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"Dodge or Die" abilities on low cooldown balanced?

warrior thief mesmer instakill balance

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#31 Rotm

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 06:40 PM

Why is blurred frenzy even on this list. I got pistol whipped for 15k on my mesmer today, there is no comparison.

#32 Altma951

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 02:54 PM

Partners in a 1v3, clearly going to lose, they charge in to take the execute, I 5>Haste>100b. They die before human reaction time could have even kicked in.

Sounds fair.

This isn't a unique thing either, this is actually how one of my tourney teams ran. Wandering warrior waited for someone to be downed, charges>hasted 100b kills 90% of people before they realize it.

and as for the "put at a severe disadvantage" his 100b does 16k damage on a guardian. I've only seen 1-2 people fail to be insta-killed. Sad thing is...he's not even squishy with more health AND armor than our tank-built elementalist. This is to say nothing of Rifle's burst ability. Can hide around a corner 1000 away and pop off a 10-13k crit, which most people will never see coming.

And how do you dodge these 6-12k+ backstabs? Pistol whips you can't even see due to stealth?

#33 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:20 PM

View PostAltma951, on 20 September 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

Partners in a 1v3, clearly going to lose, they charge in to take the execute, I 5>Haste>100b. They die before human reaction time could have even kicked in.

Sounds fair.

This isn't a unique thing either, this is actually how one of my tourney teams ran. Wandering warrior waited for someone to be downed, charges>hasted 100b kills 90% of people before they realize it.

and as for the "put at a severe disadvantage" his 100b does 16k damage on a guardian. I've only seen 1-2 people fail to be insta-killed. Sad thing is...he's not even squishy with more health AND armor than our tank-built elementalist. This is to say nothing of Rifle's burst ability. Can hide around a corner 1000 away and pop off a 10-13k crit, which most people will never see coming.

And how do you dodge these 6-12k+ backstabs? Pistol whips you can't even see due to stealth?

Was was riding the lightning to a warrior. He simply 100bladed me before my character came out of the lightning animation. There was simply nothing I could have done besides letting him charge me and 100blade me at another point.

#34 Mekkakat

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:48 PM

I agree with the OP 110%.

There simply isn't enough escape/dodge/blind to stop the train of damage that some classes can dish out. The Necro and Ele class have almost no burst at all, and the Engi isn't far behind without some super long cooldown glass build.

Fact is, skills like 100b or Heartseeker are gib moves. Near-OHK's that can basically be spammed. Unless you have godly reflexes and prediction skills, they WILL get you. There's no enemy skill warm-up bar, so you can't even see it coming.. you just have to react on impact, or play a perpetual keep-away game.

At that point.. you're just playing THIER game. That's not fun, especially when 80% of sPvP is dominated by Warriors, Mesmers and Thieves.

View PostAltma951, on 20 September 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

\ Can hide around a corner 1000 away and pop off a 10-13k crit, which most people will never see coming.

And how do you dodge these 6-12k+ backstabs? Pistol whips you can't even see due to stealth?

This x1,000,000

I keep seeing all these "pros" laugh at and mock other players with

LRN2PLYNOOB LOLO1!!1!

I'd *love* to fight any of them 1v1 with a Thief or Warrior. You can't kill what you can't even see coming. People get so arrogant, and it's just laughable. A single backstab can hit for 14k+ from a target that wasn't even in existence two seconds before that... then spam you down with a skill hitting for 5-8k a stab... with haste... while you're frozen like a stone.

COOL.

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#35 Ebonvine

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:56 PM

View PostMekkakat, on 20 September 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

There's no enemy skill warm-up bar, so you can't even see it coming.

This is a really good point. Imagine if Churning Earth had no cast time. The really sad part is even then, it's not going to blast even 50% of someone's health away.

How would it change if the warrior had to channel for 1.5 seconds before 100b started?

#36 Ragnadaam

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:02 PM

HB is pretty stupid, but overall I don't think it is THAT bad, because it is reliant on them having quickness AND you not moving in order for it to display its full stupidity.

Pistol Whip is pants on head stupid and needs to be nerfed, there's no argument.

Blurred Frenzy is fine. Mesmer's are largely fine, people just don't like fighting them because they're frustrating.

#37 Mekkakat

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 11:42 PM

View PostRagnadaam, on 20 September 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

HB is pretty stupid, but overall I don't think it is THAT bad, because it is reliant on them having quickness AND you not moving in order for it to display its full stupidity.

