69 replies to this topic

[Drekor]

Garethh, on 24 September 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Warriors tend to be much, much less mobile and have less built in utility.
I'm not saying d/d for ele's is a great spec atm (it probably is in need of love) but just looking at raw life and armor, maybe spike dmg isn't really a good take on the situation...
Like at all...

Warriors have hell landing their spike on good players and typically can be manhandled with conditions, eles have an instant cast knockback, a 1~ s cast aoe knockdown, a 2~ second immobilize, stun anyone hitting them in melee range for 5s, typically far better condition removal...
All without even grabbing a utility...

Even right now, i'd bet on a dps ele landing his spike, or even surviving a spike far before a dps warrior, but that's just me.

Warrior has comparable mobility to elementalist with perma swiftness and GS charges. I don't disagree that warrior burst can be dealt with by good players however the issue that comes up that it's a noob stomp build(along with thieves). Low level pvp is completely overrun with these builds and it causes many people who could develop into better players to instead quit and that's not healthy for the game. If you completely neutered the build so hard that it wasn't viable at all(Smiter's boon from GW1 or Evelynn from LoL as examples) it would be less toxic at least until they can fix it properly but leaving it as is won't help anything.

It would be great if new players would stick with it and learn how to counter it, because it's frankly not that difficult but I just don't see that ever happening.

[Shatteredz]

Drekor, on 24 September 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Warrior has comparable mobility to elementalist with perma swiftness and GS charges. I don't disagree that warrior burst can be dealt with by good players however the issue that comes up that it's a noob stomp build(along with thieves). Low level pvp is completely overrun with these builds and it causes many people who could develop into better players to instead quit and that's not healthy for the game. If you completely neutered the build so hard that it wasn't viable at all(Smiter's boon from GW1 or Evelynn from LoL as examples) it would be less toxic at least until they can fix it properly but leaving it as is won't help anything.

It would be great if new players would stick with it and learn how to counter it, because it's frankly not that difficult but I just don't see that ever happening.

Just wait a few weeks. Currently 90% of the pvp playerbase is utter crap, and because of that the learning proces aint very fast for that 90% as well. In a few weeks most people will get the very basics of pvp in GW2(knowing what skills to dodge, knowing roughly what every class can do, building a good skill-build/traits/stat setup.)

Also, countering those classes aint harder. Not at all, with most builds. The problem is that most of the builds are fairly easy to play and are still somewhat decent if you dont know what you are doing(for thief, mesmer and warrior that is). Again this is something that will probably vanish in the comming few weeks/months when good guides/builds get available for a large part of the comunity, along with more game knowledge.

[AetherMcLoud]

Shatteredz, on 25 September 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

Also, countering those classes aint harder. Not at all, with most builds. The problem is that most of the builds are fairly easy to play and are still somewhat decent if you dont know what you are doing(for thief, mesmer and warrior that is). Again this is something that will probably vanish in the comming few weeks/months when good guides/builds get available for a large part of the comunity, along with more game knowledge.

Again, you only think about 1vs1 which rarely happens in pvp. Let's say you fight 2vs2 on a contested point. The fight is balanced with each of you and your enemies using cooldowns, CC, etc. Out of nowhere comes a thief and haste-pistolwhips you to death in 2 seconds flat. Or a warrior charges and 100blades you in 2 seconds into oblivion.

There is simply no way you could see that coming, and react with a dodge or cooldown because you probably already have both on cooldown. With every other class you could react to them joining the fight by using an elite, etc. But with haste-burst warriors and thieves you simply have no time to react when they join the fight and you're dead before you realize they even joined the teamfight.

And that's a major problem. No other classes can kill unaware people (not because they are socalled "bads" but because they are fighting with another player) as fast as warriors and thieves. And that simply isn't good for pvp as the current class balance in sPVP shows (lol 90% thieves/mesmers/warriors).

P.S. Before anyone says "it's 3vs2 of course you'll die" the same example still holds if it's 2 of you vs 1 tanky point defender when a thief/warrior suddenly joins in.

Edited by AetherMcLoud, 25 September 2012 - 08:07 AM.

[Jonno621]

If you're getting 1-shotted by a warrior with 25k - obviously not a glass cannon - then you may want to revise your build. If a warrior has around 18k, then sure. They're equally as squishy. Every class has its niche, I personally believe.

[Falhawk]

Seriously, how can you include mesmer's Blurred Frenzy into this comparison. The highest damage you could get from this skill is perhaps 3-4000 k on a squishy IF the mesmer is running a full glass cannon build and IF they are so dumb as to stand and take the full 2 seconds punishment. What may happen is that the mesmer will coordinate the frenzy with a shatter or something similar but as a sole attack, blurred frenzy does not hit very hard and nowhere close to the damage that you could pull of with pistol whip, hearkseeker og 100b.

Mesmer is a scholar and has a very low base armor. Going into melee as a mesmer is difficult and without any active defence it would mean instant death to go toe to toe with a warrior, for example. That's why the skill includes invul.

[Garethh]

AetherMcLoud, on 25 September 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

Out of nowhere comes a thief and haste-pistolwhips you to death in 2 seconds flat. Or a warrior charges and 100blades you in 2 seconds into oblivion.... no way you could see that coming, and react with a dodge or cooldown because you probably already have both on cooldown....

