243 replies to this topic

[Vysander]

MazingerZ, on 20 December 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

I've been trying to get into S/, but I seriously dislike it automatically dictating 30 points in Critical Strikes to get Executioner.  It seems to not have a very dynamic play style that I've come to enjoy from playing D/ in PvE.

i find sword to be too clunky in general. Even though it has a built in shadow step, and flanking strike on S/D.

Daggers just feel so much more nimble.

[MazingerZ]

Vysander, on 20 December 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

i find sword to be too clunky in general. Even though it has a built in shadow step, and flanking strike on S/D.

Daggers just feel so much more nimble.

Yeah, since I had to upgrade when I grinded Chef to 80 on my Sylvari thief, I went with this:

P/D

http://www.gw2db.com...57|0|0|0|0|0|0|

[iLag]

What about smokescreen? Why is it not mentioned in your utility skills?

[The Shadow]

iLag, on 22 December 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

What about smokescreen? Why is it not mentioned in your utility skills?

I've honestly never liked the skill. I don't like walls in general. Always find them awkward to use.

I see the merit of it more in WvW where you can stack stealth as well as benefit from the obvious effects.

I should probably add it to the list of utilities seeing as the only reason I don't use it often is just down to personal preference

[Rachmani]

Smokescreen is quite good/probably mandatory in high lvl fractals. At least on certain maps and unless you run 2 guardians + mesmer.

[The Shadow]

Rachmani, on 23 December 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

Smokescreen is quite good/probably mandatory in high lvl fractals. At least on certain maps and unless you run 2 guardians + mesmer.

Ah, unfortunately I wouldn't know. I've only been repeating level 10 for ascended rings and I'm still finding it extremely easy. I look forward to the update though.

[Rachmani]

It's a slow process but the harder and harder hitting mobs alter your playstyle over the course of several levels.
So naturally there comes a point at which an absorb wall - like smokescreen - is less a convenience and more of a live-saver or at least encounter trivializer. Especially if you have enough of these effects to form a strategy around it (guardian, mesmer etc.). Almost every (dangerous) mob in the Asura fractal for example just happens to be ranged.

[Heart Collector]

Hey Shadow, I'd like your input on a conundrum of mine if possible BTW I tend to ramble so apologies in advance if this post becomes too big!

I'm max level on my Thief, duo-ing with my buddy (also a max level Thief). We don't do dungeons, we just enjoy the open world. He's going all out glass cannon backstab build, and I'm considering going more defensive and condition oriented than him so we can sort of cover for each others weaknesses, so to speak. But here's the thing: I'm very fond of the Critical Strikes tree and don't want to be relegated to LDB spam!

I exclusively use D/D and SB, I'm not too fond of the other weapon combos though I sometimes take up my dual pistols for variety. I like using all my dagger skills as consistently (and hopefully intelligently) as possible, so I'm loathe to sacrifice my critical stealth backstabs, especially as they're "safer" on precarious ledges and cliffsides. So far, the build I'm using is this one.

The idea behind it is to maintain my critical stealth backstabs, some extra condition damage and utility from the Trickery line (including steal improvements which I love) and also take advantage of Assassin's Reward in combination with Siggy of Malice - which I'm thoroughly enjoying and has saved my butt on multiple occasions. In addition, I make up for some lack of power through the flanking talents in Trickery and Crit Strikes and gain some extra vitality from the precision to vitality trait.

I'm using Signet of Malice for the self heals, Shadow Refuge (I'm never removing it from my bar, I love it!), Shadowstep for the condition removal/stun break, Signet of Shadows for the speed boost (the blind isn't bad either!) and Dagger Storm for obvious reasons of awesomeness.

Now I've found it to be quite adequate for the open world stuff (which is more or less exclusively what we're doing). In fact since he's a glass cannon he often finds himself downed whilst I'm still standing (or rather leaping all over the place!), even though his gear is better than mine. Maybe the more evasive and crazy playstyle suits me, I dunno

HOWEVER, looking at posts and builds from much better players than myself, I'm wondering whether I should change it? It's been working for me so far, but I'm getting the feeling that I may perform better using a "tried and tested by players like yourself" kind of build. What I like about my build - a sense of offensive and defensive balance - could very well be its weak point.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance!

QUICK EDIT: This is one of the many builds I've been experimenting with, I've been using it a lot as it's worked well enough so far for the open world.

Edited by Heart Collector, 24 December 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[The Shadow]

Heart Collector, on 24 December 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

Hey Shadow, I'd like your input on a conundrum of mine if possible BTW I tend to ramble so apologies in advance if this post becomes too big!

