31 replies to this topic

[Wolfdude]

There's that one NPC that says "Don't trust furless races!" They seem to be just tolerant towards races not human.

But then after playing some more it seems like charr and norn get along just fine (they seem to be more like those people normally don't like each other but the more they get into fights they soon like each other). And the asura and charr are a bit more than just tolerant to each other as long as technology is involved.

I wonder what do the charr think of the tree people.

[Esorono Osuiger]

They think they would make a nice salad.

[Konig Des Todes]

Charr typically tend to value one's worth on the battlefield. They aren't xenophobic (eitheri n general or to a specific race) - there's just a lot of historical feud between them and humans.

Charr mostly seem to view sylvari as untested - and thus there are generally mixed thoughts on them. Some call them talking weeds, others value them as allies (mostly those in the Orders for the later).

Charr distrust asura only because of the asura's heavy dependence on magic - their distrust of magic coming from their enslavement by the Flame Legion. They aren't keen to dredge or ogres, but that's because they're invaders.

[Wolfdude]

Konig Des Todes, on 16 September 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

Charr typically tend to value one's worth on the battlefield. They aren't xenophobic (eitheri n general or to a specific race) - there's just a lot of historical feud between them and humans.

Charr mostly seem to view sylvari as untested - and thus there are generally mixed thoughts on them. Some call them talking weeds, others value them as allies (mostly those in the Orders for the later).

Charr distrust asura only because of the asura's heavy dependence on magic - their distrust of magic coming from their enslavement by the Flame Legion. They aren't keen to dredge or ogres, but that's because they're invaders.

Iron Legion seem to enjoy asura company at least whenever inventing or technology is concerned. Similarly it seems asuras have grudging respect towards charr especially the Iron Legion.

[Konig Des Todes]

You clearly didn't see that the asura gate in the Black Citadel is on a suspended bridge wired to explode.

[Problematique]

Maybe, but hating things isn't always a bad thing.

[aop]

Charr, those silly sources of Fur Squares.

[draxynnic]

Like many things, I think it depends on the individual. There are charr who are generally bigoted towards non-charr, specifically towards a particular race, and others that only care about someone's worth as an individual and don't give two hoots about the question of race. There may be a higher incidence of bigotry than sylvari, norn and possibly humans because of the natural aggressiveness and territoriality of charr, but the charr have got very good at controlling and channeling that impulse, so most probably save it for their actual enemies rather than their allies who happen to be non-charr.

[Bahadur]

Konig Des Todes, on 16 September 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

You clearly didn't see that the asura gate in the Black Citadel is on a suspended bridge wired to explode.

I think we can call that 'healthy scepticism'

Don't the Charr have a mutual respect for the Norn though? Something about a small battle that happened on the borders between ascalon and shiverpeaks...The norn held a defensive line against the Charr. The charr sent, what they thought, would do the do and get rid of them, but the Norn absolutely destroyed the attackers that were sent, and even though the Charr could of sent more to take them out, they decided not to as they garnered a lot of respect for the Norn from their actions.

[draxynnic]

Largely. The impression I get is that the initial forays into norn territory were reconnaissance and raids intended to test the norn strength rather than a serious invasion attempt - the Movement talks about sending warbands rather than armies, and even a large warband is a relatively small unit. What they found was a race that was too strong enough not to be trivially defeated, but which never launched a serious counterattack in return and thus was not a threat. Likely the charr leaders at the time intended to deal with the norn once other, more important foes were dealt with, but neighbours who aren't fighting have a tendency to start talking, trading, and hanging out drinking together instead, and by the time the charr could theoretically spare the effort to assault a race that posed no threat to them, the charr-norn friendship was well established.

Of course, that doesn't mean that individual charr can't have a dislike for norn - or the charr referred to in the OP might not count the norn as furless (after all, they have fur some of the time!).

Edited by draxynnic, 16 September 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[Domynic]

Konig Des Todes, on 16 September 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

You clearly didn't see that the asura gate in the Black Citadel is on a suspended bridge wired to explode.

I'm no fan of the charr, but that's simply sensible.

