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"Dodge or Die" abilities on low cooldown balanced?

warrior thief mesmer instakill balance

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#1 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:44 AM

There are a few pretty much instakill abilities in the game that you need to dodge or you will go down instantly (if you haven't specced for full toughness + vitality then you might live with 2-4k health, not long though):

- Warrior's Hundred Blades, need to dodge or be killed from 100% to (close to depending on spec) 0% in one move. Has 8 seconds cooldown.
- Thieves' Pistol Whip: need to use stun breaker and dodge or be instagibbed with 1 or 2 whips. No cooldown obviously.
- Mesmers' Blurred Frenzy (to a much lesser extend) does a whole lot of damage if you don't dodge, plus makes the mesmer invulnerable. This is the least of the instagib evils, but it bears mentioning because it too has a low 10 seconds cooldown.

The "defense" of players playing those classes is always "you need to dodge this and that move you noob".

But how come those instakill moves have such low (or none) cooldown? To regenerate enough endurance for 1 dodge you need 10 seconds. Which means you will not be able to dodge every 100blades if the warrior uses it on cooldown.

Warriors also have bolas (20 seconds) and bulls charge (40 seconds) to immobilize/knockdown you, you you will need to use a long utility skill if you have one to break the CC and get away from the instakill. Same for pistol whip which stuns you.

How is it fair that those "dodge/break stun or die" moves have less than 10 seconds cooldown? When you need 10 seconds to regenerate a single dodge? And stunbreaker utilities usually have 40-60 seconds cooldown?

Edited by AetherMcLoud, 19 September 2012 - 08:45 AM.


#2 razor39999

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:30 AM

Because the game is designed to be played with offense in mind first. Things eventually have to die. If you want to troll and be invincible, play a thief with sb, withdraw, roll for initiative and something to give you vigor.

#3 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:53 AM

View Postrazor39999, on 19 September 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Because the game is designed to be played with offense in mind first.

Then shouldn't every class and weapon-set have such short cooldown instakill abilities? At the moment it's just those 2-3 I mentioned.
And as an Elementalist, what offense exactly do I bring against a warrior with 25k health that can instakill me every 8 seconds? My hardest hitting attack has 50 seconds cooldown and crits for ~8k if I'm lucky and we both are in glasscannon specs.

#4 Wabbit

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:55 AM

You don't prolly expect that you won't die to a burst combo?

Many skills rely on other skills (Mostly some CC)
for example warrior's 100b rely mostly on stun or immobilize. even when 100b has 8 seconds cooldown, when pulled out alone, it's pretty useless. You need something to make enemy stay still. Mostly warriors use bull's charge that has 40second cooldown.

Mesmers'  Blurred Frenzy make mesmer unable to move while channeling the skill.

Try to take advantage of the things that make them vulnerable.

Only thing I agree with you is the pistol whip, which is pretty annoying, but it still needs to be performed next to the target and in the right direction. Just move out and make thief waste his/her initiatives.

#5 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:03 AM

View PostWabbit, on 19 September 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

You don't prolly expect that you won't die to a burst combo?

Many skills rely on other skills (Mostly some CC)
for example warrior's 100b rely mostly on stun or immobilize. even when 100b has 8 seconds cooldown, when pulled out alone, it's pretty useless. You need something to make enemy stay still. Mostly warriors use bull's charge that has 40second cooldown.

Mesmers'  Blurred Frenzy make mesmer unable to move while channeling the skill.

Try to take advantage of the things that make them vulnerable.

Only thing I agree with you is the pistol whip, which is pretty annoying, but it still needs to be performed next to the target and in the right direction. Just move out and make thief waste his/her initiatives.

Pistol whip stuns you so you can't simply move out. Plus thieves have stealth. Also I wouldn't call using 1 skill a "burst combo". As I said, warriors have bola on 20 seconds cooldown that immobilizes (and only very few classes have immobilize breakers on such a short cooldown) so you can 100b without mercy. Also, 100b has less cooldown than it takes to regenerate a dodge, so if he takes his time, sooner or later the warrior will catch you in 100b without you being able to dodge.