Pistol Whip is pants on head stupid and needs to be nerfed, there's no argument.

Blurred Frenzy is fine. Mesmer's are largely fine, people just don't like fighting them because they're frustrating.

Blurred is more than fine. It's not even THAT much damage, fully specced out. Nothing like 100b. Most people hate Mesmers because of stealth, teleports, and mad Phantasm damage.

100b sucks, even without Frenzy because of Bolas or knockdown (no escape sans stun breaker on immob). It's still not ULTRA bad... yet lol.

Eff pistol whip.

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#38 lmaonade

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 02:13 AM

I disagree, I think Hundred Blades is the lesser of those "dodge or die" evils because it has a 4 second channel time, so you don't even need to use a dodge roll to avoid it unless he uses a KD/stun + frenzy.

If you dodge bolas or bull's charge you won't need your dodge roll again until those come up, by the time which your endurance will be fully filled.

Mesmers suffer the same sort of problem but have a lower channel time and a huge invulnerability perk on it.

Thiefs pistol whip is a complete skill, though on the wrong character as they are often very squishy (though it won't matter as much if you're talking 1 vs 1 wise)

In other words, they're all skills that have simple counters, even more so when planned ahead of time.

#39 Mekkakat

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 12:52 PM

View Postlmaonade, on 21 September 2012 - 02:13 AM, said:

I disagree, I think Hundred Blades is the lesser of those "dodge or die" evils because it has a 4 second channel time, so you don't even need to use a dodge roll to avoid it unless he uses a KD/stun + frenzy.

If you dodge bolas or bull's charge you won't need your dodge roll again until those come up, by the time which your endurance will be fully filled.

Mesmers suffer the same sort of problem but have a lower channel time and a huge invulnerability perk on it.

Thiefs pistol whip is a complete skill, though on the wrong character as they are often very squishy (though it won't matter as much if you're talking 1 vs 1 wise)

In other words, they're all skills that have simple counters, even more so when planned ahead of time.

Warrior is the best CC class in the game with KD, Stun and Immob. (cripple too) If you're good enough to see a Bola coming... a ranged attack that can catch you from any camera angle at any time.. then immediately double-dodge a Bulls Charge while kiting EVERY TIME... why are you even wasting your time playing this game. You should be a fighter pilot or something.

It only takes ONE KD (followed by 100b) to kill 70% of the professions in this game... clean. No Frenzy or anything.

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#40 buddhist21

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 01:34 PM

I know that those abilities do a lot of damage and I know that you should dodge them. But to be honest, if they really are killing you from 100 to 0 with 1 skill then you really should look at your spec, I don't think you have enough toughness/vitality.

I play all the professions you mentioned and I don't 100-0 someone with 1 skill and even when I'm the receiving end of it, I have never been instagibbed by a Thiefs pistol whip or a Mesmers Blurred Frenzy, can't speak for HB as if you actually stay there for the full duration then imo you deserve to die.

#41 Altma951

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 03:01 PM

View Postbuddhist21, on 21 September 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

I know that those abilities do a lot of damage and I know that you should dodge them. But to be honest, if they really are killing you from 100 to 0 with 1 skill then you really should look at your spec, I don't think you have enough toughness/vitality.

I play all the professions you mentioned and I don't 100-0 someone with 1 skill and even when I'm the receiving end of it, I have never been instagibbed by a Thiefs pistol whip or a Mesmers Blurred Frenzy, can't speak for HB as if you actually stay there for the full duration then imo you deserve to die.

Full tank spec Elementalist. Toughness/Vitality/Power necklace, Stone & Water support build. ~21k. 100b hits me for ~18,000-19,000 damage of my ~21k hp. This happens in roughly .7 seconds, or less. Couple this with any group stealth - he can literally kill me before I could possibly see him.

Same elementalist vs Thief. 11-12k Backstab+possibly an additional 2-3k from Lightning Strike. I'm now under 50% hp, and I can't move without popping a CD - which even if I pop he can just stealth and do it again.

Same Elementalist vs Pistol Whip Thief. Hasted Pistol whip - if I don't CD here I die. Period. Even with human reaction time limits I'll be at ~70% hp at most. Now he has Thieves Guild, I'm pretty much SoL with no possible way to win. Second I come out Devourer's Venom+Scorpion wire+Thieves guild spamming Scorpion Wire, Unload, and Blind so I can't even counter.