It's a bad omen that the humans think it's a great idea to put asura gates in the middle of their city, one right outside the palace. DR's my favorite city, but that just baffles me every time. Even the charr could've put their gate further from the um... Sphere thingum. But the bridge and explosives and actual guards is simply just forward thinking.

The Ebonhawke zone and the one above it is just a charr/human love fest. At lot of grudging respect coming from the charr and the fact that the entire zone was ceded over to Ebonhawke says a lot.

[DessieDoo]

Esorono Osuiger, on 16 September 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

They think they would make a nice salad.

Salads are for lesser races!

Besides, look at their teeth!  I mean, they'd be chewing that lettuce for hours, man.

Edited by draxynnic, 17 September 2012 - 03:33 PM.
Adjusted font size for readability

[draxynnic]

Domynic, on 16 September 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

I'm no fan of the charr, but that's simply sensible.

It's a bad omen that the humans think it's a great idea to put asura gates in the middle of their city, one right outside the palace. DR's my favorite city, but that just baffles me every time. Even the charr could've put their gate further from the um... Sphere thingum. But the bridge and explosives and actual guards is simply just forward thinking.

The Ebonhawke zone and the one above it is just a charr/human love fest. At lot of grudging respect coming from the charr and the fact that the entire zone was ceded over to Ebonhawke says a lot.

Yeah, I must say I was expecting them to be inside some sort of inward-pointing fortification as well. Now, modern asura gates require the receiving gate to actively accept the connection, so a Stargate-esque (or EOTN-esque) scenario of invasion through a gate is unlikely without an inside collaborator - however, the weak spot in the theory is that all you'd need to do is subvert the local asura gate engineer.

The ceding of the Fields of Ruin strikes me as a matter of practicality - the Dragonbrand makes it pretty difficult to supply anything on the opposite side of it except by gate, and that gate is in Ebonhawke. The charr probably figure that if humans want the land, then humans defending it means charr don't have to, and if the war does resume the charr will probably just sweep aside anything outside the Ebonhawke fortifications anyway.

There may also be a certain element of extending the olive branch involved. The charr clearly won the war, but giving Ebonhawke/Ascalon something beyond the limits of the walls means they're more likely to be happy with what they're given rather than wanting to take more by force.

[Wolfdude]

Also what about the charr living in Lion's Arch? I thought they aren't allowed to live there. And I thought cubs were supposed to be in a fahrar, but you see them there without a warband even!

And I just dawwed at a random NPC discussion of a charr cub and a human girl - they are bffs and they want to join Ash Legion and want to become tribunes to unite both races. There's also Commander Batista (human) being so chummy with her Legionnaire.

But yeah I think norn-charr are far more common. Your character even has a norn "uncle"! Hahahahah!

[draxynnic]

Officially, there are some charr that are stationed in Lion's Arch by the legions for various reasons - some of which may be commercial (after all, the charr run their entire economy like a military, so a "warband" that has a few members that show a special talent for appraisal and negotiation might be assigned to merchant duty, with the rest of the warband serving as guards). However, I'll bet there are also charr in Lion's Arch that went AWOL to deliberately break from charr society, part of which may be raising their cubs themselves rather than at a fahrar.

[Xynth22]

Konig Des Todes, on 16 September 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

You clearly didn't see that the asura gate in the Black Citadel is on a suspended bridge wired to explode.

Omg I need to go see this now, lol.

[Augrelle]

Konig Des Todes, on 16 September 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

You clearly didn't see that the asura gate in the Black Citadel is on a suspended bridge wired to explode.

I think that deals more with the fact that it's a gate that teleports to the center of one city, and just in case if one of the "allies" turns on them, they can blow up the gate quickly so they can't be invaded from the inside out.

Just think about it though, it makes sense in the terms of how the Charr view war and their distrust for their current allies. It isn't that the Charr hate the asura since they use magic, it is since it's an easy access into the heart of their city.

[draxynnic]

Pretty much. As has already been said in this forum if not this thread in particular, it's surprising that the gates are so out in the open in the human cities - I would have expected them to be within their own set of walls at least as a precaution - not to the level of having it out on a gantry rigged to go boom, but enough that it'd take more than just subverting the local gate technician to send an army into the heart of the city. (Norn and sylvari I can imagine not thinking of that aspect, but humans really should have - even when they had their own portals such as the one to Nolani in GW1 they were better defended.)

