69 replies to this topic

[Hova]

Anelyn, on 17 September 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Geez this thread starts to look as if Mesmers want to be the kings of 1v1 and nobody can challenge them and have a fair chance at beating them. They can block and have 2 teleports and powerfull phantasms and shatters and 5 weapons to swap all in 1 spec. Really?
I mean everyone knows that a thief with venom sharing and thieves guild + ambush trap is unbeatable with all cds up (given a skilled player that knows what he's doing, when to do it, and how).

Nobody said mesmer is a pushover fight, but claiming that is unbeatable in 1v1 is just a rich imagination. 1st: your dodge capability is limited. 2nd: you have cooldowns on your utility / defensive abilities, most of thief ones are initiative based which can be greatly improved by traits, 3rd: thief has better burst or condition damage than a mesmer and is all player related, no buggy AI involved (gl shattering a thief who Infilatror Arrow's or Shadowsteps to a ledge, then comes back at you when your clone army is half way around the map).

Stop presuming the thief runs heads on to you while you pop all your clones, cast all debuffs and buffs, and he tries to reach you ignoring the clones that rape his butt, spamming his skills with full confusion stacks and what not. My take is you fought too many HS spamming noobs who are tunnel vision spamming 2 key not even seeing their screen.

I'll just repeat what i said above, i'm not a mesmer. So stop assuming i'm one and that i'm here only to brag about mesmers... With that being said, i've made my point in this thread. Believe whatever you want. You two are entitled to your opinion, as i'm entitled to mine, so let's leave it at that...

[Drtrider]

Mesmers. A thousand time mesmers. If I see one I turn and run the other direction. O.o

[Ponzio]

Anelyn, on 17 September 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Geez this thread starts to look as if Mesmers want to be the kings of 1v1 and nobody can challenge them and have a fair chance at beating them. They can block and have 2 teleports and powerfull phantasms and shatters and 5 weapons to swap all in 1 spec. Really?
I mean everyone knows that a thief with venom sharing and thieves guild + ambush trap is unbeatable with all cds up (given a skilled player that knows what he's doing, when to do it, and how).

I run sword/sword + scepter/pistol blink/arcane thievery/decoy as utility
Lets look what I have 2 blocks, 2 invulnerability (one with a very short cooldown), 2 dazes, one stun, one stunbreaking teleport, one invisibility and can send conditions on me to you. You can basicaly rotate those abilities and you can build mesmers with more.

Who says that this specific thief build is unbeatable.

Anelyn, on 17 September 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Nobody said mesmer is a pushover fight, but claiming that is unbeatable in 1v1 is just a rich imagination. 1st: your dodge capability is limited. 2nd: you have cooldowns on your utility / defensive abilities, most of thief ones are initiative based which can be greatly improved by traits, 3rd: thief has better burst or condition damage than a mesmer and is all player related, no buggy AI involved (gl shattering a thief who Infilatror Arrow's or Shadowsteps to a ledge, then comes back at you when your clone army is half way around the map).

Ive already listet all the other ways a mesmer avoids damage. Most of my cooldowns are so short that i can rotate them, like burried frenzy that has 8 seconds cooldown in my spec and gives me 2 seconds of invunerability. A mesmer can fart out conditions, engi, mesmer and necro are the top condition classes if you look at uptime and sheer amount of stuff they put on you. Why would I want to shatter you anyway when I see you escaping or not close to clones? Best time to shatter is when the thief stealthes, he needs to stay close if he wants to attack cause of the short stealth time and clones shatter where they stand if theirs no target. Another good thing about shatter is that its can burst down the thief guild elite.

Anelyn, on 17 September 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Stop presuming the thief runs heads on to you while you pop all your clones, cast all debuffs and buffs, and he tries to reach you ignoring the clones that rape his butt, spamming his skills with full confusion stacks and what not. My take is you fought too many HS spamming noobs who are tunnel vision spamming 2 key not even seeing their screen.

If you attack the clones/phantasm a mesmer can put conditions on you. If you attack the mesmer his phantasms will burst you down.

Your whole post reads like you never played a mesmer for longer than 5 min.

Edited by Ponzio, 17 September 2012 - 07:23 PM.