I'm max level on my Thief, duo-ing with my buddy (also a max level Thief). We don't do dungeons, we just enjoy the open world. He's going all out glass cannon backstab build, and I'm considering going more defensive and condition oriented than him so we can sort of cover for each others weaknesses, so to speak. But here's the thing: I'm very fond of the Critical Strikes tree and don't want to be relegated to LDB spam!

I exclusively use D/D and SB, I'm not too fond of the other weapon combos though I sometimes take up my dual pistols for variety. I like using all my dagger skills as consistently (and hopefully intelligently) as possible, so I'm loathe to sacrifice my critical stealth backstabs, especially as they're "safer" on precarious ledges and cliffsides. So far, the build I'm using is this one.

The idea behind it is to maintain my critical stealth backstabs, some extra condition damage and utility from the Trickery line (including steal improvements which I love) and also take advantage of Assassin's Reward in combination with Siggy of Malice - which I'm thoroughly enjoying and has saved my butt on multiple occasions. In addition, I make up for some lack of power through the flanking talents in Trickery and Crit Strikes and gain some extra vitality from the precision to vitality trait.

I'm using Signet of Malice for the self heals, Shadow Refuge (I'm never removing it from my bar, I love it!), Shadowstep for the condition removal/stun break, Signet of Shadows for the speed boost (the blind isn't bad either!) and Dagger Storm for obvious reasons of awesomeness.

Now I've found it to be quite adequate for the open world stuff (which is more or less exclusively what we're doing). In fact since he's a glass cannon he often finds himself downed whilst I'm still standing (or rather leaping all over the place!), even though his gear is better than mine. Maybe the more evasive and crazy playstyle suits me, I dunno

HOWEVER, looking at posts and builds from much better players than myself, I'm wondering whether I should change it? It's been working for me so far, but I'm getting the feeling that I may perform better using a "tried and tested by players like yourself" kind of build. What I like about my build - a sense of offensive and defensive balance - could very well be its weak point.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance!

QUICK EDIT: This is one of the many builds I've been experimenting with, I've been using it a lot as it's worked well enough so far for the open world.

Well personally I don't find open-world PvE content to be that difficult. Ergo maximum damage without losing too much utility is what I find preferable for such content.

That being said, you're looking to be slightly more resilient, I have a number of builds/ gear setups that sacrifice some damage to boast a stronger defense but not so much so that you feel as though you're doing significantly less damage. This is what I'd suggest providing you don't want to maintain Pow/ Crit as opposed to Condition;

1) Full Berserker Jewelry and Weapons (Power, Precision, Crit Damage)
2) Valkyrie Armor (Power, Vitality, Crit Damage)
3) Take runes that boost your Vitality + Precision/ Critical Damage
4) 30 Crit Strikes (take the trait 5% precision into Vitality)
5) Invest either 20-30 point in Shadow arts and your remaining points in Acrobatics. Not just to benefit from the Major trait choices but to benefit from the Minor traits, which inherently will boost your surviviability, as well as how this would influence your stat points (i.e. Vitality, Toughness boost just by investing in these trees). There's also alot of synergy between these trees. I.E Shadow Arts might upon entering Stealth, Acrobatics might upon dodge etc..
6) Lastly, and probably most importantly. Use D/P, black powder + D/ auto attack proccing Sigil of Fire makes you somewhat AoE and pretty damn invincible against normal mobs.

Edited by The Shadow, 24 December 2012 - 02:48 PM.

[Heart Collector]

The Shadow, on 24 December 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

Well personally I don't find open-world PvE content to be that difficult. Ergo maximum damage without losing too much utility is what I find preferable for such content.

That being said, you're looking to be slightly more resilient, I have a number of builds/ gear setups that sacrifice some damage to boast a stronger defense but not so much so that you feel as though you're doing significantly less damage. This is what I'd suggest providing you don't want to maintain Pow/ Crit as opposed to Condition;

1) Full Berserker Jewelry and Weapons (Power, Precision, Crit Damage)
2) Valkyrie Armor (Power, Vitality, Crit Damage)
3) Take runes that boost your Vitality + Precision/ Critical Damage
4) 30 Crit Strikes (take the trait 5% precision into Vitality)
5) Invest either 20-30 point in Shadow arts and your remaining points in Acrobatics. Not just to benefit from the Major trait choices but to benefit from the Minor traits, which inherently will boost your surviviability, as well as how this would influence your stat points (i.e. Vitality, Toughness boost just by investing in these trees). There's also alot of synergy between these trees. I.E Shadow Arts might upon entering Stealth, Acrobatics might upon dodge etc..
6) Lastly, and probably most importantly. Use D/P, black powder + D/ auto attack proccing Sigil of Fire makes you somewhat AoE and pretty damn invincible against normal mobs.