Edited by draxynnic, 17 September 2012 - 09:45 AM.

[Konig Des Todes]

I was using that as an example, but apparently a poor one. In GHosts of Ascalon, or perhaps it was an interview, it was stated that charr don't trust asuran magic, but realize its usefulness. In the Black Citadel, there's an NPC talking about asuran delegates coming to look at charr technology who addresses similar concerns, but doesn't fret since they're in their territory and believes charr technology is better than asuran magic.

[San Darkwood]

I bet they would get on well with the Centaurs, even if it is purely on a mutual hatred for all things Human.

[Kurosov]

Domynic, on 16 September 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

I'm no fan of the charr, but that's simply sensible.

It's a bad omen that the humans think it's a great idea to put asura gates in the middle of their city, one right outside the palace. DR's my favorite city, but that just baffles me every time. Even the charr could've put their gate further from the um... Sphere thingum. But the bridge and explosives and actual guards is simply just forward thinking.

The Ebonhawke zone and the one above it is just a charr/human love fest. At lot of grudging respect coming from the charr and the fact that the entire zone was ceded over to Ebonhawke says a lot.

It also happens to be outside the seraph HQ. easy to mobilise a fast defence of the gate.

[MrForz]

Charrs actually don't hate other races as long as they share the same lust for war and strength and besides, with what's going on the hate is slowly fading away. During the story quest you get to see a silvari who's hyper excited at the idea of piloting charr tanks and blasting everything on sight, Vigil commander was pleased.

[draxynnic]

I wouldn't say that's the case - I've maintained for a while that the main thing that's kept humanity and charr at each other for so many similarities are their similarities - both are quite happy to expand through conquest (which the other playable races generally don't do, at least not in a planned fashion) and both have a stubborn unwillingness to let old grudges go. Charr respect a liking for war and strength, but they also respect (if perhaps not quite so much) other ways of contributing.

What gets them to turn that war machine on someone else is when they perceive that someone else as a threat. Before the Khan-Ur, charr of different nations were seen as threats. After the Khan-Ur but before the entente with the norn was established, other races were seen as threats. The entente with the norn showed them that other races aren't necessarily threats just because they're non-charr.

[Draycon]

I remember reading somewhere on the gw2 website during the game's development that the Charr respected the Norn because of how they fight... or something like that, I think it was on the Charr page.

[DuskWolf]

San Darkwood, on 18 September 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

I bet they would get on well with the Centaurs, even if it is purely on a mutual hatred for all things Human.

Except the charr don't hate all things human, this is a common misconception.

Fact: Even before the ceasefire, if any person (including a human) could prove their worth to the charr, they could work and own a home on charr land.

Fact: The charr had the military power to take Ebonhawke, they didn't. They spared Ebonhawke because of a possible peace between the races. They could have asploded it easily, they chose not to, they just fought Ebonhawke to a standstill until a ceasefire was possible (destroying Ebonhawke would have made a ceasefire very unlikely).

Fact: Even before the treaty, there were numerous charr speaking up for peace. One of them was Smodur the Unflinching, the Imperator of the Iron Legion.

Fact: You can't generalise an entire race. Some may be for war, but just as many (if not more) seem to appreciate the alliance.

Fact: The charr and humans surrounding Ebonhawke (that aren't renegades/separatists) get on just fine, and like/respect each other.

Fact: Human and charr kids can be frequently found playing together.

Fact: To act against a human is to go against the ceasefire, which, for a charr, is to disobey the chain of command (direct from the Imperator). That's a great way to become a gladium, and that's the fate that any charr who has any amount of self-value fears the most (worse than death). No truly legion-aligned charr would do that.

Fact: Most humans seem to be fine with the charr, it's only ridiculous politics that sometimes makes that not seem the case. Which is why we should burn all politicians, even in that Universe.

