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#1 UssjTrunks

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 02:09 AM

I'm currently rank 11 (almost 12) after about 30 hours of play time.

I typically earn about 150 glory (on average) from a single pickup game map. That is 600 glory for a full 4-map rotation. Assuming that every map takes 10-15 minutes to complete, we're looking at 40-60 minutes to earn 600 glory.

This is fine at the lower levels, but already when you hit rank 9-18, that means 4-7 hours of grind per level (as you need 4000 glory to level up).

At rank 39-48 (where you need a whopping 45,000 glory just to move up a single level), it would mean playing through 75 full map rotations (or 50-75 hours)  just to go up one level.

According to the wiki and using my numbers, it would take 800-1200 hours just to reach rank 48 (you need 721500 glory points). To put that into perspective, it usually takes me about a year to hit 300-400 hours in a game (which is also usually when I stop playing a game).

Does no one else feel this is a little absurd? At this rate, I can see maybe 1% of the player base hitting rank 80. The vast majority of players will give up long before that. I think that if you want to maintain player interest in the game, you should give them attainable goals. I understand needing to work for something, but this ranking system requires you to do nothing but grind for thousands of hours.

Yes, I understand that it’s just for cosmetics. My point is that people will continue to play a game “just for cosmetics”, but those goals need to be within reasonable reach for them to do so.

Also, correct me if my math is wrong (I'm not good with numbers).

Edited by UssjTrunks, 17 September 2012 - 01:36 AM.


#2 Ghetto Medic

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 02:16 AM

It should be long so that rank 80 is not common, but I think it could be toned down a little bit especially the lower ranks

#3 UssjTrunks

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 02:18 AM

View PostGhetto Medic, on 15 September 2012 - 02:16 AM, said:

It should be long so that rank 80 is not common, but I think it could be toned down a little bit especially the lower ranks

How long does it take to reach level 80 in PvE? 50-60 hours?

Compare that with 2000+ hours in PvP (again, I'm guessing here, but that looks about right considering the current numbers on the wiki). Sure PvP rank is account-wide, but it still shouldn't take that long. I can bring 8 individual characters to level 80 in PvE in a few hundred hours.

Edited by UssjTrunks, 15 September 2012 - 02:22 AM.


#4 Zedabi

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 02:23 AM

I'd say it depends on if the expansion (when it comes out) increases the rank, and when it comes out.

If the expansion doesn't increase the rank, or an expansion two years down the line increases the rank, then I'd say it's perfectly reasonable for it to take a lot of time to obtain top rank. 3000 hours (give or take - 1200 doubled, plus extra since it'll take longer each progressive level) to reach top rank over a year is pretty reasonable, I'd say. Even more reasonable if they don't increase the rank cap.

#5 phobos

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 02:26 AM

The treadmill is pretty dreadful, I agree.  However, the mistake you're making is thinking that more players are expected to get to max rank.  Being b2p, it's not meant to be accessible after a week or two it's meant to literally take years.  And ideally, the play itself is supposed to be much of the reward, not whatever trivial rank lies at the end of things.  It's just extra.

That said, I wish there were some more rewards to fill the gaps.  It'd be slightly more compelling to get something every few hours or every 1000pts, even if it were just a box of crappy gizmos.  Logging in and realizing you'll be getting no reward from play for another month or so sucks.

#6 Egaid

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 02:34 AM

Also keep in mind, winning a free tournament grants you an extra 200 glory. I'd be willing to bet paid tournaments would offer you more. I tend to get more glory from farming tournaments than from hot join.

#7 UssjTrunks

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 03:08 AM

View PostZedabi, on 15 September 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

I'd say it depends on if the expansion (when it comes out) increases the rank, and when it comes out.

If the expansion doesn't increase the rank, or an expansion two years down the line increases the rank, then I'd say it's perfectly reasonable for it to take a lot of time to obtain top rank. 3000 hours (give or take - 1200 doubled, plus extra since it'll take longer each progressive level) to reach top rank over a year is pretty reasonable, I'd say. Even more reasonable if they don't increase the rank cap.

