15 replies to this topic

[Fredlicious]

This is cross-posted from the official forums so that I can get maximum coverage on advice.

First of all, let me say that, despite my overall lack of knowledge of GW2, I have already gathered that there is no “tanking” in the traditional RPG sense of the word in this game. With that, my goal with this build is to be durable enough that I can afford to draw the ire of enemies for long enough to give my allies some breathing room while at the same time contributing enough damage to the group to not feel like I am more of a hindrance than help. I’d also like to have a build that can do well in PvE as well as hold its own in the smaller WvW battles (spec ops kind of stuff, not so much the zerg). Finally, I prefer 2H weapons, though I do carry one of everything in my bags for those times when a situation (especially in dungeons) requires a different approach.

The build: http://www.guildhead...nRm0GxG0Mszobcs

As far as gear, I’m still pretty fresh to 80, and most of pieces are still mid-70 cleric gear from an older spec. My short term goal is to acquire the full Vigil set (which I want to do because I like the design anyway) which has Power/Vitality/Toughness, a rare combination on PvE gear. I’m not sure whether Knight’s or Cleric’s makes more sense for jewelry, and I have only an inkling of what kind of runes I should try to get (Soldier’s seems like a safe bet, but a good one?). That brings me to my questions:

1) Do I need some semblance of Healing Power from gear in order to make the Meditation Mastery/Monk’s Focus combo really worthwhile?

2) Does my current gear goal make sense? If not, what would be better?  What would make sense for jewelry and runes?

3) Is my current build too “selfish” to be worthwhile in a group? Or, put another way, if you were in my group and could see my spec, would you be concerned about the fact that I have focused on personal livability rather than group buffs?

4) Is there already a better build out there that does exactly what I want better than what I’ve created?
Thanks in advance for the help. Also, I hope that someone else out there who came to the forums looking for an idea of how to build their Guardian gains something of use from this thread!

Edited by Fredlicious, 18 September 2012 - 05:45 PM.

[Sifustorm]

I like your idea's sorry not sure about your questions tho seem like it could work on paper I guess its just matter of having gear to test it out

This is another 2handed build I was thinking about testing not sure if it work tho myself am looking for a PVP / PVE build that can last bit longer than most and can still run dungeon and stuff

http://www.gw2db.com...|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|

other build looks like this
http://www.gw2db.com...|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|

[Red_Falcon]

You got it all wrong OP.

Tanking in GW2 means preventing damage for yourself and your team, not being tanky yourself, because:
1) You can't keep aggro on you in GW2.
2) Not even the most tanky build with the best healer spec guy on your back would allow you to withstand a boss' damage.
Meditations are pretty much useless to your team, you should rather slot shouts and/or consacrations.
What you've made there is a DPS build that has nothing to do with tanking.

A "tanking" build would be something like this: http://gw2skills.net...AzCmDMJYLCGEsJA

I personally found a very balanced build that gives strong support but also high DPS: http://gw2skills.net...AzCmDMJYLCGEsJA

[Fredlicious]

Red_Falcon, on 18 September 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

1) You can't keep aggro on you in GW2.

While you can't keep aggro in the sense of a traditional MMO tank, I get the (possibly mistaken) impression that I draw quite a bit of attention from enemies when I use my battlefield control abilities (Greatsword 5 and Hammer 5) and just in general by usually being up close and personal with them.

Red_Falcon, on 18 September 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

2) Not even the most tanky build with the best healer spec guy on your back would allow you to withstand a boss' damage.

As I mentioned in the OP, I definitely understand this, and the goal isn't to "tank n' spank," but rather to be able to afford to accept the full ire of enemies for even a couple of seconds here and there, thus buying my allies breathing room to do what they need to do.  It's not so much tanking as it is control through survival.

Red_Falcon, on 18 September 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Meditations are pretty much useless to your team, you should rather slot shouts and/or consacrations.

On the one hand, given what I said just above, I would make the argument that personal survivability can be an asset to the team based on the ideas of buying them a few seconds and surviving to revive them.  On the other hand, the same allocation of trait points can actually be turned into (I think) a decent shout/support build for when it's called for: http://www.guildhead...vam0GxG0MsVoqMs

Edited by Fredlicious, 18 September 2012 - 06:42 PM.