Hey, thanks for the prompt reply I neglected to ask about gearing up so your response was really helpful!

Yeah the open world content tends to be on the easy side, though sometimes you can have a brutal fight on your hands, e.g. the other day my buddy, a terrific Mesmer and I found ourselves 3-manning a champ in Malchor's Leap amid constant respawns (including vets ><) We won the fight though so it felt good!

I've been considering the D/P combination, and whilst I'm loathe to lose LDB (as it's a great source of Malice healing as well as just plain old fun to use) I will give it a try - I like that #4 interrupt and the #5 blind should be great for me. My buddy does have a hard time backstabbing when enemies are on me as I move around like crazy so I guess D/P would allow me to be more static in order for him to pull off his backstabs (I don't have this problem - maybe I've just practiced backstabbing on the move more, plus my keybinds + Naga could be giving me an advantage)

The one thing I don't like will be losing my initiative upon steal and extra initiative points - but I guess I can counter that using the ini regen traits. I may need to swap out Shadowstep for Blinding Powder to take advantage of the shadow arts tree, which would leave me without a condition remover - but that's easy to play around with I guess. Also with a bit of experience the pistol abilities should allow me to prevent the conditions being applied to me in the first place.

Thanks again mate!

[The Shadow]

Heart Collector, on 24 December 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

Hey, thanks for the prompt reply I neglected to ask about gearing up so your response was really helpful!

Yeah the open world content tends to be on the easy side, though sometimes you can have a brutal fight on your hands, e.g. the other day my buddy, a terrific Mesmer and I found ourselves 3-manning a champ in Malchor's Leap amid constant respawns (including vets ><) We won the fight though so it felt good!

I've been considering the D/P combination, and whilst I'm loathe to lose LDB (as it's a great source of Malice healing as well as just plain old fun to use) I will give it a try - I like that #4 interrupt and the #5 blind should be great for me. My buddy does have a hard time backstabbing when enemies are on me as I move around like crazy so I guess D/P would allow me to be more static in order for him to pull off his backstabs (I don't have this problem - maybe I've just practiced backstabbing on the move more, plus my keybinds + Naga could be giving me an advantage)

The one thing I don't like will be losing my initiative upon steal and extra initiative points - but I guess I can counter that using the ini regen traits. I may need to swap out Shadowstep for Blinding Powder to take advantage of the shadow arts tree, which would leave me without a condition remover - but that's easy to play around with I guess. Also with a bit of experience the pistol abilities should allow me to prevent the conditions being applied to me in the first place.

Thanks again mate!

Shadow Arts is great for regeneration of both Health and Initiative. I very rarely find the needto ever spec into Trickery. HS through BP and backstab as well. Co-ordinate your backstabs, if you're both in stealth, mobs will show their backs as you lose aggro.

[iLag]

Well before I saw this guide I had already put 15 points into Trickery which I am atm using as a substitute to Acrobatics. What do you think? Should I respec immediately because I may be too squishy or does it work for now?

[Minion]

iLag, on 27 December 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

Well before I saw this guide I had already put 15 points into Trickery which I am atm using as a substitute to Acrobatics. What do you think? Should I respec immediately because I may be too squishy or does it work for now?

You're not squishy if you don't use acrobatics, but the might+extra dodge is better than +3i pool and init on a 35s cd skill. You have several ways to avoid damage as a thief; cloak, ranged attacks (for baddies), dodge and evades.


Also, @Shadow; after playing with a similar setup for a while now with Hidden Killer, I decided to retry Executioner after getting precision-based runes (eagle; 4,7g each qq) and it's so much better. You end up dealing +25% damage when the enemy is under 50% health, with 61% or so crit chance and 98 crit damage (using full berzerk, full ruby jewels almost). I don't think the valkyrie armour is necessary when you can dodge so often AND use roll for initiative or Shadowstep or break aggro as easily as a thief can. You will deal higher DPS with autos and Cloak and Dagger since higher precision, too. precision>power in PvE.

In summary, executioner>Hidden Killer if precision is nurtured.

Edited by Minion, 27 December 2012 - 10:24 AM.

[The Shadow]

iLag, on 27 December 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

Well before I saw this guide I had already put 15 points into Trickery which I am atm using as a substitute to Acrobatics. What do you think? Should I respec immediately because I may be too squishy or does it work for now?

I don't think Trickery is worth it, the traits aren't better than those in Acrobatics but also you're investing points into condition damage which is utterly useless for a pow/crit build.

Minion, on 27 December 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

You're not squishy if you don't use acrobatics, but the might+extra dodge is better than +3i pool and init on a 35s cd skill. You have several ways to avoid damage as a thief; cloak, ranged attacks (for baddies), dodge and evades.