That's the difference between good and bad players...
At some point you might realize warriors and thieves don't actually pop out of nowhere...

If you always have every 'oh shit' button on CD and 0 endurance threw out every fight.. yeah you have more issues than just warriors/thieves...

Edited by Garethh, 25 September 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[AetherMcLoud]

Garethh, on 25 September 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

That's the difference between good and bad players...
At some point you might realize warriors and thieves don't actually pop out of nowhere...

If you always have every 'oh shit' button on CD and 0 endurance threw out every fight.. yeah you have more issues than just warriors/thieves...

There is simply noway to see a thief coming that unstealthed directly behing you with a huge backstab crit and then pistolwhips you. Don't fool yourself.

[Skyro]

AetherMcLoud, on 25 September 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

There is simply noway to see a thief coming that unstealthed directly behing you with a huge backstab crit and then pistolwhips you. Don't fool yourself.

All classes have multiple escape/defensive options however. If you're caught with your pants down with nothing left... that's your own fault.

I'll tell you the real issue here that is flying by over everybody's heads. "Balance" in the OP's (and pretty much the majority of the community's) head is completely and 100% driven by 1v1, and this 100% wrong. Yes, 1v1s happen, quite often in fact, especially in the cesspool that is PUG 8v8s where everybody is running around like chickens with their heads cut off with no coordination, but that doesn't mean you should balance around 1v1.

Some classes will excel in 1v1, that is ok from a balance standpoint. 1v1 is a role, a piece, in the entire structure of balance. I guarantee you top tPvP teams will not be running glass cannon thieves and HB warriors up the wazoo because good players can and will avoid these bursts the majority of the time, and even when they do bursted down in a group situation a coordinated team will get that player up so fast because the other team is really playing 4v5 because these glass cannon builds are pretty useless outside of their bursts. People don't realize that the rez/down system in this game actually is a significant deterrant to glass cannon burst builds because people can get rez'ed so quickly, but of course that doesn't happen in PUG 8vs.

[AetherMcLoud]

Skyro, on 25 September 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

All classes have multiple escape/defensive options however. If you're caught with your pants down with nothing left... that's your own fault.

I'll tell you the real issue here that is flying by over everybody's heads. "Balance" in the OP's (and pretty much the majority of the community's) head is completely and 100% driven by 1v1, and this 100% wrong. Yes, 1v1s happen, quite often in fact, especially in the cesspool that is PUG 8v8s where everybody is running around like chickens with their heads cut off with no coordination, but that doesn't mean you should balance around 1v1.

Some classes will excel in 1v1, that is ok from a balance standpoint. 1v1 is a role, a piece, in the entire structure of balance. I guarantee you top tPvP teams will not be running glass cannon thieves and HB warriors up the wazoo because good players can and will avoid these bursts the majority of the time, and even when they do bursted down in a group situation a coordinated team will get that player up so fast because the other team is really playing 4v5 because these glass cannon builds are pretty useless outside of their bursts. People don't realize that the rez/down system in this game actually is a significant deterrant to glass cannon burst builds because people can get rez'ed so quickly, but of course that doesn't happen in PUG 8vs.

I'll tell you what your fallacy is: You think one should balance around some top percent of tournament players. This is simply wrong. You need to balance around your biggest userbase, which believe it or not, are casuals (not bads, but simply people who don't have the time/schedule/ability to use voicechat to do tourneys). Otherwise you will use a massive amount of your userbase. sPVP is currently dominated without a doubt by thieves, mesmers, warriors and to a lesser extend guardians. Unless ANet does something about that pretty fast they will lose alot of their userbase.

[Skyro]

AetherMcLoud, on 25 September 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

I'll tell you what your fallacy is: You think one should balance around some top percent of tournament players. This is simply wrong. You need to balance around your biggest userbase, which believe it or not, are casuals (not bads, but simply people who don't have the time/schedule/ability to use voicechat to do tourneys). Otherwise you will use a massive amount of your userbase. sPVP is currently dominated without a doubt by thieves, mesmers, warriors and to a lesser extend guardians. Unless ANet does something about that pretty fast they will lose alot of their userbase.

I see this arguement a lot and I'll tell you why it doesn't play out like that in reality, IF you have the proper systems in place (explained below). Assume the game is 100% balanced at the top level of play (it's not of course, but for the sake of arguement). First, people will watch/see them and see that the game is, in fact, balanced, which will significantly reduce random baddie complaints. Second, these players will then try to emulate these top teams and the "metagame" will evolve from there, which will improve coordination and reduce the effectiveness of the glut of 1v1 builds.

The problem right now is currently is that ANet does not have the proper systems in place. In fact, they pretty much have no system in place. They have no ranking/ladder system and no spectator mode, so not only are good teams not being matched up with other good teams, even when they do nobody can watch it. Thus no "metagame" develops, and thus it's a free-for-all of 1v1 builds as everybody doesn't know what they are supposed to be doing.

ANet also put in other completely illogical systems in place. The PUG sPvP is 8v8, but tPvP is 5v5? PUG sPvP has an extra map? Madness.

ANet must do 3 things before PvP really takes off and we can really start to have a serious discussion on balance. Ladder/ranking system, spectator mode, and custom servers. Custom servers are needed so top teams can practice certain maps and against certain teams/compositions.