I average about 300-400 hours a year! :P

Also, 3000 hours of playing four maps and one game mode over and over again will get boring, no matter how great the game. They will need to continuously add new maps and game modes to keep the game fresh if they want people to stick around for that long. Perhaps they can consider adding custom maps and game modes like in FPS games.

I think they should consider adding alternate means of obtaining armour as well. For example, they can have tournament tokens serve a similar role to dungeon tokens. So "x" number of tokens will allow you to buy an armour piece of your choice. I imagine that most of the cool armours will only be available at the higher levels, which is why some kind of skill-based alternative would be appealing for those that simply can't attain those hours due to real life time constraints.

Or perhaps if they introduce a ladder system, they can tie your ladder rank to which armours you can obtain as well, giving people an alternative.

Edited by UssjTrunks, 15 September 2012 - 03:15 AM.


#8 phobos

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 03:16 AM

There are a thousand games in a dozen genres better suited for people with real life time constraints than MMOs.

#9 Zedabi

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 03:22 AM

View PostUssjTrunks, on 15 September 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

I average about 300-400 hours a year! :P

I think they should consider adding alternate means of obtaining armour. For example, giving out tournament tokens similar to dungeon tokens. So "x" number of tokens will allow you to buy an armour piece of your choice. I imagine that most of the cool armours will only be available at the higher levels, which is why some kind of skill-based alternative would be appealing for those that simply can't attain those hours due to real life time constraints.

I can understand the time-constraints.

I also just realised you'd have to play about 6 hours a day at that rate to get max rank within a year.

Shh. It's been a while since I've had to do maths.

That being said, I still stand by that we should wait to see if they increase the cap before complaining. 3000 hours in a year is a lot different than 3000 hours in say 3 or 4 years.

As for the token system you proposed; maybe have a token every 5 wins (so 45 wins for the whole set), for example. The next tier then takes every 10 wins, and so on. Or maybe have sets tied into achievements to promote tactical gameplay. For example, defending a point a certain number of times gets you gear (or / and a title) unique to that part (since I've heard holding points doesn't really help get glory).

#10 Rivertold

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 03:39 AM

I haven't researched as well as the OP, but I felt the hit pretty heavily. I got to rank 10 in seemingly no time, today got to 11 and it seems to me I've played more at r10 than through 1-9. It's still a minor complain though, as gear is cosmetic and I see pvp as the true end game. So it's only natural to be respectful when you see someone in r80 set. They need tone it down a bit for lower levels though, that's for sure.

#11 Alaroxr

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 03:50 AM

PvP rank =/= PvE level

They are not the same thing. At all.

#12 UssjTrunks

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 04:10 AM

View Postphobos, on 15 September 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

There are a thousand games in a dozen genres better suited for people with real life time constraints than MMOs.

Fortunately, GW2 is perfect for me as it doesn't have gear grind. This is only really a minor gripe. I wanted to hit Dolyak rank this week to get some new armour, but then I realized that wasn't going to happen. :P

Now, although you can play GW2 fine without the coolest armour, its always going to be tempting you. :P This is why I proposed adding alternate methods for obtaining armour. Obviously some armours should be saved for certain ranks, but not all of them.

Edited by UssjTrunks, 15 September 2012 - 04:16 AM.


#13 Charleey

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 04:15 AM

why grind for COSMETIC gear at all? just saying, i know you can hop in and out at leisure but its still just for something that looks different.
why?

#14 UssjTrunks

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 04:19 AM

View PostCharleey, on 15 September 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

why grind for COSMETIC gear at all? just saying, i know you can hop in and out at leisure but its still just for something that looks different.
why?

Because I want to look cool!

It certainly isn't needed to enjoy the game though. It's just a fun little goal to aspire towards.