[CrystallineDIVA]

yes.
yes.
yes.
and no.

[Red_Falcon]

Ok OP I'll be clear here.

I was doing you a favor explaining you how tanking in GW2 is done.
Your build is the complete opposite of tanking  - regardless what you think, not only mobs/bosses don't focus on you but furthermore, focusing damage on you is the worst possible way of tanking in GW2 as it will just lead you to be 2shotted.
Even for self-survival (which is what you wanted) it's bad as there are much, much better options (hold the line, save yourselves, retreat and sanctuary will prevent a TON more damage than you would ever heal with meditations).
Tanking in GW2 means giving tons of buffs to your whole team so that everyone will negate damage, and possibly some life-savers like Wall of Reflection / Sanctuary.
Self-survivability is done by preventing damage, not heal it.

A Guardian on a shout build will last 3 times more (which is what you wanted to achieve) than you and also prevent a ton of damage to his team (which is how tanking is actually done in GW2), while still healing in similar amounts due to shouts / sanctuary, and said healing would be team-wide not only yours.

But one is free to do whatever he wants, nonetheless. Have fun

Edited by Red_Falcon, 18 September 2012 - 09:00 PM.

[Sieran]

Gotta agree with Falcon. I love meditation builds for running around in open-world, but I swap em out any time I'm anywhere near a dungeon. Usually run some rotation of HtL, Retreat, SYG, WoR and spirit weaps, depending on what the situation requires.

Think also about your weaponsets - GS/Hammer is a relatively high-dps set, and while hammer has a lot of great control, GS can be swapped out for something tankier like mace/shield. I run GS/staff in dungeons but I aim for a bit more balance/adaptation instead of leaning tank.

Also, the best tanks I've seen...  it has very little to do with their build. If they know the dungeon and how to kite/dodge/etc properly, they avoid damage that way. A lot of bosses are going to one or two-shot you anyway; going full tank might mean you can take 1.8 hits versus 1.2, you're still going down in two hits.

Edited by Sieran, 18 September 2012 - 09:23 PM.

[Wolfynsong]

Step one to a better build: remove the word "tank."

[Fredlicious]

Let me also be clear that I'm not arguing for the sake of being combative, but because, if I'm wrong in my thinking, I want to understand why.

So, what of the shout adaptation of the build I posted in my first reply?  Is Altruistic Healing any good with shouts at all (I have heard that it only procs once for each shout rather than once for each boon, and I have no idea how much it actually heals for)?

I'm aware that the Greatsword is not a defensive weapon at all, although I do like the control afforded by the 5th skill.  I use it mostly because it's my favorite weapon and because it feels like there is always a time in every fight when I am best served just pumping out the damage since, as has been repeated, it's impossible to be a full time "tank."

I also realize (now) that the word "tank" alone has stigma in the GW community, and that I shouldn't have used it, since it's causing people to focus on the traditional definition of the word even though that's never been what I was trying to accomplish.

[Red_Falcon]

AHealing gives roughly 70hp per person who gets a boon (including you) from you.
For instance when you use Retreat! or Hold the Line or Stand your Ground in a dungeon group you get 2*(70*4) = 560hp, so your shouts will be also healing you for that much.
Symbols give a boon per second so that's 70hp/s multipled by number of people in your symbol.
With 5 people (including you obviously) you get 70*5 = 350hp per tick (symbols usually last 3s so that would be 1k health per symbol).
Assuming you get 2 symbols down and use shouts you get 3500hp per rotation.
It's not madly good but it's something, especially since HtL and SY shouts give great regen healing (about 2.5-3k), you get a total of 6-8k healing every utility rotation, comparable to what you get with meditation healing.


The importance of shouts though, is damage negation.
Aegis from Retreat can negate a full 10k hit on you and on all your team (and it lasts 20+ seconds so it won't go wasted), plus the mobility from swiftness is great for both you and your team.
Protection from HtL turns a 10k hit into a 7k one for your whole team. This can prevent death too.
Save Yourselves is the only reliable way we have to get Fury (for 10s + boon duration), which greatly increase your DPS, along with 10s protection, and 10s Vigor to get more dodges in.
SyG is on 24s CD only when traited and gives your team Ret/Stability; the latter can save wipes.

