243 replies to this topic

[Jan Roman]

Thank you. The question is, if the crit based spec is viable in PvE... since I have no experience in GW2 PvE, I can't tell if playing condition build will get higher DPS or utility or survability. What does your experience tells you? I will gladly learn from more experienced players.

[The Shadow]

Jan Roman, on 01 January 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

Thank you. The question is, if the crit based spec is viable in PvE... since I have no experience in GW2 PvE, I can't tell if playing condition build will get higher DPS or utility or survability. What does your experience tells you? I will gladly learn from more experienced players.

Oh very very much so. I honestly don't think Condition spec on Thieves has much of a place in PvE. I think it's far more useful in WvW.

Crit-based builds are the way to go in PvE for many reasons, said reasons aside however; ultimately, you shouldn't waste the bleed cap on bleeds that are frankly sub-par to a Necro's providing an able Necro is there to apply them.

[TGIFrisbie]

I skimmed over it, paid special attention to your shortbow and d/d summary.  I had avoided this thread cause I figured it would end up being another "OMG S/P IS DA BOMB" type thang.  I was wrong.

This is a most excellent guide.  Thanks for posting, while I already agree with an utilize some of what is said, there are tips here on things I currently have not explored that I may find very useful in the future.

Well done.

[The Shadow]

TGIFrisbie, on 01 January 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

I skimmed over it, paid special attention to your shortbow and d/d summary.  I had avoided this thread cause I figured it would end up being another "OMG S/P IS DA BOMB" type thang.  I was wrong.

This is a most excellent guide.  Thanks for posting, while I already agree with an utilize some of what is said, there are tips here on things I currently have not explored that I may find very useful in the future.

Well done.

Thanks

[AlphaMagnum]

With the D/P build you advocate using black powder, autoattacking for the first few pulses, then Heartseeker into Stealth.  

Here's where I get confused, though.  Do you:

A ) Sit in Stealth for a few seconds, then Backstab before it runs out. Or...
B ) Backstab immediately.

The way I see it, ( A ) leaves you in Stealth to regenerate Initiative, but the time spent not attacking, likely 3 seconds out of every 10-12 or so, represents wasted Might stacks and lost damage.  On the other hand ( B ) completely wastes the Patience trait which you went into Shadow Arts to pick up, and to be honest there really isn't a Major trait I'd want in the Shadow Arts line other than Infusion of Shadows.  Yet not going that far takes away Might on Stealth.

How many stacks of Might can you maintain just from Hidden Assassin?  Are there any alternatives to Patience?

Edited by AlphaMagnum, 01 January 2013 - 06:54 PM.

[The Shadow]

AlphaMagnum, on 01 January 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

snip

It doesn't actually matter. Ideally you stay in stealth and backstab for the extra initiative from Patience but you don't have to. If the boss or mob is an annoying one to backstab, just do it when the opportunity arises and compensate for this by auto-attacking a bit more.

I agree with you entirely, I didn't want to invest so heavily in to Shadow Arts for this type of build but felt I had to in order to compensate for the lack of DA. It's sustainable the way it is, but even more so if you invest 5 points into Acrobatics instead, but then you lose out on the might, but arguably you could make the might back by different means.

I am not a massive fan of patience because as I'm sure you're aware, it isn't always practical to just sit in stealth and wait. As an alternative; Master of Deception. Really great if you have a few stealth-utilities on your bar.

Someone pm'd me in-game and said he was managing to get up to 17 might stacks via Sigil of Strength, I haven't personally tested out the sigil yet, but it seems like a 'mighty' good idea and I'm going to try it out in around 20 mins. If it works out well, I'd find it more beneficial to jut go 30/20/20 and use this sigil instead of investing the 5 points in Shadow.

As of right now with Power of Inertia and Hidden Assassin I find it easy to get around 5-7 stacks of might relatively passively. Arguably that could also be because I have currently equipped my Shortbow with a Sigil of Energy.

Anyway. I'm going to do some testing with the sigil, or you could try it out yourself, but there's a very high possibility of me changing the build round quite a bit. Depending on what the tests I do show. The question is; is the additional stacks of might more beneficial than 5% from Force or Sigil of Fire. So I'll probably edit this post and let you know in a few hours.