Plus of course a warrior can simply charge you when you are unaware and gib you in 1 second with haste (just like thieves with teleport+pistowhip+haste). It's those 2 combos that are most annoying. How are you supposed to counter that?

#6 Screek

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:11 AM

Meh you can't set it up like that.
there is so many factors, like on my engi i got 100% uptime on vigor, so while fighting i gain 100% faster edurance regen, meaning i can dodge twice as much as normal.

Its not a 1v1 game, team mates are there to help with stuns / knockdowns / blind and so on.
I'm plying a utility tank - support engi my self (point holder).
I got 3 x AoE pushback-knockdowns, x 3 AoE blinds - you see where im going with this? :)

Edited by Screek, 19 September 2012 - 10:14 AM.


#7 Kelarmz

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:16 AM

They aren't really "dodge or die" they're more like "dodge or be at a massive disadvantage."  Not that that's much better... but just saying. As long as these abilities have some sort of massive drawback, they can be balanced.  

Hundred blades is probably the the only good example since this game is so terribly imbalanced.  A 100b warrior is a one-trick pony all the way - he trades everything for that dodge or die move.  It doesn't really have an 8 second cooldown at all, because the setup moves that are required to even have a hope of landing it all have a longer cooldown than that.  Dodge a bull's charge (VERY easy to do), break a stun/use stability, and he's probably going to be dead or running by the time he has the chance to try again.  Even if he catches you with one, you should never be taking the full channel and you won't be dead just from that.  I find these guys to be free kills most of the time.

Pistol whip is a little more stupid because it stuns you, but they don't have much of a defense in that build and it's kitable, so you don't need to stall for too long before they're in trouble.  Again, a couple of dodges and a stun break on his hasted combo is usually enough.  

Mesmers are just retarded in general, and I have no idea why blurred frenzy makes them invulnerable.  You should be able to dodge or simply walk out of most of them though, if you have enough endurance left over from dodging the phantasms hitting you for like 30% of your hp at a time.

Edited by Kelarmz, 19 September 2012 - 10:19 AM.


#8 Clyne

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:22 AM

There is a fundamental flaw with this thinking.
You are assuming, in that time when you dodge a killer burst, you'd have no ways to either, kite, stun, immobolize or down the other person.
This is flawed.
You dodged the killer crap, in that 10 seconds, are you telling me , you would just stand there and be like, hey, i'll let you hit me again ?

If you cannot kill someone, in that 10 seconds of down time,
You've either spec too much into vit or toughness and have no killing power,
or you really need to learn to play.

Honestly, get back to me when you have that in your head.

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 19 September 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

There are a few pretty much instakill abilities in the game that you need to dodge or you will go down instantly (if you haven't specced for full toughness + vitality then you might live with 2-4k health, not long though):

- Warrior's Hundred Blades, need to dodge or be killed from 100% to (close to depending on spec) 0% in one move. Has 8 seconds cooldown.
- Thieves' Pistol Whip: need to use stun breaker and dodge or be instagibbed with 1 or 2 whips. No cooldown obviously.
- Mesmers' Blurred Frenzy (to a much lesser extend) does a whole lot of damage if you don't dodge, plus makes the mesmer invulnerable. This is the least of the instagib evils, but it bears mentioning because it too has a low 10 seconds cooldown.

The "defense" of players playing those classes is always "you need to dodge this and that move you noob".

But how come those instakill moves have such low (or none) cooldown? To regenerate enough endurance for 1 dodge you need 10 seconds. Which means you will not be able to dodge every 100blades if the warrior uses it on cooldown.

Warriors also have bolas (20 seconds) and bulls charge (40 seconds) to immobilize/knockdown you, you you will need to use a long utility skill if you have one to break the CC and get away from the instakill. Same for pistol whip which stuns you.

How is it fair that those "dodge/break stun or die" moves have less than 10 seconds cooldown? When you need 10 seconds to regenerate a single dodge? And stunbreaker utilities usually have 40-60 seconds cooldown?


#9 ak47_training

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:26 AM

OP, you should add Backstab to the list. Thieves have more than enough ways to gain stealth to spam BS reliably.