Now, Let's look inversely at a Squishy Scepter/Dagger Elementalist.

Yay, we found someone who's AFK - let's try to burst them down.
Signet of Fire(1 utility)+100% crit chance for 5 skills(2 utilities)+Signet of Earth(3 utilities) open with Dragon's Tooth(~5-7k)>Phoenix(~9k)>Fire Grab(~6k) (These numbers are assuming a squishy target). So, We have a target who didn't pop any cds, Didn't dodge at all(keep in mind, Thieves can dodge this while rooted), and doesn't auto-clear conditions(not ranger, guardian, nor elementalist), and can't escape with a normal spell(Mesmer, Thief), and we've done a grand total of 22k damage on cloth armor with 0 toughness.

Ya got that? ~5 seconds takes 22k damage assuming your enemies braindead, that every single class has a counter to. Ranger can auto-clear conditions, as well as Longbow Interrupt. Thief can just death Blossom to avoid ALL damage(How'd the thief even get caught in this? lol), Engi has a lot of ways to counter this(stun shield, thumper turret utility belt, Rifle Knockback, etc) , Mesmer can just Staff 2 out of it, Guardian can auto-clear this debuff, as can Elementalist, Necro can Death shroud to take 0 damage(MAYBE a 1k from phoenix return hit), Warrior can shield stance.

This isn't even counting utility uses, nor is this assuming some weird build - All necros have death shroud, most 2h sword warriors go shield offhand on swap, Almost all rangers bring the utility to clear conditions, Most thieves are double dagger - though sword+pistol could be susceptable to this, they could always use a utility if they were, 90% of engis have either Shield or Rifle, I've yet to see a mesmer who doesn't have staff on swap(or even main sometimes), but if they somehow didn't...they can swap to Sword and Blurred Frenzy invulnerability. Ele can Focus Earth Offhand or Air focus offhand(2 secodn knockdown), All necros have Death shroud.

This is also a ~45 second CD (6 second on dtooth, 16 second on phoenix, and 45 sec on fire grab)... Compare this to Warrior who have 3 ways to get haste, a few stuns and knockdowns, etc...

This is just 1 class. Balance in this game is awful. The tankiest class does the most damage, the squishiest class does the least - wtf kinda logic does that make? A rifle warrior does more ranged damage while still haveing ~24k hp in glass cannon build, than an elementalist.

#42 Kelarmz

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 03:26 PM

Eles and necros are trash tier, not sure what you're really arguing.  However, you'll never do as much damage as a warrior or thief even assuming a balanced game because eles have other strengths in the forms of utility, mobility, aoe, etc.

#43 Altma951

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 05:58 PM

View PostKelarmz, on 21 September 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

Eles and necros are trash tier, not sure what you're really arguing.  However, you'll never do as much damage as a warrior or thief even assuming a balanced game because eles have other strengths in the forms of utility, mobility, aoe, etc.

I'm just showing the Extremes, but it works for pretty much every non-mesmer/thief/warrior.

#44 Mekkakat

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 07:57 PM

View PostKelarmz, on 21 September 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

Eles and necros are trash tier, not sure what you're really arguing.  However, you'll never do as much damage as a warrior or thief even assuming a balanced game because eles have other strengths in the forms of utility, mobility, aoe, etc.

Then the game would never be balanced because every class already has this.

The problem is that Eles and Necros don't have damage. They have just about everything BUT damage. In a game with no roles and no real cross-support, you need damage if you want to win a fight. You can't 1v1 a guy with heals, breakers, IMS, CC, and mad damage and win unless you just have superior skills.. without damage. I've yet to lose to an Ele, and I've lost maybe twice to Necros (as an Engi), and that was from me literally being stupid, playing silly/fun builds.

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#45 lmaonade

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 04:39 AM

View PostMekkakat, on 21 September 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

Warrior is the best CC class in the game with KD, Stun and Immob. (cripple too) If you're good enough to see a Bola coming... a ranged attack that can catch you from any camera angle at any time.. then immediately double-dodge a Bulls Charge while kiting EVERY TIME... why are you even wasting your time playing this game. You should be a fighter pilot or something.

It only takes ONE KD (followed by 100b) to kill 70% of the professions in this game... clean. No Frenzy or anything.

Which KD has a 4 second effect? because i would like to find it, 100 blades cannot be completed under the currently best warrior KD skill, bull's charge, because it only knocks down for 2 seconds, if a warrior ever wants to hit a full 100 blades, he would either have to use frenzy, use bolas instead or hope the enemy is bad.