#15 Charleey

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 04:25 AM

View PostUssjTrunks, on 15 September 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Because I want to look cool!

It certainly isn't needed to enjoy the game though. It's just a fun little goal to aspire towards.

but at the end of the day someone can have exactly the same as you (looking the same)...now if you had armor/weps with stats increase from pvp (that also had cosmetic differences) it wouldnt just be about the looks, it would be for the gear, oh and the skill of the player would shine through more

#16 Crawmerax

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 04:33 AM

View PostCharleey, on 15 September 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

why grind for COSMETIC gear at all? just saying, i know you can hop in and out at leisure but its still just for something that looks different.
why?

Because it's the reward? People are given Glory points for participating in PvP, and the sole use of Glory points is to get "COSMETIC" gear.

Why do people try so hard to get Xbox Live achievements? Why do people grind for mounts which have the same stats as what they've already got, on WoW? Why do people try to 100% complete a game?

The answer is obvious; Because they want to. And the reason is equally obvious; Because it gives a sense of achievement.

Now, what GW2 is doing is saying; "Hey guys, enough PvP will get you this really cool stuff" and telling us that if we're going to set a goal for ourselves in PvP, it's either going to be winning high tier tournaments, getting all the gear, or both.

One of those is just a matter of time, and that is the one most people will aim for... except Anet seem to want it to be a world-record grindfest. And that is the issue here. We want our sense of achievement, without spending 2000 hours to buy it. The reward is not worth the grind.

Honestly, people are so fixated by the fact that the gear is just cosmetic. I'd much sooner beat someone on equal terms, and look really cool doing it, than beat someone just because I've got better gear.

OT: I think the grind is excessive, too. Although I think the fact that you buy chests with the glory you pick up isn't being accounted for here. That is technically a miniature reward you get every few games.

View PostCharleey, on 15 September 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

but at the end of the day someone can have exactly the same as you (looking the same)...now if you had armor/weps with stats increase from pvp (that also had cosmetic differences) it wouldnt just be about the looks, it would be for the gear, oh and the skill of the player would shine through more

And that the end of the day, someone can have exactly the same stats as you, if you're playing a game with stat-reliant PvP gear.

And arbitrarily RNG increases do not equal "skill shining through more". In fact, it's quite the opposite. Which is why Usain Bolt isn't given a 10% shorter track, just because he's won lots of races. Beating a player on a level playing field is what proves skill, which is why all the oldest competitions (like any in the Olympics, for instance) do their utmost to remove things which will impact the competition, which is not related to the skill of the people involved e.g. steroids.

#17 Charleey

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 04:51 AM

View PostCrawmerax, on 15 September 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

Because it's the reward? People are given Glory points for participating in PvP, and the sole use of Glory points is to get "COSMETIC" gear.

Why do people try so hard to get Xbox Live achievements? Why do people grind for mounts which have the same stats as what they've already got, on WoW? Why do people try to 100% complete a game?

The answer is obvious; Because they want to. And the reason is equally obvious; Because it gives a sense of achievement.

Now, what GW2 is doing is saying; "Hey guys, enough PvP will get you this really cool stuff" and telling us that if we're going to set a goal for ourselves in PvP, it's either going to be winning high tier tournaments, getting all the gear, or both.

One of those is just a matter of time, and that is the one most people will aim for... except Anet seem to want it to be a world-record grindfest. And that is the issue here. We want our sense of achievement, without spending 2000 hours to buy it. The reward is not worth the grind.

Honestly, people are so fixated by the fact that the gear is just cosmetic. I'd much sooner beat someone on equal terms, and look really cool doing it, than beat someone just because I've got better gear.

OT: I think the grind is excessive, too. Although I think the fact that you buy chests with the glory you pick up isn't being accounted for here. That is technically a miniature reward you get every few games.



And that the end of the day, someone can have exactly the same stats as you, if you're playing a game with stat-reliant PvP gear.