Fact: The animosity between humanity and the charr was brought about by bad leadership (of a sort). Adelbern, who'd never surrender and ran a propaganda war to make everyone super paranoid (remember the Krytan dignitaries?), and the Flame Legion, who pretty much straight up used magic to completely enslave the rest of the charr. Remove Adelbern and the Flame Legion, and you have a lot of charr and humans who don't give a darn about past animosities.

So there you go.

I'm really tired of this idea that the charr and humans hate each other. They don't. They really don't. I just want to put that nail in that coffin.

[Zunnash]

In response to the previous comment, are you sure they could have taken Ebonhawke?  I got the impression it was a stalemate.  Towards the end the leadership definitely wanted the truce though.  I recall reading somewhere (and I do not present this as fact because I do not remember where) that the whole "humans found the Claw" thing was a formality to appease not the charr leaders but those charr who would be unhappy with the truce without such a solid reason?

There are all kinds of different charr. They do not all share the exact same outlook.  The more "traditionally raised" charr (as Almorra puts it) are the ones that are super distrustful of all other races. You can actually see charr NPCs in the black citadel arguing about it if you run across the right conversations.  While some still hold conquest as an ideal many of the charr npcs in the game express most a desire to rid their homeland of the Flame Legion, ghosts, and branded.  Most of them will follow orders even if they disagree, but that doesn't mean they never express that disagreement.

There are definitely humans that hate charr and charr that hate humans.  It's just as has been said you cannot generalize an entire race into a collective consciousness.

Edited by Zunnash, 24 September 2012 - 02:58 AM.

[draxynnic]

DuskWolf, on 23 September 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

Except the charr don't hate all things human, this is a common misconception.

Fact: Even before the ceasefire, if any person (including a human) could prove their worth to the charr, they could work and own a home on charr land.

Fact: The charr had the military power to take Ebonhawke, they didn't. They spared Ebonhawke because of a possible peace between the races. They could have asploded it easily, they chose not to, they just fought Ebonhawke to a standstill until a ceasefire was possible (destroying Ebonhawke would have made a ceasefire very unlikely).

Fact: Even before the treaty, there were numerous charr speaking up for peace. One of them was Smodur the Unflinching, the Imperator of the Iron Legion.

Fact: You can't generalise an entire race. Some may be for war, but just as many (if not more) seem to appreciate the alliance.

Fact: The charr and humans surrounding Ebonhawke (that aren't renegades/separatists) get on just fine, and like/respect each other.

Fact: Human and charr kids can be frequently found playing together.

Fact: To act against a human is to go against the ceasefire, which, for a charr, is to disobey the chain of command (direct from the Imperator). That's a great way to become a gladium, and that's the fate that any charr who has any amount of self-value fears the most (worse than death). No truly legion-aligned charr would do that.

Fact: Most humans seem to be fine with the charr, it's only ridiculous politics that sometimes makes that not seem the case. Which is why we should burn all politicians, even in that Universe.

Fact: The animosity between humanity and the charr was brought about by bad leadership (of a sort). Adelbern, who'd never surrender and ran a propaganda war to make everyone super paranoid (remember the Krytan dignitaries?), and the Flame Legion, who pretty much straight up used magic to completely enslave the rest of the charr. Remove Adelbern and the Flame Legion, and you have a lot of charr and humans who don't give a darn about past animosities.

So there you go.

I'm really tired of this idea that the charr and humans hate each other. They don't. They really don't. I just want to put that nail in that coffin.

First: Not a fact. Ghosts of Ascalon shows that a human in charr territory in that time was assumed to be a prisoner or a threat. Admittedly, that might have been because GoA was in or near combat areas and a human working in the Black Citadel would be safer, but I haven't seen convincing evidence of that.

(Addendum: As I recall, that idea came from the old charr racial page, where it talks about other races including humans being welcome in the Black Citadel while Smodur works on the treaty. The key thing to note here is that there's essentially two treaties to note here. The first is the current ceasefire to stop the fighting so a longer-term arrangement can be made - which happened shortly after GoA. The second is the treaty that spells out that longer-term arrangement - which is still being negotiated in the Fields of Ruin, although I get the impression it's human politics that are the main holdups - the charr seem to have been fairly generous in their terms and the charr negotiators seemed to have a bit of a 'can't we just sign this already so we can stop wasting time and start killing our mutual enemies' attitude when I was there.)