EDIT:

Sadly, after doing some testing, the Sigil of Strength didn't stack enough might reliably for it to be more beneficial than   a Sigil of Force... with D/P that is. However.... with Shortbow (providing mobs were around) it was very easy to stack and maintain 10 stacks just from the Sigil (doesn't include dodge or stealth).

So I think I'm going to stick with 30/25/15 as it is sustainable without losing out on too much DPS. I do think though, I'll replace the Sigil on my Bow for a Sigil of Strength for those AoE situations.

Edited by The Shadow, 01 January 2013 - 09:31 PM.

[iLag]

About my gear, you stated it was fine for a crit/condition build? Atm I have carrion jewelry but that set. Would it be cheaper to go for condition/survival or crit/condition? Or can I just run it as it is in anyway?

[The Shadow]

iLag, on 01 January 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

About my gear, you stated it was fine for a crit/condition build? Atm I have carrion jewelry but that set. Would it be cheaper to go for condition/survival or crit/condition? Or can I just run it as it is in anyway?

It'd be easier and cheaper to for full Carrion. The issue with mixing Carrion + Rabbid is you don't get enough precision from your Trinkets. That being said, you also get both Toughness and some Vitality which isn't a bad thing as you avoid DR. Just means you wont be proccing any sigils.

[iLag]

The Shadow, on 01 January 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

It'd be easier and cheaper to for full Carrion. The issue with mixing Carrion + Rabbid is you don't get enough precision from your Trinkets. That being said, you also get both Toughness and some Vitality which isn't a bad thing as you avoid DR. Just means you wont be proccing any sigils.

Ok cool guess I will keep this set for the time being and work my way for more carrion gear. And yea the main reason the karma set attracted me was due to the vitality and toughness it gave.

[Jan Roman]

Thank you for your advice and guide as well. I've tried shortbow today and I have to say - awful. It wil be perfect when there is a large group of enemies and I don't have an aggro, but I can't imagine using it for anything else. Is P/P (which is probably better for solo targets) viable now (after recent changes)?

So I will probably run crit D/D and an offhand ranged combination (SB, D/P, P/D or P/P). What kind of gear should I use? I will probably get Berserkers. Right now, I am wearing mostly green Invaders set as I was doing some WvW.

I have never in a dungeon in GW2 (however I have tons of gaming experience, from MMOs as well), do you have any tips or tricks? What would be the first dungeon to visit? Than you very much.

[iLag]

Jan Roman, on 01 January 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

Thank you for your advice and guide as well. I've tried shortbow today and I have to say - awful. It wil be perfect when there is a large group of enemies and I don't have an aggro, but I can't imagine using it for anything else. Is P/P (which is probably better for solo targets) viable now (after recent changes)?

So I will probably run crit D/D and an offhand ranged combination (SB, D/P, P/D or P/P). What kind of gear should I use? I will probably get Berserkers. Right now, I am wearing mostly green Invaders set as I was doing some WvW.

I have never in a dungeon in GW2 (however I have tons of gaming experience, from MMOs as well), do you have any tips or tricks? What would be the first dungeon to visit? Than you very much.

First dungeon to visit? I'd say story mode CM or AC. Very easy dungeons if you have a experienced player with you.

[Jan Roman]

Thank you. I have tons of experience with dungeons and raiding in World of Warcraft, but I expect GW2 dungeons to be quite different (considering the fact that there is no trinity and the combat system is different) so I would like to be prepared and don't ruin someones experience.

[The Shadow]

Jan Roman, on 03 January 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

Thank you. I have tons of experience with dungeons and raiding in World of Warcraft, but I expect GW2 dungeons to be quite different (considering the fact that there is no trinity and the combat system is different) so I would like to be prepared and don't ruin someones experience.

As Lag said, AC, CM, CoF are all good starter dungeons, the ones I'd avoid (for now) would be HOTW, CoE, SE and Arah. Performance in dungeons is going to have a lot to do with team composition and experience. If someone in the group knows the tips and tricks it'll make it a lot easier.

[AlphaMagnum]

New build idea:

0/30/15/25/0, as a variant on your 0/30/25/15/0 build.