Quote

Because the game is designed to be played with offense in mind first. Things eventually have to die.

If that is the case, why only these few classes have such instagib low cooldown abilities?
The most powerful Elementalist combos take ~6 seconds to execute and deal 12-15k damage in full glass cannon spec, all the while being on 36+ sec cooldown.
Necromancers are uncapable of bursting completely.
Rangers need their quickness utility to do proper burst and it is on quite a long cooldown (a minute). Otherwise, you usually have enough time to break LoS / use a defensive cooldown even if you're out of endurance.
Engies have nothing similar as well, they're all about pressure, not instagib.
Offensive Guardians' GS whirl skill has 10 second cd and it is not nearly as reliable as 100b - you can literally walk away from it you have no endurance and still be alive; GS immobilize has 30 second cd and Guardians do not have such an easy access to cripples as Warriors do.

Quote

If you cannot kill someone, in that 10 seconds of down time,
You've either spec too much into vit or toughness and have no killing power,
or you really need to learn to play.
This is so wrong I can't even start thinking how to respond to it. This game is not about glass vs glass, you know.

#10 MarzAttakz

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:31 AM

10 seconds to kill a Warrior with a glass spec Ele? Don't know what you're smoking mate, apart from the fact that our heavy burst rotations take 4-5 skills to land also needing CC and have longer cooldowns than both bolas and bull's charge.

You wanna throw the L2P comments around? How about you learn what other people are experiencing first.

#11 Clyne

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:37 AM

View Postak47_training, on 19 September 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

OP, you should add Backstab to the list. Thieves have more than enough ways to gain stealth to spam BS reliably.



If that is the case, why only these few classes have such instagib low cooldown abilities?
The most powerful Elementalist combos take ~6 seconds to execute and deal 12-15k damage in full glass cannon spec, all the while being on 36+ sec cooldown.
Necromancers are uncapable of bursting completely.
Rangers need their quickness utility to do proper burst and it is on quite a long cooldown (a minute). Otherwise, you usually have enough time to break LoS / use a defensive cooldown even if you're out of endurance.
Engies have nothing similar as well, they're all about pressure, not instagib.
Offensive Guardians' GS whirl skill has 10 second cd and it is not nearly as reliable as 100b - you can literally walk away from it you have no endurance and still be alive; GS immobilize has 30 second cd and Guardians do not have such an easy access to cripples as Warriors do.


This is so wrong I can't even start thinking how to respond to it. This game is not about glass vs glass, you know.

Dude, spell it out. What i'm getting from you, is that you want to be rewarded in burst damage while having good survival ability. You are essentially asking to be overpowered.

View PostMarzAttakz, on 19 September 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

10 seconds to kill a Warrior with a glass spec Ele? Don't know what you're smoking mate, apart from the fact that our heavy burst rotations take 4-5 skills to land also needing CC and have longer cooldowns than both bolas and bull's charge.

You wanna throw the L2P comments around? How about you learn what other people are experiencing first.

Dude, spell it out. I would *love to see it.

And for God's sake
Learn to read when i said you could kite, immobolize, stun during those down times. I did not say you could only down. christ.

DPS specs have crap CC, are you telling me you suck that bad ?
I have NO ISSUES killing a glass warrior.
I play Thief and Engineer.

The only thing in your favor, is that i have never spvp as an ele.

Edited by Clyne, 19 September 2012 - 10:42 AM.


#12 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:38 AM

View PostClyne, on 19 September 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

There is a fundamental flaw with this thinking.
You are assuming, in that time when you dodge a killer burst, you'd have no ways to either, kite, stun, immobolize or down the other person.
This is flawed.
You dodged the killer crap, in that 10 seconds, are you telling me , you would just stand there and be like, hey, i'll let you hit me again ?

If you cannot kill someone, in that 10 seconds of down time,
You've either spec too much into vit or toughness and have no killing power,
or you really need to learn to play.

Honestly, get back to me when you have that in your head.

And the warrior is like, hey I'ma just let you kill be because I don't have any attacks outside of my burst combo? Nah.