Bolas, for one, is a moving projectile, if you can't dodge those you haven't played against ranged professions very much, and Bull's Charge has a very obvious animation, though is quite fast. In other words, if you've PvP regularly you should have no problem dodging these moves in a 1 vs 1, groups are a different story.

And if a warrior is packing both bolas and bull's, and has enough power and crit damage to take down people in less than 1 full 100 blades, then he clearly lacking condition removals and defense in general, and as an Engineer player, I find those very easy to kill.

Not saying Warrior is underpowered or weak, my most played character is a warrior and I appreciate its power, but it's not as powerful or as faceroll as people make it out to be, pure damage warriors melt and balanced warriors play like other balanced classes.

Edited by lmaonade, 22 September 2012 - 04:41 AM.


#46 Sequel

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 10:34 AM

i dont really understand the big deal about 100b burst, the skill itself is a noob killer and trash in upper tournament level gameplay. in order to actually use it effectively you need frenzy, and bolas or bulls charge. warriors should be running balanced stance since it allows you to stick on to your target for burst and not be cc'd. and you already wasted 2 ultility skills and risk taking 50% extra damage for the sake of 10k damage to a brain dead player. i have never seen since bwe's a 100b warrior hitting over 13k in a full cycle unless he built pure glass cannon and so did his target. after his burst warriors are easy prey cuz theyre most likely running axe/shield and theres no moblity after they swap weapon sets.

#47 Mekkakat

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 12:59 PM

View Postlmaonade, on 22 September 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

Which KD has a 4 second effect? because i would like to find it, 100 blades cannot be completed under the currently best warrior KD skill, bull's charge, because it only knocks down for 2 seconds, if a warrior ever wants to hit a full 100 blades, he would either have to use frenzy, use bolas instead or hope the enemy is bad.

Bolas, for one, is a moving projectile, if you can't dodge those you haven't played against ranged professions very much, and Bull's Charge has a very obvious animation, though is quite fast. In other words, if you've PvP regularly you should have no problem dodging these moves in a 1 vs 1, groups are a different story.

And if a warrior is packing both bolas and bull's, and has enough power and crit damage to take down people in less than 1 full 100 blades, then he clearly lacking condition removals and defense in general, and as an Engineer player, I find those very easy to kill.

Not saying Warrior is underpowered or weak, my most played character is a warrior and I appreciate its power, but it's not as powerful or as faceroll as people make it out to be, pure damage warriors melt and balanced warriors play like other balanced classes.

.. too bad this is a team game and 1v1's aren't that often. Bolas and Bull's can come out of nowhere very quickly, and Frenzy makes 100b a very fast skill. I'm also not saying Warriors are "broken" or anything. I was defending them from a poster earlier saying that Warriors had no CC.

View PostSequel, on 22 September 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

i dont really understand the big deal about 100b burst, the skill itself is a noob killer and trash in upper tournament level gameplay. in order to actually use it effectively you need frenzy, and bolas or bulls charge. warriors should be running balanced stance since it allows you to stick on to your target for burst and not be cc'd. and you already wasted 2 ultility skills and risk taking 50% extra damage for the sake of 10k damage to a brain dead player. i have never seen since bwe's a 100b warrior hitting over 13k in a full cycle unless he built pure glass cannon and so did his target. after his burst warriors are easy prey cuz theyre most likely running axe/shield and theres no moblity after they swap weapon sets.

idk what Warriors you fight man lol. Most toss up Charge and stay on you like white on rice. Also, Frenzy and Bull's Strike are two of, if not the best/most important utility skills in the game for Warrior. Balanced Stance would probably be somewhere next on that list, but to say you're "wasting" 2 spots..

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#48 Sequel

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:57 PM

View PostMekkakat, on 22 September 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

.. too bad this is a team game and 1v1's aren't that often. Bolas and Bull's can come out of nowhere very quickly, and Frenzy makes 100b a very fast skill. I'm also not saying Warriors are "broken" or anything. I was defending them from a poster earlier saying that Warriors had no CC.



idk what Warriors you fight man lol. Most toss up Charge and stay on you like white on rice. Also, Frenzy and Bull's Strike are two of, if not the best/most important utility skills in the game for Warrior. Balanced Stance would probably be somewhere next on that list, but to say you're "wasting" 2 spots..

i guess wasting would be the wrong word to say, but the 100b burst build limits you to only 1 free utility slot still (which should be placed with balanced stance). warriors i fight are just the ones i see in tourneys with my team, not seein many warriors in the third round lately but for forest of niflehel warriors have not killed any of us in a 100b burst because its too predictable and the times we get caught we have enough toughness to just roll out of it and win the fight after. as for "stayin on you like white on rice" i am consitantly crippled immobolized and or chilled so charge and whirlwind will barely get you to your target assuming they kite correctly.