I tend to throw Sanctuary in the scheme when tanking non-defiant bosses or ranged bosses, it basically gives a good heal plus a bubble of immortality for your entire team for 9s when traited.
Of course this can be used for yourself alone too, others will jump in at will (or shoot from behind it).

Ultimately, a Guardian with this build is raising his own survivability to the roof, but also that of the team.

PS: I agree with you people is a bit too much susceptible to the term "tank".
This way of playing is still a form of team defense aka tanking, I'm not sure what else we should call it.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 19 September 2012 - 03:34 AM.

[Sifustorm]

Thanks for the info help with overall out come for dungeons and group builds it seem but is there a build that you would say does all pvp /  pve aka solo / and dungeon and if so would post it with gear advice please and thanks for the help3

Plus would explain why u picked more radiance than you did valor is just for the precision or is it because the gear is easier to find toughness and vit than pre

thanks again

[Dvonn]

Red_Falcon, on 19 September 2012 - 03:33 AM, said:

PS: I agree with you people is a bit too much susceptible to the term "tank".
This way of playing is still a form of team defense aka tanking, I'm not sure what else we should call it.

Long ago, when Arenanet said there were no trinity, they talked about 'new trinity' or something like that. They gave names to the new kind of play but I'm not able to find the article.

[Eijolend]

I see the use of being able to sustain some hits, but what this build completely lacks is Protection. In my experience you cannot expect to live through boss hits if you don't have protection up regardless of your gear and it far outweighs the self-heal of Meditations.
The only source of protection comes from the Hammer symbol, which is very unreliable and you won't have it up if you have to move or are hit by a CC effect. If you want to take hits, you absolutely need some skills that give you protection, namely "Hold the Line!", "Save Yourselves!" or the Shield #4 or the 5point minor trait in the Virtue line (which is too good to not take for any group centered build imho)

I agree with Red_Falcon, that a Shout-centered build would help you achieve your goal better.

[Revellion]

if u are talking about the first set from AC then it is for 60
Other sets who have power/toughness/vitality are Dredge and Koda

[Aaron The Guardian]

Red_Falcon, on 19 September 2012 - 03:33 AM, said:

AHealing gives roughly 70hp per person who gets a boon (including you) from you.
For instance when you use Retreat! or Hold the Line or Stand your Ground in a dungeon group you get 2*(70*4) = 560hp, so your shouts will be also healing you for that much.
Symbols give a boon per second so that's 70hp/s multipled by number of people in your symbol.
With 5 people (including you obviously) you get 70*5 = 350hp per tick (symbols usually last 3s so that would be 1k health per symbol).
Assuming you get 2 symbols down and use shouts you get 3500hp per rotation.
It's not madly good but it's something, especially since HtL and SY shouts give great regen healing (about 2.5-3k), you get a total of 6-8k healing every utility rotation, comparable to what you get with meditation healing.


The importance of shouts though, is damage negation.
Aegis from Retreat can negate a full 10k hit on you and on all your team (and it lasts 20+ seconds so it won't go wasted), plus the mobility from swiftness is great for both you and your team.
Protection from HtL turns a 10k hit into a 7k one for your whole team. This can prevent death too.
Save Yourselves is the only reliable way we have to get Fury (for 10s + boon duration), which greatly increase your DPS, along with 10s protection, and 10s Vigor to get more dodges in.
SyG is on 24s CD only when traited and gives your team Ret/Stability; the latter can save wipes.

I tend to throw Sanctuary in the scheme when tanking non-defiant bosses or ranged bosses, it basically gives a good heal plus a bubble of immortality for your entire team for 9s when traited.
Of course this can be used for yourself alone too, others will jump in at will (or shoot from behind it).

Ultimately, a Guardian with this build is raising his own survivability to the roof, but also that of the team.

PS: I agree with you people is a bit too much susceptible to the term "tank".
This way of playing is still a form of team defense aka tanking, I'm not sure what else we should call it.

What armor stats would you suggest for survivabliity? Dungeon armor stats ok? For instance prec, vit, healing?

[Littlefeather]