And arbitrarily RNG increases do not equal "skill shining through more". In fact, it's quite the opposite. Which is why Usain Bolt isn't given a 10% shorter track, just because he's won lots of races. Beating a player on a level playing field is what proves skill, which is why all the oldest competitions (like any in the Olympics, for instance) do their utmost to remove things which will impact the competition, which is not related to the skill of the people involved e.g. steroids.

dont get me wrong i think having an equal playing field is fine until it gets tedious as ++++, too easy blah blah blah, wvw was a zerg fest (desolation) but as it was stated gw2 was for a casual gamer, im just not a casual gamer, thats all. I like to gain gear by doing something (even if it does involve grinding) more than playing a few maps and by random chance getting the drops i need to make my piece. grinding just to get to the certain rank, then to have your gear on a chance for a COSMETIC reason is well....a bit desperate.

View PostCrawmerax, on 15 September 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

Because it's the reward? People are given Glory points for participating in PvP, and the sole use of Glory points is to get "COSMETIC" gear.

Why do people try so hard to get Xbox Live achievements? Why do people grind for mounts which have the same stats as what they've already got, on WoW? Why do people try to 100% complete a game?

The answer is obvious; Because they want to. And the reason is equally obvious; Because it gives a sense of achievement.

Now, what GW2 is doing is saying; "Hey guys, enough PvP will get you this really cool stuff" and telling us that if we're going to set a goal for ourselves in PvP, it's either going to be winning high tier tournaments, getting all the gear, or both.

One of those is just a matter of time, and that is the one most people will aim for... except Anet seem to want it to be a world-record grindfest. And that is the issue here. We want our sense of achievement, without spending 2000 hours to buy it. The reward is not worth the grind.

Honestly, people are so fixated by the fact that the gear is just cosmetic. I'd much sooner beat someone on equal terms, and look really cool doing it, than beat someone just because I've got better gear.

OT: I think the grind is excessive, too. Although I think the fact that you buy chests with the glory you pick up isn't being accounted for here. That is technically a miniature reward you get every few games.



And that the end of the day, someone can have exactly the same stats as you, if you're playing a game with stat-reliant PvP gear.

And arbitrarily RNG increases do not equal "skill shining through more". In fact, it's quite the opposite. Which is why Usain Bolt isn't given a 10% shorter track, just because he's won lots of races. Beating a player on a level playing field is what proves skill, which is why all the oldest competitions (like any in the Olympics, for instance) do their utmost to remove things which will impact the competition, which is not related to the skill of the people involved e.g. steroids.


And i bet if he felt *y enough because he knew he was top dog he would give people a advantage, just like geared people would in pvp, its all a show, a 'whos got the best gear show', or in a fps you would ++++ about with them if they were like lvl 1 and you were 30+, i know i have

#18 Crawmerax

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 04:58 AM

View PostCharleey, on 15 September 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

dont get me wrong i think having an equal playing field is fine until it gets tedious as ++++, too easy blah blah blah, wvw was a zerg fest (desolation) but as it was stated gw2 was for a casual gamer, im just not a casual gamer, thats all. I like to gain gear by doing something (even if it does involve grinding) more than playing a few maps and by random chance getting the drops i need to make my piece. grinding just to get to the certain rank, then to have your gear on a chance for a COSMETIC reason is well....a bit desperate.

If it's too easy, that's because you're competing against the wrong people. I've met all too many people who seem to think "difficulty" in competitive games has anything to do with the game itself. It doesn't. The player you're playing the game against should be the sole source of difficulty.

I think wanting something that will help your chances of victory, which has nothing to do with your actual ability, is more "desperate" than wanting something for appearances sake.

I'd say that buying a chess set with one extra white piece, just so you can have an advantage all the time, is demonstrably worse than buying a cool looking chess set with no actual advantages.

And even though you might think that grinding for cosmetic items is "desperate", I've got to say... Welcome to MMOs. Millions have been grinding for pointless shit for more than a decade.