#49 henker

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 01:56 AM

I find it funny when people defend all those insta gib bullshit moves

People claiming warriors give up too much for 100b are full of crap. Sorry about the language but it's true. A full "glass cannon" warrior has 22k hp (with berzerker amulet) 2250 armor, usually runs with an elite that gives them 30s of swiftness/fury/might on 60s cooldown, usually runs with endure pain (5s invulnerability) and usually runs with axe/shield giving them another 3 secs of almost invulnerability (dots still do damage), another stun, another move that will take a big chunk of your hp (eviscerate crits for up to 8k on my build)

How is this glass cannon? What is he giving up to do more damage than any other class in a very short period of time? What other class can have 3k attack, 2.25k armor, 47% crit chance, 68% crit damage, 22k hp, 5s invul + 3s almost invul. 30s of swiftness/fury/might?
The only 2 classes that come close to that amount of burst are thieves and mesmers.


And 100b is useless without bullscharge/bolas? It's an awesome skill when you are in a point with a lot of people, when you wanna finish that annoying thief, when you wanna destroy a trebuchet, a door or kill anyone stunned/immobilized by your team or quickly finish someone trying to rezz a buddy.


Thieves are on the same boat. Pistolwhip thieves have access to a teleport, stealth, quickness... You broke out of the stun and started attacking the thief? oh great he just teleported back and/or stealthed and will start again soon.

#50 Sequel

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:34 AM

View Posthenker, on 23 September 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

I find it funny when people defend all those insta gib bullshit moves

People claiming warriors give up too much for 100b are full of crap. Sorry about the language but it's true. A full "glass cannon" warrior has 22k hp (with berzerker amulet) 2250 armor, usually runs with an elite that gives them 30s of swiftness/fury/might on 60s cooldown, usually runs with endure pain (5s invulnerability) and usually runs with axe/shield giving them another 3 secs of almost invulnerability (dots still do damage), another stun, another move that will take a big chunk of your hp (eviscerate crits for up to 8k on my build)

How is this glass cannon? What is he giving up to do more damage than any other class in a very short period of time? What other class can have 3k attack, 2.25k armor, 47% crit chance, 68% crit damage, 22k hp, 5s invul + 3s almost invul. 30s of swiftness/fury/might?
The only 2 classes that come close to that amount of burst are thieves and mesmers.


And 100b is useless without bullscharge/bolas? It's an awesome skill when you are in a point with a lot of people, when you wanna finish that annoying thief, when you wanna destroy a trebuchet, a door or kill anyone stunned/immobilized by your team or quickly finish someone trying to rezz a buddy.


Thieves are on the same boat. Pistolwhip thieves have access to a teleport, stealth, quickness... You broke out of the stun and started attacking the thief? oh great he just teleported back and/or stealthed and will start again soon.

the problem is you then, a non-glass cannon warrior will be unable to kill you fast enough with his burst, and a full glass cannon warrior will die easy. armor is barely an arguement since the difference is 300 points. if he runs endure pain, then cc him easy. dont blow your huge moves on him without tryin to bait out the shield block, hes not gonna hit you back cuz hes stuck shield blocking. and eviscerate has a huge obvious animation on it, not only that but the distance he can move with all his skills are reduced with cripple or chill. your building glass cannon if you are gettin hit with 8k eviscerates. and for your arguments about 100b being used for different purposes auto attacks can put out near the same amount of damage without incurring a cd, its a highrisk high reward skill so if you land a full duration why shouldnt you be rewarded.

all i see you do is complain and not figure things out, you did some research but did you even try to play the class in tourneys against decent teams. and for the theif example you proposed, if he used his teleport there goes his stun break, jump on him while its on cd, great to know what his skills do.stealth? swing your weapon anyways cuz itl still hit him if you made contact, hes only going to be invis for 3 sec unless he shadow refuged in that case hes gonna stay invis for 10 if he stays in the circle, which is guaranteed youll hit him then.