Also, @Shadow; after playing with a similar setup for a while now with Hidden Killer, I decided to retry Executioner after getting precision-based runes (eagle; 4,7g each qq) and it's so much better. You end up dealing +25% damage when the enemy is under 50% health, with 61% or so crit chance and 98 crit damage (using full berzerk, full ruby jewels almost). I don't think the valkyrie armour is necessary when you can dodge so often AND use roll for initiative or Shadowstep or break aggro as easily as a thief can. You will deal higher DPS with autos and Cloak and Dagger since higher precision, too. precision>power in PvE.

In summary, executioner>Hidden Killer if precision is nurtured.

I find myself opting towards Executioner recently purely because it works better with Shortbow.

I'm not sure about runes of the Eagle. I see your logic. The extra +5%<50% probably does compensate for the lack CD but is the extra precision worth it? Does it even amount to much seeing as you still get +10 of each stat from Divinity? Also you miss out on +60 for each other stat which isn't a massive deal but is still a bit of extra survival.

I keep my Valkyrie for WvW but if people need the extra survival in any content the option is always there

[Orpheo Lyra]

What did you use for Orr maps?

[The Shadow]

Orpheo Lyra, on 27 December 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

What did you use for Orr maps?

Shadow Refuge, bow #5 and auto-run?

o_O

[EonSpirit]

Hey guys,

Just wondering how viable is a build with no critical strikes at all? I see them as being somewhat of a holy grail around every thief discussion but I'm thinking for a more fun and balanced all-round build (pve/WvW) why not go more conditions? Now the thing is, this build has a lot of stuff I just love to have (stealth being longer, better dodges etc.) I just want to know, as a bit of a newbie, how viable and powerful it actually is?

So the build is 25/0/15/15/15 and the traits I'm sure about are dagger training, infusion of shadow and power of inertia, with probably thrill of the crime in there for a little steal boost..so not sure about the other deadly arts trait. The real reason I have all those 15's is that it seems to me that the free traits you get at lvl 15 of all 3 skills other than deadly arts are some of the best stuff on those trees. It also gives me a nice mix of power + condition damage AND duration and, well, the steal thing is nice I guess.. but the real reason I want 15 in trickery is the added initiative.

Now I realize there are some great traits in critical strikes that even relate to having a high initiative (the +10% dmg over 6 initiative I really miss the most when having 13 initiative already) but I'm just wondering if this build can offset the huge loss of dps through virtually no critting by being pretty solid with power and conditions AND by actually being fairly tanky (vitality healing power toughness AND stealth)?

What do you guys think? Good? Bad? Terrible? And also what would the suggested weapons be? Dagger/dagger mostly?

[Minion]

The Shadow, on 27 December 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

I'm not sure about runes of the Eagle. I see your logic. The extra +5%<50% probably does compensate for the lack CD but is the extra precision worth it? Does it even amount to much seeing as you still get +10 of each stat from Divinity? Also you miss out on +60 for each other stat which isn't a massive deal but is still a bit of extra survival.

I keep my Valkyrie for WvW but if people need the extra survival in any content the option is always there

The problem with Divinity is just that; the spread is bad. You lose out on higher power/precision/crit damage for some measly defensive attributes which really don't counter that loss (because you don't need it. Especially if you use valkyrie armour) Also, it would be nice to have a set of Knights or Valkyrie armour for days when I'm feeling too lazy to dodge...

[Rachmani]

You don't lose any crit damage. It's still 2% per rune for a total of 12% with 6 runes.
Eagle vs. Divinity would be:
105 precision & 5% more damage on targets below 50% hp (better than 2.5% more overall damage with D/D due to heartseeker)
vs
60 power, 4% critdamage, 60 toughness, 60 vitality, 60 healing power, 60 condition damage

In general I'd say Runes of Divinity get better the more of them you have, as the "secondary stats" (in thief terms: toughness, vitality, healing power, maybe condition damage) slowly start to add up and essentially become meaningful at some point.
Runes of Divinity are hybrids with all the advantages and disadvantages that come with being a hybrid.
This being said I have the feeling that stacking divinity items (or trinity or whatever they're called) will at some point amass so many more stat point that you'll notice the difference. Right now there are only 4 items & Divinity runes - but even they start to add up.