[Kinjaz]

Hova, on 17 September 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

i'm not a mesmer fyi. i'm stating the fact that mesmer are almost unbeatable atm when faced with at least equally skilled opponents. This was the discussion that arose in this thread.
And if you're really convinced about the fact that thieves can actually land that burst, why do you think that most teams atm use a mesmer to either defend a point or stay on treb at khylo? (not talking about the portal abuse ofc).
Like i said, go watch some vids\streams of top mesmers and see how easilly they defeat thiefs, then get back to me.

I do actually kill mesmers whether its a bunker or treb defending. Some may take longer than usual to kill and some do kill me but  I am really questioning your level of skill as a thief. If you play enough in tournaments, you will notice they are definitely beatable. Look at top thief/warrior in fact look at any top players' streams and see how they defeat mesmers. Its not like thieves lack aoe damage to kill phantasms and mesmers cannot stay invulnerable for long.  And no I don't need to Get back to you cause you are just proving nothing and you aren't giving us any inputs on how to be a better thief. Please leave this thread and thank you.

[Hova]

Kinjaz, on 17 September 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

I do actually kill mesmers whether its a bunker or treb defending. Some may take longer than usual to kill and some do kill me but  I am really questioning your level of skill as a thief. If you play enough in tournaments, you will notice they are definitely beatable. Look at top thief/warrior in fact look at any top players' streams and see how they defeat mesmers. Its not like thieves lack aoe damage to kill phantasms and mesmers cannot stay invulnerable for long.  And no I don't need to Get back to you cause you are just proving nothing and you aren't giving us any inputs on how to be a better thief. Please leave this thread and thank you.

1st of all, you question my level of skill as a thief based on 2 or 3 replies in a forum? that's awesome.
2nd-I'll just quote what i said above since you apparently didn't read it, probably because you were to focused to resorting to personal attacks i guess.

Hova, on 17 September 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

...With that being said, i've made my point in this thread. Believe whatever you want. You two are entitled to your opinion, as i'm entitled to mine, so let's leave it at that...

[Nibiru23]

Scarlet_Blossom, on 16 September 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

One? Unless they run a staff in which case they have two.

one? you wish, most mesmer dont use reflection build, ppl only care about spamm phantasm.

[Kinjaz]

Hova, on 17 September 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

1st of all, you question my level of skill as a thief based on 2 or 3 replies in a forum? that's awesome.
2nd-I'll just quote what i said above since you apparently didn't read it, probably because you were to focused to resorting to personal attacks i guess.

Hova, on 17 September 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

1st of all, you question my level of skill as a thief based on 2 or 3 replies in a forum? that's awesome.
2nd-I'll just quote what i said above since you apparently didn't read it, probably because you were to focused to resorting to personal attacks i guess.

Well apparently you didn't read what this thread was made for. I asked for tips on how to beat other classes as a thief not you coming here and blindly tell people to watch streams and get back to you? Come on. Stop replying to this thread.

[Hova]

Name of the thread is: "Which class is the toughest to kill?"

I say mesmers are the most difficult for thiefs and apparently i'm not fulfilling the purpose of this thread. Got it. Your logic is amazing really.
Don't worry, i'll leave your precious thread alone. I have nothing more to say to you.

[Scarlet_Blossom]

Nibiru23, on 17 September 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

one? you wish, most mesmer dont use reflection build, ppl only care about spamm phantasm.

I'm not able to see the point you're trying to make because of the structure of your sentence. If your point is that most people run shatter/reflection builds, nice try, they don't. Even if they do run shatter builds with reflection on distortion you don't take any damage aside from your initial steal (in case they popped it that early, which is unlikely) and the parts of your Pistol Whip animation that does not evade, so your stun which does barely any damage by itself. Also while distortion may negate the damage, it does not break immobilize so your whole argument is beside anyway.

[Razkurdt Thunderclaw]

the only real problem with mesmers is burning innitiave agaisnt the clones, ctrl + left click the original will help you keeping a target reticle at the real at all time, even if there is half dozen of clones around. after i discovered that, i never lost agaisnt any mesmer again, with any class.

i had interest on Lowell comment about undefeatable tripple meditations guardians for thief, and i made myself one, and can say for sure, that i have never lost a 1 on 1 agaisnt a thief, not even agaisnt HS spamers, even though im not thief, i find those ppl insulting to the thief class, one time i even found one, that after using all his innitiative on HS spaming me, and couldnt kill me, he inmediatly try to run away without trying anything else, hence, showing his dependance on the skill

Edited by Razkurdt Thunderclaw, 18 September 2012 - 01:15 PM.