#19 Charleey

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 05:04 AM

View PostCrawmerax, on 15 September 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

If it's too easy, that's because you're competing against the wrong people. I've met all too many people who seem to think "difficulty" in competitive games has anything to do with the game itself. It doesn't. The player you're playing the game against should be the sole source of difficulty.

I think wanting something that will help your chances of victory, which has nothing to do with your actual ability, is more "desperate" than wanting something for appearances sake.

I'd say that buying a chess set with one extra white piece, just so you can have an advantage all the time, is demonstrably worse than buying a cool looking chess set with no actual advantages.

And even though you might think that grinding for cosmetic items is "desperate", I've got to say... Welcome to MMOs. Millions have been grinding for pointless shit for more than a decade.

naa i just like to overkill people, and i dont mind a bit of a grind, i find if they can be arsed to do it then they may stand a chance (because they have grinded for that gear for the same reason i did, to KILL)

#20 Crawmerax

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 05:06 AM

View PostCharleey, on 15 September 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

And i bet if he felt *y enough because he knew he was top dog he would give people a advantage, just like geared people would in pvp, its all a show, a 'whos got the best gear show', or in a fps you would ++++ about with them if they were like lvl 1 and you were 30+, i know i have

If you've got a gear advantage, and then you give away that gear advantage by giving a player a different advantage, then you may as well not have the gear advantage at all, because you're back on equal terms. That's entirely self-defeating.

Gear either gives you an advantage, or it doesn't. And if you're going to just give away the advantage, then it might as well just be cosmetic. But if you're not going to give away the advantage, then you have an unlevel playing field, where you could beat a more skilled player just because you've got better gear, and I don't see how that's a desirable system in the least.

View PostCharleey, on 15 September 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

naa i just like to overkill people, and i dont mind a bit of a grind, i find if they can be arsed to do it then they may stand a chance (because they have grinded for that gear for the same reason i did, to KILL)

But that's because you're taking pride in the wrong things. Killing someone just because you have better gear is no victory at all.

And as soon as someone "can be arsed" to grind the same gear as you, then the gear advantage is gone again, and the gear may as well have been cosmetic in the first place...

Edit: But for UssjTrunks' sake, I'd like it if we could steer this back on topic; So how do you feel about the length of the grind?

Edited by Crawmerax, 15 September 2012 - 05:07 AM.


#21 Charleey

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 05:09 AM

View PostCrawmerax, on 15 September 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

If you've got a gear advantage, and then you give away that gear advantage by giving a player a different advantage, then you may as well not have the gear advantage at all, because you're back on equal terms. That's entirely self-defeating.

Gear either gives you an advantage, or it doesn't. And if you're going to just give away the advantage, then it might as well just be cosmetic. But if you're not going to give away the advantage, then you have an unlevel playing field, where you could beat a more skilled player just because you've got better gear, and I don't see how that's a desirable system in the least.



But that's because you're taking pride in the wrong things. Killing someone just because you have better gear is no victory at all.

And as soon as someone "can be arsed" to grind the same gear as you, then the gear advantage is gone again, and the gear may as well have been cosmetic in the first place...

i mean by getting gear that specializes on the build you have made, the only thing in gw2 that does that is necklaces or wteva, i just wanted more oomf to my build to emphasize it alot more

#22 Crawmerax

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 05:12 AM

View PostCharleey, on 15 September 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

i mean by getting gear that specializes on the build you have made, the only thing in gw2 that does that is necklaces or wteva, i just wanted more oomf to my build to emphasize it alot more

But GW2 offers much more gear customization than any MMO I've ever played (and that's a pretty significant list). Have you not been to the runes vendor? Have you not seen how many potential different stat setups your armour can have?

You can specialize on your build more than any game I know of, to give it more oomph. Say, if you're playing a condition spec, there are like ten different rune sets that add condition damage, and they're all unique in that they offer different bonuses, to emphasis freezing or burning, etc.