Second: Not a fact. Ghosts of Ascalon shows that even during the negotiations, they would have happily taken Ebonhawke given the opportunity. As Kranxx said - "The Charr have very good weapons for destroying the walls. The Ebon Vanguard are very good at stopping the charr from getting those engines to the walls". One could claim that charr engines theoretically should have been able to make short work of those walls, but equally, said charr engines physically should not work with the steam-and-clockwork based technology we're told they're based on. What we're being shown, though, is that those machines work, and we've been told that the Vanguard can stop those machines from breaking down the walls of Ebonhawke.

Third:We know Malice was for it, albeit behind the scenes. Smodur I don't think is so certain, although he was certainly willing.

Fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh: All true.

Eightth: I wouldn't say it's entirely politics - there are bigots on both sides at various levels. Most humans do regard that history as either unimportant (most Krytans) or not important enough to be worth more bloodshed (most non-Separatist Ebonhawkers, although there does seem to be no shortage of sympathisers). Politics is fanning the flames, but the embers were already there.

Ninth: This one I disagree with strongly. The Flame Legion largely got in power because they promised the power to deal with Ascalon - the other charr wanted to get back at Ascalon too. Humans at the time seem to have pretty much forgotten about the charr until the invasion that lead to the Searing, and once the Searing happened there wasn't really anything they could do but fight or flee anyway (we see what happens to those who surrender to the GW1-era charr, and it isn't pretty. In Gwen's words "Death is better...")

A large part of the problem is that humans weren't content with the original conquest, but kept expanding northwards up until the Guild Wars. Without that, it's possible that in the nine hundred years between the founding of Ascalon and the assumption of power of the Flame Legion, that the border would have stabilised and relationships normalised in the meantime. So in that respect, whatever triggered the initial conflict, it's possibly humanity's fault that it continued to that point (we can't really say what would have happened if humans had been content to stay behind the Great Northern Wall rather than putting the charr in a position where they could legitimately fear that without turning things around, they may be left with no territory at all), but it's in the nature of both humans and charr to expand if given the opportunity.

So if you want to point at bad leadership, it's probably the kings of the first few centuries of Ascalon's history that kept the war as something that was very much in the 'present' for the charr by continuing to push north. Or, arguably, the initial invasion itself, although we still don't know (AFAIK) what caused that - which is a bit of a disappointment, because I was hoping for there to be some record in Orr.

Still, the important point is the fourth, that people are individuals, whether they're charr, human, or something else. There are tendencies, but you can't expect a stereotype to fit every individual, nor should you take a single individual and extrapolate that to a racial attitude.

Edited by draxynnic, 24 September 2012 - 04:38 AM.

[Konig Des Todes]

Drax, there are some implications on what caused the invasion of Ascalon. In Shelter Docks of Malchor's Leap are various Orrian History Scrolls - scrolls written by the Durmand Priory to inform the soldiers of the land they're fighting in. One scroll mentions that King Doric sent humans out into Kryta and Ascalon after Orr became too populated. Another scroll mentions that Balthazar pushed for humanity to spread across the world and claim it for themselves thinking other races would be easily defeated.

Though not absolutely certain, this is the best situation we have for an explanation - humans needed more land due to increasing population, and their god of war wanted Tyria to be claimed for humanity.

[Zunnash]

In response to the subject of such weapons not being something that would work with steam and clockwork machinery, and I know it's acknowledged it does work in the game world, the thing about steampunk is you can't really tell how advanced it is by how it looks. The charr have water treatment plants, submarines, compact underwater breathing devices, and likely many other examples of things that work with steampunk but not with real world steam era industrial technology. I don't know how advanced they are specifically, but charr technology is way more advanced than it looks.  That said I'm glad to see I wasn't imagining things when I remembered that the charr could not have easily taken Ebonhawke.

[Uvirith]

I like all the races, as long as they know their place.
I hate it when my manservant serves me Asura-Chopsticks with Sylvarisalad and a Meadfilled Nordskull and he spills some of it. It´s hard to get good humans these days...

Edited by Uvirith, 24 September 2012 - 07:43 AM.