Also, I play elementalist so no I can not kill someone in 10 seconds if they know a little bit how to play.

View PostMarzAttakz, on 19 September 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

10 seconds to kill a Warrior with a glass spec Ele? Don't know what you're smoking mate, apart from the fact that our heavy burst rotations take 4-5 skills to land also needing CC and have longer cooldowns than both bolas and bull's charge.

You wanna throw the L2P comments around? How about you learn what other people are experiencing first.

This times ten.

#13 Clyne

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:46 AM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 19 September 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

And the warrior is like, hey I'ma just let you kill be because I don't have any attacks outside of my burst combo? Nah.

Also, I play elementalist so no I can not kill someone in 10 seconds if they know a little bit how to play.



This times ten.

learn to read. Should i quote myself 10 times ?
Just for you, i'll say it again. Kite, immbolize, stun, blind or even kill that glass during the burst down time.

What are you smoking man, your objective is pretty clear in my eyes.

I'm getting this message that you want elementalist to be buffed. But pal, putting down other classes is not a noble way to do it.

Edited by Clyne, 19 September 2012 - 10:49 AM.


#14 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:49 AM

View PostClyne, on 19 September 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

learn to read. Should i quote myself 10 times ?
Just for you, i'll say it again. Kite, immbolize, stun, blind or even kill that glass during the burst down time.

What are you smoking man, your objectives is pretty clear in my eyes.

I'm getting this message that you want elementalist to be buffed. But pal, putting down other classes is not a noble way to do it.

a) I'm not your pal
b ) You should try to get some reading comprehension yourself.

Do you really think the warrior will just stand there and let you use your compled 6-8 skill combo on him? No, he'll dodge and use his cooldowns too, plus attacking and CCing you.

Edited by AetherMcLoud, 19 September 2012 - 10:49 AM.


#15 Clyne

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:50 AM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 19 September 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

a) I'm not your pal
B) You should try to get some reading comprehension yourself.

Do you really think the warrior will just stand there and let you use your compled 6-8 skill combo on him? No, he'll dodge and use his cooldowns too, plus attacking and CCing you.

Whatever, i'm done with this game. You wanna troll, be my guest.

Your counter statement don't make sense, in the time when he is on cool down, you're telling me that the elementalist have no ways to ensure a kill ? Like i've said, i have no issues playing as a thief or an engineer.
But whatever,
You've just proven my point. Scream at anet if you want the Elementalist to be buffed. End of story.

Edited by Clyne, 19 September 2012 - 10:53 AM.


#16 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:52 AM

View PostClyne, on 19 September 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

Whatever, i'm done with this game. You wanna troll, be my guest.
You've just proven my point. Scream at anet if you want the Elementalist to be buffed. End of story.

As others posted here, almost no class has 1-2 button kill combos. Necro, Engy, Ranger, Guardian, they all need to use a lot of skills and CC to kill someone.

Again you fail to read correctly.

#17 MarzAttakz

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:56 AM

View PostClyne, on 19 September 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

You've just proven my point. Scream at anet if you want the Elementalist to be buffed. End of story.

We have been since BWE3 where shit went pear-shapped. Cool you play a thief and engineer but haven't tried an Ele yet, please give it a go just for two matches so you can understand where we're coming from, not trying to troll you or anything but the picture from our side of the screen is pretty dismal. And in our usual rotations we are throwing literally everything including all our CC and cooldowns into these situations.

#18 Clyne

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:59 AM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 19 September 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

As others posted here, almost no class has 1-2 button kill combos. Necro, Engy, Ranger, Guardian, they all need to use a lot of skills and CC to kill someone.

Again you fail to read correctly.

Damn, you are really trying to spread false information. 100 blades has never killed me in a combo. Not even with criticals.
You are malicious in your intent and i will not be part of your plan here. Thanks.

View PostMarzAttakz, on 19 September 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

We have been since BWE3 where shit went pear-shapped. Cool you play a thief and engineer but haven't tried an Ele yet, please give it a go just for two matches so you can understand where we're coming from, not trying to troll you or anything but the picture from our side of the screen is pretty dismal. And in our usual rotations we are throwing literally everything including all our CC and cooldowns into these situations.