And the best part is, you can do it all from level one, so you can immediately begin experimenting with builds/runes/sigils and the potential set ups, as you unlock the cosmetic gear you put the runes/sigils in.

Edit: Again, to try and steer this back on topic; How do you feel about the length of the potential grind to PvP Rank 80?

Edited by Crawmerax, 15 September 2012 - 05:13 AM.


#23 Charleey

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 05:14 AM

View PostCharleey, on 15 September 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

i mean by getting gear that specializes on the build you have made, the only thing in gw2 that does that is necklaces or wteva, i just wanted more oomf to my build to emphasize it alot more

oh and the runes give you a boost aswell i know that but not a significant amount, just wanted more power( how sith of me)

#24 Takato

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 05:58 AM

Maybe, just maybe, only the truly dedicated are supposed to reach max rank ?
This is an MMO, you're not supposed to finish it in a few weeks. This is supposed to take a few years >_>

#25 Heisenberg

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 07:04 AM

I think up to 30 or so could be a bit quicker. But I agree the ranks above should be a long-term achievement.

#26 Sinnara

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 09:03 AM

I agree with the OP, the grind is pretty excessive. I just hit rank 30 yesterday, and now it is taking forever to rank up. That combined with the fact that I dislike the looks of the next tier of gear (tiger), and I'll have to wait to at least rank 50 before getting new armor for my characters makes me feel demotivated. :(

There is tons of awesome armor in this game, and I don't like that the grind to get them is so long. Having each rank require the same amount as like 20-21 or something would be much better.

#27 ysnakke

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 03:02 PM

This is nothing compared to pre-ToA realm ranks in DAoC. It should be like this, so that I don't see every 1button smasher rank 80 or whatever the highest rank is.

#28 UssjTrunks

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 03:46 PM

View Postysnakke, on 15 September 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

This is nothing compared to pre-ToA realm ranks in DAoC. It should be like this, so that I don't see every 1button smasher rank 80 or whatever the highest rank is.

But that's exactly what you might see as this isn't a skill-based ranking system, but a simple time-played one.

#29 Veldan

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 04:16 PM

In Guild Wars 1, you had hero rank, which was from a certain form of PvP. There was no gear to get there, just a title and an emote, which was somewhat like the finisher emotes here (also with flasy animals). It took over 3 years (iirc) for the first player to hit max rank. And yet, everyone that I knew loved the rank system, and was always motivated to keep playing for more fame (rank points).

You see, what many people seem to forget is that it's not that much fun to be max rank. The awesome part is ranking up, being somewhere in the middle. Once you hit max there's nothing to play for anymore, no progression. So be glad it takes a while!

#30 UssjTrunks

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 08:20 PM

View PostVeldan, on 15 September 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

In Guild Wars 1, you had hero rank, which was from a certain form of PvP. There was no gear to get there, just a title and an emote, which was somewhat like the finisher emotes here (also with flasy animals). It took over 3 years (iirc) for the first player to hit max rank. And yet, everyone that I knew loved the rank system, and was always motivated to keep playing for more fame (rank points).

You see, what many people seem to forget is that it's not that much fun to be max rank. The awesome part is ranking up, being somewhere in the middle. Once you hit max there's nothing to play for anymore, no progression. So be glad it takes a while!

The vast majority of players will give up before they hit 80. I know I did when I realized how long it would take. I'm just playing for fun at this point.

And like you said, GW1 only gave you a title for reaching a high rank. Almost all the cosmetic gear in GW2 is tied to your rank. So although you don't need the high rank, it certainly is demoralizing knowing that you can't reach it.

The current rank system also doesn't reward PvP performance, but rather time-played. You could be an absolutely dominant player but someone who has played longer will still have access to cooler armour than you. They should have two ranking systems, one for performance, and one for time played, with both giving you access to the same gear.

Edited by UssjTrunks, 15 September 2012 - 08:23 PM.





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