[The Shadow]

Rachmani, on 28 December 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

You don't lose any crit damage. It's still 2% per rune for a total of 12% with 6 runes.
Eagle vs. Divinity would be:
105 precision & 5% more damage on targets below 50% hp (better than 2.5% more overall damage with D/D due to heartseeker)
vs
60 power, 4% critdamage, 60 toughness, 60 vitality, 60 healing power, 60 condition damage

In general I'd say Runes of Divinity get better the more of them you have, as the "secondary stats" (in thief terms: toughness, vitality, healing power, maybe condition damage) slowly start to add up and essentially become meaningful at some point.
Runes of Divinity are hybrids with all the advantages and disadvantages that come with being a hybrid.
This being said I have the feeling that stacking divinity items (or trinity or whatever they're called) will at some point amass so many more stat point that you'll notice the difference. Right now there are only 4 items & Divinity runes - but even they start to add up.

Is losing +60 in every start except for precision worth the additional +45 precision? It just seems that either way the difference would be too small to even notice.

I'll do some dummy testing though.

EonSpirit, on 28 December 2012 - 02:58 AM, said:

Hey guys,

Just wondering how viable is a build with no critical strikes at all? I see them as being somewhat of a holy grail around every thief discussion but I'm thinking for a more fun and balanced all-round build (pve/WvW) why not go more conditions? Now the thing is, this build has a lot of stuff I just love to have (stealth being longer, better dodges etc.) I just want to know, as a bit of a newbie, how viable and powerful it actually is?

So the build is 25/0/15/15/15 and the traits I'm sure about are dagger training, infusion of shadow and power of inertia, with probably thrill of the crime in there for a little steal boost..so not sure about the other deadly arts trait. The real reason I have all those 15's is that it seems to me that the free traits you get at lvl 15 of all 3 skills other than deadly arts are some of the best stuff on those trees. It also gives me a nice mix of power + condition damage AND duration and, well, the steal thing is nice I guess.. but the real reason I want 15 in trickery is the added initiative.

Now I realize there are some great traits in critical strikes that even relate to having a high initiative (the +10% dmg over 6 initiative I really miss the most when having 13 initiative already) but I'm just wondering if this build can offset the huge loss of dps through virtually no critting by being pretty solid with power and conditions AND by actually being fairly tanky (vitality healing power toughness AND stealth)?

What do you guys think? Good? Bad? Terrible? And also what would the suggested weapons be? Dagger/dagger mostly?

There are plenty of Condition/ Survival builds that have 0 points in Crit Strikes.

There are no viable Power/ Crit builds that have 0 points in Crit Strikes though.

Condition builds usually invest 30 points into Shadow Arts. The rest of the points depend on the weapon set and utility skills you opt for. The two most popular choices are P/D or D/D. With P/D you don't need the extra initiative so I wouldn't suggest going 15 into Trickery. You should do with D/D though. If you want to go for a leeching venoms build you'd need to invest at least 20 into Deadly Arts for the 20% recharge. The rest of your points should go into Acrobatics.

Your build in particular, I feel, spreads stats too thin. You didn't mention which weapon set it's designed for or what gear you'd use. I'm assuming D/D though, probably without venoms but lots of utility stealth instead, hopefully with a stun-breaker, if so, I don't see your investment into Deadly Arts as being justified. Points would be better spent maxing Shadow Arts for the regeneration in stealth or in Acrobatics.

As for gear you'd probably wanna go for full Carrion with three runes of Bleed duration + Condition damage. If you opt for prec, tough, cond though I'd suggest runes of the Undead.

It's also worth noting Pistol bleeds have a shorter duration than Dagger bleeds. So the bleed duration runes work better with Pistol too. Bleed duration is the best way to increase condition DPS unless you have alot of toughness and 5% cond damage trumps duration. But then you may struggle getting many of stacks with P/D.

Edited by The Shadow, 28 December 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[EonSpirit]

Ah, okay, thanks for the insightful reply. To be honest, I was looking for advice on which weapons to use, and as for the deadly arts, I guess the largest part of it was because of the dagger damage increase and +10% to damage vs conditions, but I guess you do either go all out condition or not, in which case 25DA/15T is nowhere near as powerful as 30/30. So why do condition builds go for shadow arts so much? Toughness or all the bonuses while in the shadow? Looking at purely the stats and traits it seems to me DA and Trickery are condition and power focused shadow arts seems purely survival based? I guess my other question is, would you say a build like your one that foregoes all shadow arts can be just as survivable thanks to extra vitality and dodges or is it easier to play a shadow arts build? And finally how would you rate signet use vs side strike? What are the best signets to use and are they worth it?