[kirinichibon]

As a mesmer, I only fear thieves if I'm equipped and slotted for siege zerging...GSword+Scepter/Focus and Feedback. I'll save clone and knockback just for heartseeker spammers.

If you see a decently equipped mesmer with a staff+sword/pistol, they are likely out hunting thieves.

[Grendel]

Razkurdt Thunderclaw, on 18 September 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

the only real problem with mesmers is burning innitiave agaisnt the clones, ctrl + left click the original will help you keeping a target reticle at the real at all time, even if there is half dozen of clones around. after i discovered that, i never lost agaisnt any mesmer again, with any class.

i had interest on Lowell comment about undefeatable tripple meditations guardians for thief, and i made myself one, and can say for sure, that i have never lost a 1 on 1 agaisnt a thief, not even agaisnt HS spamers, even though im not thief, i find those ppl insulting to the thief class, one time i even found one, that after using all his innitiative on HS spaming me, and couldnt kill me, he inmediatly try to run away without trying anything else, hence, showing his dependance on the skill

I've met one too many HS spammers and it's true, they are a 1 hit pony that will high tail and run as soon as their "combo" didn't work..

As for the mesmer ctrl+click tip, thanks. I always just target and attack the one that has boons, but that's time wasted.

Edited by Grendel, 18 September 2012 - 03:26 PM.

[Oshef]

Xavory, on 16 September 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

Bunker guardians exploiting retaliation are the hardest class for any class to kill.

If I see one in a tournament game I avoid him for the rest of the map and make myself useful elsewhere. There is literally not a thing I can do about it. You can strip it if you want, but they'll put it right back up.

[Ponzio]

Oshef, on 18 September 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

If I see one in a tournament game I avoid him for the rest of the map and make myself useful elsewhere. There is literally not a thing I can do about it. You can strip it if you want, but they'll put it right back up.

Phantasm mesmers (cause the retaliation kills the phantasm not the player) and well necros can but the effort to actually do it compared to the effort that the guardian has is a joke.

[musibatkhan]

Mesmer for me is a joke as long as you have SBow. bombard all the illusions then ctrl T the real one = Dead mesmer.

Most Mesmers are dumb they roll and are doing things that the clones wont do hence its easy to know which one is the real one.

If Mesmer gets the jump on you just escape, concentrate on escaping and once you get health back come around and show them how a real ambush is done.

for me as a thief the hardest fight is against engineers who have turrets and all those shenanigans. and its even more harder if the engineer decides to bring a grenade kit along with all of the shenanigans.  lucky for us thieves, engineers are the leest played class.

We all think Mesmers are hard to fight because if you press B in a match 80% of the players are Thief or Mesmer now we wont consider fighting our selves hard right? hence Mesmer

its very rare to see another class that is being played well in SPVP.

Edited by musibatkhan, 05 October 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[turbo234]

Playing a warrior, the only class I feel is more difficult to fight against is a mesmer. Possibly necro. Rangers are easy, eles are a joke, engineers are a joke, theives I rarely have a problem with, guardians are all support so it just takes a little longer, warriors are meh.

[musibatkhan]

turbo234, on 05 October 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Playing a warrior, the only class I feel is more difficult to fight against is a mesmer. Possibly necro. Rangers are easy, eles are a joke, engineers are a joke, theives I rarely have a problem with, guardians are all support so it just takes a little longer, warriors are meh.

this topic is about thief. Shoo away warrior.

[turbo234]

musibatkhan, on 05 October 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

this topic is about thief. Shoo away warrior.

Welp, I'm embarrassed. I even looked at the top but didn't see "thief."

[Takato]

Coming from someone who mains both mesmer and thief, I can easily say mesmer would win hands down.

Illusionary personna, that's all.

[Breakin]

I play both Mesmer and Thief. In fact those are my main classes.


As a thief, I'd say the hardest class to beat is Guardian. It's just the way it is. A good Guardian will shit on you no matter what.

Mesmers are beatable. In fact, they are kind of easy for glass cannon Thieves like mine since most Mesmers don't use Blink because they are bad, and they mostly have Decoy, which you easily counter by going Stealth for longer than they do.( again, easy ).

[realmisr]

From my humble experience so far-

Mesmers are definitely annoying for the initial part of the fight and when they are down...it's a whole process to kill them.