Planning D/P most likely, and since I don't plan on staying Stealth much, Shadow Arts isn't worth a second Major trait.  I replace the damage lost from Hidden Killer by going all the way to Fluid Strikes in Acrobatics, picking up Quick Recovery on the way.  That way I get 10% additional damage at all times, which is way more than some Might stacks (or straight Power increases by going into DA).   Going for Vitality instead of Toughness is another personal choice, since the latter leads to more aggro while the former increases survivability just the same.

On a related note, I just made the switch from D/D condition damage to D/P power/precision at level 35, and it's been a helluva lot more fun for me.  Black Powder is absolutely nuts, and judicious use of Scorpion Wire is making previously challenging encounters a total breeze.  Having my Elite skill as an oh-shit button is also nice, which helps when I'm overwhelmed, though Black Powder does just as well since I permablind any melee range foes.

Edited by AlphaMagnum, 04 January 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[Jan Roman]

I have another question. While fighting a boss (single target, no complications), is it better to keep bleeds on him through Death Blossom or just Stealth -> Backstab -> let Revelaed pass -> repeat? I think it depends on thiefs build (condition/crit), but I would like to be sure. I now how to support my group and I would like to maximise my DPS.

[Nemhy]

How would you rate condition thief for dungeon play?

[The Shadow]

AlphaMagnum, on 04 January 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

New build idea:

0/30/15/25/0, as a variant on your 0/30/25/15/0 build.

Planning D/P most likely, and since I don't plan on staying Stealth much, Shadow Arts isn't worth a second Major trait.  I replace the damage lost from Hidden Killer by going all the way to Fluid Strikes in Acrobatics, picking up Quick Recovery on the way.  That way I get 10% additional damage at all times, which is way more than some Might stacks (or straight Power increases by going into DA).   Going for Vitality instead of Toughness is another personal choice, since the latter leads to more aggro while the former increases survivability just the same.

On a related note, I just made the switch from D/D condition damage to D/P power/precision at level 35, and it's been a helluva lot more fun for me.  Black Powder is absolutely nuts, and judicious use of Scorpion Wire is making previously challenging encounters a total breeze.  Having my Elite skill as an oh-shit button is also nice, which helps when I'm overwhelmed, though Black Powder does just as well since I permablind any melee range foes.

This is a very good variant. I think you're confusing Hidden Killer with Hidden Assassin though. The only reason I maintain that 25 in Shadow is more useful than Acro is the fact that you either lose out on Master of Deception or Infusion of Shadow which to me are both invaluable given the context of a build. I'm also of the opinion that active management trumps passive regeneration. I suppose that's all down to preference though.

I'm glad your finding it more fun in PvE with it though!

Jan Roman, on 04 January 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

I have another question. While fighting a boss (single target, no complications), is it better to keep bleeds on him through Death Blossom or just Stealth -> Backstab -> let Revelaed pass -> repeat? I think it depends on thiefs build (condition/crit), but I would like to be sure. I now how to support my group and I would like to maximise my DPS.

You are right; DB on a crit build is used for evasion only not for damage.

Nemhy, on 04 January 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

How would you rate condition thief for dungeon play?

It's going to depend on;

Party composition - No point running a Condition build as a Thief if there's a Mesmer and Conditionmancer in your party because bleed cap.

The instance - Is the instance so difficult that you really can't survive by going Crit build instead?

DPS/ Support - We don't have many ways to 'support' our team, that being said, we offer 'support' via massive single-target DPS. However.. a dead Thief does no DPS. If you feel that the increased survival by going condition spec outweighs the benefits of increased DPS from crit-build then sure, condition Thief is great.

I personally don't feel that way. Condition builds are much easier to play and a lot more forgiving. IMO they are better suited to WvW than PvE. Then again that is just my opinion.

[EonSpirit]

So I've been playing my thief a bit more and finding that with proper gear critical strikes tree really does do most to ease your fights.. doing just so much more damage that it doesn't get that hard to survive. On that note though, was wondering if anyone had really definitive statistics for how useful shadow protector and rejuvenation are because I was thinking of switching the deadly arts tree to the shadow arts tree, but it does bug me greatly that you can't do 30/30/15 so some of that would have to go, and I'm just wondering if those 2 traits are really worthwhile in terms of regen to offset probably going 20/30/20 and getting assassin's reward too?