[The Shadow]

EonSpirit, on 28 December 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Ah, okay, thanks for the insightful reply. To be honest, I was looking for advice on which weapons to use, and as for the deadly arts, I guess the largest part of it was because of the dagger damage increase and +10% to damage vs conditions, but I guess you do either go all out condition or not, in which case 25DA/15T is nowhere near as powerful as 30/30. So why do condition builds go for shadow arts so much? Toughness or all the bonuses while in the shadow? Looking at purely the stats and traits it seems to me DA and Trickery are condition and power focused shadow arts seems purely survival based? I guess my other question is, would you say a build like your one that foregoes all shadow arts can be just as survivable thanks to extra vitality and dodges or is it easier to play a shadow arts build? And finally how would you rate signet use vs side strike? What are the best signets to use and are they worth it?

It's more about, survival builds going for condition damage (instead of power) as opposed to condition builds going for survival if you see what I mean. This stems from stat options as well as Anet's intentions. It seems they designed Condition Damage to be for battles of attrition as opposed to burst and that is reflected in the way the stats are distributed.

Long story short; Condition damage gear gives you more bang for your buck in terms of both DPS and more significantly survival. You don't need to sacrifice or diminish one or the other to be viable. Power/ Crit builds need Power/ Precision/ Crit Damage but then where does your survivability com from statistically speaking? You'd have to sacrifice Precision or Critical damage, that diminishes your DPS greatl y but doesn't necessarily compensate you with a ton of survival. The argument is that survivability comes from dodging, acrobatics, certain traits and damn right it does and that's all well and good, but....you wont have 20k hp, constant regeneration, constant condition removal, constant resource control etc etc etc.. Some of those elements, sure, but not all of them. You can dodge with a condition build too lol

A glass-cannon build wont keep you alive as much as one that is designed to keep you alive. The reason to opt for one or for the other is based on the content you want to do.

In PvE, low-end, high-end, bits inbetween you can complete content fairly easily while being a Glass Cannon or a veritable vit-tank. Which one is better? The one that's more efficient. Which way is more efficient? The one that kills shit quicker. Which one kills shit quicker? The one that does more damage, providing you can stay alive. So if you know how to dodge and make good use of your utility as well as built-in evasion then.. glass cannon is for you. If you're not such an agile player, have latency issues, are a bit too lazy to dodge and generally just want an easy and forgiving time then you'd probably want to opt for a condition build.

Also condition builds suck at destroying objects and GW2 is full of annoying objects to kill/ break.

However... In WvW, Thief game-play is in a whole different donkey and honestly I would think anyone who runs full glass into a zerg a bit of a retard. So.. don't think I'm diminishing the use of condition builds.

I don't use signet builds, I think they are reserved for bad-basilisk-cheese-thieves. I prefer signet passives to actives. I only use the move speed one for travel time. So deffo side-strike (but not for a condition build).

As for D/D v P/D both are good. D/D is obviously PBAoE whereas P/D isn't. So that'll probably be the defining factor in PvE. For WvW it's down to preference. You're pretty damn survivable with either thanks to stealth but also built-in evasion on both sets. I prefer D/D for 1/2v1s but prefer P/D for 3/4v1s. D/D stacks bleeds faster, P/D is more about stealth and mind-games. That's my only reasoning there.

Edited by The Shadow, 28 December 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[EonSpirit]

Cool, thanks a lot.. guess I'll just see how in the first 20 levels, if I find I cannot cut it with dodging and weaving around it's probably a condition/survival build for me Acrobatics is nice though, seems bloody useful to dip into on any build, so it's a great choice between lvl 10 and 20 until you can decide what else to focus on

[Rachmani]

The Shadow, on 28 December 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

Is losing +60 in every start except for precision worth the additional +45 precision? It just seems that either way the difference would be too small to even notice.

It's 105 additional precision, not 45. I already subtracted the 60 you'd also get from divinity runes. The other way round I also subtracted crit damage.
In terms of pure damage runes, I'd rather go for Runes of the Scholar or Ruby jewels though.
However, as I said the massive overall stat gain might/will at some point just add up and become relevant.
Everyone has to decide for him/herself when that point is reached.
Personally I put Divinity runes in my soldier armor (here they just add damage to my otherwise defensive setup) & Ruby Jewels in my berserker armor (that way I'm also free to mix both as I have no set bonus I might otherwise lose) and mix them just as it pleases me. But I also have both triforge rings & berserker rings to switch around.

Edited by Rachmani, 28 December 2012 - 05:42 PM.