But honestly after you burst their clones down with cluster bombs and trick shots, they are hardly a problem. The stuff they can do that can actually damage you won't kill you fast enough and you can pretty much dodge a good amount of it. You just have to bait out all their tricks with a sb and go in for the kill during their cds. If they are in stealth, just go into stealth and wait til they come out and ctrl+t and mark them for death.

Thieves guild is also a joke considering you could just kite and/or stealth for a while until they vanish. The 3 min cd is ridiculous. You could die 10x over in 3 mins.

The great thing about thieves is that we're the most mobile class in the game...shadowstepping at 1200 range, stealthing, infiltrator's arrow, etc, if you can dodge the other class's skills or kite them until their durations are over, more often than not they become sitting ducks waiting for cds. We run on initiative which is a godsend compared to cds, you can use the same skill over and over again as you choose and if you do it at the right time, it will make or break a match. I find a lot of times people will use all their skills at once because they think you'd die right away, but if you are patient and bait their skills out and they WILL come out, you can retaliate and burst them down pretty easily because they will be waiting for cds.

Edited by realmisr, 06 October 2012 - 04:41 AM.

[Maple]

Guardian has retal... Mesmer has low cooldown on their kiting skills. Every other class can be burst down unless they go pure bunker.
1v1 it depends on enemy skill
2v2 it depends on enemy utilities and coordination

[Orlake]

Guardians for me, not so much as in they're hard to kill but it's a pain in the ass when I have to fight one; it's not that the guardian kills me, but his buddies that roll along in the middle of the inevitable hour long fight

[Red_Falcon]

I don't have a lot of sPvP experience on Thief compared to my other classes, but so far the general rule I see is that anything without toughness will die, anything with toughness I better try my trick and move away if it doesn't work.

My trick is to port to them and fake a burst: most people will crap their pants and use all their CDs (this is very fun to see, and it's pretty much an admission they stacked no toughness).
I kite those CDs and they are left autoattacking; now proceed to kill them easily.

[Cry]

Xavory, on 16 September 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

Bunker guardians exploiting retaliation are the hardest class for any class to kill.

This, Never Die Guardians running Staff, Mace/Shield Exploiting the current block bug, and Bunker Engineers with blind and tons of protection uptime / sustain.

those are about the only two classes/builds I cannot beat in most cases, everything else is pretty simple.

Edited by Cry, 13 October 2012 - 10:10 PM.

[SnowmanRelic]

Playing as a thief most of the time I say Theive's are hardest to kill, people usually can get me down to a danger-zone then I just start popping stealth skills until they lose me.  Run forward pop a skill turn around duck behind a wall and theyd never find me.

[Balala]

Cry, on 13 October 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

This, Never Die Guardians running Staff, Mace/Shield Exploiting the current block bug, and Bunker Engineers with blind and tons of protection uptime / sustain.

those are about the only two classes/builds I cannot beat in most cases, everything else is pretty simple.

What block bug??
Its nearly impossible to kill a bunker guardian imo.

I may just have fought bad mesmers, hardly have a difficult time on 1v1.

[Angarato86]

as a thief: Good engineers just slaughter me. good thing engineers are rare and good engineers are so rare theyre almost a myth.

as a hunter: thief! theyre such a pain in the ass, I've been trying to see how other rangers do vs my thief but honestly theyre just free kills.
on the other hand tho I destroy warriors and guardians and pretty much everything else. cept mesmers can still be very annoying at times.

[Cabbage]

Mesmers are tough. The best counter from what I have seen against them is a condition-built thief (DD). Dagger Storm as an Elite is a plus but it isn't the important part.

Mainly because teleporting, going invis and anything else still shows the original mesmer and him with bleeds on. I tend to only keep 3 bleeds on him to drain him out for as long as possible. (In case he has condition-removers)

I am going to say that Guardians are painful to fight as well. Haven't found a suitable counter to them that works every time.

[Cry]

Balala, on 15 October 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

What block bug??
Its nearly impossible to kill a bunker guardian imo.

I may just have fought bad mesmers, hardly have a difficult time on 1v1.

Balala, on 15 October 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

What block bug??
Its nearly impossible to kill a bunker guardian imo.

I may just have fought bad mesmers, hardly have a difficult time on 1v1.

may not be the best vid for showing this but:

near the end of the vid look at the obscene amounts of blocking WHILE the guardian is attacking.

this effect can go on the guardians allies such as here:

This happens alot in competitive matches and it makes the guardian extremely op, even more so when adding what they can already do.

Edited by Cry, 16 October 2012 - 12:56 AM.