#51 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:59 AM

View PostSequel, on 24 September 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

the problem is you then, a non-glass cannon warrior will be unable to kill you fast enough with his burst, and a full glass cannon warrior will die easy. armor is barely an arguement since the difference is 300 points. if he runs endure pain, then cc him easy. dont blow your huge moves on him without tryin to bait out the shield block, hes not gonna hit you back cuz hes stuck shield blocking. and eviscerate has a huge obvious animation on it, not only that but the distance he can move with all his skills are reduced with cripple or chill. your building glass cannon if you are gettin hit with 8k eviscerates. and for your arguments about 100b being used for different purposes auto attacks can put out near the same amount of damage without incurring a cd, its a highrisk high reward skill so if you land a full duration why shouldnt you be rewarded.

all i see you do is complain and not figure things out, you did some research but did you even try to play the class in tourneys against decent teams. and for the theif example you proposed, if he used his teleport there goes his stun break, jump on him while its on cd, great to know what his skills do.stealth? swing your weapon anyways cuz itl still hit him if you made contact, hes only going to be invis for 3 sec unless he shadow refuged in that case hes gonna stay invis for 10 if he stays in the circle, which is guaranteed youll hit him then.

As another poster said, this is a teamgame, and when fighting on a point 3v3 for example, a thief/warrior can come out of nowhere and kill you within 2 seconds. You won't see him coming and you won't have a real chance to react. That's why Pistol Whip/Backstab/100b is so overpowered. 1v1 you can handle them with defense, dodge, etc. But no other class can kill you that fast when they catch you unaware because you were fighting someone else with your teammates. If any other class joins a fight you have a chance to use your defense, try to get away, use an elite, etc. With warriors/thieves, you just die before you can react to the new challanger. And that's the problem.

#52 Thoran23

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:31 PM

View PostWabbit, on 19 September 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

You don't prolly expect that you won't die to a burst combo?

Many skills rely on other skills (Mostly some CC)
for example warrior's 100b rely mostly on stun or immobilize. even when 100b has 8 seconds cooldown, when pulled out alone, it's pretty useless. You need something to make enemy stay still. Mostly warriors use bull's charge that has 40second cooldown.

back in my old days we  used teamwork for that.
But time goes on and the young people of today are unable to work in a team, unable to socialise and for that reason you have to add the solo component to games if you want to have suceess. if i play with other people i can instantly point out the younger people and WoW victims. I regret not rolling with a daoc guild here.

#53 Louis8k8

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:36 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 24 September 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

As another poster said, this is a teamgame, and when fighting on a point 3v3 for example, a thief/warrior can come out of nowhere and kill you within 2 seconds. You won't see him coming and you won't have a real chance to react. That's why Pistol Whip/Backstab/100b is so overpowered. 1v1 you can handle them with defense, dodge, etc. But no other class can kill you that fast when they catch you unaware because you were fighting someone else with your teammates. If any other class joins a fight you have a chance to use your defense, try to get away, use an elite, etc. With warriors/thieves, you just die before you can react to the new challanger. And that's the problem.
The same reason why I argue glass ele-s are better than defesnsive eles (from tPvP) in pub 8v8. If you don't target them when they show up, they really hurt.

Depending on class, frustrations might be different. 100 blade isn't my concern (necro) because of Death Shroud. Thieves are much more of dodge-or-die as I can't see what they're doing when they're stealthed most of the time, and their attacks aren't 3~5 seconds long like 100b. I certainly don't like a rock-paper-scissor class hard-counter design where you get a cycle of which class beats which class. Rather than balance, it's simply not fun to play a game where it's always all or nothing.

Edited by Louis8k8, 24 September 2012 - 12:36 PM.


#54 Thoran23

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:47 PM

View PostSequel, on 24 September 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

balbla biased bla

funny how every time someone have to adress this.
Heavy armor + this high amount of vitality is a huge advantage here over all other professions.
If some ele wants this extra armor and HP he has to spec/equip full defense. Its way too easy as warrior to maintain this ridicoulus damage while having a extrem good defense AND movement.

#55 Thoran23

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:02 PM

View PostAltma951, on 21 September 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Now, Let's look inversely at a Squishy Scepter/Dagger Elementalist.