Thing is, I really dislike the deadly arts traits but again some are really great with the crit tree, is the damage loss when not going DA really that noticeable? The other thing is.. how exactly does SoM work? Does it work more effectively with a higher healing power or simply dishing out more dmg? (as in, does it do a % of the dmg you do that makes dmg preferable to healing power)  This will also have to be a consideration for the build.. for now I'm just pumping critical strikes and finding it the most effective levelling allocation

[iLag]

So... I've switched back to crit after finding that cond damage was very weak comparably after a dozen or so dungeon runs. I'm not a big fan of Haste and I still question the Signet of Malice and my utilities are at the moment Hide In Shadows, Signet of Agility, Shadow Refuge and Shadow Step.  I chose hide in shadows so I can get more backstabs and crits in. But I'm confused about where I should go instead of signet of agility.

[Xystus]

Shadow,

I gave your D/P build a chance. I enjoyed it; something different that I don't see to many people play.

[The Shadow]

EonSpirit, on 04 January 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

So I've been playing my thief a bit more and finding that with proper gear critical strikes tree really does do most to ease your fights.. doing just so much more damage that it doesn't get that hard to survive. On that note though, was wondering if anyone had really definitive statistics for how useful shadow protector and rejuvenation are because I was thinking of switching the deadly arts tree to the shadow arts tree, but it does bug me greatly that you can't do 30/30/15 so some of that would have to go, and I'm just wondering if those 2 traits are really worthwhile in terms of regen to offset probably going 20/30/20 and getting assassin's reward too?

Thing is, I really dislike the deadly arts traits but again some are really great with the crit tree, is the damage loss when not going DA really that noticeable? The other thing is.. how exactly does SoM work? Does it work more effectively with a higher healing power or simply dishing out more dmg? (as in, does it do a % of the dmg you do that makes dmg preferable to healing power)  This will also have to be a consideration for the build.. for now I'm just pumping critical strikes and finding it the most effective levelling allocation

I invest in Shadow Arts as opposed to Deadly Arts when opting for D/P for a few reasons. Most note-worthy are; Infusion of Shadow, Master of Deception, Shadow's Rejuvenation (only in very condition-heavy instances) and Hidden Assassin. That and I don't miss any of the traits from Deadly Arts except for Exposed Weakness and Dagger Mastery.

If you're going to invest in Deadly Arts at all, there is no point going below 25. If you don't have 25 points to spare, the remainder of your points will be more useful elsewhere.

That being said.. I do not feel that Shadow Protector is ever useful. We don't have nearly enough ways to stealth allies for the trade-off to be a worthwhile one, IMO.

Is the damage difference between Deadly Arts and Shadow Arts notable? Yes, you lose out on 15% guaranteed damage as well as 250 Power. Most of the power can be won back via Hidden Assassin and Power of Inertia but you're still losing out on Dagger Mastery and Exposed Weakness. What you gain however is more invitiative management, the ability to blind tank, interrupt as well as innate survival via stats and D/P as opposed to D/D. In short, you sacrifice around 15% of your damage for utility, survivability and versatility.

Is it worth it? That will depend on the content. I use both builds I've posted in this thread on a daily basis.

iLag, on 04 January 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

So... I've switched back to crit after finding that cond damage was very weak comparably after a dozen or so dungeon runs. I'm not a big fan of Haste and I still question the Signet of Malice and my utilities are at the moment Hide In Shadows, Signet of Agility, Shadow Refuge and Shadow Step.  I chose hide in shadows so I can get more backstabs and crits in. But I'm confused about where I should go instead of signet of agility.

The build posted in the OP is still un-updated because I want people to treat it as a template for ideas as opposed to copying it utility for utility.

Signet of Malice is the heal I reserve for AoE, the rest of the time I will use Hide in Shadows or Withdraw. Always switch depending on content. As for utility I mostly use Shadow Refuge, Shadow Step and Signet of Shadows. But again, you're gunna wanna swap this stuff round based on the encounters.

Xystus, on 08 January 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

Shadow,

I gave your D/P build a chance. I enjoyed it; something different that I don't see to many people play.