[Engel Jorgenson]

I use every weapon set (except pistol main hand) depending of the situation in both PvE and WvW scenes. Running a glass canon type build (20/30/0/20/0 usually). Like Shadow said, it's very risky to run a spec like that in WvW but it really depends of your gameplay and role. Sure, I often go down but I do kill way more people and it's the gameplay I like the most. This game is a matter of reactions/dodges and positional strategy. Nothing with the thief is designed to stay unchanged forever and I switch traits and utilities several times in an hour depending of the situation. I always carry 2 sets of armor/jewels in my bag and switch them accordingly to the encounter I'm going to fight. My more convenient set is full berserk with D/D equipped but I find myself using S/D too if my target uses a lot of conditions. First thing to keep in mind: while you evade you are invulnerable. This thread is very well done and is useful for everybody from newcomer to experiemented player but outside the common skeleton builds that commonly work, the best build is the build you're comfortable with. I've learned a lot from this community since the early beta phases but, if you want a tip (since I do believe it's a basis as a thief): be careful to stay mobile in every situation, your worst enemy are the skills impairing your moves. The thief is by nature fragile, your weapon sets choices are just a matter of circumstances and preferences, as of your utility skills. Very generic post I do agree, but you got nothing to focus on because of the versatility of this game and encounters.

Character: Astrid Ferguson
Server: Vizunah Square

Edited by Engel Jorgenson, 28 December 2012 - 06:10 PM.

[EonSpirit]

So how about this build for a condition build? Using D/D and shortbow primarily.. or, more precisely, using dual daggers and stealth almost exclusively but having a shortbow for aoe in pve and, well, just versatility Carrion gear, of course.

http://gw2.luna-atra...0f0858c8n8p8ujp

I take it this build sacrifices a fair bit of dmg potential for versatility and survivability but I just wonder if 15 in trickery and no points in power are enough to do respectable damage in dungeons and pve? For pvp I imagine all this stealthy/survivory cheese would just make fights drag out but still be plausible and of course much less dangerous.

Now the one skill point that bugs me is the master shadow arts trait.. I swear, it seems that almost all choices are great.. I put the shortbow dmg there precisely cause I wanted to ask how good the others are before commiting - shadow's embrace seems neat but it only would ever shine with stacking shadow refuge, right? Otherwise, the one condition per stealth doesn't seem that great tbh.

Then there is one I really need more info on - shadow protector - is it any good? I mean, sure, nowhere near as good as rejuvenation but it could potentially mean seriously big heals when combined with it + the regen lasts longer than stealth. Then there is shadow pulse and cloaked in shadow - I'd be stacking mad bleeds with this build but 30 second cooldown seems meh.. as for cloaked in shadow - does that blindness really pay off? Because it's only 5 seconds and chances are mobs/players will hit me as I'm stealthing anyway making it useless - or will they? IF not, destealthing after 3 seconds still gives some great potential for mobs to miss you which is great. Then there is patience.. is it any good? Not that I need more initiative but if the regen is good that'd make for some more epic skill spams. I guess only leeching venoms and master of deception aren't that good as I'm not going into power and, well, meh for deception.

The other question I wanted to ask.. is assassin's reward worth it? The key point here being cloak&dagger of course. With all the silly big healing power from shadow arts + the two passive heals it would mean 4x300 base healing power (at 30 Shadow Arts) every time I use it, THEN, during the stealth I'd get 2 initiative points back (making it cost only 2 effectively) AND healing from the two shadow traits.. seems pretty incredible, but I'm not exactly sure this is precisely how it would work

Oh finally, on this kind of build, would you say withdraw is the best healing skill? And if so maybe throw in vigorous healing for even more dmg avoiding potential? I don't suppose anything reduces withdraw's 15 sec cd but even so that's pretty great. Then again, if using shortbow at the time, hide in shadows is a pretty great crutch too.. hmmmm.

Or should I suck it up and leave acrobatics completely out of it? I think the loss of such great healing potential and mobility, not to mention better boons and more health isn't worth the added dmg and tbh fluid strikes seems just as easy to proc as the 25 pt deadly arts trait..then again, there's all the poison synergy but meh, dunno, that all feels a bit cheap, though I suppose if I went that route I'd get leeching venoms too to make up for losing assassin's reward. Ah, choices Just proof how well ANet designed this class, I guess.

Edited by EonSpirit, 29 December 2012 - 05:41 AM.

[iLag]

For your traits do you purpose fury or the signets and 5 might? this is for t1 crit. Also for deadly arts if you are not running daggers what should your t2 be.

[The Shadow]

EonSpirit, on 29 December 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

snip

Quite confused with your post, it looks like you've posted my build template from the OP and are asking how it'd do as a Condition build but then mention Shadow Arts errrm xD. I'll try my best to reply though. As for the build you linked; It's not a condition build it's full Power/ Crit. As such it uses full Berserker's not Carrion. The purpose of 25/30/0/15/0 is actually to maintain steadily-high DPS while being able to counter-act the inherent fragility of the build by dodging.

As for the Carrion Condition/ Survival build what you have to appreciate is that the DPS comes entirely from condition damage so points in Power wouldn't be that beneficial to you.