Yay, we found someone who's AFK - let's try to burst them down.
Signet of Fire(1 utility)+100% crit chance for 5 skills(2 utilities)+Signet of Earth(3 utilities) open with Dragon's Tooth(~5-7k)>Phoenix(~9k)>Fire Grab(~6k) (These numbers are assuming a squishy target). So, We have a target who didn't pop any cds, Didn't dodge at all(keep in mind, Thieves can dodge this while rooted), and doesn't auto-clear conditions(not ranger, guardian, nor elementalist), and can't escape with a normal spell(Mesmer, Thief), and we've done a grand total of 22k damage on cloth armor with 0 toughness.


It could be worse, he could be an afk Warrior! with endure pain at 25% life, embrace the pain + adrenal health, heal signet, turtle defense and dolyak signet :P

Funny that such a warrior still would outdamage your said glass ele with just autoattacks.

#56 Garethh

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:10 PM

So much complaining ><
I actually think warriors are underpowered and pistolwhip thieves are just bad.
Any stability and the thief just flounders, a good dodge roll and the thief flounders, a single stun break and the thief flounders... spike dps warriors have litte->no cleansing and usually no stability... they can be played like a fidle, you see the animaiton for frenzy... immobilize... then /laugh for the 2 seconds before you dodge roll for the remaining 2...

They tend to be horrible specs that relly on the enemy screwing up or being badly specced to succede.

View PostThoran23, on 24 September 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

Funny that such a warrior still would outdamage your said glass ele with just autoattacks.
You realize that he just typed out 22k dmg in a roughly 1~ second period...
Damn I guess every defensive specced warrior I've ever seen is doing something terribly, terribly wrong.

Edited by Garethh, 24 September 2012 - 08:08 PM.


#57 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:21 PM

View PostGarethh, on 24 September 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:


You realize that he just typed out 22k dmg in a roughly 1~ second period...
Damn I guess every defensive specced warrior I've ever seen is doing something terribly, terribly wrong.

"roughly 1 second?" LOL don't kid yourself. Dragon's tooth alone needs ~3 seconds, phoenix needs ~2 depending on distance.

#58 Garethh

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:35 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 24 September 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

"roughly 1 second?" LOL don't kid yourself. Dragon's tooth alone needs ~3 seconds, phoenix needs ~2 depending on distance.
soo, if you cast dragon's tooth, then pheonix, and procede to fire grab right after... all the dmg would hit over, what would you say? roughly a second?

Srry wasn't trying to confuse you... lol, just say how quickly the spike actually is over.
Like with the 100blades spike people never count the time it takes to cast frenzy and bull's charge, possibly signet of rage beforehand to boot...

Edited by Garethh, 24 September 2012 - 08:38 PM.


#59 Drekor

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:53 PM

View PostGarethh, on 24 September 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

soo, if you cast dragon's tooth, then pheonix, and procede to fire grab right after... all the dmg would hit over, what would you say? roughly a second?

Srry wasn't trying to confuse you... lol, just say how quickly the spike actually is over.
Like with the 100blades spike people never count the time it takes to cast frenzy and bull's charge, possibly signet of rage beforehand to boot...
It's worth pointing out SoF is a burn and really shouldn't be added into a "burst" combo not to mention you'll be about 7k HP and 400 armor short of a warrior. There's really no comparison the elementalist burst is not nearly as easy to pull off and the elementalist is a true glass cannon.

#60 Garethh

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:06 PM

View PostDrekor, on 24 September 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

It's worth pointing out SoF is a burn and really shouldn't be added into a "burst" combo not to mention you'll be about 7k HP and 400 armor short of a warrior. There's really no comparison the elementalist burst is not nearly as easy to pull off and the elementalist is a true glass cannon.
Warriors tend to be much, much less mobile and have less built in utility.
I'm not saying d/d for ele's is a great spec atm (it probably is in need of love) but just looking at raw life and armor, maybe spike dmg isn't really a good take on the situation...
Like at all...

Warriors have hell landing their spike on good players and typically can be manhandled with conditions, eles have an instant cast knockback (which you can land a dragon's tooth and pheonix in the time of?), a 1~ s cast aoe knockdown, a 2~ second immobilize, 1s stun to anyone hitting them in melee range for 5s, typically far better condition removal...
All without even grabbing a utility...

Even right now, i'd bet on a dps ele landing his spike, or even surviving a spike far before a dps warrior, but that's just me.
(the class is squishy if you can break its rhythm or keep consistently hitting it, it has many long CDs and its spike does tend to be a little lackluster in comparison, yeah, are the problems with the spec)

Edited by Garethh, 24 September 2012 - 11:17 PM.






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