Awesome! I'm glad you like it and find it useful

[Rachmani]

Wait... you spec into shadow arts for D/P but invest points in deadly arts for D/D?
Or did I miss something?
If so, could you share you're reasons?
D/P is in my opinion much more likely to autoattack during periods of BP "spam" so weakness on poison really shines. It also lacks a reliable stealth (depends on your groups combo fields ofc).
D/D on the other hand is (again, my experience) much better going in for CnD & a backstab, getting some distance, rinse and repeat. It also benefits the most from blind on stealth (which is really strong).

I personally love D/P, but I usually play something like 20/30/0/20/0 or sometimes even 15/30/0/25/0, though the latter is much more SB focused and I only use it in higher lvl fractals with groups I expect to wipe a bit ( ).

Edited by Rachmani, 09 January 2013 - 08:33 PM.

[The Shadow]

Rachmani, on 09 January 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

Wait... you spec into shadow arts for D/P but invest points in deadly arts for D/D?
Or did I miss something?
If so, could you share you're reasons?
D/P is in my opinion much more likely to autoattack during periods of BP "spam" so weakness on poison really shines. It also lacks a reliable stealth (depends on your groups combo fields ofc).
D/D on the other hand is (again, my experience) much better going in for CnD & a backstab, getting some distance, rinse and repeat. It also benefits the most from blind on stealth (which is really strong).

I personally love D/P, but I usually play something like 20/30/0/20/0 or sometimes even 15/30/0/25/0, though the latter is much more SB focused and I only use it in higher lvl fractals with groups I expect to wipe a bit ( ).

It's about capitalizing on strengths instead of compensating for weaknesses while accepting the premise that DPS is important and needs to be considered.

I trait into Deadly Arts for D/D to benefit from +250 Power, Sundering Strikes, Dagger Mastery and Exposed Weaknesses. That boosts your damage by around 25%. D/D is an offensive set that is very resource-friendly. Why forsake those main strengths?

The reason I'm happy to sacrifice Deadly Arts when switching to D/P is due to the fact that it is, by it's very nature, a more versatile defensive/ support based set that isn't quite so resource-friendly. Investing in Shadow Arts boosts D/P's potential as a defensive set while not losing too much in terms of DPS as the investment compensates for some of the DPS lost via Hidden Assassin.. but also because HS through BP combo now becomes something you can use relatively frequently and backstab.

I disagree that D/P isn't a reliable way to access stealth.

Basically.. You can benefit from Spamming BP as well as getting a free access to stealth (either by a team-mate or by yoursef) as well as being able to backstab all while maintaining a substantial amount of might passively to make up for the fact that you no longer have points invested in Deadly Arts.

Edited by The Shadow, 09 January 2013 - 09:12 PM.

[Rachmani]

The Shadow, on 09 January 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

It's about capitalizing on strengths instead of compensating for weaknesses while accepting the premise that DPS is important and needs to be considered.

I trait into Deadly Arts for D/D to benefit from +250 Power, Sundering Strikes, Dagger Mastery and Exposed Weaknesses. That boosts your damage by around 25%. D/D is an offensive set that is very resource-friendly. Why forsake those main strengths?

The reason I'm happy to sacrifice Deadly Arts when switching to D/P is due to the fact that it is, by it's very nature, a more versatile defensive/ support based set that isn't quite so resource-friendly. Investing in Shadow Arts boosts D/P's potential as a defensive set while not losing too much in terms of DPS as the investment compensates for some of the DPS lost via Hidden Assassin.. but also because HS through BP combo now becomes something you can use relatively frequently and backstab.

I disagree that D/P isn't a reliable way to access stealth.

Basically.. You can benefit from Spamming BP as well as getting a free access to stealth (either by a team-mate or by yoursef) as well as being able to backstab all while maintaining a substantial amount of might passively to make up for the fact that you no longer have points invested in Deadly Arts.

Actually, I'm all for capitalizing on strengths. This is in fact my point.
D/Ds strengths are by design, high damage (single target at least) & easy access to stealth - in fact, stealth is no option here but a requirement. Capitalizing its strengths would be boosting its damage & making the most of stealth it uses anyway. 20/30/20 in other words (with no points in acrobatics for might duration you can just leave out hidden assassin).