Thanks. I understand, i have guild mates playing as Elementalist. But i disagree with his malicious intent to put other classes down just to get what he wants. like i've said, i have an ele, but i do not spvp with it.

#19 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:08 AM

View PostClyne, on 19 September 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

Damn, you are really trying to spread false information. 100 blades has never killed me in a combo. Not even with criticals.
You are malicious in your intent and i will not be part of your plan here. Thanks.

Malicious. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

And of course 100b never killed you because you play a warrior yourself who has 25k health in glasscannon spec and simply 100blades back.

#20 Hep

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:11 AM

View PostKelarmz, on 19 September 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

They aren't really "dodge or die" they're more like "dodge or be at a massive disadvantage."

Actually, they're more like "dodge or stun or pushback or block or blind or launch or teleport or use dodge-like ability or knockdown or fear or distort or mist form or other abilities that grant invulnerability or have an ally do a bunch of those things plus pull or die." The notion that the abilities the OP named are almost automatically your death is a joke.

#21 Clyne

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:12 AM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 19 September 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

Malicious. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

And of course 100b never killed you because you play a warrior yourself who has 25k health in glasscannon spec and simply 100blades back.

I know i should not derail myself for stuff like this but . I have qualifications that you may never attain with an attitude like that. jus sayin. and now i'm an idiot :)

I've said it so many times that i play a thief and an engineer.
I believe people have enough intellect to know where this is going, so like the Dragon's Den, i'm out and good luck.

Edited by Clyne, 19 September 2012 - 11:15 AM.


#22 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:18 AM

View PostHep, on 19 September 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Actually, they're more like "dodge or stun or pushback or block or blind or launch or teleport or use dodge-like ability or knockdown or fear or distort or mist form or other abilities that grant invulnerability or have an ally do a bunch of those things plus pull or die." The notion that the abilities the OP named are almost automatically your death is a joke.

Well, sure, but all those things (stuns, pushback, block, blind, etc.) have (way) longer cooldowns than 100blades and pistolwhip. So while you use your teleport/knockback/whatever on a ~45 seconds cooldown, they can simply use their move again after a few seconds when you burned your cooldowns. That's my main gripe with those moves, the extremely short cooldown.

View PostClyne, on 19 September 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

I know i should not derail myself for stuff like this but . I have qualifications that you may never attain with an attitude like that. jus sayin. and now i'm an idiot :)

Uhh, are we playing the "I'm better in reallife than you" game? I have fun playing that because I don't lose to a lot of people with my own qualifications (that you may never attain? lulwot?) Play your cards, but play them well.

#23 Hep

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:34 AM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 19 September 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

Well, sure, but all those things (stuns, pushback, block, blind, etc.) have (way) longer cooldowns than 100blades and pistolwhip. So while you use your teleport/knockback/whatever on a ~45 seconds cooldown, they can simply use their move again after a few seconds when you burned your cooldowns. That's my main gripe with those moves, the extremely short cooldown.

First of all, no, not all of those things. You dodging is not on a long cooldown, nor is things like blind for certain classes. But that's besides the point - all of those things fight against those abilities you speak of, and you can have at least a few of them at your disposal. Ignoring the fact that keeping your distance can nullify a lot of their effectiveness without ever having to use a special ability.

#24 ak47_training

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:43 AM

Quote

Actually, they're more like "dodge or stun or pushback or block or blind or launch or teleport or use dodge-like ability or knockdown or fear or distort or mist form or other abilities that grant invulnerability or have an ally do a bunch of those things plus pull or die." The notion that the abilities the OP named are almost automatically your death is a joke.

You don't get the point of thread. Let me iterate it for you:

1) These 1shot abilities have very short cooldowns to the point of spammable. This design could be intended and fine, IF all classes in the game had acces either to their own 1shot abilities (balanced but boring oneshot fest) or their own source of unlimited defense vs 1shot abilities (much more interesting). The latter is clearly not the case - dodges are very limited and defensive cooldowns are 5x times longer than 1shot cooldowns are. The former brings me to my next point.