As for the traits you should opt for, they depend on the situation. I decided to post an example skeleton build to better explain things.

http://gw2.luna-atra...n8p8u969n9ojcjp

Ok so the idea is; you wanna stack a lot of potent bleeds and keep stacking them while maintaining survivability via mobility, built-in evasion, Stealth, inherent tank-iness from Carrion stats as well as from the investment in Shadow Arts and resource management.

This is achieved by using D/D and subsequently spamming (Leaping) Death Blossom (which is a built-in evade too). Given that you want to be able to maintain spammage of LDB for some length of time, you have to consider how you can make this feasible. Resource management is the highlight of this build. It's achieved by activating Stealth. Since you wont be using CnD you have to attain Stealth and subsequently initiative via different ways, luckily there are plenty and with the addition of the Master of Deception trait, infusion of shadow, potentially Patience and maybe even Quick Recovery... you can pretty much afford to go wild.

I left certain trait options open because those are the ones you'll want to change based on situation:

Assasin's Reward isn't great, but I don't see a better trait for this type of build and don't see where 5 points would be of use anywhere else, Shadow's Rejuvenation is GREAT, but depending on the content you're facing you may be fine with sacrificing some healing for more resource management.

Few other points that are note-worthy. Where this build lacks in Cond damage via Trickery it makes up for it very passively by the amount of might you can stack upon entering stealth as well as by dodging, things that you will do very naturally.

The damage comes from spamming LDB, the traits you pick make this both possible and sustainable. That's why I opted for them as opposed to going straight out for damage.

If you want more damage while forsaking some survivability you could go down the rabid route.

If you want more damage while literally forsaking almost all your survival (I don't suggest this)... there is always Rampager's.

Would I recommend the Condition/ Survival build I linked for PvE? Honestly, not really, it's probably better suited to, as you noted, PvP/ WvW not because it wouldn't work in PvE, but purely because my stance on PvE builds is: Power > Condition as well as Efficiency > Safety. But since you want a condition build that is more forgiving, the build I linked is probably going to give you the best bang for your buck, I hope.

iLag, on 29 December 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

For your traits do you purpose fury or the signets and 5 might? this is for t1 crit. Also for deadly arts if you are not running daggers what should your t2 be.

I only ever use the move-speed signet so the Signet trait wouldn't be that beneficial to me. I also never really activate said signet, I just keep it for shortened travel-time.

The 2nd tier will depend on build and weapon set, There's no staple trait. The ones I like to fill this slot most are:

Critical Haste (Better suited to Sword than Dagger IMO), Combo Crit Chance (if LDB), Practiced Tolerance (if in need of survival) and Side Strike (one I use most often).

Edited by The Shadow, 29 December 2012 - 07:43 AM.

[EonSpirit]

Oh wow, sorry.. I have no idea why your post got quoted.. I was making one of my own and it had a very similar build to what you posted, except 15 trickery and 25 acrobatics cause I really liked the +10% dmg that you could always get by dodging quickly. The differences between your post and mine were also having the +5% flanking damage since I'd do a lot of de-stealth backstabs, but I do suppose if you go that much into trickey (20 pts) you might as well get the two steal-related traits. Also, for the shadow tree, master of deception is best to pair with the initiative-regaining treat, then? That was my biggest question really as it seems that there are a -lot- of good choices there.  Finally, perhaps fleet shadow isn't a bad choice if canning assassin's reward so you can position yourself better for backstabs? Or is it not really worth it worrying much about backstabs as you don't go for burst damage anyway?


Cool, thanks a lot, though really sorry I messed up that copy/paste you would have had a much clearer idea of what I was doing..

[The Shadow]

EonSpirit, on 29 December 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

Oh wow, sorry.. I have no idea why your post got quoted.. I was making one of my own and it had a very similar build to what you posted, except 15 trickery and 25 acrobatics cause I really liked the +10% dmg that you could always get by dodging quickly. The differences between your post and mine were also having the +5% flanking damage since I'd do a lot of de-stealth backstabs, but I do suppose if you go that much into trickey (20 pts) you might as well get the two steal-related traits. Also, for the shadow tree, master of deception is best to pair with the initiative-regaining treat, then? That was my biggest question really as it seems that there are a -lot- of good choices there.  Finally, perhaps fleet shadow isn't a bad choice if canning assassin's reward so you can position yourself better for backstabs? Or is it not really worth it worrying much about backstabs as you don't go for burst damage anyway?


Cool, thanks a lot, though really sorry I messed up that copy/paste you would have had a much clearer idea of what I was doing..

There's not much point in flanking damage/ backstabbing. All your DPS comes from LDB