I disagree however when it comes to D/P being a defensive set. It is a versatile set, yes, even a tactical one, but it lacks evades (or blocks) to be called defensive set. If anything I'd say it is strong on dodges - but without traits, so is D/D. in terms of defense, all that seperates it from D/D is BP, which - as godly as it is - only helps you in melee range. You can still get shot from range (meaning you still have to dodge).
With that being said, it's true though, D/P can put points almost anywhere (maybe not trickery, but trickery is special anyway) and get at least something out of it. So putting points in Shadow Arts is certainly not a bad idea. It is however a limiting one "forcing" you to HS through BP to get the most out of your traits (more on that below).
In my opinion it therefore doesn't really play to D/Ps main strength: versatility. In order to be versatile, from my experience at least, you should have Quick recovery (every BP build, really). While it doesn't save you as much initiative as +2 initiative on stealth would (assuming HS as much as possible) it also doesn't limit yourself to a particular playstyle. It allows almost 100% BP uptime but also using BP & headshot together (or BP, then shadowshot a ranged mob). Deadly arts would be the generic/versatile addition here, not limiting your playstyle but with good synergies nontheless. As you said, dmg just is important. Deadly Arts also opens up synergies with SB (weakness on poison again) & P/P (quick recovery is really good with unload. Unload also has a rather good power scaling & you could skill another 5% unload damage - assuming you'd switch out D/P for unload, not SB).
Don't get me wrong. I like Shadow Arts, in fact I think it is vastly underrated (or at least was, until higher lvl fractals enforced a different thinking), i just don't see D/P benefiting so much from it, or at least not more than D/D.

P.S. On BP -> HS. As nice as it is, in my experience it's just not more than an option. It's nice to have, certainly welcome but also just rather unreliable. Bosses/enemies moving around but also multiple, layered combo fields make this strategy rather unreliable. Of course a leap finisher is great in general, though. As long as BP is the only field around it's fine, but as soon as elementalists or guardians come into play it gets tricky. Too tricky for my taste to invest 25 points in Shadow Arts at least.

Edited by Rachmani, 09 January 2013 - 10:40 PM.

[The Shadow]

Rachmani, on 09 January 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

snip

I think the main reason we build differently when considering D/D is due to the fact that I find the 15 points in Acrobatics to be an essential minimum. I don't see any potential gain (DPS/ Stealth or otherwise) as being intrinsically more valuable than the benefits we gain from Acrobatics. It's my absolute favorite tree. I realize however that that is just my personal preference. So I'm by no means diminishing the way you play D/D, (although I do think losing the 5 points in Deadly Arts for Exposed Weaknesses isn't a great idea), in fact it makes sense. I just can't see myself reverting to how I used to play D/D before I decided to forsake the points in Shadow Arts for Acrobatics.

As for D/P. If you use Black Powder carefully you don't get hit from range unless being hit by multiple mobs. Black Powder is a combo field but at the same time is also a physical projectile. So assuming you're fighting a single target (in most instances you will be) you'll be able to maintain blind while HS-ing through BP as well as Backstabbing. But of course you're absolutely right in that that wont work every time on every mb(s), hence the investment in Acrobatics (which is always a staple). It's because you're able to inflict Blindness (with realistically around 90% or so uptime) that makes me consider it to be a defensive set despite the fact that you lose the evasion you can get from other sets.

I think the main difference in our opinion here is the fact that, if you invest into Shadow Arts you feel compelled to Backstab via BP>HS combo. Similarly.. I feel compelled to focus on auto-attacking when investing in Deadly Arts and I agree it's a shame to lose the synergy it has with SB as it was one of the main reasons I opted for DA with D/D in the first place.. But the inherent issue with that is.. There are many bosses that you can't blind. So sitting there and auto-attacking isn't always an option..

However... This is the reason I consider it to be both versatile and defensive.. In stead of switching to SB or P/P and essentially dramatically lowering your DPS... You can move away in said instances (avoiding other combo fields to ensure stealth via finisher)... with D/P, HS through BP and then Shadow Shot > Backstab combo (will say more on this later) which is a 100% safe way to deal A LOT of damage... and the beauty of it is, with the investment in Shadow Arts, this burst of multiple skills all at once is relatively sustainable. At the same time you can blind tank and Backstab mobs/ bosses that aren't immune to blinds.

