, but I have played every single profession for several hours. It's amazing how much you can grow by putting yourself in the shoes of others.

I agree. I play a mesmer though I only play pve (which maybe makes this comment irrelevant) but I would say I am NOT indestructible.  Yes 1v1, I can definitely see how fighting me would be problematic, especially if I traited the right way.  But I could certainly take me down knowing what I know.

#57 Lilitu

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:16 PM

That's exactly what I did, Yonnystarr. I used to enjoy playing my warrior until I tried thief and mesmer.

#58 Shaynaro

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:13 AM

Mesmer here, playing it from the start. What is even more sad then how broken is the mesmer, is the refusal of the mesmer community to admit that it's OP.
Moa - yes, it can be dodge, blocked or whatever. The fact is that when it lands it's an almost guaranteed win for the mesmer. You can't say the same thing about Elementalist's pet, Engineer's Supply Drop , Ranger's Rampage as One or Warrior's signet. The only other elite changing the course of a 1v1 or 2v2 this much i think is Thieves Guild.
Time Warp - Quickness is absurd. Most of the community agrees and wish for the removal of it. The classes that get Quickness get a drawback( 50% more damage, no heal, no endurance ) and it is still considered broken. Yet there is the mesmer, with an AoE 10s buff with no drawback. How is this fine at all ?
Portal - Trebuchet repair, having mesmer and his buddies in 2 places at once, it's all been said before. Don't even get me started on teams with dual mesmer using portals.

I have been playing only shatter spec the past month and it's just very strong. The damage from mind wrack: 5-7k is quite the norm + it's aoe. Got 2 shatter mesmers there? You literally destroy teams with mind wrack.
The combination of Leap+Immobilize and Blurred Frenzy ( immune 2s ) is way too easy to land . It's simply a muuch better version of 100blades. Insert there  Mind Wrack and you have 10k damage pretty much all the time on decent toughness targets ( heavy training golem).. And we can do it every 10s.
The only classes that can resist our blurred frenzy+mind wrack combos are other mesmers, bunkers , very good tanky necros&engis and some shortbow thieves.

Combine this with the good survability of the mesmer ( staff leap, decoy, distortion, blurred frenzy, chaos armor ) and you have an amazing class that is pretty much a MUST for tPVP.

I honestly hope for mesmer nerfs ( especially to Portal & Time Warp )!

Final point - just going to leave you with this topic here: https://forum-en.gui...Some-Statistics . Check the image at the end of the first post. Pretty much sums it all up.

Edited by Shaynaro, 05 November 2012 - 12:45 AM.


#59 Aky

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:13 AM

Because there is a counter tactic/skill against Portal. Wait.

#60 Adashio

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:50 AM

View PostAky, on 05 November 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

Because there is a counter tactic/skill against Portal. Wait.

Actually there is. You simply stop the mesmer from going to the portal with aoe and control effects.

Edited by Adashio, 05 November 2012 - 10:42 AM.






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