2) Only 3 classes have access to these 1shot abilites. And out of these 3 only Warriors have to really sacrifice something (namely survivability, which they have plenty out of the box) to pull out instagib moves. Thieves and Mesmers just have these "naturally". This is especially true in the case of Thieves - you actually have even MORE survivability when you go fo Backstab spam build due to stealth or even MORE CC with Pistol Whip stuns.

#25 Red_Falcon

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:58 AM

Another HB complaint?

Pfffffffff.

#26 Hep

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 12:02 PM

View Postak47_training, on 19 September 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

You don't get the point of thread. Let me iterate it for you:

1) These 1shot abilities have very short cooldowns to the point of spammable. This design could be intended and fine, IF all classes in the game had acces either to their own 1shot abilities (balanced but boring oneshot fest) or their own source of unlimited defense vs 1shot abilities (much more interesting). The latter is clearly not the case - dodges are very limited and defensive cooldowns are 5x times longer than 1shot cooldowns are. The former brings me to my next point.

2) Only 3 classes have access to these 1shot abilites. And out of these 3 only Warriors have to really sacrifice something (namely survivability, which they have plenty out of the box) to pull out instagib moves. Thieves and Mesmers just have these "naturally". This is especially true in the case of Thieves - you actually have even MORE survivability when you go fo Backstab spam build due to stealth or even MORE CC with Pistol Whip stuns.

Firstly, no, it's obvious the OP is painting a picture of things that you're left with little options once you're targeted by the classes with the named abilities. Even you insinuate it with use of the word "instagib". No, they're not "instagib". There's plenty to do in order to counter those those abilities, so if that isn't the point of the thread, please stop acting as if it's a given they're "instagib".

Lastly, no, they do not need to be on all professions. If those professions that have high damage melee abilities could do other things as well as all of the other professions, then perhaps you'd have something. When a Warrior can lay down condition damage as well as an Engineer, or a Thief can have as much control at long range as a Ranger, or the host of other things they fall short on in order to get good in-your-face, high-risk high-reward damage, then you can complain about not being able to match them there.

#27 ak47_training

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 02:26 PM

Quote

Even you insinuate it with use of the word "instagib". No, they're not "instagib". There's plenty to do in order to counter those those abilities, so if that isn't the point of the thread, please stop acting as if it's a given they're "instagib".
By "instagib" I mean "They either kill you outright or leave you so at such a heavy disadvantage (i.e. low health) you can't recover from IF you do not use some sort of active defense to counter them (i.e. evade)".

As I mentioned in my 1) the existence of these abilities alone does not make the aforementioned classes OP - it's the lack of proper _amount_ of adequate defense from these moves that makes them OP and the absence of punishment for failure in landing the instagib skill. Basically, you can try again and again and eventually your victim will either slip or run out of defensive options and you will win - and you usually have enough tools (stealth, CC, clones, evades) to last long enough for this to happen (with the exception of Warrior again, who is at least kitable to a certain extent as long as you manage to block/evade his Rush and Bola).

I.e. it is extremely hard to evade Backstab as-is since Thief uses it out of stealth, and if properly landed Backstab decides the outcome of the duel - see how 1100 Toughness Warrior got hit by it http://oi47.tinypic.com/3v2gh.jpg for instance.
That - I'll say it again - would be OK design if Thief had only one chance to land a Backstab and that chance would be within a limited time window and Thief would be at grave disadvantage after failure (high-risk high-reward option you mention). But this is not the case. Thief is not punished for failing a Backstab. He can a) wait until you run out of blocks/evades while being stealthed in Shadow Refuge b.)Restealth after a failed Backstab with Cloak and Dagger or whatnot and c) Reset the fight completely because he is extremely mobile, slippery and can escape from you, while the opposite is not true.

Edited by ak47_training, 19 September 2012 - 02:29 PM.


#28 FBRin

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 03:05 PM

Offense in this game is extremely braindead compared to the defensive measures needed to avoid it. It's likely something you'll just have to deal with since it seems to be a design choice. Most of these abilities are only really a problem if both players are full glass cannon and have a quickness ability up anyway. Otherwise you have quite a bit of time to get out or use a defensive measure. Not only that but before long we'll probably be seeing more and more people able to dodge things like bull's rush on reaction.