And that is why I don't worry so much about the loss of synergy with other sets. D/P is so versatile that realistically you don't really need to rely so much on other sets except for SB for extreme AoE situations.. But even then.. you can easily just BP > Daggerstorm and finish things off single-target-style.

I think that's something you either over-looked or didn't/ don't see the value of. I urge you to try D/P in the way that I just explained. I think you'd be  pleasantly surprised

The HS through BP to Shadow Shot Backstab combo isn't used very often because it's actually quite hard to pull off correctly. That and I'm not sure many Thieves actually know it exists... The timing of the Backstab after Shadow Shot has to be very precise. I mean you can actually Stealth then Steal and then Backstab even though you are no longer in stealth (another combo that most people don't know exist).. I'm not sure if this is a glitch tbh, all I know is that it can be done with good timing. The beauty of it is though.. It's a hell of a lot of cumulative damage in a very short window of time considering HS, Shadow Shot and Backstab all connect and some crit.

[Rachmani]

Reading through everything again I think we're somewhat talking past eachother, or do indeed have a different perception of the game.
Maybe it's that damn "fractals virus" (so to speak) that blurrs my vision for the rest of the game, I don't know. Maybe I should do some Arah or any other dungeon really and give it a try.
All the weaponset synergies in the world don't mean sh*t if you don't have to switch weapons, so... we'll see.
I doubt I'll do other dungeons in the near future, though . Not that fractals aren't becoming quite boring too.

Btw. I didn't know of that Shadowshot glitch/combo. I only know of that PvP Steal/CnD Combo, which should somewhat have the same effect - with a longer CD.

Edited by Rachmani, 10 January 2013 - 10:51 PM.

[Thorfinnr]

Hey Shadow and Minion...and everyone else...I was an avid reader of Minion's original post, and have found this post to be most informative as well as showing how the Thief has evolved since we got full release the short 5-ish months ago.

I'm looking for a Power/Crit for PvE, with some survivability. I have played Glass-cannons, and they are ok to start...but I really want to use the Thiefs mobility to deal out some AoE and also have the ability to get in, steal for some poison, lay in some bleeds and then get out and right back to SB rain of death.

Here's what I came up with...forgive me if its similar to anyone else, as I did not look at each build in the post.

http://gw2skills.net...IZRyhkEplFDOmFA

I typicall run D/D, but am very open to using D/P. I currently run D/D with P/P as secondary fairly effectively.(I'm level 45-ish) This would use Valkyrie armor for the added vitality, with Beserker accessories and jewels. I do use Ogre Runes in the template, just cause the Rock Dog can be cool and misdirect the mob's attention giving me a window to get out if need be. Plus the Power boost/Crit Damage boost/+4% damage overall is a nice mix and fits the style of the build well.

The traits are where I believe people will think I have lost my ever-lovin' mind...and that may be the case...but I think it will work. I see Hidden Killer and Executioner as interchangeable based on your style of play (using stealth a lot? Hidden Killer... not so much stealth? Executioner.)

The elite in the Build is Assassin's Guild, but could easily swap out to Dagger Storm. (I see this as situational/personal pref. I use Guild when I am running solo and Storm when I am in a group.)

All constructive input is welcome as well as posting of builds that have worked for you along the lines of power-crit(non-glass-cannon)...I have seen several Cond builds...but didn't see much discussion on Power/Crit. I am in no way claiming this is an "uber" build...but it seems to be effective, and it can be just plain fun to play, and I am looking forward to suggestions on tweaks to help make it better and keep it balanced.

Thanks to all for the help and input!

Edited by Thorfinnr, 11 January 2013 - 05:02 PM.

[The Shadow]

Thorfinnr, on 11 January 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

snip

I used to run a very similar build;

15/30/0/25/0

Which would achieve the same things except you'd get an extra 15% DPS from Dagger Mastery in Deadly Arts and Fluid Strikes in Acrobatics.

This would benefit you more-so than me because I don't actually use signets for Might (the duration simply isn't long enough and Signet active effects just aren't great either IMO also 7% from Sidestrike > 5 stacks of might, this is more suited to Burst builds in PvP). Since you do though, you'll benefit from the extra Boon Duration % from the further investment into Acrobatics.

The only thing I really have to say about your build other than what I've already mentioned is; I don't feel that Trickery is a viable trait-tree for Power/ Crit builds. Thrill of The Crime is great and all, but the up-time : cool-down ratio simply doesn't merit the investment when the points could be spent elsewhere to cheaply attain an extra 15% DPS. Also the passive benefits of investing into Trickery (Condition damage + Steal recharge) simply don't have any synergy with a Power/ Crit build.

Hope this helps

[Thorfinnr]

The Shadow, on 11 January 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

I used to run a very similar build;

15/30/0/25/0

Which would achieve the same things except you'd get an extra 15% DPS from Dagger Mastery in Deadly Arts and Fluid Strikes in Acrobatics.

This would benefit you more-so than me because I don't actually use signets for Might (the duration simply isn't long enough and Signet active effects just aren't great either IMO also 7% from Sidestrike > 5 stacks of might, this is more suited to Burst builds in PvP). Since you do though, you'll benefit from the extra Boon Duration % from the further investment into Acrobatics.

Have to have 20 in Deadly Arts to get Dagger Training...would have to give up Grandmaster in Crit Stirkes to get to 20/25/0/25/0  to get both Dag Training and Fluid Strikes. So, then would you go Furious Retaliation and Side Strike in Crit Strikes?

What would you suggest other than the 2 Sigs? I usually always use the Sig of Shadows for the speed buff, but would like to hear your other suggestions geared straight toward the Power/Crit side. Or, would you use the 2 Sigs, just forego using traits to get the Might?

The Shadow, on 11 January 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

The only thing I really have to say about your build other than what I've already mentioned is; I don't feel that Trickery is a viable trait-tree for Power/ Crit builds. Thrill of The Crime is great and all, but the up-time : cool-down ratio simply doesn't merit the investment when the points could be spent elsewhere to cheaply attain an extra 15% DPS. Also the passive benefits of investing into Trickery (Condition damage + Steal recharge) simply don't have any synergy with a Power/ Crit build.

Hope this helps

Indeed it does, and I have been considering a change like you suggest for a llittle bit...now still down in the lower levels, Stealing can make an imapct, at least from my play experience...but I can see in higher levels it not being the best trade-off.

Here's a revamped version...implementing a couple of the tweaks you mentioned on Traits. I kept the Sigs, but would gladly swap out Assassin's Sig for maybe Ambush or Shadow Refuge? The more the merrier...

http://gw2skills.net...IZRyhkEplFDOmFA

Great points...looking forward to hearing more ideas.

[The Shadow]

Thorfinnr, on 11 January 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

snip

LOL I can be an idiot sometimes! .

I just edited the build a bit:

http://gw2skills.net...IZRyhkEplFDOmFA

You don't wanna lose the 30 in Critical Strikes because you lose out on Crit Chance. But also Executioner is 20%<50% so yeah. That's a lot more than 5% from Dagger Mastery. Also you get 10% from Acrobatics as opposed to 5% +50 Power from Deadly Arts.

So I actually meant 15/30/0/25/0.

Furious Retaliation is great, but due to the 45 second cooldown, I found myself liking the 5% Precision converted to Vitality more. In the Acrobatics line, Assassin's Reward just isn't very good. Quick recovery is much better (essentially 20% faster initiative regeneration). Fleet Foot is "OK" but since most of your time as a Thief is spent strafing (slower than running forward) you don't actually benefit that much from it. As a result either Vigorous Recovery or Power of Inertia is probably a better option. As for Power Vs Vigorous it'll depend on the heal you're running but also on the instance you're in.

I changed your utility skills too. The movement speed signet is great, the active effect is a bit meh, only real use for it is in PvP when stomping.. but like I said, great for travelling. Shadow Refuge is great because it stacks like 11s stealth which is more than enough to Rez a downed team member or run away from a sticky situation or just use it for the regen. Fairly long cool down however, so Blinding Powder is worth considering too. Or indeed ambush trap (for solo PvE). Since D/D doesn't use much initiative, Shadow step is actually better than Roll for Initiative as it serves as condition removal as well as stun-break.