#29 Hika

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 04:10 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 19 September 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

The "defense" of players playing those classes is always "you need to dodge this and that move you noob".

That is because it is true

In the case of the Elementalist I'll agree and say that part of this is a flaw in the profession's design by the excessively high cooldown timers on abilities; Yes, the Elementalist could use some cooldown adjustment love from the developers.

No, these "dodge or die" abilities are not imbalanced.

The "dodge or die" abilities may have a short cooldown but the profession's CC and burst buffs (haste, +%damage and might etc) have mucher higher cooldowns, mostly 40+ seconds but some 20+.

These are STATIONARY attacks, so easy to avoid

Pisto Whip is only a 1/2 second stun, easy to get out of unless you are being ganked by multiple opponents in which case one would stand little chance of survival anyways

I honestly have no problem countering Warriors & Thieves (typically the easiest to kill) when playing as any 5 of my regular sPvP professions, most of which are low hp builds.

Edited by Hika, 19 September 2012 - 04:11 PM.


#30 dustbunny

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 04:12 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 19 September 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

There are a few pretty much instakill abilities in the game that you need to dodge or you will go down instantly (if you haven't specced for full toughness + vitality then you might live with 2-4k health, not long though):

- Warrior's Hundred Blades, need to dodge or be killed from 100% to (close to depending on spec) 0% in one move. Has 8 seconds cooldown.
- Thieves' Pistol Whip: need to use stun breaker and dodge or be instagibbed with 1 or 2 whips. No cooldown obviously.
- Mesmers' Blurred Frenzy (to a much lesser extend) does a whole lot of damage if you don't dodge, plus makes the mesmer invulnerable. This is the least of the instagib evils, but it bears mentioning because it too has a low 10 seconds cooldown.

The "defense" of players playing those classes is always "you need to dodge this and that move you noob".

But how come those instakill moves have such low (or none) cooldown? To regenerate enough endurance for 1 dodge you need 10 seconds. Which means you will not be able to dodge every 100blades if the warrior uses it on cooldown.

Warriors also have bolas (20 seconds) and bulls charge (40 seconds) to immobilize/knockdown you, you you will need to use a long utility skill if you have one to break the CC and get away from the instakill. Same for pistol whip which stuns you.

How is it fair that those "dodge/break stun or die" moves have less than 10 seconds cooldown? When you need 10 seconds to regenerate a single dodge? And stunbreaker utilities usually have 40-60 seconds cooldown?

Seriously, 100b is just a ridiculously stupid skill that is worthless without a CC. You can just walk away from it. It will do damage, but not to the full extent. If you walk away without dodging, it does the same damage as any other major damage skill in the game.
If you get CC'd, you should have a stun breaker. And the warrior CC skills have significant cooldown.

Pistol whip can be annoying, and takes a few hits to kill you. It's not instant death. A glass cannon thief will run away the moment you break stun and dodge away. Most thiefs wont give up on you, they will keep their hit and run tactics. You need to have something prepared for them, like a blind, etc. And the haste utility has a significant cooldown.

Tourney games rarely play out as you describe them. If there would be a truly OP class, everyone would roll those in tourney. But actually there is none, or the broken builds have not been discovered yet.

I played in tourneys against burst teams, like 5 people chain CCing every target and bursting them down in 3-4 seconds tops. Still, you can just outplay them by split tactics. Conquest mode is actually put in place to make it possible to counter such 5 man burst builds not by force, but with brains.

Bottom line is, not glass cannon build can burst you down with one combo 1v1 if you are prepared (like not 20% hp, out of endurance, no heal and utilities on cooldown). And after their combo they are pretty much at your mercy.

I wont use the l2p cliche, since it rude and only shows how limited people are. Instead I'll say that you need to practice, ask friends or on the forums about the strength and weaknesses of certain builds. Make use of your builds strength.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: warrior, thief, mesmer, instakill, balance

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